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Old 01-07-2009, 09:20 PM   #31
dmbpj
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Man. I am finding that changing channels while in Native mode takes a long time for the TiVo to register the incoming feed.

Might have to use 1080i Hybrid.
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Old 01-07-2009, 09:29 PM   #32
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Originally Posted by dmbpj View Post
Man. I am finding that changing channels while in Native mode takes a long time for the TiVo to register the incoming feed.

Might have to use 1080i Hybrid.
It's your TV not the TiVo.
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Old 01-07-2009, 10:16 PM   #33
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Originally Posted by aindik View Post
Hmm. Is it possible that, before, TiVoHD was telling the TVs, somehow, that this was an anamorphic signal (i.e., "hey, TV, stretch this when you get it"), like anamorphic widescreen DVDs do, and that now, it's not? I don't know - I don't think my TV supports that flag if it exists.
I reported this in one of the 11.x bug threads. After the update, my Pioneer plasma started to believe every SD 480i 4:3 signal from the Tivo was anamorphic and in need of stretching. The Tivo is set to native output and connected via HDMI.

I can grab the Pioneer remote and manually change the aspect setting to 4:3 for these programs. But prior to 11.x, the Pioneer switched aspect ratio between HD and SD programming all by itself, like magic. I miss the magic.

Last edited by ghken : 01-07-2009 at 10:36 PM.
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Old 01-07-2009, 10:48 PM   #34
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Going back to native, I think the TV actually does a slightly better job with upscaling 4:3 SD content than the tivo unit. I tried playing back a recording with settings for native and for 1080i fixed, and getting the same "size" picture on the TV with both. And I *think* it's a bit better with the TV doing the scaling, but that could just be that particular source material. Who knows?
If you have to closely study it to tell the difference, then I'd say it might not matter. Enjoy the true 1080i programing, and enjoy the content of the SD programming even though it will never look as good as HD.
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Old 01-07-2009, 10:59 PM   #35
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It's your TV not the TiVo.
Ha. Well then man is my TV slow!


I am still fiddling with setting and just not sure what is best.
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Old 01-07-2009, 11:03 PM   #36
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Ha. Well then man is my TV slow!
Component and HDMI may have different results. Try using the one you aren't now and see if the speed is better.

My TV is much faster at switching resolutions with Component. I think HDCP is the culprit.
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Old 01-08-2009, 09:38 AM   #37
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I reported this in one of the 11.x bug threads. After the update, my Pioneer plasma started to believe every SD 480i 4:3 signal from the Tivo was anamorphic and in need of stretching. The Tivo is set to native output and connected via HDMI.

I can grab the Pioneer remote and manually change the aspect setting to 4:3 for these programs. But prior to 11.x, the Pioneer switched aspect ratio between HD and SD programming all by itself, like magic. I miss the magic.
When you have the TiVo set to 16:9, every 480i signal is in need of stretching. That's by design, I guess. Whether it has bars on the side or not is a function of the TiVo's aspect ratio setting, not your TV's.

When something is 480i 4:3, TiVo sends it as 16:9, either stretched, zoomed, or with TiVo-inserted side bars, depending on your aspect ratio setting.

The problem I am pointing out in this thread is that, in taking a 4:3 signal and turning it into a 16:9 signal with bars on the side, in the same resolution, you lose horizontal resolution (and, even if you don't, the word "Native" does not describe what the TiVo is doing to the signal before it gets to your TV).
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Old 01-08-2009, 10:42 AM   #38
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When you have the TiVo set to 16:9, every 480i signal is in need of stretching. That's by design, I guess. Whether it has bars on the side or not is a function of the TiVo's aspect ratio setting, not your TV's.

When something is 480i 4:3, TiVo sends it as 16:9, either stretched, zoomed, or with TiVo-inserted side bars, depending on your aspect ratio setting.

The problem I am pointing out in this thread is that, in taking a 4:3 signal and turning it into a 16:9 signal with bars on the side, in the same resolution, you lose horizontal resolution (and, even if you don't, the word "Native" does not describe what the TiVo is doing to the signal before it gets to your TV).
I understand what you are saying but I swear prior to the 11.x update my S3 did pass a 480i 4:3 signal through "natively" without stretching it to 16:9.
I know I did not change anything on my TV and also know that I had never seen the "to narrow" picture before. (It's taller than it is wide)

....very frustrating.
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Old 01-08-2009, 12:00 PM   #39
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It's your TV not the TiVo.
I while ago I ran some tests and I am convinced that when you change from a channel of one resolution to another, the TiVo send the new channel in the old resolution for a moment before sending it in the new resolution. This results in a delay. This would happen over HDMI and component.
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Old 01-08-2009, 12:01 PM   #40
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Man. I am finding that changing channels while in Native mode takes a long time for the TiVo to register the incoming feed.

Might have to use 1080i Hybrid.
After using Native and getting tired of the lag bouncing around stations and into the TiVo Central menu I finally just set it to 1080i. Hybrid is still going to change resolutions as you move around (which is where the lag comes from along with HDCP handshake)
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Old 01-08-2009, 03:39 PM   #41
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I while ago I ran some tests and I am convinced that when you change from a channel of one resolution to another, the TiVo send the new channel in the old resolution for a moment before sending it in the new resolution. This results in a delay. This would happen over HDMI and component.
I'm not sure what test you did but I do know there is currently a bug where the Tivo reports the resolution of the previous channel after changing.
http://forums.tivo.com/pe/action/for...ostID=10413005
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Old 01-08-2009, 11:28 PM   #42
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Originally Posted by aindik View Post
When you have the TiVo set to 16:9, every 480i signal is in need of stretching. That's by design, I guess. Whether it has bars on the side or not is a function of the TiVo's aspect ratio setting, not your TV's.

When something is 480i 4:3, TiVo sends it as 16:9, either stretched, zoomed, or with TiVo-inserted side bars, depending on your aspect ratio setting.

The problem I am pointing out in this thread is that, in taking a 4:3 signal and turning it into a 16:9 signal with bars on the side, in the same resolution, you lose horizontal resolution (and, even if you don't, the word "Native" does not describe what the TiVo is doing to the signal before it gets to your TV).
By using 'Panel' on the Tivo you are correct, you are not really getting the native signal - it is being rescaled by the Tivo, the image squeezed within a narrower area and side panels added.

Why not leave the Tivo set to 'Full' and therefore get the native signal sent to your television? Let the television handle the aspect ratio switching.
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Old 01-09-2009, 12:10 AM   #43
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Why not leave the Tivo set to 'Full' and therefore get the native signal sent to your television? Let the television handle the aspect ratio switching.
Or leave the Tivo set to Smart Screen and it will always output the video in its original ratio.
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Old 01-09-2009, 08:13 AM   #44
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I'm not sure what test you did but I do know there is currently a bug where the Tivo reports the resolution of the previous channel after changing.
http://forums.tivo.com/pe/action/for...ostID=10413005
That seems related, but the previous channel resolution was displayed only for a moment, when the screen went "buggy" ands then it would correct.

By "buggy" I mean it appeared that the resolution was misinterpreted, and the everything was stretched/squeezed/warped/distorted.

I could be wrong. I'll check it out at a time when I won't be irritating the hell out of the rest of the family.


On Edit - I posted about this a while back here is what I said

Quote:
I am fairly sure these "transitional flickers" are caused by the TiVo, not the TV.

My TV is set to Native. I am using HDMI.

During the transition to a channel with a different format , I can see program information for the channel I am changing to. The program information's size and location is changed, but it is still readable if you can read fast. In this distorted information panel I see the current format in the distorted information panel, and then the screen goes black, then I get the channel I switched to. When I press the info button, I see the correct format in the information panel.

What seems to be happening is this; I am watching 1080i, I switch to a 480i channel. The TiVo sends the 480i channel to the TV with a switch indicating it is 1080i. The TV chokes on this. The TiVo then sends the 480i channel with the switch indicating it is 480i. The TV is now happy.

So for that brief moment, TiVo is sending the wrong format switch, screwing up the TV.


Last edited by snash22 : 01-09-2009 at 08:19 AM. Reason: found earlier info
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Old 01-09-2009, 09:26 AM   #45
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Or leave the Tivo set to Smart Screen and it will always output the video in its original ratio.
This is what I'm doing now.

Unfortunately, this rule (native is really native in smart screen) only applies to video, not to the menus. The new TiVo Search beta menu and the Netflix menu are native in HD, but 4:3 smart screen native setting outputs them in 480i.
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Old 01-09-2009, 09:29 AM   #46
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Originally Posted by snash22 View Post
That seems related, but the previous channel resolution was displayed only for a moment, when the screen went "buggy" ands then it would correct.

By "buggy" I mean it appeared that the resolution was misinterpreted, and the everything was stretched/squeezed/warped/distorted.

I could be wrong. I'll check it out at a time when I won't be irritating the hell out of the rest of the family.


On Edit - I posted about this a while back here is what I said
I think what you're really seeing is your TV receiving 480i material while still, momentarily, in 1080i mode. When it realizes what it's getting, it changes the setting.

One way to test this is if you have a non-TiVo item where switching between resolutions is easy. Maybe an upconverting DVD player or a cable box.

Check the LEDs on the face of your TiVoHD. They seem to be a reliable indicator of the output resolution at any given moment.
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Old 01-09-2009, 09:31 AM   #47
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Why not leave the Tivo set to 'Full' and therefore get the native signal sent to your television? Let the television handle the aspect ratio switching.
Because sending my TV a 4:3 image that the source knows is supposed to be a 4:3 image sounds cleaner to me than sending my TV something that the source thinks is a 16:9 image that the TV morphs into a 4:3 image.

Also, because I prefer reading the menus in 4:3 because the fonts look more natural. (Other than the aforementioned new HD-ready menus on the Netflix app and the beta TiVo Search).

The downside of doing it this way is that my TV's zoom setting zooms in too much. In 480i letterbox content, just a bit of the top and bottom of actual content is missing. Also, zooming with the TV instead of the TiVo means the TiVo progress bar is half missing from the screen unless I change the aspect ratio before fast forwarding.
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Old 01-09-2009, 02:48 PM   #48
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Unfortunately, this rule (native is really native in smart screen) only applies to video, not to the menus. The new TiVo Search beta menu and the Netflix menu are native in HD, but 4:3 smart screen native setting outputs them in 480i.
I'm not getting the same thing. I have mine set to native / smart screen. My menus default to 480i, I just opened search and it went to 720p... which is odd because the channel it was on just before that was 1080i?!

edit: Please reply to the bug thread I just created if you or anyone else see's this resolution oddness http://tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/sho....php?p=6982463

Last edited by ciper : 01-09-2009 at 02:54 PM.
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Old 01-10-2009, 01:58 AM   #49
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Does anyone have a display that reports the full resolution of the input (i.e. 704x480 and not just 480i)?

If so, are SD channels output in 704x480i or 720x480i by the TiVo when native output is selected? Is this the same for both 4:3 smart and 16:9 (in full)?

Someone hasn't mentioned this...but there's really no such thing as a "completely" native output on any STB/DVR that I am aware of. Most SD channels on cable are distributed as 528x480i or 544x480i, and I'm fairly certain the TiVo only outputs 704x480i or 720x480i.

From what I can recall, the TiVo's OSD resolution display (Select-Play-Replay-Select) correctly reports 704x480 for 704x480 channels, but it reports 720x480 for other resolutions such as 528x480i and 544x480i. The actual resolutions can be confirmed by downloading the recording and checking it with a program like VideoRedo.
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Old 01-10-2009, 02:58 AM   #50
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edit: I have verified that the TiVo wastes a large chunk of resolution on black bars if you use the 16:9 screen setting and the panel setting with 4:3 SD programming. If you want the highest quality SD signals you will either need to use Smart Screen (which has other drawbacks) OR choose full on the TiVo aspect button and then use your displays "shrink" feature.
I posted the following here http://tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/sho...13#post6983613


Native with Smart Screen TV setting
Pros -
4:3 SD content output at 4:3
HD content output at 16:9
Cons -
Some menus in 480i while others in 720p
16:9 SD content also output at 4:3 (requires TV remote to "fill" screen)

Native with 16:9 aspect ratio TV setting
Pros -
All menus in 720p
HD content output at 16:9
16:9 SD content output at 16:9
Cons -
with full mode on TiVo. 4:3 SD content output at 16:9 which requires the TV remote to shrink the mislabeled video. You then have to unshrink the video when viewing a true 16:9 program

with panel mode on TiVo. 4:3 SD content has DRASTICALLY reduced resolution because black bars are sent with the video signal which is completely unacceptable. [/quote]




Can anyone verify how aspect ratio detection works with 480i signals? Is it 704x480 for 4:3 and 720x480 for 16:9?

However it works I have verified that the TiVo incorrectly marks 4:3 480i material as 16:9 if you have your aspect ratio set to 16:9 in the menu. If you have 4:3 smart screen enabled the TiVo will correctly flag 4:3 content as 4:3 but seems to fail at correctly identifying/outputting 16:9 480i content.

Combine this bug with one where choosing smart screen forces some of the menus into 480i and some of the menus in 720p and you get resolution changes in the middle of your navigation and you're forced to use 4:3 480i menus in order to get true 4:3 SD output at 4:3

gahh

Last edited by ciper : 01-10-2009 at 06:26 AM.
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Old 01-17-2009, 08:35 PM   #51
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Funny, just came across this thread the other day when setting up my new display - my goal was to ensure the scalar in the display was doing all the work, all the time. With my previous display I was running Native, but my 4:3 480i stuff was clearly not "native" since the trick-play bar spanned outside of the 4:3 area. Also oddly, at some point recently (upgrade to v11 of the TiVo Software perhaps? don't recall exactly) my tivo reconfigured itself to 720p fixed.

Anyway, when setting up my new display (JVC RS20 projector, I suspect the equivalent HD750 and similar RS10/HD350 devices will behave the same), I turned the letterbox color to grey to really help me see what was going on, and here's what I found worked best. This is on a TiVo S3 running 11.0-01-2-648, and it's connected via HDMI through a Monoprice HDMI switch. No video processors/AVRs between the TiVo and the JVC, just the switch.

- Aspect Correction Mode: Full
- Letterbox Color: Grey (so I know if I see grey, something's hosed - but I might go back to Black at some point)
- TV Aspect Ratio: 16:9
- Video Output Format: Native

On the projector I have "Aspect (Video)" as 16:9.

With this setup, my 480i 4:3 programs come in as 480i60, appear as 4:3, I don't see any grey pillar bars, and the trickplay bar is fully contained within the 4:3 area. So I believe I'm getting an unscaled 4:3 output for SD channels. Since I prefer OAR to stretching 4:3 to fill a 16:9 screen, this is exactly what I want. I don't yet know what I'd do if a 4:3 channel broadcasts a letterboxed show if I wanted to zoom that to fill my 16:9 screen, but with the prevalence of HD I doubt I'll even care. The main menus come in at 720p 16:9 and HD programming comes in and displays properly as well. I haven't perused the other menus (Netflix, etc) to see how the behave, nor have I played any Netflix content yet.

On my old display I must have had it configured to handle my "non-native" "native" 4:3 output (and I possibly had the tivo configured a bit diffetently too) but I guess back then I had hoped that the Tivo was sending out a 480i signal with more horizontal resolution to account for the expansion from the 4:3 aspect to the 16:9 aspect - but upon reading this thread I decided to not expect that. Anyway, hope this helps others and doesn't confuse matters further.
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Old 01-17-2009, 10:10 PM   #52
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TiVo's right -- but I wish it did something different

I agree with the above post: when you have TiVo configured with a 16:9 display and set it on 'native' and aspect on 'full' you get SD signals as 480i going to the display and HD signals being either 720p or 1080i. This is at least what I see over component outputs. I can then set my display to do whatever stretching mode I desire for SD programming (this has no effect on HD programming). I never use the TiVo 'aspect' mode and all is well and good (except for perhaps the stretching that TiVo does to the menu fonts -- but that is another matter).

Here is my problem: I have the 'composite' outputs running to a separate 4:3 set via a modulator. I have a problem when viewing HD source material in that while things look fine on the 16:9 set, everyone looks tall and thin on the 4:3 set. My wish is that TiVo:

1) Allowed the 'aspect' setting to function on the composite outputs for HD signals, even when it ignored it for component and HDMI outputs
2) Ignored the 'aspect' setting for composite outputs for SD signals, even when it paid attention to it for component and HDMI outputs.

Essentially I'd like to be able to set the composite output to 4:3, while the component and HDMI are set to 16:9 -- or more simply just have TiVo always assume the composite output is hooked to a 4:3 set. I guess this would mess up people who do use composite outputs to drive HD displays -- but does anyone actually do this?
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Old 03-03-2009, 10:15 PM   #53
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This is an interesting discussion. I hadn't occurred to me that Tivo was altering 4:3 material to add the black bars for 16:9 display. I played with the settings a bit and it definitely is doing that.

Practically speaking though, for those who value the simplicity of not having to fiddle with output modes and aspect ratio controls, if you have a 16:9 1080p display, I think a reasonable compromise is to just set your output mode to 1080i fixed. In that mode, no significant resolution should be lost due to the black bar insertion since the original 480i image is being upscaled to 1080i anyway.

I had actually intended to use "Native" mode when I first got my Tivo, since I have a 1080p display with decent processing which handles all resolutions. But I switched over to 1080i Fixed instead. My display is a little slow at switching resolutions, so the Fixed output eliminates those delays. Also when using Native and sending 480i and pressing pause, my display only shows one field as the paused image, i.e. only 240 lines of resolution, so 1080i Fixed gives me much sharper images on pause. The issues discussed in this thread give me yet another reason to stay with 1080i Fixed.

Does anybody really notice a significant quality difference between using Native and 1080i Fixed? It's hard to do an accurate A/B comparison when you only have a single Tivo and display, since it takes several seconds to switch modes. In my setup, I can't see a significant difference.
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Old 03-04-2009, 12:01 AM   #54
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On my 1080p display, 720p content looks much softer using 1080i fixed than it does in Native. Everything else looks fine in both.

I've switched to Native with 4:3 smart screen instead of 16:9 as the monitor type. I get the menus in 4:3, but they're formatted for 4:3 anyway.
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Old 03-04-2009, 12:22 PM   #55
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Good point about 720p. That seems like the biggest problem for the 1080i Fixed mode. In 1080i Fixed, the original 720p stream has to be interlaced by the Tivo, and then deinterlaced again by the display. I don't think that is lossless, since each 720p frame has to be converted to a 540-line 1080i field. Depending on how the interlacing and deinterlacing processing is done, there certainly could be a loss of vertical and/or motion resolution.

One thing Tivo could do that might help would be to add a new Hybrid mode which would output 720p native, and everything else at 1080i.

Update: I did some testing this eve with a few 720p channels and switching the output mode from 720p to 1080i. Given the delay involved in switching the output mode, I really couldn't see a difference. I'm sure a side-by-side comparison would be more effective, but that would require 2 identical tivos and displays. My conclusion for now is that I'm going to stick with 1080i fixed most of the time. If I'm watching a big sports event which is broadcast in 720p, then maybe I'll switch over to 720p just to be sure.

Last edited by spocko : 03-05-2009 at 02:10 AM.
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Old 03-04-2009, 12:27 PM   #56
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One thing Tivo could do that might help would be to add a new Hybrid mode which would output 720p native, and everything else at 1080i.
Yes, that would be great.
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Old 03-04-2009, 12:40 PM   #57
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Good point about 720p. That seems like the biggest problem for the 1080i Fixed mode. In 1080i Fixed, the original 720p stream has to be interlaced by the Tivo, and then deinterlaced again by the display. I don't think that is lossless, since each 720p frame has to be converted to a 540-line 1080i field. Depending on how the interlacing and deinterlacing processing is done, there certainly could be a loss of vertical and/or motion resolution.

One thing Tivo could do that might help would be to add a new Hybrid mode which would output 720p native, and everything else at 1080i.
I used to say two more options would be ideal:
1080i SD Upconvert (HD @ Native, SD @ 1080i)
720p SD Upconvert (HD @ Native, SD @ 720p)

Or, better yet, an advanced (or "custom") menu that lets us pick the output resolution for each of the four source resolutions (480i, 480p, 720p, 1080i).

But that was because I thought 480i content looking terrible was the result of my TV not dealing well with it. Now I know that it's a result of TiVo compressing it to squeeze in black bars, I just eliminated that and use the real native (4:3 smartscreen native).

I do wish the zoom mode on my TV was as good as the zoom mode on the TiVo. The zoom mode on my TV is a bit overzealous with cutting off too much of the top and bottom. With 4:3 smart screen, I can't use the TiVo's zoom mode on 4:3 content in a letterbox.
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Old 03-04-2009, 02:01 PM   #58
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Or, better yet, an advanced (or "custom") menu that lets us pick the output resolution for each of the four source resolutions (480i, 480p, 720p, 1080i).
That would really be the best way to handle it.

One would think that it should be pretty straight forward since technically the box already has all the functionality and therefore it would just be a matter of writing the UI with the appropriate mappings to the code behind the scenes.
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Old 03-04-2009, 06:15 PM   #59
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I agree. Time to send this feature request to Tivo.

http://research.tivo.com/suggestions/
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Old 03-23-2009, 02:39 PM   #60
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Has anyone tried this with an AV Receiver? I have one that does video upconversion and wanted to see if any one thought what the best results are.
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