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Old 11-11-2009, 06:59 PM   #1861
richsadams
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It isn't worth the bother or expense.

I disagree. Talking with my co-workers who have FiOS, I'm convinced that the advantage is marginal at best. I have great service with Comcast. There is no reason to take a step down (we lose the use of our S1, and our S2 becomes less reliable because it will have to operate a box, in a room where we've had a lot of electrical interference in the past -- not to mention that FiOS costs more, because they don't offer something comparable to Digital Economy) to FiOS for television, just to gain a small improvement in HSI.

No, the way it works is that you place the order, the installer comes and tells you how he's going to do the install, then, presumably you get to fight with him about it, and then you get a take-it-or-leave it choice. Unless the installer is willing to put the router in my loft without any additional expense to us, it wouldn't be worth it, and we'd all have just wasted a day. As I understand it, that's the only way it can work.
So...you've never had FIOS installed but you know "how it works" and have no first-hand experience with PQ and other "advantages" of FIOS over Comcast but believe them to be "marginal". Hmmm...sounds like you're trying to convince yourself that you've made the right decision. Glad we could help with that...or not.
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Old 11-11-2009, 07:03 PM   #1862
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They're all hooked up to the same coax. It works.
Yes..it does.
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Old 11-11-2009, 09:53 PM   #1863
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One thing I'm confused about is how that third floor router manages to communicate with that second floor STB. That seems like magic to me.
Because you can trace a path from the router to the spliter then to the STB. The MOcA data flows both ways through the splitter... it is bi-directional signal on the same cable.

If you can get a cable TV signal at both the STB and the Router than the STB and the Router will be able to communicate.

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Old 11-12-2009, 02:31 AM   #1864
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Because you can trace a path from the router to the spliter then to the STB. The MOcA data flows both ways through the splitter... it is bi-directional signal on the same cable.
One potential problem is that the MoCA signals are "above" the normal cable TV signals, they're in the 1 GHz range. If you have RG-6 cable and GHz splitters you're probably OK. But if you have RG-59 cable and old 500 MHz splitters you will probably be SOL. I'm speaking theoretically since I have no personal experience with MoCA.
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Old 11-12-2009, 02:46 AM   #1865
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So...you've never had FIOS installed but you know "how it works" and have no first-hand experience with PQ and other "advantages" of FIOS over Comcast but believe them to be "marginal". Hmmm...sounds like you're trying to convince yourself that you've made the right decision. Glad we could help with that...or not.
Rather, I think I have all the information I need to decide how much each is better than the other, and you just don't like the decision.

As it is, I haven't eliminated FiOS from contention. They have clueless customer service personnel, and much worse customer service overall, than Comcast. However, some folks in the FiOS forum spent last night correcting a lot of very bad information Verizon has provided me.

However, thanks for trying to psychoanalyze me and trying to make the very rational and informed decision-making which I regularly engage in sound like something else, just because you didn't like its ramifications.
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Old 11-12-2009, 02:49 AM   #1866
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One potential problem is that the MoCA signals are "above" the normal cable TV signals, they're in the 1 GHz range. If you have RG-6 cable and GHz splitters you're probably OK. But if you have RG-59 cable and old 500 MHz splitters you will probably be SOL. I'm speaking theoretically since I have no personal experience with MoCA.
I'm very concerned about the splitter in the attic, but I suspect that if that's what's holding everything up, the installer will gladly replace it, despite having to climb up a ladder to get to the splitter. As long as they can just use the coax (it's all heavy-duty stuff... RG6) it may work out.
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Old 11-12-2009, 03:04 AM   #1867
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Rather, I think I have all the information I need to decide how much each is better than the other, and you just don't like the decision.
Oh please, don't flatter yourself. I could care less about your decision. Your argumentative know-it-all attitude and ungrateful manner about any help folks try to give you here is just irritating and childish. It just amazes me when people ask for help and then complain and attempt to invalidate what others politely post when they receive it. Weren't you kicked off of this forum for that before? Some folks never learn.
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Old 11-12-2009, 03:18 AM   #1868
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Oh please, don't flatter yourself.
It's not flattery. It's simply the truth.

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I could care less about your decision.
Then keep your baseless, antagonistic criticisms of it to yourself.

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Your argumentative know-it-all attitude and ungrateful manner about any help folks try to give you here is just irritating and childish.
Your comment that I was referring to was not meant as helpful. You know that. You attacked blindly because you didn't like the ramifications of what you read. You probably even knew that I have more than enough insight into the relative merits of the services offered by the various providers in my area, yet you still posted your attack. Stop trying to avoid responsibility for what you wrote.

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It just amazes me when people ask for help and then complain and attempt to invalidate what others politely post when they receive it.
Nice of you to label comments like "I disagree" as a complaint. Another self-serving rationalization. You might be able to label some of my other comments as impolite, but not these here. The lack of civility in this thread is all on you.

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Weren't you kicked off of this forum for that before? Some folks never learn.
What are you talking about? I've never been kicked off of this forum. Have you? How many times? What did you learn from it?
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Old 11-12-2009, 03:24 AM   #1869
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What are you talking about? I've never been kicked off of this forum. Have you? How many times? What did you learn from it?
Hmmm....my mistake...someone else named "bicker" is listed. Must be a coincidence. Me, no never been kicked off or out of anything, but thanks for asking. 'Nuff said.
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Old 11-12-2009, 03:26 AM   #1870
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Ridiculous.
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Old 11-12-2009, 07:25 AM   #1871
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I had considered not posting but I didn't see any clear answer and I figure others might be in a similar situation and might need some advice. If I understand bickers problem concerning the network setup, he is thinking about switching to Fios but has some issue with placement of actual hardware (fios router in basement regular network router in a loft on the third floor, not wanting to run extra wiring etc). I don't have fios but my understanding is that their router and STB's uses MoCA for their networking and if you want to add an ethernet port somewhere if there is a cable coax all you need to do is add a MoCA adapter (Google it if you want to price them out, a quick search found some on amazon for about $70) and you are set. ASSUMING your hardware infrastructure (the cabling and splitters etc) can handle it (RG6 good, RG59 YMMV) what bicker could do is put the fios router in the basement as the Verizon people want put a MoCA adapter in the loft turn off the DHCP server and use his current router as a switch. This would make it so the only change is where the router is (now in the basement on the fios router) and uses his existing network wiring for everything else. On the wireless side (I haven't tried it, but in theory) he could use the B/G on the Fios router and N only on his current router set to Access Point mode.

Concerning S1/S2 tivo's controlling Verizon boxes I have no idea. I have never owned an S1 or S2 and Verizon isn't available in my area nor do they have any plans to be in my area.
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Old 11-12-2009, 08:35 AM   #1872
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Bicker--If you decide to swich to FiOS:
1) You may be told you can't have 2 routers. This is true, if you use your N router you'll be configuring it in bridge mode and it won't really be operating as a router.
2) You might want to give their DVR a try. You read possible reviews on the new Moxi (and possible new tivo's in 2010) and then decide what equipment you'll replace.
3)I don't know if any of the FiOS boxes can be controlled by tivo via serial. You
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Old 11-12-2009, 09:46 AM   #1873
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Hmmm....my mistake...someone else named "bicker" is listed. ...........
What list? Who has access to it?
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Old 11-12-2009, 10:35 AM   #1874
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If I understand bickers problem concerning the network setup, he is thinking about switching to Fios but has some issue with placement of actual hardware (fios router in basement regular network router in a loft on the third floor, not wanting to run extra wiring etc).
More specifically was the implication that the router had to be connected to the ONT via Ethernet connection, instead of the reality, that they can be connected to each other solely via coax, as long as you're willing to use a MoCA router as your path to the Internet (regardless of whether you put other routers inside the LAN served by that MoCA router).

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I don't have fios but my understanding is that their router and STB's uses MoCA for their networking and if you want to add an ethernet port somewhere if there is a cable coax all you need to do is add a MoCA adapter
It is even easier than that, for me, since I personally only really need one router, in my loft -- the issue was whether their router, supporting their STB's need for MoCA-served access to its data-source, could be located where I wanted that one router, as opposed to (as some of the FiOS CSRs and their manager was telling me) that it would have to be (effectively buried) in my basement.

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ASSUMING your hardware infrastructure (the cabling and splitters etc) can handle it (RG6 good, RG59 YMMV)
12 year old RG6... very good as far as I can tell. Again, the only weak link might be a barrel connector (I thought originally it was a splitter, but then my wife reminded me that we had Comcast disconnect cable in the second bedroom, and therefore replaced that splitter with a barrel connector) in my attic.

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what bicker could do is put the fios router in the basement as the Verizon people want; put a MoCA adapter in the loft; turn off the DHCP server and use his current router as a switch.
Yeah, that's possible as I understand it now, but presumably, based on what a lot of folks on some FiOS specific forums have been telling me since late yesterday, unnecessary. Essentially, Verizon shouldn't impose the requirement of putting their router in the basement: I'm being told it should be placed in my loft where I want it.

If not, I will not permit the installer to install my service, and I'll stick with Comcast.

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... On the wireless side (I haven't tried it, but in theory) he could use the B/G on the Fios router and N only on his current router set to Access Point mode.
I'm going to go down the path of bridging my router onto their router, and use my router solely for Wireless-N traffic.

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Concerning S1/S2 tivo's controlling Verizon boxes I have no idea. I have never owned an S1 or S2 and Verizon isn't available in my area nor do they have any plans to be in my area.
My understanding is that S1s never got updated IR codes for DTAs like the Motorola DCT 700, or for STBs like the Motorola QIP 2500, that FiOS uses here in the northeast. The S2s have gotten updated IR codes, of course, but I'm not sure if they have codes for the QIP 2500 -- doesn't matter because if you're going to use a S2, why have a FiOS STB? Just get the DTA, the Motorola DCT 700, and I'm pretty-sure I remember seeing some messages indicating that that is in the TiVo IR database.
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Old 11-12-2009, 10:43 AM   #1875
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Bicker--If you decide to swich to FiOS:
1) You may be told you can't have 2 routers. This is true, if you use your N router you'll be configuring it in bridge mode and it won't really be operating as a router.
Yeah, I suppose, if you're bridging the two (as I plan to, now). There are approaches (discussed in detail in the thread from which I got a lot of great advice late yesterday) that do involve having two routers, operating as routers. Way too complicated for me, though.

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2) You might want to give their DVR a try. You read possible reviews on the new Moxi (and possible new tivo's in 2010) and then decide what equipment you'll replace.
Yeah, I'll talk with my wife about it. It's free for the first 90 days if we want it. It just seems wasteful given that my TiVo S3 had better work, and I've got 1 TB of storage in it. Having said that, I could use it as a back-up for a few months and then just return it. I can return it just seven miles down the highway, at Jordan's Furniture.

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3)I don't know if any of the FiOS boxes can be controlled by tivo via serial. You
I read some indication that that was the case with at least one box. I'll research that in greater detail over the next week or so.


BTW: I called Verizon repair this morning. They asked what number I was calling for repair on and I replied, "Yours!" They tried to call the business office themselves, and got the same error. They transferred me over internally so I could make the fixes to my order, and said that they'd indeed dispatch a repair for themselves to fix the problem with their customer service line. I had a need to make another call later (because the change that I made showed up on their website apparently different from what I asked for -- turned out it is just that the website is buggy -- it shows changes and adds, but does not reflect deletions) and the call went through this time, so evidently they fixed their own line problem pretty quick.
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Old 11-12-2009, 10:56 AM   #1876
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bicker, FYI, there was a thread in the Coffee House forum a few days ago about using serial cables between a Series 2 and the FIOS SD set-top box: http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb...d.php?t=436795

I've been considering switching to FIOS, and this is one of the issues I've been worried about (I've got 3 S2's, and can't afford to upgrade them at the present time). According to post #4 in that thread, using serial works for 3-digit channels (I've read elsewhere that the S2 doesn't support sending 4 digits to the serial port). I really want to avoid the IR blasters if I can.
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Old 11-12-2009, 10:59 AM   #1877
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Bicker--If you decide to swich to FiOS:
1) You may be told you can't have 2 routers. This is true, if you use your N router you'll be configuring it in bridge mode and it won't really be operating as a router.
Not exactly, you could use a second router to make a new subnet. But that is a bit more complex than most people are willing to do.
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Old 11-12-2009, 02:26 PM   #1878
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Yeah, I'll talk with my wife about it. It's free for the first 90 days if we want it. It just seems wasteful given that my TiVo S3 had better work, and I've got 1 TB of storage in it. Having said that, I could use it as a back-up for a few months and then just return it. I can return it just seven miles down the highway, at Jordan's Furniture.
I'd still use your S3, I'd use the FiOS DVR instead of your S1 unit. That will give you time to decide if you like the FiOS DVR, want to get a 2010 tivo or a Moxi. My FiOS DVR recorded Fringe. You want at least one "real" FiOS STB (either regular or DVR) so you can decide how much use you'll get from VoD. Their VoD provides cc (on at least the shows I checked).
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Old 11-12-2009, 02:31 PM   #1879
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2010 Tivo? Are they releasing a new model? Any info on them?
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Old 11-12-2009, 02:37 PM   #1880
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2010 Tivo? Are they releasing a new model? Any info on them?
Mainly rumors. A tivo that works with DTV has already been announced. A Best Buy version of tivo has been announced.

At some time tivo is going to have to release units based on the newer broadcom chipsets. It makes no sense to think tivo will let Moxi be that far ahead of tivo.

A very knowledgable poster said dropping analog (and OTA) support would allow tivo to either reduce the price or add features (extra tuners) for about the current price.

The new Moxi may make sense for some of us but waiting a few months makes sense.
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Old 11-12-2009, 03:06 PM   #1881
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My two HD Tivos with cablecards both show two channel 572 (ESPN news) in the channel lineup. I can't disable or enable only one, they appear to be connected. Anyone else have this problem? I don't see how it could be just me with two separate units having the same problem. Tried searching and couldn't find anything about this problem so hoping someone knows what's going on.
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Old 11-13-2009, 09:40 AM   #1882
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Posted over on the Boston-VZ thread on AVS and someone indicated this is a provider channel error (572 listed as both ESPN News and ESPN News HD) and submitted a lineup report to Tivo for their Vz region which eventually corrected the problem. I just did the same so hopefully they fix it quickly.
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Old 11-18-2009, 11:33 AM   #1883
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It is even easier than that, for me, since I personally only really need one router, in my loft -- the issue was whether their router, supporting their STB's need for MoCA-served access to its data-source, could be located where I wanted that one router, as opposed to (as some of the FiOS CSRs and their manager was telling me) that it would have to be (effectively buried) in my basement.
I don't know why they would tell you where to put it, unless you don't have a coax outlet near where your router is. When my FIOS was installed I told the installer where to put the router. They might be telling you where they want to put the ONT and backup battery, but not the router.
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Old 11-18-2009, 10:36 PM   #1884
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I don't know why they would tell you where to put it, unless you don't have a coax outlet near where your router is. When my FIOS was installed I told the installer where to put the router. They might be telling you where they want to put the ONT and backup battery, but not the router.
+1 I agree. The CSR don't know what they are talking about. They mean the ONT. I mean, the MUST run coax to where your TV to hook up the STB. And, the Router connects to the ONT with coax also.

BOb
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Old 11-19-2009, 05:15 AM   #1885
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+1 I agree. The CSR don't know what they are talking about. They mean the ONT. I mean, the MUST run coax to where your TV to hook up the STB. And, the Router connects to the ONT with coax also.

BOb
The only thing that MIGHT be a POSSIBLE issue (I have no idea one way or the other) is IF the router has to be within x feet of the ONT and the run is just too long to meet that (say x + 20. feet). Personally I don't see where it matters that much, just mount the router on the wall next to the ONT and then use your current router as a switch/wireless AP or if that really bothers you just plug the lan out from the new router into the internet in port on your old make a new subnet (You lose the MoCA this way but YOUR network stays the same).
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Old 11-19-2009, 06:00 AM   #1886
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The only reason we're switching to FiOS is for a higher-speed, more reasonably priced HSI service. Introducing a wireless bridge, through two floors, is a non-starter.
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Old 11-19-2009, 07:49 AM   #1887
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Introducing a wireless bridge, through two floors, is a non-starter.
No need to do it wireless (assuming you have coax where you want your router), you just need a MoCA adapter like this one. For that matter I would think that Verizon includes them (or at least a certain number of them with an install (I don't have verizon in my area so I never got that far into seeing what hardware is included). If they don't include any you would have to buy one, if they only include 1 have them set it up for the computer where you want your router to be and when they leave put the router/switch there (however you choose to set it up as) in its place.

If you don't have a coax where you want to keep your router then to tell the truth you can put a switch anywhere in the network and it would still work it just starts to be a bit of a kludge (more hardware a little more thinking when troubleshooting network issues). There are many options available that use the existing setup. Some less optimal than others its just a matter of being creative and a little flixible. The flexible part is adding a large paperback sized box (a switch/router) into your setup and possibly having to conceal it some way Or just put it on to of your STB.

Of course you could also run the coax /ethernet where you want it either DIY or if they don't include that in the install pay someone.

For those that don't know how to, in simple terms, to set it up as a new subnet, just plug the feed from the verizon router into the internet in on your router. the downside is anything connected thru your router isn't visible to the stuff on the verizon router and you can't use the moca to anything but your router.

To set it up as a switch (Adding more ports to an existing network) turn off DHCP on your router and connect the verizon router to one on the regular lan ports instead of the internet port. This way is probably the best option because everything is still on the same subnet.
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Old 11-19-2009, 09:51 AM   #1888
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No need to do it wireless (assuming you have coax where you want your router), you just need a MoCA adapter like this one. For that matter I would think that Verizon includes them (or at least a certain number of them with an install (I don't have verizon in my area so I never got that far into seeing what hardware is included).
The folks on the VZ forums didn't indicate any solution akin to what you're describing. This is the reference I'm using:

http://www.dslreports.com/faq/verizo...3.0_Networking

Which of the options are you suggesting? Could you describe the topology of the network you're suggesting?

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If they don't include any you would have to buy one, if they only include 1 have them set it up for the computer where you want your router to be and when they leave put the router/switch there (however you choose to set it up as) in its place.

If you don't have a coax where you want to keep your router then to tell the truth you can put a switch anywhere in the network and it would still work it just starts to be a bit of a kludge (more hardware a little more thinking when troubleshooting network issues). There are many options available that use the existing setup. Some less optimal than others its just a matter of being creative and a little flixible. The flexible part is adding a large paperback sized box (a switch/router) into your setup and possibly having to conceal it some way Or just put it on to of your STB.

Of course you could also run the coax /ethernet where you want it either DIY or if they don't include that in the install pay someone.

For those that don't know how to, in simple terms, to set it up as a new subnet, just plug the feed from the verizon router into the internet in on your router. the downside is anything connected thru your router isn't visible to the stuff on the verizon router and you can't use the moca to anything but your router.

To set it up as a switch (Adding more ports to an existing network) turn off DHCP on your router and connect the verizon router to one on the regular lan ports instead of the internet port. This way is probably the best option because everything is still on the same subnet.
Is there any mystery why people don't like MoCA. None of what you wrote made any sense to me!

... except for the bits about fishing wires through walls, which I have no interest in pursuing, since I didn't need to do that for Comcast HSI.
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Old 11-19-2009, 10:03 AM   #1889
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Okay, reading a bit more on this adapter. If I understand it correctly, essentially, it allows you to turn any coax port in your home into an Ethernet access point, as long as you have a MoCA router connected to the coax in your home. I suspect that I could plug a hub (or another router, configured without DHCP) into that adapter, and have the same effect.

All docs I've read talk about doing this with a NIM-100 -- I guess this is a replacement for that.

As it is, I'm not going to let them tell me to do that. They're going to put the router in my loft (there's a coax port there). I won't let them bury it in my basement. They can take their service and shove it if they cannot comply with that request.
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Old 11-19-2009, 10:11 AM   #1890
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Bicker--NIM100 has been discontinued for a long time (at least a year?). A couple of other companies now have products. I don't think the general public knows about MoCA. MoCA adapters are more expensive then wireless.

I'm surprised tivo doesn't include MoCA. Instead of buying a wireless tivo adapter for each unit you'd just buy one MoCA bridge to connect to your router (not required for FiOS customers with a MoCA router).

Your diagram suggests your coax is split twice before it gets to your loft. FiOS will check your signal strenght. I wouldn't be surprised they want to replace your splitters, maybe even replace some connectors. Is there an easy way to change your wiring so it goes to your loft then gets split to your bedroom?

edited to add--based on Dewitt's subsequent post I think the only issue will be if your coax has problems--damaged by a staple for example.

Last edited by lew : 11-19-2009 at 10:36 AM.
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