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View Poll Results: Are your Tuning Adapters reliable?
My Motorola TA has never let me down 4 3.03%
My Cisco TA has never let me down 10 7.58%
My Motorola TA is nothing but trouble 1 0.76%
My Cisco TA is nothing but trouble 29 21.97%
My Motorola TA lets me down sometimes but mostly works 3 2.27%
My Cisco TA lets me down sometimes but mostly works 44 33.33%
I've had a few issues at first but things are good now 6 4.55%
I'm lucky enough to live where I don't need a TA 35 26.52%
Voters: 132. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 06-28-2010, 07:30 PM   #31
dcstager
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SCSIRAID View Post
Same for me. Other than this problem... The TA's have been fine. I can go for weeks without seeing it. Ive had 4 failed recordings between 2 TiVo's in the last 2 days though. Hopefully it will go back into hibernation. Luckily, TiVo is smart enough to put the missed episode back into the To Do List so it will eventually get recorded (usually).

Digging around shows that the TiVo ends up on the wrong frequency and will fail to find the desired program in the transport stream. Looking at the TA, it is on the 'right' frequency... so the issue seems to be in the communications between TA and TiVo. Ive been able to catch this problem where my S3 and S4 are both recording the same show... but one is on the right frequency and the other is on the wrong frequency. The TA 'sessions' screens look identical.
I read Tivo's statement to the FCC and I think Tivo's credibility is questionable as long as this bug is unresolved. They know about this bug and going through everything here including your tests and your bang on technical solutions to Tivo problems, this last bug is a Tivo software problem. So aside from the one bug, the Tivo and Tuning Adapter works. Tivo reputation for total reliability is gone because of this one bug.

It should be moved to the top of the Tivo list of todo things.
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Old 06-28-2010, 07:38 PM   #32
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I read Tivo's statement to the FCC and I think Tivo's credibility is questionable as long as this bug is unresolved. They know about this bug and going through everything here including your tests and your bang on technical solutions to Tivo problems, this last bug is a Tivo software problem. So aside from the one bug, the Tivo and Tuning Adapter works. Tivo reputation for total reliability is gone because of this one bug.

It should be moved to the top of the Tivo list of todo things.
Even without root cause and reguardless of whose ultimate fault it is, it should be easy for TiVo to workaround. All they would have to do is watch 'Program Lock' after a tune and if it doesnt go 'YES' after 10-20 seconds then execute a retune.

And the one just below this one it is the 'Suggestions dont work with a TA attached'. That is #2 on my hitlist. It doesnt impact everybody but both my S3 and THD have the problem. Premiere doesnt have this problem so its clearly TiVo's issue.

Fix these 2 problems and I will be a happy camper.
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Old 06-28-2010, 07:45 PM   #33
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For what it's worth, here is a copy of a TiVo email support exchange I had today:

Me:
Quote:
On this support web page: http://support.tivo.com/app/answers/...88/r_id/100041
you make this statement:
"As of today, there are no known issues with Tuning Adapters and Premiere/XL, TiVo HD/XL, and Series3 HD DVRs".
My experience along with those of others which can be easily reviewed on the TiVoCommunity.com forums, shows the following issues:
1. Failure to tune SDV channels, requiring a manual channel up/down retune, and causing lost recordings. The channel up/down work-around formerly was given on the TiVo support web page link given above but was recently removed. (Why?)
2. Frequent TiVo spontaneous reboots that occur ONLY if a Tuning Adapter is connected.
3. TiVo reboots caused when recordings are scheduled for the same start time on two SDV channels.
I can provide specific web links to forum posts and threads describing these problems if requested.
Reply from TiVo Customer Support:
Quote:
Thank you for contacting TiVo Customer Support. At this time, there are no known issues between Tuning Adapters and our TiVo boxes. The vast majority of customers using a Tuning Adapter with their TiVo box do not experience any problems. The issues you listed are failures on the Tuning Adapter's part, not the TiVo. Channel tuning and tuning two SDV channels simultaneously are functions handled by the Tuning Adapter and Cablecard specifically. As for the TiVo unit rebooting only when a Tuning Adapter is plugged in also indicate that the issue lies again with the Tuning Adapter.

The troubleshooting step that was removed was done so because the steps were troubleshooting a third party device, which we do not do. If you are experiencing any of the issue you listed, you need to contact your cable provider for troubleshooting and possibly replacement of the Tuning Adapter.
So their position is that only a very tiny percentage of TA users have any of these problems, and that when the problems do occur they are entirely the fault of the TA.

Maybe they're correct -- there's no way to prove otherwise. Note TiVo says they don't troubleshoot third party devices. And of course, the Cable Co. will say it's the TiVo's fault and they don't ... well you know. As far as the Cable Co. troubleshooting the TA ? That's a joke in my experience.
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Old 06-28-2010, 07:54 PM   #34
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As far as the Cable Co. troubleshooting the TA ? That's a joke in my experience.
Really? When you call those guys at NCCSD that is a joke too? LOL I guess calling them is a waste of time then. LOL

I just am astounded that Tivo did not even acknowledge there are any issues, even though there is plenty of evidence to the contrary. Makes me wish I had never bought into them.
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Old 06-28-2010, 08:08 PM   #35
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dlfl View Post
For what it's worth, here is a copy of a TiVo email support exchange I had today:

Me:

Reply from TiVo Customer Support:

So their position is that only a very tiny percentage of TA users have any of these problems, and that when the problems do occur they are entirely the fault of the TA.

Maybe they're correct -- there's no way to prove otherwise. Note TiVo says they don't troubleshoot third party devices. And of course, the Cable Co. will say it's the TiVo's fault and they don't ... well you know. As far as the Cable Co. troubleshooting the TA ? That's a joke in my experience.
Well... It it hadnt been for TWC engineering, I dont think we would have gotten the SDV pixelation bug fixed... They put a lot of time and effort into getting to the smoking gun.
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Old 06-28-2010, 09:36 PM   #36
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Originally Posted by SCSIRAID View Post
Well... It it hadnt been for TWC engineering, I dont think we would have gotten the SDV pixelation bug fixed... They put a lot of time and effort into getting to the smoking gun.
I would note that the SDV pixelation bug was a TiVo problem, and I take your point that TWC did not sluff it off as "third party". However, I think your case of working well with TWC engineering was exceptional, both on their part and on yours (thanks again!). The common cable co response, related by many posts here, is that when you have a problem some reps will know enough to try sending some signals but I've never run into a cable co rep, at least at the local level, who would, or could, talk intelligently about troubleshooting a TA, e.g., FDC and RDC levels, Sub Expires Date, etc. -- And I've had quite a few encounters. Also numerous posters have reported that the cable co was quick to blame TiVo (and suggest switching to a cable co DVR) rather than dig into troubleshooting.
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Old 06-28-2010, 09:46 PM   #37
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Really? When you call those guys at NCCSD that is a joke too? LOL I guess calling them is a waste of time then. LOL
.....
Point taken. NCCS is TWC's National Cable Card Desk and it has been the best source of help for TWC people having TA problems -- and I have recommended calling them whenever local support doesn't get it done for you. However, although it's been available for at least a year, TWC has never trained their local support people adequately to take advantage of it -- some of them have argued with me that it didn't even exist! So given this is just one of the many cable companies, and even they don't use it intelligently, I don't think it's enough to counter the general statement that cable co. TA troubleshooting is a joke. Actually the last time I tried to get help from NCCS, on the same old 8-blink problem they've fixed (temporarily) so many times for me, even they didn't get it fixed.
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Old 06-29-2010, 09:01 AM   #38
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Point taken. NCCS is TWC's National Cable Card Desk and it has been the best source of help for TWC people having TA problems -- and I have recommended calling them whenever local support doesn't get it done for you. However, although it's been available for at least a year, TWC has never trained their local support people adequately to take advantage of it -- some of them have argued with me that it didn't even exist! So given this is just one of the many cable companies, and even they don't use it intelligently, I don't think it's enough to counter the general statement that cable co. TA troubleshooting is a joke. Actually the last time I tried to get help from NCCS, on the same old 8-blink problem they've fixed (temporarily) so many times for me, even they didn't get it fixed.
That's odd I thought they had been running some script to fix that every month renew issue. I have not personally had it happen in months. I agree with you about the locals & the way they support cards & TAs. I know that desk has been active now for over 2 & 1/2 years, it's sad really that after all that time they are still the only real source.
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Old 06-29-2010, 09:32 AM   #39
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That's odd I thought they had been running some script to fix that every month renew issue. I have not personally had it happen in months............
The 8-blink situation seems to have improved in TWC SW Ohio. I haven't had it since 5/4/10 and my Sub Expires date is getting updated automatically. Details are in **this thread**. Nobody really knows what has changed, although a script is probably involved.

This is after having to call them every month for almost a year. And of course the 8-blink issue is not the only problem folks are having with TA's.
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Old 06-29-2010, 10:03 AM   #40
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Even without root cause and reguardless of whose ultimate fault it is, it should be easy for TiVo to workaround. All they would have to do is watch 'Program Lock' after a tune and if it doesnt go 'YES' after 10-20 seconds then execute a retune.

And the one just below this one it is the 'Suggestions dont work with a TA attached'. That is #2 on my hitlist. It doesnt impact everybody but both my S3 and THD have the problem. Premiere doesnt have this problem so its clearly TiVo's issue.

Fix these 2 problems and I will be a happy camper.
The suggestions not working with a TA is not a bug but part of the SDV protocol and is controlled by Time Warner. The spec allows the cableco to restrict "speculative" recordings. Since the bandwidth is supposed to be limited to what people are actually watching, this makes at least some sense in the scheme of things. However, this is squarely in the realm of Time Warner's control.

Tivo is saying that the TA's don't work. I would say they actually do work if this one bug was fixed. They work inelegantly and it's a kludge to be sure. But Tivo can't tell the FCC they don't work in the manner they have. If the FCC needs an excuse to do nothing or rule against Tivo, some small matter like this is just the peg they will hang it on. It's better for them to demonstrate the workaround to the FCC to then argue that TAs are not the optimal solution. Besides, Tivo has to please their customers. A bit of error condition testing and a retune built into the Tivo software as you suggest will make their machines more reliable.

Their entire new line of Tivos is jeopardized by this particular bug. I like many people with gadgets will move on to the next new thing if my current thing is unreliable. I'm personally waiting for the DirecTV HD Tivo. I'm dropping Time Warner immediately as it stands now and my Series 3 goes to the guest room with a UHF loop antenna. My OTA reception of HD is perfect and the Tivo is completely reliable recording that.
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Old 06-29-2010, 10:12 AM   #41
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......Tivo is saying that the TA's don't work. I would say they actually do work if this one bug was fixed. ........
Which "one bug"? Suggestions or failure to tune?

Edit: You must mean the failure to tune, since you said the suggestions problem was not a "bug".
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Last edited by dlfl : 06-29-2010 at 10:19 AM.
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Old 06-29-2010, 10:17 AM   #42
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If you want to read what TiVo, TWC and NCTA are saying now to the FCC about tuning adapters (and cable cards, and what should come next) see **this**. You can easily file your own comment too.
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Old 06-29-2010, 10:29 AM   #43
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The suggestions not working with a TA is not a bug but part of the SDV protocol and is controlled by Time Warner. The spec allows the cableco to restrict "speculative" recordings. Since the bandwidth is supposed to be limited to what people are actually watching, this makes at least some sense in the scheme of things. However, this is squarely in the realm of Time Warner's control.
Actually this is not true.... I verified with TWC engineering quite some time ago that speculative recording requests were NOT disabled/blocked. This is further proven by the fact that the Premiere's (including the Premiere I have here sitting right next to my S3) records suggestions just fine with a TA attached. If TA limited speculative recordings... then it would cause Premiere to not record suggestions either... which is not the case.

TWC has their TA's set up to reclaim/kill speculative recording sessions IF non speculative tuning requests occur that cannot be fulfilled due to 'out of bandwidth'.

Last edited by SCSIRAID : 06-29-2010 at 10:35 AM.
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Old 06-29-2010, 06:59 PM   #44
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The horse is probably dead but ......

This is the continuation of the TiVo Support email exchange I'm having, given in my post #33:

Me:
Quote:
This is not a convincing reply. There is nothing a Tuning Adapter should be able to do that would cause the TiVo to reboot. I believe this clearly suggests poor software design of the TiVo in the area of handling exceptions.
In the case of tuning failures, the TiVo software can determine whether a channel is tuned properly by using information that is displayed in DVR diagnostics, such as "Program Lock". In fact the TiVo clearly knows that tuning has failed when it fails to record a scheduled recording and displays in the Recording History that the recording failed due to "the video signal was unavailable". The TiVo software should perform retries of the tuning in these cases, emulating the channel up/channel down workaround. Although I have a TiVo HD, I know that this same problem occurs on Premieres. After seeing hundreds if not thousands of posts on these problems on the TiVoCommunity.com forums as evidence of these problems, I wonder what evidence TiVo has to support your statement that the "vast majority" of TA users do not experience any problems?
Response from Tivo Customer Support:
Quote:
I apologize for your frustration with the tuning adapters functioning with your TiVo HD. TiVo's are not designed to work with third party hardware, with the exception of the Western Digital My DVR Expander. Because of this, third party hardware is not supported. You will need to contact your cable provider for further assistance with your tuning adapter.
Of course this is not a serious response and shouldn't be taken as such, but really "TiVo's are not designed to work with third party hardware, with the exception of the Western Digital My DVR Expander." This is obviously incorrect and is especially ridiculous considering TA's were designed and provided by the cable cos in cooperation with, and at the request of .... TiVo. (Somebody at TiVo needs some better scripts to work from!)
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Old 06-29-2010, 08:02 PM   #45
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TWC has their TA's set up to reclaim/kill speculative recording sessions IF non speculative tuning requests occur that cannot be fulfilled due to 'out of bandwidth'.
Could this implementation be flawed or buggy in some respect resulting in the general unreliability of SDV recording requests? Could that explain why my market has the bug but others don't? Could my market have their speculative recordings setting different than another? Since the cableco has the capability, a simple explanation might be that a mistake or error has been made. Maybe they set it up as claimed, but it doesn't operate as the cableco expects or requests?

This all now casts some doubt on who is responsible. However, Tivo can and should include a fix in the next software upgrade. I have to agree we don't know exactly who is responsible given the facts you report. I appreciate all this and gladly admit my error here.
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Old 06-29-2010, 08:45 PM   #46
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Could this implementation be flawed or buggy in some respect resulting in the general unreliability of SDV recording requests? Could that explain why my market has the bug but others don't? Could my market have their speculative recordings setting different than another? Since the cableco has the capability, a simple explanation might be that a mistake or error has been made. Maybe they set it up as claimed, but it doesn't operate as the cableco expects or requests?

This all now casts some doubt on who is responsible. However, Tivo can and should include a fix in the next software upgrade. I have to agree we don't know exactly who is responsible given the facts you report. I appreciate all this and gladly admit my error here.
If you are referring to the Suggestions issue... there have been a lot of folks commenting on this issue but have accepted the 'fable' that its TWC's fault due to their disabling background tunes. Do you know anybody in your area with a Premiere? Check their unit and see if they get suggestions with their TA? I bet they do TWC Engineering told me that they treat Speculative and Background tunes the same... a background tune is the show on the 'second' tuner that is not currently being watched. If you can press the live TV button and go between the two tuners and see two shows then all should be well.

As to 'General unreliability of SDV tuning'... that doesnt align with my experience. Ive found it to be quite reliable with a few exceptions.
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Old 07-25-2010, 04:35 PM   #47
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We just got our Tivo Premiere yesterday. Already I love the Tivo interface. BUT, the TWC technician installed both a cable card and a tuner. Only the channels from the cablecard came through - I manually added all the others. However they are ALL "to be announced".... Any ideas on how to fix this? A lot of programs I watch are on these channels (HGTV, Food network, etc)
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Old 07-25-2010, 05:57 PM   #48
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We just got our Tivo Premiere yesterday. Already I love the Tivo interface. BUT, the TWC technician installed both a cable card and a tuner. Only the channels from the cablecard came through - I manually added all the others. However they are ALL "to be announced".... Any ideas on how to fix this? A lot of programs I watch are on these channels (HGTV, Food network, etc)
that depends on your location. I am in North east Ohio where they did not push the HD channels out to the 1000s range yet & are still in the 400s. If you live in the Cleveland area this could be affecting you. You would have to revert back to the old lineup. An easy way to tell is to go to the 400s & see if your HD channels are there but the Guide tells you they are "on demand" channels.
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Old 07-29-2010, 05:32 AM   #49
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Originally Posted by SCSIRAID View Post
If you are referring to the Suggestions issue... there have been a lot of folks commenting on this issue but have accepted the 'fable' that its TWC's fault due to their disabling background tunes. Do you know anybody in your area with a Premiere? Check their unit and see if they get suggestions with their TA? I bet they do TWC Engineering told me that they treat Speculative and Background tunes the same... a background tune is the show on the 'second' tuner that is not currently being watched. If you can press the live TV button and go between the two tuners and see two shows then all should be well.

As to 'General unreliability of SDV tuning'... that doesnt align with my experience. Ive found it to be quite reliable with a few exceptions.
Back to the suggestions issue-

This has happened twice before. We have not had a single suggestion recorded for two months. Using Tivo Desktop, I can tell that I am no more than 60% utilized on drive space. We were away for a few days - no one touching the TiVo, and had a few oddball suggestions recorded (three episodes of Cheers - a show that I have never watched a single entire episode of). Now that we are back - it stops. Odd huh - seems the channel changing kills the Suggestions issue.
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