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Old 02-08-2011, 03:07 PM   #31
retiredqwest
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This message: http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb...52#post8367552

Mentions copying and expanding a drive done with Winmfs. Previously, I had tried this and JMFS did not even recognize the copied drive.

So, I used JMFS rev 1.04 to copy, expand and supersize the stock drive to a 1 TB WD10EADS drive. I plugged the 1TB and a Samsung 2TB directly into the SATA ports on a motherboard. And both drives have been recognized and it is working on the copy process at this moment. Will be back in 8 hours.....

for the record.... my previous experiments were done using REV .68 of JMFS.
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THD 1.5TB Seagate = 237 hrs HD
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XL4 = 318 hrs HD
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Old 02-09-2011, 10:14 AM   #32
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Jmfs Rev 1.04

Ok, evidently you can now use Comer's REV 1.04 JMFS to copy and expand a non stock expanded drive to a larger drive.

Using WINMFS I copied the THD 160 gig to a 1 TB WD10EADS and expanded and turned on supersize. It completed with no errors.

I then ran JMFS using the 1TB and a Samsung 2TB. It recognized both drives, did the copy with no errors and then did the expand.

Put the 2TB in the THD and after a while it finally came up and it shows 318 HD hours.

Scotty
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THD 1.5TB Seagate = 237 hrs HD
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Old 02-09-2011, 11:35 AM   #33
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Originally Posted by retiredqwest View Post
...
I then ran JMFS using the 1TB and a Samsung 2TB. It recognized both drives, did the copy with no errors and then did the expand.

Put the 2TB in the THD and after a while it finally came up and it shows 318 HD hours.
Did you run WinMFS's supersize on the 2TB drive?
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Old 02-09-2011, 11:55 AM   #34
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Did you run WinMFS's supersize on the 2TB drive?
I didn't do that because it is already showing 318HRs. From what I read earlier in this thread that is what you get after running supersize. However Win MFS supersize was run on the first disk upgrade that I used for the source for this copy.
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Old 02-09-2011, 12:52 PM   #35
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Did you run WinMFS's supersize on the 2TB drive?
For some unknown reason I had supersized the stock drive some time ago. So when I copy and expand a target drive it carries that setting along with the new drive.
And since I had already upgraded my THD and TP using rev .86 I never thought of trying rev 1.04 to see if it would read an already expanded drive.

Kenva deserves the kudos for trying that!

No matter how you cut it.... JMFS will still not tweak the supersize option on a THD.
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XL4 = 318 hrs HD
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Old 02-09-2011, 05:34 PM   #36
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Originally Posted by retiredqwest View Post
Ok, evidently you can now use Comer's REV 1.04 JMFS to copy and expand a non stock expanded drive to a larger drive.

Using WINMFS I copied the THD 160 gig to a 1 TB WD10EADS and expanded and turned on supersize. It completed with no errors.

I then ran JMFS using the 1TB and a Samsung 2TB. It recognized both drives, did the copy with no errors and then did the expand.

Put the 2TB in the THD and after a while it finally came up and it shows 318 HD hours.

Scotty
Nice work confirming that...that's great to know!
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Old 02-11-2011, 11:31 PM   #37
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Originally Posted by retiredqwest View Post
Ok, evidently you can now use Comer's REV 1.04 JMFS to copy and expand a non stock expanded drive to a larger drive.

Using WINMFS I copied the THD 160 gig to a 1 TB WD10EADS and expanded and turned on supersize. It completed with no errors.

I then ran JMFS using the 1TB and a Samsung 2TB. It recognized both drives, did the copy with no errors and then did the expand.

Put the 2TB in the THD and after a while it finally came up and it shows 318 HD hours.

Scotty
Quote:
Originally Posted by KenVa View Post
I didn't do that because it is already showing 318HRs. From what I read earlier in this thread that is what you get after running supersize. However Win MFS supersize was run on the first disk upgrade that I used for the source for this copy.
Quote:
Originally Posted by retiredqwest View Post
For some unknown reason I had supersized the stock drive some time ago. So when I copy and expand a target drive it carries that setting along with the new drive.
And since I had already upgraded my THD and TP using rev .86 I never thought of trying rev 1.04 to see if it would read an already expanded drive.

Kenva deserves the kudos for trying that!

No matter how you cut it.... JMFS will still not tweak the supersize option on a THD.
Thanks to you both for confirming this new option that'll let people preserve their current recordings! I've updated the first post now with this new alternative.

Looking back at my experiments, this was one option that I definitely missed out on trying - the most I did with the expanded drive was to make a truncated backup and use that as a source (which failed). Out of curiosity, how long did it take to copy over 1TB?
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Old 02-12-2011, 06:25 AM   #38
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Quote:
Originally Posted by retiredqwest View Post
Ok, evidently you can now use Comer's REV 1.04 JMFS to copy and expand a non stock expanded drive to a larger drive.

Using WINMFS I copied the THD 160 gig to a 1 TB WD10EADS and expanded and turned on supersize. It completed with no errors.

I then ran JMFS using the 1TB and a Samsung 2TB. It recognized both drives, did the copy with no errors and then did the expand.

Put the 2TB in the THD and after a while it finally came up and it shows 318 HD hours.

Scotty
I can also confirm that this process just worked for me. I was able to upgrade my previously upgraded TivoHD to 2TB. The TivoHD had been previously copied/expanded/supersized from the stock 160GB drive to a Hitachi 7K1000.C 1TB drive using WinMFS. I just copied/expanded that to a Samsung F4 HD204UI 2TB drive using JMFS. The copy took about 5 hours with both drives connected to my PC motherboard (no USB docks). JMFS showed an expanded capacity of 288 hours, but the Tivo confirms it's 318 hours. Previous recordings were all preserved.

Thanks again to Comer for the great JMFS tool, and the other pioneers for discovering this new upgrade path.

I guess I need to put together a sig, but I have two THDs, both now at 2TB, plus three Series 2 Tivo/DVD combos all using Tivo Basic, and all upgraded to 500GB drives. Two of the Series 2s will be retired soon - one of the THDs is taking their place.
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Old 02-12-2011, 06:41 AM   #39
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Copy to Slightly Smaller Drive?

In the past with my Series 2 Tivos, I replaced the hard drives proactively after about three or four years, and at the same time expanded to more capacity. For example, a Toshiba SD-H400 upgraded from the original 80GB drive to 160GB, then three years later upgrade from 160GB to 500GB. I never had any issues because I was always expanding to more capacity.

Now, with a THD upgraded to a 2TB drive using JMFS and WinMFS, I'm at the max size limit. If I want to proactively replace that drive in three years, the new drive will probably be no larger than the same 2TB, and it might be a couple of bits or bytes smaller depending on the brand/model. Using today's tools (JMFS, WinMFS), would I run into problems trying to copy to a drive with a bit less capacity?
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Old 02-12-2011, 09:06 AM   #40
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Now, with a THD upgraded to a 2TB drive using JMFS and WinMFS, I'm at the max size limit. If I want to proactively replace that drive in three years, the new drive will probably be no larger than the same 2TB, and it might be a couple of bits or bytes smaller depending on the brand/model. Using today's tools (JMFS, WinMFS), would I run into problems trying to copy to a drive with a bit less capacity?
If your 2TB drive is still functioning normally you should be able to use dd or dd_rescue to make a bit-for-bit copy instead. Of course it's also quite possible that by then the Series6 TiVo's will have a 10TB capacity.
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Old 02-12-2011, 10:36 AM   #41
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If your 2TB drive is still functioning normally you should be able to use dd or dd_rescue to make a bit-for-bit copy instead. Of course it's also quite possible that by then the Series6 TiVo's will have a 10TB capacity.
Thanks for the info Rich. So it would be a linux command like one of these I found here?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dd_%28Unix%29

Using dd to duplicate one hard disk partition to another hard disk:
dd if=/dev/sda2 of=/dev/sdb2 bs=4096 conv=noerror

Using dd to clone a hard disk to another hard disk:
dd if=/dev/ad0 of=/dev/ad1 bs=1M conv=noerror

Sorry, I'm not a linux guy at all. It's bit-for-bit, but doesn't copy the empty bits? And the Tivo will see the full drive capacity? I don't need to figure this out now - just curious how it would work.

BTW, my two HD Tivos both have Liftetime, so unless something dramatic changes in the broadcast and display of HD, I hope to keep them around for a long time.
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Old 02-12-2011, 11:55 AM   #42
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Thanks to you both for confirming this new option that'll let people preserve their current recordings! I've updated the first post now with this new alternative.

Looking back at my experiments, this was one option that I definitely missed out on trying - the most I did with the expanded drive was to make a truncated backup and use that as a source (which failed). Out of curiosity, how long did it take to copy over 1TB?
I'm guessing 7-8 hours to do the deed. And that is direct MB connection with a quad core and 4 meg ram.

And yes, this is really nice for those that have upgraded the drives once before.
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THD 1.5TB Seagate = 237 hrs HD
Premiere WD20EVDS = 317 hrs HD.
XL4 = 318 hrs HD
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Old 02-12-2011, 11:59 AM   #43
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Thanks for the info Rich. So it would be a linux command like one of these I found here?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dd_%28Unix%29

Using dd to duplicate one hard disk partition to another hard disk:
dd if=/dev/sda2 of=/dev/sdb2 bs=4096 conv=noerror

Using dd to clone a hard disk to another hard disk:
dd if=/dev/ad0 of=/dev/ad1 bs=1M conv=noerror

Sorry, I'm not a linux guy at all. It's bit-for-bit, but doesn't copy the empty bits? And the Tivo will see the full drive capacity? I don't need to figure this out now - just curious how it would work.

BTW, my two HD Tivos both have Liftetime, so unless something dramatic changes in the broadcast and display of HD, I hope to keep them around for a long time.
Actually, the JMFS cd uses dd_rescue, a form of dd. If you were to use ONLY the copy portion of that menu (and if the destination drive is at least as big as the source), then you should be good to go.
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Old 02-12-2011, 01:01 PM   #44
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Actually, the JMFS cd uses dd_rescue, a form of dd. If you were to use ONLY the copy portion of that menu (and if the destination drive is at least as big as the source), then you should be good to go.
There you go...copy only...done!
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Old 02-12-2011, 01:35 PM   #45
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Actually, the JMFS cd uses dd_rescue, a form of dd. If you were to use ONLY the copy portion of that menu (and if the destination drive is at least as big as the source), then you should be good to go.
I think the question the OP asked was if the new 2Tb drive is say 15 byte smaller then the original 2Tb will any direct copy work. I think is is a good question that i don't know the answer, as all 2Tb drives may not have exactly the same number of bytes. I do know that a 40Tb drive used in a Humax 590 could not take a image from the Series 2 540 as it was a few bytes smaller.
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Old 02-12-2011, 02:28 PM   #46
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I think the question the OP asked was if the new 2Tb drive is say 15 bits smaller then the original 2Tb will any direct copy work. I think is is a good question that i don't know the answer, as all 2Tb drives may not have exactly the same number of bits. I do know that a 40Tb drive used in a Humax 590 could not take a image from the Series 2 540 as it was a few bits smaller.
My answer was clear--the new/duplicate drive must be at least as big as the older one.
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Old 02-12-2011, 03:14 PM   #47
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My answer was clear--the new/duplicate drive must be at least as big as the older one.
IMHO your answer was far from clear as you can't tell from the specs the EXACT size of any drive, so the answer to the OP question is good luck with any replacement drive and hope it has the exact number or more bytes as your original drive or the copy will not work. When most normal people think of the size of a drive they think 1Tb 1.5Tb 2Tb etc not the 13 numbers that define the exact number of Bytes on the drive. IE a 1.19Tb drive could have 1,317,010,403,328 bytes, it would still be called a 1.19TB drive if the last 3 digits were say 298.
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Old 02-12-2011, 03:26 PM   #48
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IMHO your answer was far from clear as you can't tell from the specs the EXACT size of any drive, so the answer to the OP question is good luck with any replacement drive and hope it has the exact number or more bytes as your original drive or the copy will not work. When most normal people think of the size of a drive they think 1Tb 1.5Tb 2Tb etc not the 13 numbers that define the exact number of Bytes on the drive. IE a 1.19Tb drive could have 1,317,010,403,328 bytes, it would still be called a 1.19TB drive if the last 3 digits were say 298.
Valid point about the exact size, but clear is clear...bigger (or equal) works. That's very clear.

At purchase, you'll have no way at all to confirm the exact number of bytes. Given a model number you can get a good guess from Google, but it won't necessarily match your drive once you get it. Once you have it in hand, however, it's easy.

The JMFS disk will easily let you do this. There may be better ways (fdisk -l, hddparm), but my first try would be to exit out to a shell and type (and read the output of) "dmesg". In there somewhere will be specifics, to include byte count, of all drives found when the CD booted.
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Old 02-12-2011, 04:37 PM   #49
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I think the question the OP asked was if the new 2Tb drive is say 15 bits smaller then the original 2Tb will any direct copy work. I think is is a good question that i don't know the answer, as all 2Tb drives may not have exactly the same number of bits. I do know that a 40Tb drive used in a Humax 590 could not take a image from the Series 2 540 as it was a few bits smaller.
Thanks lessd for following up on my question. I know I can copy to a drive that is equal or bigger. Still wondering if any tool exists that lets me copy to a drive that's a tiny bit smaller. Based on ThreeSoFar's response, so far the answer is "no". Going back to the original unexpanded drive is always an option (I keep those stored for "disaster recovery"), but of course you lose any programming and updates on the current drive.
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Old 02-12-2011, 05:38 PM   #50
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Going back to the original unexpanded drive is always an option (I keep those stored for "disaster recovery"), but of course you lose any programming and updates on the current drive.
Keeping the original drive on the shelf is very wise and certainly an option for imaging a replacement. I'm not as mindful as I should be, but I periodically reinstall my original TiVo hard drives I have on the shelf and I either let them run for a time or I force a connection so that they download and install the latest version, channel lineups, etc. That way they're somewhat up to date if I have to use them to re-image a new drive. Since updates aren't incremental, all it takes is once to get the latest and then it goes back on the shelf.
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Old 02-13-2011, 01:01 AM   #51
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IMHO your answer was far from clear as you can't tell from the specs the EXACT size of any drive, so the answer to the OP question is good luck with any replacement drive and hope it has the exact number or more bytes as your original drive or the copy will not work. When most normal people think of the size of a drive they think 1Tb 1.5Tb 2Tb etc not the 13 numbers that define the exact number of Bytes on the drive. IE a 1.19Tb drive could have 1,317,010,403,328 bytes, it would still be called a 1.19TB drive if the last 3 digits were say 298.
Manufacturer spec sheets sometimes give things like "User sectors per drive" which should be pretty precise. For example, see this for some WD AV-GP drives: http://www.wdc.com/wdproducts/librar...879-701250.pdf
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Old 02-13-2011, 05:53 AM   #52
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It looks like the user sector info is right on the drive label for most manufactures. Here are labels for example Samsung, WD and Hitachi drives.

http://www.newegg.com/Product/ImageG...0-Bare%20Drive

http://www.newegg.com/Product/ImageG...0-Bare%20Drive

http://www.newegg.com/Product/ImageG...0-Bare%20Drive

They're all the same number (3,907,029, 168). I don't know whether that's good or bad...
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Old 02-13-2011, 09:53 AM   #53
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It looks like the user sector info is right on the drive label for most manufactures. Here are labels for example Samsung, WD and Hitachi drives.
What's more important though, and also is potentially different for each and every drive, is what the OS recognizes. Each drive may have bad sectors that have been labeled as such in its own memory, the number of which may differ from one to another.

So boot up the JMFS CD (or any Linux OS), use the linux tools (dmesg, hddparm, fdisk -l) to see those numbers for your particular drive.

When first buying a replacement drive, the only sure fire ways are:
  • Make sure you can return the drive for a full refund in case it's a little too small; or
  • Get a drive that's slightly bigger (2.5TB in this case)--but that's getting harder to do at a reasonable price difference.

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Old 02-13-2011, 12:14 PM   #54
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Manufacturer spec sheets sometimes give things like "User sectors per drive" which should be pretty precise. For example, see this for some WD AV-GP drives: http://www.wdc.com/wdproducts/librar...879-701250.pdf
I looked at that spec sheet and it does not go down to the byte level only the Mb level so even if there were no bad sectors you still can't get the full 13 digits needed to check the exact size to compare to the original drive. As I see it you first have to purchase the drive than put it in your computer to find out if the drive is the exact (or bigger) size in bytes. This is only an issue when making and exact copy from on disk to another that are both the same nominal size.
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Old 02-13-2011, 05:29 PM   #55
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I looked at that spec sheet and it does not go down to the byte level only the Mb level so even if there were no bad sectors you still can't get the full 13 digits needed to check the exact size to compare to the original drive. As I see it you first have to purchase the drive than put it in your computer to find out if the drive is the exact (or bigger) size in bytes. This is only an issue when making and exact copy from on disk to another that are both the same nominal size.
Yup, you got it. And given the risk of difficulty finding a drive the right size that allows you to preserve your old recordings, (and as Rich often points out here), keeping that original hard drive never(or barely) used on a shelf as a source for future rebuilds is definitely a smart thing to do.

I have pristine never booted Series 3, HDTiVo and Premiere drives on hand now. And I have mfsbackups of Series 1 and 2's on hand (and backed up), as well.
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Old 02-14-2011, 05:02 PM   #56
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Series 2 Hard Drive replacement

I see lots of threads that give direction on replacing HD HDDs that have failed, but none specific to the series 2. How can I format new drive for my series 2. I took the old one out (which has failed) and it is a Western Digital 80 GB drive. Any advice?
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Old 02-14-2011, 05:42 PM   #57
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I see lots of threads that give direction on replacing HD HDDs that have failed, but none specific to the series 2. How can I format new drive for my series 2. I took the old one out (which has failed) and it is a Western Digital 80 GB drive. Any advice?
If you don't happen to have a truncated backup of your original drive you can use Instant Cake:

http://www.dvrupgrade.com/dvr/stores/1/instantcake.cfm

You'll need a drive larger than the original drive because IC is an expansion program. Any of the WD GP "green" drives should do nicely.

A DIY upgrade is fairly easy, but if you don't want to do any of the legwork you can always buy a pre-imaged drive from Weaknees.com or DVRUpgrade.com (actually the same company now). Folks on ebay can often be found selling TiVo drives too.

Hope that helps!
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Old 02-17-2011, 12:21 PM   #58
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Questions about using JMFS with Tivo HD *XL*

Hello Folks,

You can read about my woes with my one-year-old Tivo HD XL here: http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb...d.php?t=464771. To cut to short of it, alyssa has been h-o-u-n-d-i-n-g me to check out jmfs (shhh...don't tell her I said this). Seriously, she and dlfl have been very kind and helpful to me on my thread, but now I'm jumping here to ask my jmfs-specific questions on this thread.

In summary, I want to copy my settings and programs off what-appears-to-be a sickly stock 1TB drive, and onto a new 2TB WD20EVDS drive. I tried using WinMFS, but a full copy was taking forever. After running through the night, in the morning WinMFS was reporting on-screen that it still needed another 29 hours to complete the copy. (This I'm sure is evidence to the bad shape the 1TB drive is in.) That's when I gave up, did a fast truncated copy from the safety backup I had made, and got my TiVo back up and running with the new 2TB drive, for the time being. But I'm still looking for a way to get my previously recorded programs onto the new 2TB drive.

I've been reading and reading, and I'm starting to understand why jmfs might give me a better chance, although it would mean my having to admit to alyssa that she was right all along.

So, I'm coming here to this thread to ask some questions and check my understandings before I try out jmfs. Of course, I'm open to any advice you may have for me, as well.

I've created the jmfs CD and printed the instructions from the Premiere Drive Upgrade Instructions sticky thread.

I've also read Tivoitis' Tivo HD Upgrade Instructions - using JMFS.

So, my questions are......
  1. Tivoitis' instructions talk about the Tivo HD and do not explicitly mention the Tivo HD XL. I think I've read that others have had success with the HD XL, but I just want to confirm: Am I okay using jmfs with a Tivo HD XL? Specifically, for copying a stock 1TB to a new 2TB?
  2. Is it still true that I need to use WinMFS to to the supersize, or can I use jmfs's? Tivioitis' instructions clearly say to use WinMFS, but other posts say jmfs now works. I'm confused. What is the latest consensus?
  3. As I wrote in the thread that I originated, my HDD seems to be sick. Reading about jmfs's use of dd_rescue here, it seems like it might give me a better chance than WinMFS to copying my old programs off the sickly drive. What do you folks think?

TIA.

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Old 02-17-2011, 01:22 PM   #59
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So, my questions are......
  1. Tivoitis' instructions talk about the Tivo HD and do not explicitly mention the Tivo HD XL. I think I've read that others have had success with the HD XL, but I just want to confirm: Am I okay using jmfs with a Tivo HD XL? Specifically, for copying a stock 1TB to a new 2TB?
  2. Is it still true that I need to use WinMFS to to the supersize, or can I use jmfs's? Tivioitis' instructions clearly say to use WinMFS, but other posts say jmfs now works. I'm confused. What is the latest consensus?
  3. As I wrote in the thread that I originated, my HDD seems to be sick. Reading about jmfs's use of dd_rescue here, it seems like it might give me a better chance than WinMFS to copying my old programs off the sickly drive. What do you folks think?

TIA.
1) I'm not an expert, but I'm pretty sure you're OK with the HDXL, especially with JMFS. I think a limitation of WinMFS is that it can upgrade only to original drive size + 1TB (more or less). With an HDXL that might still work, but if you had only a TiVo HD, I think you would definitely need JMFS to upgrade to 2TB. (Someone correct this if I'm wrong.) I'd use JMFS.

2) Yes, I think you do need to use WinMFS to supersize HD or HDXL drives. I think "supersizing" involved setting a data value in TiVo's code that tells it how much space to reserve for downloading advertising videos, etc. HD and HDXL may store that in a different location from what is used by Premiere and Premiere XL. Comer should know.

3) Whatever you use, work as quickly as you can. A failing drive can be grinding your data to dust (maybe literally) every minute that it is powered up. Still, you don't know exactly what's going on in there, and I've seen data copied off (computer) drives when I thought all was lost. Sometimes cooling helps. I've seen drives cooled with ice bags or bags of frozen peas, then popped into a docking station to copy off some more files before they can overheat again. You may have only a short time to work, so using a dock is faster than having to reboot a whole computer. The sheer volume of video data on a DVR drive makes recovery difficult.
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Old 02-17-2011, 11:26 PM   #60
richsadams
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SoKal5366 View Post
<snip>In summary, I want to copy my settings and programs off what-appears-to-be a sickly stock 1TB drive, and onto a new 2TB WD20EVDS drive. I tried using WinMFS <snip>
Welcome. I asked for confirmation of a TiVo HDXL 1TB > 2TB upgrade using jmfs a while back and AFAIK no one has done that. (Plenty of folks have successfully upgraded TiVo HD's to 2TB's using jmfs however.) So you will be a TiVo Pioneer. There s/b no reason for it not to work. Due to partition differences between the TiVo Premiere for which jmfs was originally written and the TiVo HD/HDXL you will likely need to use winMFS to Supersize, but that should only take a moment.

dd_rescue is a bit-for-bit copy program that may or may not resolve data corruption issues (it's more likely a physical failure). If your drive is failing, take Mr. Matheny's advice and perform the upgrade sooner than later.
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