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Old 05-17-2009, 06:00 AM   #61
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Hehe.... interesting observations, but you could go a bit further with some of them: #2 prompts even more people to stick with the cable company provided DVRs, thereby meaning that each TiVo subscriber shoulders a greater burden for supporting TiVo's revenue stream than they would otherwise, meaning, essentially, that the incessant complainers are making it more likely that there will be more invasive advertising.
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Old 05-17-2009, 06:30 AM   #62
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Hehe.... interesting observations, but you could go a bit further with some of them: #2 prompts even more people to stick with the cable company provided DVRs, thereby meaning that each TiVo subscriber shoulders a greater burden for supporting TiVo's revenue stream than they would otherwise, meaning, essentially, that the incessant complainers are making it more likely that there will be more invasive advertising.
Until more and more ads are presented to fewer and fewer subscribers until ultimately the the point of diminishing returns is reached and the small pool of advertisers will dry up.
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Old 05-17-2009, 06:41 AM   #63
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At which time we'll all be forced back to cable/satellite company-provided DVRs. QED.
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Old 05-17-2009, 07:12 AM   #64
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At which time we'll all be forced back to cable/satellite company-provided DVRs. QED.
Or.... somebody will wake up and realize that there IS and will always be a market for "the best" product offering "the best" features even if it costs more.

Yes, TiVo has tried in the past to build its business based on the above premise and has not succeeded. But times have changed. Back a few years ago most people had no idea what a DVR was. Selling into that kind of market is difficult to be sure.

Heck, years ago most people didn't know what cellular telephones were and couldn't conceive of any reason to buy or lease such a thing for personal use. Now they are prolific, almost everybody knows what they are, and manufacturers can get high prices for many of them because they are perceived as "the best" and offer features that the users have been convinced that they "need" -- even if they don't make phone calls any better than the less expensive ones.

Today more and more users have been exposed to DVRs. The marketplace is different now. DVRs are becoming more and more of a "necessity" to the modern household. People are able to make meaningful comparisons of products. It just isn't the same as it used to be.

Given that, there will be more and more customers willing to shell out their cash for the "IPhone"s of the DVR world -- provided that the manufacturers don't shoot themselves in the foot by polluting them with things like advertising.
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Old 05-17-2009, 07:18 AM   #65
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Or.... somebody will wake up and realize that there IS and will always be a market for "the best" product offering "the best" features even if it costs more.
More unsubstantiated, self-serving rhetoric. If it isn't true, there is no way anyone can "wake up" and "realize" it, eh?

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Yes, TiVo has tried in the past to build its business based on the above premise and has not succeeded. But times have changed.
Indeed, they have: If anything, mass-market consumers are even bigger cheapskates than they were ever before.
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Old 05-17-2009, 08:00 AM   #66
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More unsubstantiated, self-serving rhetoric. If it isn't true, there is no way anyone can "wake up" and "realize" it, eh?
Your blustering that it "isn't true" doesn't make it untrue.

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Old 05-17-2009, 08:35 AM   #67
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It isn't blustering: It is calling you out on your unsubstantiated assertions. It doesn't make your comments untrue -- it makes them absent of the merit you implied they had.
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Old 05-17-2009, 11:49 AM   #68
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If it isn't true, there is no way anyone can "wake up" and "realize" it, eh?
So - we've gone from you inferring my statements are untrue

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It isn't blustering: It is calling you out on your unsubstantiated assertions. It doesn't make your comments untrue -- it makes them absent of the merit you implied they had.
to well maybe they are true but they have no merit.

Hogwash.

Go ahead and get the last word in - you always do - no matter how worthless it is. I'm done arguing with you.
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Old 05-17-2009, 12:20 PM   #69
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More unsubstantiated, self-serving rhetoric. If it isn't true, there is no way anyone can "wake up" and "realize" it, eh?

Indeed, they have: If anything, mass-market consumers are even bigger cheapskates than they were ever before.
If you truly believe there is "no market for 'the best' product offering 'the best' features even if it costs more", than please explain for me the success of the IPOD. IPODS are half again to twice as costly as their competing products, yet they outsell the whole industry by large margins. Why is that, exactly?
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Old 05-17-2009, 12:38 PM   #70
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Pause is my marriage saver. It allows me to stop the show when somebody interrupts to bring up some point.
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Old 05-17-2009, 12:50 PM   #71
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Or.... somebody will wake up and realize that there IS and will always be a market for "the best" product offering "the best" features even if it costs more.
We'll see how Moxi does - the sales of Moxi units and TiVos is currently the only realistic way to measure the public's interest in a stand-alone DVR.

Based on a decade of DVR history, I simply think that there is not enough of a stand-alone market. Which is really odd to me, but that seems to be how it is.

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Old 05-17-2009, 12:57 PM   #72
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... I'm done arguing with you.

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Old 05-17-2009, 01:10 PM   #73
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Don't get too happy, Bierboy. I'm done arguing with Bicker (who is now on my ignore list along with some others who's postings I consider worthless rubbish) but far from done expressing my disgust with the ever-growing proliferation of ads on the TiVo UI,
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Old 05-17-2009, 01:13 PM   #74
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If you truly believe there is "no market for 'the best' product offering 'the best' features even if it costs more", than please explain for me the success of the IPOD. IPODS are half again to twice as costly as their competing products, yet they outsell the whole industry by large margins. Why is that, exactly?
Mostly because they found a great way to incorporate the product (iPod) with an easy to use service (iTMS). They don't really sell on the features of the product, but on the build quality and ease of use (plus great ad campaigns).

The situation for TV delivery and music delivery is so different though that it's hard to compare the two markets.
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Old 05-17-2009, 02:55 PM   #75
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Why is that, exactly?
Ask Jonas Ridderstrale, and Kjelle A. Nordstrom.

And then ask yourself by TiVo wasn't able to do the same thing. (Hint: Look at the bank account of the company behind each product, at the time the product was first introduced.)

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Don't get so excited. I'll believe it when I see it.
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Old 05-17-2009, 03:18 PM   #76
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Imagine how much better the world would be if all this energy that's being spent on a disagreement over ads was focused on something more useful... like feeding starving children, protecting battered women, helping homeless animals... etc. etc. etc...

Lets face it, you cant go anywhere or do anything without seeing or having to deal with ads. Do I like paying $10 to see a movie then have to sit through ads for Coke, Fandango, etc.? Not really no, but I have the option to come in late, aka, 'fast forward' if you will, past those ads. You pay $5 for a magazine and guess what, over 25% of the content is... wait for it... ads! And you're paying to see them!

Look around your world and ask yourself if this is really that important. If it is, then cancel your Tivo subscription and cancel your tivocommunity.com membership, then move on. It's easy, I do it all the time with things that I don't agree with. There are always other options.

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Old 05-17-2009, 04:13 PM   #77
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My guess is that the people whining about Tivo's attempt to introduce ads are the same ones that grew up in an entitled world.

They didn't get up on a Saturday morning and run downstairs to the family TV to watch cartoons because that was the only day they were on.

I'm pretty much tired of the "me" generation that are only concerned with stupid crap, like hitting the pause button and having an ad appear.

Is that the only thing they have to worry about? They don't know what they are missing in life.
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Old 05-17-2009, 04:37 PM   #78
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My guess is that the people whining about Tivo's attempt to introduce ads are the same ones that grew up in an entitled world.

They didn't get up on a Saturday morning and run downstairs to the family TV to watch cartoons because that was the only day they were on.

I'm pretty much tired of the "me" generation that are only concerned with stupid crap, like hitting the pause button and having an ad appear.

Is that the only thing they have to worry about? They don't know what they are missing in life.
You guess wrong - at least in my case.

When I grew up the TV station didn't come on until noon on Saturday (there was only one). Which didn't matter because most of us didn't have a TV. If we watched it we went to my aunt's house - a popular place on Tuesday night when Uncle Milty was on.

When I grew up there were no more than four minutes of commercials in a half hour tv show. Most had less.

Entitled? Not on your life. I wore mostly clothes made by Grandma and they were handed down to my brother when I outgrew them.

So come up with another theory, mister. You got that one all wrong.

Or accept the fact that some of us genuinely feel that the ubiquitous ads on the TiVo UI -- for want of a more accurate term -- suck.


And, oh, we all understand that the use of the term 'whining' by posters without a decent vocabulary is intended to be a put-down. I don't whine, sir, I shout.

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Old 05-17-2009, 05:38 PM   #79
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The pause ads drive me crazy. They are bad enough that my wife noticed them and asked why they were there.

Regarding people mentioning the Moxi, I'm glad the Moxi came... TiVo really needs good competition and they haven't been innovative in years. When I hate something that TiVo does, it's nice to now be able to compare them to a real competitor and not a cable company.
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Old 05-17-2009, 05:46 PM   #80
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It will be nice once the Moxi HD DVR becomes competition for the TiVo HD. Right now, it isn't, because it is too expensive.
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Old 05-17-2009, 05:50 PM   #81
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I wouldn't be jumping for joy about the Moxi too much yet. After watching this video on YouTube, it looks like there are some deficiencies they need to work through: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2IkfygsJ6J0
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Old 05-17-2009, 07:18 PM   #82
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Or.... somebody will wake up and realize that there IS and will always be a market for "the best" product offering "the best" features even if it costs more.

Yes, TiVo has tried in the past to build its business based on the above premise and has not succeeded. But times have changed. Back a few years ago most people had no idea what a DVR was. Selling into that kind of market is difficult to be sure.

Heck, years ago most people didn't know what cellular telephones were and couldn't conceive of any reason to buy or lease such a thing for personal use. Now they are prolific, almost everybody knows what they are, and manufacturers can get high prices for many of them because they are perceived as "the best" and offer features that the users have been convinced that they "need" -- even if they don't make phone calls any better than the less expensive ones.
Today more and more users have been exposed to DVRs. The marketplace is different now. DVRs are becoming more and more of a "necessity" to the modern household. People are able to make meaningful comparisons of products. It just isn't the same as it used to be.

Given that, there will be more and more customers willing to shell out their cash for the "IPhone"s of the DVR world -- provided that the manufacturers don't shoot themselves in the foot by polluting them with things like advertising.
You are correct, but only if product is perceived by the consumers as the best. Has nothing to do with product being the best or substantially better than competition. The perfect examples are designer merchandise.
TiVo's incompetent marketing department spent 100's of millions and never made a dent in customer's perception of TiVo as being the best product.
After using TiVo for nearly 10 years, I'm not convinced that TiVo has the best product either.
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Old 05-17-2009, 07:22 PM   #83
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You are correct, but only if product is perceived by the consumers as the best. Has nothing to do with product being the best or substantially better than competition. The perfect examples are designer merchandise.
TiVo's incompetent marketing department spent 100's of millions and never made a dent in customer's perception of TiVo as being the best product.
After using TiVo for nearly 10 years, I'm not convinced that TiVo has the best product either.
You'll get no argument from me there.
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Old 05-17-2009, 07:26 PM   #84
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It will be nice once the Moxi HD DVR becomes competition for the TiVo HD. Right now, it isn't, because it is too expensive.
Admittedly, I know close to nothing about Moxi. But why you keep referring to $100 difference in prices as a big deal? Just a short while ago when gas was $4 a gallon it would take you $100 to fill-up your full size truck. How about dinner for two? I don't see a $100 as a big deterrent for people who are willing to shell out $700-800 for the CE gear.
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Old 05-17-2009, 07:28 PM   #85
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Pause is my marriage saver. It allows me to stop the show when somebody interrupts to bring up some point.
OMG - you have a wife as well who will just suddenly start back up on a conversation that happened hours or days ago because something just came out of the ever turning wheels in her head.
With pause we can now work over whatever was just churned out and get it behind us and then back to the show without missing anything.

Pause is indeed a win-win though sometimes the ad banner on the screen is way more interesting to me
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Old 05-17-2009, 07:32 PM   #86
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I don't see a $100 as a big deterrent for people who are willing to shell out $700-800 for the CE gear.
well to anyone thinking about buying their first standalone cable DVR. But for someone who has TiVo capable of HD already it seems more like dropping the money already spent on TiVo if they move on to Moxi. Personally I need something far more compelling them currently no ads on the interface.
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Old 05-17-2009, 07:41 PM   #87
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But why you keep referring to $100 difference in prices as a big deal?
I'd be more than happy for you send me the spare $100 bills you have sitting around the house.
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Old 05-18-2009, 06:50 PM   #88
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Question What's the problem with the ads ?

I really don't [FOR MORE INFORMATION ON COKE CLICK HERE] see what all the [SEE THE NEW LEXUS HERE] complaining is about. If somebody wants to promote a product [SEE THE LATEST ON THE MOXI DVR HERE] that is their right. I mean, we live in a capitalistic society [CLICK HERE FOR INFORMATION ON MCONALDS McCAFE] and ads will gradually [HAVE YOU TRIED BLU-RAY - CLICK HERE FOR MORE INFORMATION] migrate to all forms of communication and products[PRESS PAUSE TO TEMPORARILY DISABLE THESE ADS]
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Old 05-18-2009, 07:23 PM   #89
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Admittedly, I know close to nothing about Moxi. But why you keep referring to $100 difference in prices as a big deal? Just a short while ago when gas was $4 a gallon it would take you $100 to fill-up your full size truck. How about dinner for two? I don't see a $100 as a big deterrent for people who are willing to shell out $700-800 for the CE gear.
Price is enough of a deterrent that Beta lost to VHS. Though broadcasters and commercial companies didn't start to get rid of Beta until the last couple of years - they never adopted VHS. We had Beta because it was better.

Actually my parents still have their Beta and use it to watch their legacy (aka old) movies. The best thing about visiting them is all the classic Star Trek that looks so good on a Beta tape in a quality machine.

The problem is the average consumer is perfectly happy shelling out $10 - to $30 a month for a crapple (sorry meant cable) dvr that is usually not even HD, for a box they will never own that is certainly no equal to TiVo. Don't know about all the cable markets, but where I live the UI has ads. More than one and they make it hard to see the scheduled programs.

And of course the stand alone Moxi box itself has no ads, they are brand new and have a tiny customer base. Sure you can purchase a stand alone Moxi and get their guide service for 'free' (at $800 it better be free), and it does not have ads. We won't even discuss the boxes this same company makes for cable companies that have *gasp* ads... Must be the guide data supplier putting them there, Moxi would never allow that to happen to one of their boxes.

Assuming you actually get an actual service contract with the Moxi purchase, I would read it very carefully. Just where do they promise in writing that you will never see ads on the stand alone box they are selling? (I have not been able to find this in writing). I am hopeful someone can make this clear to me - after all, without a monthly sub base - what incentive do they have to keep you happy after you purchase their box?
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Old 05-18-2009, 07:31 PM   #90
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Price is enough of a deterrent that Beta lost to VHS.
Actually, consumer Beta died because Sony missed the boat on 4 and 6 hour tapes/record modes. Folks didn't care about quality but were desperate for more than a couple of hours of unattended recording.
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