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Old 08-23-2009, 03:42 PM   #241
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Ask the studios. They control what content can be delivered digitally and what format it can be in. Netflix has no control over that.
fair enough. But it doesnt change the fact that its little more than a gimmick at this time. Something to say they have. Its not even a 1/2 a## service yet. IMO, Its even less than that at this point.
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Old 08-24-2009, 12:29 PM   #242
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A little too early!

I spoke a little too early. While the quality remains high with full bars most of the time, this weekend I got dumped back to the NPL multiple times out of the blue. We watched about 8 Heros episodes. Yes, I could resume playback after reconnecting to Netflix, but it was quite annoying that it would just jump back for no apparent reason. I had one occassion where the quality dropped to 4 bars (completely unwatchable!!!). I rewound quickly so it would resync and it came back to full bars.

I still say the powerline adapters make things much more stable. And, yes, on a power-outage I will lose the network (and it did blink once this weekend with all my A/V on UPS). I still believe there should be better buffering on Tivo's end to handle these brief network glitches.
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Old 08-25-2009, 08:46 AM   #243
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I also got bumped out to NPL 3 times on Sunday during the course of 2 movies. It's the kind of thing where I just find it a nuisance when I'm alone (as long as it quickly lets me resume), but if I had company over I would be embarrassed for Tivo.
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Old 08-25-2009, 09:22 AM   #244
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I also got bumped out to NPL 3 times on Sunday during the course of 2 movies. It's the kind of thing where I just find it a nuisance when I'm alone (as long as it quickly lets me resume), but if I had company over I would be embarrassed for Tivo.
My wife and I had that happen maybe half a dozen times over the weekend. But last night, we watched two shows flawlessly. No freezes, rebuffering, or bumps to NPL. Maybe they've fixed something. -- Doug
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Old 08-25-2009, 07:11 PM   #245
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I have had another great Netflix viewing experience using my XBox 360. It is so much more pleasant than when I had used my Tivo! Now I noticed I can pick the movies via the XBox and not have to use my computer to pick movies, that is so cool!

Tivo could have ruled this market with Netflix, but I think they screwed up. Finally Microsoft did something right! Using Netflix on the XBox is reason enough for non-gamers to get the XBox, granted it isn't a BlueRay player but the DVD player works fine.
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Old 08-25-2009, 09:50 PM   #246
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I have had another great Netflix viewing experience using my XBox 360. It is so much more pleasant than when I had used my Tivo! Now I noticed I can pick the movies via the XBox and not have to use my computer to pick movies, that is so cool!

Tivo could have ruled this market with Netflix, but I think they screwed up. Finally Microsoft did something right! Using Netflix on the XBox is reason enough for non-gamers to get the XBox, granted it isn't a BlueRay player but the DVD player works fine.
If all you want is a Netflix player, the Roku box is cheaper. It's $99 and it's getting the same features that the XBox currently has.

In case you don't know, you can't pick any movies on the 360's Netflix player. You can only pick recently released movies. There's no search capability.
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Old 08-26-2009, 12:47 AM   #247
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If all you want is a Netflix player, the Roku box is cheaper. It's $99 and it's getting the same features that the XBox currently has.

In case you don't know, you can't pick any movies on the 360's Netflix player. You can only pick recently released movies. There's no search capability.
True a Roku is less expensive than an XBox, but an XBox is also a DVD player. Besides, I already had the XBox so for me getting a Roku would be an added expense.

Yes I know I can't search for movies on the XBox yet, but being able to pick recently released movies on it is better than what Tivo can do.
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Old 08-29-2009, 12:47 AM   #248
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I spoke a little too early. While the quality remains high with full bars most of the time, this weekend I got dumped back to the NPL multiple times out of the blue. We watched about 8 Heros episodes. Yes, I could resume playback after reconnecting to Netflix, but it was quite annoying that it would just jump back for no apparent reason. I had one occassion where the quality dropped to 4 bars (completely unwatchable!!!). I rewound quickly so it would resync and it came back to full bars.

I still say the powerline adapters make things much more stable. And, yes, on a power-outage I will lose the network (and it did blink once this weekend with all my A/V on UPS). I still believe there should be better buffering on Tivo's end to handle these brief network glitches.
I had to login to post this...I have recently been encountering the exact issue you are describing. Part way into the show it will suddenly go gray screen for a second then the NPL will pop up. I have to go back into netflix and select replay on the episode we were watching...The reason I logged in to make this post is that we were also watching heros! Season 1. I wonder if there is something specific to the stream for this show...
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Old 08-29-2009, 06:54 AM   #249
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Had an odd thing happen last night, I used Netflix to watch Splinter and everything was fine until the last few minutes of the movie. The audio started making a loud ticking sound instead of the audio for the movie. I pressed the Live TV button to make sure my audio equipment wasn't to blame. I then resumed the movie but the ticking continued. I tried pausing, rewind, and fast forward but nothing helped. So I watch the last few minutes of the movie on mute so my speakers wouldn't be damaged by the loud ticking. The sound returned at the very end of the movie but the strange part was during the credits the audio for the part of the movie that had the loud ticking could faintly be heard playing in the background.

Anyone experience this when watching Splinter or any other movie?
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Old 08-29-2009, 07:07 AM   #250
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I had to login to post this...I have recently been encountering the exact issue you are describing. Part way into the show it will suddenly go gray screen for a second then the NPL will pop up. I have to go back into netflix and select replay on the episode we were watching...The reason I logged in to make this post is that we were also watching heros! Season 1. I wonder if there is something specific to the stream for this show...
Or it could be just that the Netflix server that has this particular show was having problems.

I tend to think it's Netflix server problems, since most reports seem to be over the weekend, and also it happens to me much more often over weekends and in prime time than the other times I watch.

I'm not saying that TiVo can't improve how it handles the network glitches, but that the base cause is probably on the Netflix server side.
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Old 09-11-2009, 09:51 PM   #251
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NETFLIX show stops

I just installed this tivo and have noticed the same problem as you folks.. dumping to the netflix menu and having to get back to the program to resume.

Having used the XBOX interface and a PC interface to netflix... it appears the the TIVO device does very little buffering and when there is a brief slow down... boom.. it jumps back to the menu.

If you pause a netflix show and watch your wireless connection, you will see that it pretty much stops receiving data at the same time.. This is why I believe it is a buffering issue.

If tivo changes their software to buffer a bit more and better handle slow downs, this problem can probably be corrected via software.
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Old 09-12-2009, 01:39 AM   #252
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If tivo changes their software to buffer a bit more and better handle slow downs, this problem can probably be corrected via software.
Don't hold your breath for Tivo to do this anytime soon, as they haven't make any attempt to fix the issue since Tivo got Netflix.
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Old 09-12-2009, 09:13 AM   #253
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Don't hold your breath for Tivo to do this anytime soon, as they haven't make any attempt to fix the issue since Tivo got Netflix.
Hey! That's the spirit!
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Old 09-12-2009, 09:20 AM   #254
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I've had the movie stop and drop back to the instant queue list a few times myself. Then when I select the movie again it picks up where it left off.

One time the picture froze on a movie but the sound kept playing. I kept retrying but the movie picture would not advance past the same point.
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Old 09-12-2009, 10:49 AM   #255
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I've actually noticed issues with Netflix starting this prior week with me. I'm not sure if it's because I dropped cable television from my BHN account and kept RoadRunner, and now have a trap in-between the source and my cable modem. I've noticed a difference in normal web browsing, for sure. What I've noticed with Netflix, there were 2-3 times where I've gotten the "Retrieving..." message in the middle of the content, when the streaming continued, it continued a few seconds earlier then where it stopped. Kind of like over-shoot correction when FF'ing or RR'ing. Sometimes the "correction" doesn't happen, and I miss a bit of dialog. Has anyone else seen this type of "correction" behavior? Should it be expected all the time?
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Old 09-12-2009, 10:49 AM   #256
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Don't hold your breath for Tivo to do this anytime soon, as they haven't make any attempt to fix the issue since Tivo got Netflix.
Well, we don't know what they have attempted. We do know they have not rolled out a fix. My take is that either it is not all that easy, or it is not in TiVo's control.

I had something similar happen watching Netflix on an LG blu-ray player. I got kicked out to the menu. The next time I tried watching the movie, the player froze and wouldn't restart, even after multiple power cycles. LG support declared it dead.

Now, it's likely the brand new LG player just picked that moment to die. It's also possible that the Netflix death ray works on more than just TiVos.

-- Doug

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Old 09-21-2009, 07:39 AM   #257
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Definitely Tivo's Problem

You can go back a read about my frustration with the Tivo/Netflix implementation, but suffice to say, I was about ready to give up...well I did. I bought an LG BD390 and installed it Last Friday afternoon. It is connected on the same powerline ethernet interface with a 4 port switch: one port for the Tivo; one for the BD390. I watched an episode of Heros and about 10 episodes of Lost this weekend and DID NOT WITNESS ONE PROBLEM!!!! In fact, every episode showed full bars and the HD symbol. WOW! This is the experience I wished for. It is so different than watching shows hoping that it doesn't just stop for no reason or go to low-def for no reason. Tivo can learn a thing or two from the other Netflix devices out there.
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Old 09-21-2009, 09:59 PM   #258
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My NetFlix on TiVo experience:

Horribly slow. It takes 90 seconds to 2 minutes for any menu to come up (video can be posted on YouTube if desired). This means a minimum of 2 minutes to just get to the first page of the watch instantly queue. 2 more minutes of painful waiting to get the next page of listings if your selection isn't on the first page.

Playback for me is typically pretty good, with full bars and no dropouts or crashes, but on some movies (Karate Kid 2 most recent example), it just won't play right, you get 10 seconds, then jump ahead a few minutes on its own, 10 seconds play, jump ahead, etc, etc). The same movie plays perfectly over the web on my laptop or Mac Mini home theater.

It was really embarrassing to try to have friends over to watch NetFlix the other day with this kind of behavior.

What I'm wondering is if the slow time to load menus is typical for other users. I've read the last several pages of this thread going back to July complaints, but mostly see issues of poor video quality.

My hardware is a Series 3 purchased new in December 2007, using cablecards. I am on an internal hardwired gigabit Ethernet LAN, which goes to a Verizon FIOS 20/5 WAN line. The TiVo's Ethernet cable is CAT 6 and goes through one hub/switch before hitting the router. The Router is MOCA attached to the ONT. I have a Mac Mini home theater attached to the same network switch and it has no networking issues to the outside world (hulu, netflix, downloads, trailers, etc), so I doubt networking is the issue.

What on earth could be taking 2 minutes to load a lousy menu. It seems like forever (I am just impatient..?). Is the Series 3 just that underpowered a CPU?

Any ideas I may have missed in the thread to speed things up?
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Old 09-22-2009, 12:26 AM   #259
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Menus are pretty fast coming up for my original S3. I only have about 40 entries in Instant Queue though.
With the original S3 it has been well established now that the H.264 & WMV decoders are sub-par compared to the newer THD hardware - there are some movies that will not decode/play properly with original S3 but in most cases work fine on THD. Despite numerous complaints and examples given to Tivo & Netflix nothing seems to be done about it however. It seems to me that Tivo has chosen to ignore this issue for the minority original S3 owners unfortunately...
I have to resort to using my laptop for those movies that don't play properly on the S3. However for movies that do work I have had no slowness or quality issues or too many dropouts to complain about.
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Old 09-22-2009, 07:27 AM   #260
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What I'm wondering is if the slow time to load menus is typical for other users.
Actually, I don't believe I've ever had to wait more than about 15 seconds for my Instant Queue to show up. I also see this on my BD390 Blu-ray. As for starting a show, Tivo seems to want to keep things a secret and just appears to be negotiating network speed. On the BD390, it shows a progress bar titled "Loading" which would indicate that it is buffering the show.

I'm using a powerline ethernet adapter and here is an observation. On the front are three LED's. One indicates activity. If I stream a show on Tivo, the activity light flashes the entire time while playing. If I pause, it stops after a second or so. This indicates that Tivo is contantly loading the stream and never filling it's buffer. If I watch the same show on the BD390, the activity light stops flashing on occasion and especially when there is little detail or change on the screen which would indicate that the BD390 is able to fill it's buffer at times. Obviously, Tivo is able to decode the stream fast enough, but it is not requesting data fast enough to keep the buffer full or the handshake between Tivo and the Netflix server is broken/poorly implemented. Someone had indicated previously that there were a lot of bad/retried/out of sequence (can't remember what they observed) packets. I also believe that Tivo's buffer is too small. However, when beginning a stream, both the Tivo and the BD390 take about the same amount of time.

.....just my observations.
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Old 09-22-2009, 10:39 AM   #261
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Actually, I don't believe I've ever had to wait more than about 15 seconds for my Instant Queue to show up.
.....just my observations.
Thanks for that. I really want to get a feel for what the "norm" should be for navigating through the menus and movie selections on things like this. Which TiVo do you have? Maybe this is a Series 3 issue?

15 seconds even sounds like a long time, but at least that would be tolerable considering you're essentially just a hitting a web-page, and I can load that web page in under 5 seconds and have the movie actually playing within 20 seconds on a computer attached to the exact same network/routers/switches.

Check out this YouTub video I posted (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8J0lD8A-k2E) of my TiVo loading NetFlix, then paging through one menu, then starting a movie. It takes 78 seconds just to get NetFlix app loaded, 72 seconds to get to the second page of movies in my queue, and 45 seconds for the movie to load and start once play is hit. Last night it took 4:17 from the time I hit the TiVo button to actually have a movie load. Not a huge amount of time in the overall scheme of life but still annoying.

Why on earth would it take less time for a movie to buffer and start then for a stupid text menu to load? and then 4:00 minutes.

If 78 seconds doesn't sound like a long time, try staring at the blank black screen in the YouTube upload while waiting for the system to respond, knowing that you're gonna have to go through it again to see the next menu page.

Since 15 seconds is achievable on other hardware, I'm open to suggestions on things to try. I've already tried rebooting the TiVo. I doubt it's networking, but any router settings that might help?
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Old 09-22-2009, 11:05 AM   #262
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I really want to get a feel for what the "norm" should be for navigating through the menus and movie selections on things like this. Which TiVo do you have? Maybe this is a Series 3 issue?
I don't use Netflix, but it's an HME application like Swivel Search, Amazon Video on Demand, etc., right? On my TiVos, any HME application is almost unusably slow, like what you describe. It's odd because I know those things work fine for many people. I think the "norm" is faster, but for some of us it is consistently slow - unfortunately I don't know why.
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Old 09-22-2009, 11:32 AM   #263
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I'm using a powerline ethernet adapter and here is an observation. On the front are three LED's. One indicates activity. If I stream a show on Tivo, the activity light flashes the entire time while playing. If I pause, it stops after a second or so. This indicates that Tivo is contantly loading the stream and never filling it's buffer.
This doesn't really give you the whole picture, for that you'll need to look at a bandwidth monitor on your router. I have done so and what happens is that the TiVo will try to download the stream data as fast as it can at first until the buffer fills up and then it slows down the download stream to trickle in just enough to keep the buffer near full. So while it is continuously downloading, it's just doing so to keep the buffer full.

I've actually found that there is about a 20 to 30 second buffer. I can't remember if this was for SD or HD though.
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Old 09-22-2009, 11:43 AM   #264
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Check out this YouTub video I posted (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8J0lD8A-k2E) of my TiVo loading NetFlix, then paging through one menu, then starting a movie. It takes 78 seconds just to get NetFlix app loaded, 72 seconds to get to the second page of movies in my queue, and 45 seconds for the movie to load and start once play is hit. Last night it took 4:17 from the time I hit the TiVo button to actually have a movie load. Not a huge amount of time in the overall scheme of life but still annoying.
Has it always been like this?

That's definitely not normal for a S3. Navigating the Netflix menus on my S3 is fairly quick and I'm using a wireless connection.

It looks like either there is an issue connecting to the TiVo servers from your TiVo DVR or there is a communication issue between the TiVo servers and the Netflix servers.

Here's a few things you can test:

1. Does the YouTube application behave the same way or does it load quickly? If it loads quickly, the problem is most likely between TiVo and Netflix. If YouTube is slow, then the problem is most likely between you and TiVo.

2. If YouTube is fast, try deactivating and re-activating your Netflix account on your TiVo.
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Old 09-22-2009, 11:48 AM   #265
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Last night it took 4:17 from the time I hit the TiVo button to actually have a movie load. Not a huge amount of time in the overall scheme of life but still annoying.
4:17

That is ridiculous. I would not be acceptable at all for me.

While I am certainly not a network guru, simple process of elimination can go a long way.

The only thing different between your setup and mine is you're using a gigabit ethernet and DSL. I have a Linksys WRT54GS running DD-WRT firmware and comcast cable and modem.

I wonder if Verizon (I assume) is causing some issue with the handshake between the Tivo and Netflix. I've read that the Tivo uses a different server and possible app to stream than that of PC's.

Is there something on your network that may be causing issues? I'm don't know how the handshake works, but it might be worth unplugging everything, but the Tivo on your network and try it.

If unplugging everything but the Tivo doesn't change anything, maybe find another cable to go from the Tivo to the router. I know you said after streaming starts things are pretty stable, but that can be deceiving.

Maybe before you try all that, you should connect your PC to the same connection as the Tivo or move the Tivo to a different port on your router. Could be the switch in the router is having some issues. I've seen switces do strange things when they are dying.

Good luck.
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Old 09-22-2009, 11:59 AM   #266
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This doesn't really give you the whole picture, for that you'll need to look at a bandwidth monitor on your router. I have done so and what happens is that the TiVo will try to download the stream data as fast as it can at first until the buffer fills up and then it slows down the download stream to trickle in just enough to keep the buffer near full. So while it is continuously downloading, it's just doing so to keep the buffer full.
Good point. I hadn't considered that. It certainly sounds like a plausible method to buffer the stream. I would then assume that the BD390 must trickle a little faster or have a smaller hysteresis since I see the activity light stop on occasion.

I guess there must be some other reason that Tivo is so susceptable to network changes. I mean I can count on one hand how many episodes of Heros and Lost I've watched on Tivo that didn't either renegotiate to uwatchable resolution, stop playing, lock-up or simply throw me back to the NPL. I've not seen one, again, not one of these things happen with the BD390. I'm no longer afraid to pause, FF or REW with my current setup.
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Old 09-22-2009, 12:02 PM   #267
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1. Does the YouTube application behave the same way or does it load quickly? If it loads quickly, the problem is most likely between TiVo and Netflix. If YouTube is slow, then the problem is most likely between you and TiVo.
Excellent suggestion!

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2. If YouTube is fast, try deactivating and re-activating your Netflix account on your TiVo.
I read that this corrected a problem for someone related to not being able to play anything. Again, certainly worth a try.
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Old 09-22-2009, 01:11 PM   #268
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My NetFlix on TiVo experience:

Horribly slow. It takes 90 seconds to 2 minutes for any menu to come up (video can be posted on YouTube if desired). This means a minimum of 2 minutes to just get to the first page of the watch instantly queue. 2 more minutes of painful waiting to get the next page of listings if your selection isn't on the first page.
What you describe here is very similar to the problem you are having with Tivo Search Beta. Because the issues are so similar, I don't know if I'd suspect either app at this time.

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Playback for me is typically pretty good, with full bars and no dropouts or crashes, but on some movies (Karate Kid 2 most recent example), it just won't play right, you get 10 seconds, then jump ahead a few minutes on its own, 10 seconds play, jump ahead, etc, etc). The same movie plays perfectly over the web on my laptop or Mac Mini home theater.
I have the same problem with the BBC Television series "The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy". I reported the problem to Netflix awhile back, but the episodes still exhibit the same behavior.
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Old 09-22-2009, 03:31 PM   #269
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What you describe here is very similar to the problem you are having with Tivo Search Beta. Because the issues are so similar, I don't know if I'd suspect either app at this time.
That's a good point! Two different apps behaving the same points to something other than the app. Now it sounds a bit like network, or an overall TiVo problem after all. I'd pretty much had my fill with TiVo last night after the Search Beta did it's number on me.

Someone else mentioned Swivel Search; that application works just fine for me.

I'll have to try YouTube when I get home tonight. It's not something I generally use on TiVo, but I think I've used it before and I don't remember being so frustrated. I'll also check out the podcast app.


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Originally Posted by orangeboy View Post
I have the same problem with the BBC Television series "The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy". I reported the problem to Netflix awhile back, but the episodes still exhibit the same behavior.
NetFlix used to send me an email asking how the video quality was on streamed videos, but I haven't gotten one of those in a while. I guess they've stopped(?). {edit: just got one on Casablanca play back for the test I did, but never got one for KK2. Maybe they don't do it for all plays.}

Why don't you try loading Karate Kid 2 (even if you have to hold your nose to do so, LOL), and I'll try Hitchiker's Guide and we can report back here if we had the same problem. That might reveal if they're just bad videos, or it's a random issue. KK2 played fine for me on the laptop, so it's TiVo related, but I'm curious if it's my TiVo, or all TiVos.
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Old 09-22-2009, 03:40 PM   #270
Distortedloop
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Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: San Fernando, CA
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Network tests in the TiVo setup menu always check out fine, but I'll do more network tests as suggested below.

Could my attached eSATA extra hard drive at all impact this? How could it? I'd be afraid to let the TiVo boot up past the warning it gives when it doesn't sense the external drive, as it warns you could lose recordings.

Quote:
Originally Posted by morac View Post
Has it always been like this?
1. Does the YouTube application behave the same way or does it load quickly? If it loads quickly, the problem is most likely between TiVo and Netflix. If YouTube is slow, then the problem is most likely between you and TiVo.

2. If YouTube is fast, try deactivating and re-activating your Netflix account on your TiVo.
I'll give those a try tonight.

Quote:
Originally Posted by jtreid View Post
4:17
If unplugging everything but the Tivo doesn't change anything, maybe find another cable to go from the Tivo to the router. I know you said after streaming starts things are pretty stable, but that can be deceiving.

Maybe before you try all that, you should connect your PC to the same connection as the Tivo or move the Tivo to a different port on your router. Could be the switch in the router is having some issues. I've seen switces do strange things when they are dying.

Good luck.
I've already got a Mac Mini computer hooked up to the same switch, so the only thing that might be different would be the actual physical cable between the TiVo and the switch. I'll try swapping it out just in case.

The only other thing I can think of trying is finding a really long cable and bypassing the switch altogether. After that I can try to borrow my neighbor's wireless connection to see if it behaves better. He's on TWC, I am on Verizon FIOS.
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