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Old 07-04-2009, 10:50 AM   #3151
richsadams
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Originally Posted by HerronScott View Post
DixonAgee,

I had something similar happen with one of my 2 Series 3 units. WinMFS would hang during the full copy but I was able to do a truncated backup and restore. At some point during the multiple attempts to do a full copy, the original drive registered a SMART error that the PC would report on boot and although it would still work when plugged back into the TiVo, any attempts to do a full copy with WinMFS or run the Western Digital diagnostics against it would hang.

Scott
Somehow I missed Dixon's post completely. I agree, it is likely data corruption and/or a bad sector if the copy is freezing at the exact same place each time.

Recordings that are not copy protected could be transferred to a computer via TiVo Desktop, etc., but it's likely that a full copy won't work and a simple image transfer will have to do (Section V, #18A).
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Old 07-04-2009, 10:51 AM   #3152
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Originally Posted by KevinSartori View Post
I just wanted to pop in here to say thanks! I upgraded my TiVo HD with a Western Digital Caviar Green WD10EACS 1TB drive back in December and everything has been running perfectly!
Good feedback and welcome to the club!
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Old 07-04-2009, 11:40 AM   #3153
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Hello, I'm new to the forum and have a n00b question.

I read the FAQ and had a questions about this step:

Quote:
Shut down Windows, turn off your computer, and connect only the original TiVo drive. You can open your computer and connect it with a SATA cable, or you can connect it externally with a SATA->USB adapter or a drive dock.
Can I use the external SATA hard drive enclosure to connect the Tivo drive and my replacement to the computer? I would like to avoid opening my computer to connect those drives.

Any info is appreciated. Thanks.
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Old 07-04-2009, 11:59 AM   #3154
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Can I use the external SATA hard drive enclosure to connect the Tivo drive and my replacement to the computer? I would like to avoid opening my computer to connect those drives.
If you install the hard drive in that external enclosure, and you have the means to connect that enclosure to your computer, then yes, you can.
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Old 07-04-2009, 12:33 PM   #3155
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Originally Posted by richsadams View Post
Somehow I missed Dixon's post completely. I agree, it is likely data corruption and/or a bad sector if the copy is freezing at the exact same place each time.

Recordings that are not copy protected could be transferred to a computer via TiVo Desktop, etc., but it's likely that a full copy won't work and a simple image transfer will have to do (Section V, #18A).
Rich, although it can take a while, it may be worth formatting the new 1TB drive in Windows to see if it fixes any sector errors. Not sure if NTFS or FAT32 matters...just see if a full format works. Then WinMFS may do a copy if the drive is now OK.

Just a thought.
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Old 07-04-2009, 04:52 PM   #3156
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Aam

Thanks to bkdtv for maintaining this great guide!

Some suggestions related to AAM in faq #31:

- It should mention that Hitachi Feature Tool doesn't support external drives connected via USB/firewire.

- An alternative tool worth mentioning is hddscan. This tool runs under windows and it does support some USB-connected drives.

http://hddscan.com/

My experience is that I have 2 different brands of external USB drives, buth using WD drives, and hddscan allowed me to change the AAM setting on both. Strangely is does not allow me to change features on my internal drives (an IDE Maxtor, and a SATA WD). HFT on the other hand does support my internal drives, but not the USB ones.
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Old 07-04-2009, 05:05 PM   #3157
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Originally Posted by KevinSartori View Post
I just wanted to pop in here to say thanks! I upgraded my TiVo HD with a Western Digital Caviar Green WD10EACS 1TB drive back in December and everything has been running perfectly!
Good to hear another confirmation, thanks. I'm upgrading a THD with a WD10EACS today.
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Old 07-04-2009, 05:27 PM   #3158
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Do not mount and/or Format

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Originally Posted by MPSAN View Post
Rich, although it can take a while, it may be worth formatting the new 1TB drive in Windows to see if it fixes any sector errors. Not sure if NTFS or FAT32 matters...just see if a full format works. Then WinMFS may do a copy if the drive is now OK.

Just a thought.
First the problem is most likely with the TiVo drive not the new drive. Even though it works if the copy is freezing at exactly the same point each time it's almost certainly a problem with the OEM drive as the new drive would not use the exact same sectors every time.

And just to be clear, Do NOT mount a TiVo drive in Windows. If you use the disk management included in Windows XP or Vista to mount the drive the Tivo Bootpage will be erased. If that happens there are tools to fix it so it's not a total loss but if you format the drive the image will be useless.

There are programs available like Spinrite that will attempt to repair bad sectors, but the cost is pretty high...about as much as a new hard drive. If the new drive is suspected it is not worth trying to repair it at all as it will more than likely have problems later as well. Best bet is to return the new drive for a replacement.

If there is an issue with the TiVo drive it might be worth trying TiVo's built-in diagnostics called Kickstarts to see if things can be resolved.

Last edited by richsadams : 07-04-2009 at 05:35 PM. Reason: Typo...aurgh!
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Old 07-04-2009, 05:47 PM   #3159
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Rich, I thought his issue was with the NEW Drive and not the OEM drive in the TiVo. I would never suggest "messing" with the original drive!
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Old 07-04-2009, 06:04 PM   #3160
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Rich, I thought his issue was with the NEW Drive and not the OEM drive in the TiVo. I would never suggest "messing" with the original drive!
Of course not, but there are folks that will follow and might think "Hey, that sounds like a good idea...it should work on my TiVo drive too...I'll try it!"

The odds of the failure happening at the same point every time being caused by the new drive are really low. Each time a drive is formatted and data is transferred different sectors are used based on head position, existing data/sectors used, any number of factors. That's why I think it's probably the TiVo drive that has an issue.

The same scenario pops up now and then when someone tries to transfer a recording from TiVo to their computer. The transfer fails at the exact same point every time. Although the recording seems to play on TiVo just fine, more often than not if the recording is carefully viewed you can usually see some brief glitch in the playback at the exact place the transfer stopped. That indicates some sort of data corruption. TiVo's error correction can overcome the problem, but during a bit-for-bit transfer the "glitch" can be fatal.

Again, if there is a problem with the new hard drive it's not worth dealing with IMO and it should be returned.
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Old 07-04-2009, 06:19 PM   #3161
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Well, it just depends on a bad sector being marked during low level formatting. If it was OK at the time of the factory format, and then shipped as being good, it could have a bad sector that would show up in the same place every time if it went bad after. A low level format can fix that. Some drive vendors do let you get to the low level format...I believe that WD and Seagate did. Not sure if the utils are still available online. Anyway, I guess the safest thing to say at this point is "never mind". New drives have plenty of bad sectors that are skipped during a factory format. You never know that they are there...and usually never neet to.
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Old 07-04-2009, 06:42 PM   #3162
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Well, it just depends on a bad sector being marked during low level formatting. If it was OK at the time of the factory format, and then shipped as being good, it could have a bad sector that would show up in the same place every time if it went bad after. A low level format can fix that. Some drive vendors do let you get to the low level format...I believe that WD and Seagate did. Not sure if the utils are still available online. Anyway, I guess the safest thing to say at this point is "never mind". New drives have plenty of bad sectors that are skipped during a factory format. You never know that they are there...and usually never neet to.
All good points. In my experience running servers and such (and even with my own computers), if I found a new hard drive with even minor issues and used it I always lived to regret it. Now I just give them back. Although these days it's not nearly as big a problem as it once was. QC has gotten much better even as the drives have gotten bigger...or maybe because of it...I've no idea.
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Old 07-04-2009, 09:01 PM   #3163
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All good points. In my experience running servers and such (and even with my own computers), if I found a new hard drive with even minor issues and used it I always lived to regret it. Now I just give them back. Although these days it's not nearly as big a problem as it once was. QC has gotten much better even as the drives have gotten bigger...or maybe because of it...I've no idea.
Yes...a little of both. Since the drives are now so big, there had to be a way of marking bad sectors...or even multi sectors and still ship the drive. Way back in the days of the first PC drives (5MB) they would just scrap them. As the capacity grew to 10MB and 20MB and even 40MB, they would find that a surface had too many bad sectors and just sell it as a 20MB drive...ie: they only made 40MB, etc and sold it depending on the number of good surfaces...or heads. On main frames, it was even worse, but then there were disk packs that you would change.

Anyway, enough about this. Anything further about my "work" would have to be a PM...one of your neighbors used to work for me. I was involved in Hard Drives when they first started and have made 45 trips to Japan in the process. I have seen so many improvements over the decades! Anyway, Hard Drives are actually what brought me from CA up to your area.
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Old 07-05-2009, 10:59 AM   #3164
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Yes...a little of both. Since the drives are now so big, there had to be a way of marking bad sectors...or even multi sectors and still ship the drive. Way back in the days of the first PC drives (5MB) they would just scrap them. As the capacity grew to 10MB and 20MB and even 40MB, they would find that a surface had too many bad sectors and just sell it as a 20MB drive...ie: they only made 40MB, etc and sold it depending on the number of good surfaces...or heads. On main frames, it was even worse, but then there were disk packs that you would change.

Anyway, enough about this. Anything further about my "work" would have to be a PM...one of your neighbors used to work for me. I was involved in Hard Drives when they first started and have made 45 trips to Japan in the process. I have seen so many improvements over the decades! Anyway, Hard Drives are actually what brought me from CA up to your area.
I've always wondered if having more "real estate" on HDD platters allowed for more variations such as bad sectors to be passed through. Seems that the manufacturing process has improved markedly as well...perhaps thanks to some of your hard work.

I also remember being so excited about buying a "huge" 540MB HDD (for about a $1/MB IIRC) and thinking I'd never need more space than that...ever. Ah, the good 'ol days.
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Old 07-05-2009, 11:42 AM   #3165
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i got a WD10EVCS from buy.com to upgrade my S3 and it arrived, box within a much larger box, rattling around with zero packaging. couldn't believe it.

although i know it's wise to check a drive in any case, i definitely need to w/ this one but have never done this so forgive my ignorant question!

would doing diagnostics via WD tools the best way to go? if yes, is the 'diagnostics for windows' at http://support.wdc.com/product/downl...id=610&lang=en what i want? - i don't need to do this in DOS, right?

i'll be doing the upgrade via usb/esata cable if that makes any difference.

is there another diagnostic i should be doing or which would be better to use?

thanks!
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Old 07-05-2009, 12:10 PM   #3166
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i got a WD10EVCS from buy.com to upgrade my S3 and it arrived, box within a much larger box, rattling around with zero packaging. couldn't believe it.

although i know it's wise to check a drive in any case, i definitely need to w/ this one but have never done this so forgive my ignorant question!

would doing diagnostics via WD tools the best way to go? if yes, is the 'diagnostics for windows' at http://support.wdc.com/product/downl...id=610&lang=en what i want? - i don't need to do this in DOS, right?

i'll be doing the upgrade via usb/esata cable if that makes any difference.

is there another diagnostic i should be doing or which would be better to use?

thanks!
Yes, let the drive warm up for a bit and you can use the WD tools to do a surface scan of the whole drive. In that way, any errors will be reported.

Some of the Software will not let you do all of the operations like a low level format, but you should just run the tests to verify that the drive surfaces are OK. OH and I have used both Windows and a self booting CD. Just be aware, that some of the DOS diagnostics will not "see" an HDD connected to USB, SATA, or eSATA ports, so Windows versions should be better in that respect.
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Old 07-05-2009, 12:15 PM   #3167
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I've always wondered if having more "real estate" on HDD platters allowed for more variations such as bad sectors to be passed through. Seems that the manufacturing process has improved markedly as well...perhaps thanks to some of your hard work.

I also remember being so excited about buying a "huge" 540MB HDD (for about a $1/MB IIRC) and thinking I'd never need more space than that...ever. Ah, the good 'ol days.
Price...I remember my first HDD as being 20MB and costing about $400! I am glad the TiVo 1TB drives are not $20/MB.
OH, remember the LBA discussions? I could never make people believe that the 20 bit addressing vs. 20 bit LBA did NOT make drives go from 128MB to 160MB! LBA only let you access the 160 MB capacity already there instead of the Cylinder Head Sector limits in 20 bits! But this is even more OT than we already are!

Anyway, I need to read some more stuff on my 3 TiVo HD's as I am looking for a few features that even my ReplayTV's have that the TiVo seems to be missing!
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Old 07-05-2009, 12:59 PM   #3168
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Just be aware, that some of the DOS diagnostics will not "see" an HDD connected to USB, SATA, or eSATA ports, so Windows versions should be better in that respect.
The WD diagnostic utility isn't seeing the USB-attached drive. It's showing up in USB Controllers w/ a yellow exclamation in device manager. I deleted that, rebooted, reattached drive, but get the same. What am I doing wrong?
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Old 07-05-2009, 01:12 PM   #3169
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The WD diagnostic utility isn't seeing the USB-attached drive. It's showing up in USB Controllers w/ a yellow exclamation in device manager. I deleted that, rebooted, reattached drive, but get the same. What am I doing wrong?
It means that the USB driver has not been installed in Windows, but are you using XP? SP3? Try a reboot with the USB drive attached and ON. It should say found new hardware. The driver should be installed before you did this at all and wonder if you ever had it installed. Are you using one of those USB to SATA convertors? If so, and you would have to if you are using the SATA drive, then you should have a driver for the adapter.
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Old 07-05-2009, 01:22 PM   #3170
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Price...I remember my first HDD as being 20MB and costing about $400!
Yeah -I remember going from 20MB to 60MB and nearly passing out from joy.

My first computer was an Osborne Executive luggable - about $2-2.5K if I recall, which was an incredible fortune for me at the time - running CP/M w/ a teeny-tiny green or amber screen. It was a big deal, not being techie at all (got it for business reasons) and having but a handful of female friends w/ a computer period. When I got my Netcom account there were so few women on the internet I had to quickly change my nick to something gender-vague because I was bombarded w/ emails. Funny times.
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Old 07-05-2009, 01:39 PM   #3171
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It means that the USB driver has not been installed in Windows, but are you using XP? SP3? Try a reboot with the USB drive attached and ON. It should say found new hardware. The driver should be installed before you did this at all and wonder if you ever had it installed. Are you using one of those USB to SATA convertors? If so, and you would have to if you are using the SATA drive, then you should have a driver for the adapter.
The drivers for the adapter are only for Mac and 98 - it says XP (I'm running SP2) can support w/out drivers and none are included on the CD. Computer didn't boot w/ HD attached but I'll try again. I know I'm doing something stupid - but there's a first time for everyone and this is my time!
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Old 07-05-2009, 03:45 PM   #3172
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I was booting on a slower desktop and wasn't patient enough. It did boot but showed up as 'unknown device' - didn't show up in disk management or in WD diagnostics utility. What do I need to do for it to be recognized?

I tried on my notebook which is much faster (but which I didn't want to tie up for this and the upgrade) but get the same thing.

I'm using these - http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00..._ya_oh_product - got 2 for the upgrade.

Dang. I either downloaded or got rid of 75% of my Tivo pgms to make the upgrade faster and was/am all ready to go but don't know what I'm doing wrong.
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Old 07-05-2009, 03:50 PM   #3173
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Yeah -I remember going from 20MB to 60MB and nearly passing out from joy.

My first computer was an Osborne Executive luggable - about $2-2.5K if I recall, which was an incredible fortune for me at the time - running CP/M w/ a teeny-tiny green or amber screen. It was a big deal, not being techie at all (got it for business reasons) and having but a handful of female friends w/ a computer period. When I got my Netcom account there were so few women on the internet I had to quickly change my nick to something gender-vague because I was bombarded w/ emails. Funny times.
Well, we used to live in Saratoga and went to Santa Cruz and Pacific Grove often. I ran CP/M as well with ...are you ready...ZCPR! I had this on an Apple][+ and my CM/M card was from a little known company called Microsoft. I wonder whatever happened to them?

P.S. I still have that stuff too!
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Old 07-05-2009, 04:11 PM   #3174
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The drivers for the adapter are only for Mac and 98 - it says XP (I'm running SP2) can support w/out drivers and none are included on the CD. Computer didn't boot w/ HD attached but I'll try again. I know I'm doing something stupid - but there's a first time for everyone and this is my time!
That is because Win98 did not support USB. Do you have other USB drives (perhaps for backup)? I ask as the MoBo BIOS should have an entry to enable USB. Does My Computer show anything? Perhaps WinMFS will see it. I hope the plugs are correct as these adapters end up with wires all over the place!

Also, if you do have a SATA controller on your PC MoBo, you could turn off the PC and add this new drive and see if it can be seen by Windows. This would be a good test as SOME of these USB to IDE/SATA converters have chip sets that only see a max of a 750GB drive. Do you have another drive that you can test in that converter...something less that 750GB?
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Old 07-05-2009, 05:08 PM   #3175
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That is because Win98 did not support USB. Do you have other USB drives (perhaps for backup)? I ask as the MoBo BIOS should have an entry to enable USB. Does My Computer show anything? Perhaps WinMFS will see it. I hope the plugs are correct as these adapters end up with wires all over the place!

Also, if you do have a SATA controller on your PC MoBo, you could turn off the PC and add this new drive and see if it can be seen by Windows. This would be a good test as SOME of these USB to IDE/SATA converters have chip sets that only see a max of a 750GB drive. Do you have another drive that you can test in that converter...something less that 750GB?
I use USB drives regularly, the largest 500GB - is that what you're asking? I'm not sure if my desktop has a SATA controller or not - it's about 4 years old I think - and maybe I'll open up the computer tomorrow and see. Right now I'm burnt - and sure I must be doing something very basic and stupid. No, I've no other drive to test w/ the converter - this is the first bare drive I've ever bought because I've used almost exclusively notebooks for 25 years. The desktop is just here as a backup I use maybe once/month.

I should be able to connect the bare drive to the cable, boot, and see the drive as something other than an unknown device w/out needing additional drivers, right? and without formatting or installing the drive to do that?

If that's the case, maybe I'll try to see if WinMFS will see it as you suggested. But if it does, then I'm going ahead w/out knowing the integrity of the drive. Would that be a Bad Thing? How long would it take for problems to show up if there is any issue w/ the drive?
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Old 07-05-2009, 05:23 PM   #3176
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If that's the case, maybe I'll try to see if WinMFS will see it as you suggested. But if it does, then I'm going ahead w/out knowing the integrity of the drive. Would that be a Bad Thing? How long would it take for problems to show up if there is any issue w/ the drive?
It's likely winMFS will see the drive even though you can't get it to show up in WD Lifeguard.

Use the new drive at your own risk of course, but I'm always amazed at how much physical abuse they can take in shipment. The heads are parked at the time so it would take a pretty hard blow to do some damage and even then it would be of the not spinning up variety. Since there's nothing touching the platters when it's disconnected nothing should have happened to them. If you were to drop it while it's running (head crash) that would be a whole other story.

Hopefully this isn't your delivery guy...

Special Delivery
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Old 07-05-2009, 05:36 PM   #3177
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Hopefully this isn't your delivery guy...

Special Delivery
Too funny - well not. I've got UPS packages that resembled tha

Going to try the upgrade now - and hope winMFS sees the drive and all goes well. If there's a drive issue I always have the old one to plop back in - but I'd hope it shows up before it's loaded w/ non-transferable movies, etc.

But after all, it's only TV!
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Old 07-05-2009, 05:40 PM   #3178
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I had thought that XP could not even see it. If a 500GB USB drive works, then XP should not have a driver issue...if the chipset on the converter supports 1TB drives. Not sure if XP does not see it, or if it just does not know what it is. WinMFS would be a good test to see if it sees it. If it does see the whole 1TB, then it is not the converter.

OH, Rich, the heads always crash when you power down. They go to a Landing Zone. Another big argument...is it better to go to a dedicated LZ, or let them fall where they last were used? A dedicated LZ (as on the WD) can be argued that the heads keep landing in the same spot!
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Old 07-05-2009, 06:53 PM   #3179
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WinMFS sees the Tivo drive just fine, but not the WD.

I did have the same WD drive I bought last year (yeah I know, I know) that I never got around to putting into the S3. I recently got a HD and so another drive so to upgrade both. So - I dug out the drive from last year (still unpackaged believe it or not) and tried that one. Also not recognized.

The cables I have got great reviews and people did upgrade their Tivos w/ them - so now I'm stumped.

Any ideas or do I just put my Tivo drive back and sleep on it?

Ack.
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Old 07-05-2009, 07:02 PM   #3180
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WinMFS sees the Tivo drive just fine, but not the WD.

I did have the same WD drive I bought last year (yeah I know, I know) that I never got around to putting into the S3. I recently got a HD and so another drive so to upgrade both. So - I dug out the drive from last year (still unpackaged believe it or not) and tried that one. Also not recognized.

The cables I have got great reviews and people did upgrade their Tivos w/ them - so now I'm stumped.
If you are connecting two drive to your a computer at the same time, how is this second drive connected? Are the TiVo and new drive connected in exactly the same way?

If you are connecting each drive in a different way, are you able to connect the replacement drive using the same method (and connection / port) as the TiVo drive? Have you tried rebooting your computer with the drive connected?

I assume you've confirmed that the drive is running (i.e. it has power). Some people do not realize that they need a second cable for power.
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