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Old 06-14-2008, 11:47 AM   #811
fallingwater
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Originally Posted by JJ View Post
Back in the day
TiVo innovated for thier customers. New features and fixes were focused on customers, not corporate partners. Things like folders,

Why would TiVo annoy thier cable partners by implementing a way for customers to easily access the FCC required clear channels. Cable Card rentals and digital tier packages are profitable and TiVo is being careful not to provide customers with a way to cut thier cable bill. If consumers don't buy the TiVo product, all they have is a handful of patents and lawyers to defend them.

Adding TiVo software to a cable box is a nice technical accomplishment but if there was really a huge groundswell of demand, it would be in general release today not endlessly testing.

TiVo seems focused on something other than thier customer. Most companies who do that fail. Will TiVo realize the folly of partnership with Evil Cabe Companies before they lose thier 'soul'? Customers who already purchased hardware and service made TiVo, Inc. what it is today. TiVo could toss us a bone, or they can choose to feed thier partners...
TiVo is walking a tightrope as it seeks to make a profit and at the same time keep its cable providers and customers satisfied. DVR Service isn't the cash cow envisioned during the early years. TiVo is the last standalone DVR survivor and still hasn't generated consistent profits.

Apart from cable/satellite DVRs, an increasing number of services now offer programming downloads from the internet, in direct competition for the same pool of entertainment dollars.
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Old 06-14-2008, 12:15 PM   #812
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They're allowed to charge you for a second CC.. But it sounds like the first CC is the 'free' one that counts instead of a cable box, for example..

Since both CCs are in _one_ device, I don't believe they're allowed to charge you an extra outlet fee. (If you had two CCs, one in each Tivo HD for example, they would be allowed to.)
Comcast CSR's used to 'wing it' at first, regarding CC pricing. We got free CC's with no 'additional outlet fees' for more than a year.

Now, pricing policies are being more closely adhered to. 'Additional outlet fees' are published in Comcast's printed price schedule available at the local Comcast store. For better or worse Comcast's current pricing is at least consistent and understandable.

http://www.comcast.com/Customers/FAQ...s.ashx?Id=2651
http://www.comcast.com/Customers/FAQ...ls.ashx?Id=222
http://www.comcast.com/customers/faq...ls.ashx?Id=261

Comcast's Triple Play is a pretty good deal, overall. We've found it to work well with no technical problems. The new phone modems provide scorching internet speeds when connected directly to a PC. (8000+ Kb/sec.)

Comcast's one year promo rate for Triple Play is $130 ($147 after taxes and fees) and besides fast internet provides unlimited phone to US & Canada and the complete digital cable line-up w/HBO & Starz. When the year is up the price w/fees & taxes will be around $170.
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Old 06-14-2008, 02:41 PM   #813
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Actually, the technical problems are quite real.

I'm not sure where you come off assuming that Tivo is a bunch of liars because they haven't satisfied your particular need - Tivo has come out and said that clear QAM is on the map, but waaay waaaay down on the list.

Instead, you see fit to call the employees that are nice enough to spend time here keeping us informed a bunch of liars. Awesome.

Personal attack aside,
if the market were really clamoring for 'Comcast TiVo' it would be in general release today, warts and all. Somehow Comcast cutomers deserve a more bug free and stable DVR than those of us who purchased retail hardware? A bitter pill...

TiVo/Comcast appear to have a mutual defense pact and if you are not a customer that provides extra profit you are the enemy. If Comcast were to pass the FCC mandated PSIP data and TiVo allowed this information to be processed from the OTA data there would not be a 'Clear QAM' issue to discuss...
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Old 06-14-2008, 09:41 PM   #814
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What personal attack? You call folks liars without a shred of evidence to back up your assertions, then say that point that out is a personal attack.

I've got no idea what you're getting on about by saying that "comcast customers deserve a more bug fere and stable DVR..."

Instead of your gigantic conspiracy theory that you seem to have, you should try looking at the facts, or at least provide some facts of your own to back up your wild statements. Tivo/Comcast have a mutual defense pact? C'mon, get real.
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Old 08-07-2008, 07:43 AM   #815
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Just to add to this frustration, it now appears that the channel scan of cable channels will no longer retain the clear-QAM channels in the Channel List since 9.4 update.

My post:

http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb...d.php?t=401616
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Old 08-28-2008, 11:08 AM   #816
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I just spoke to Time Warner here in NYC and they told me that my basic service plan doesn't have HD channels even though I'm watching it everynight on my TV's ATSC/QAM tuner. If I get the cable card, they said that it will block those HD channels like ABC, NBC, CBS etc. So now I'm feel screwed as I just ordered a Series 3. I don't want to spend an extra $40 a month just so I can record those HD channels that I get now for $13. It really stinks that TiVo won't allow you to manually map the channels. Has anyone heard back from Tivo about this issue?
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Old 08-28-2008, 11:14 AM   #817
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The way I understand the FCC rules on this is that you cable company is legally required to offer the digital versions of the analog channels (when available) in their most basic service level. This means that they cannot block the HD channels with your service package, cablecard or no.

Somebody correct me if I'm wrong.
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Old 08-28-2008, 01:54 PM   #818
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Zimm is correct. Clearly the CSR was not very knowledgeable (as evidenced by the contradiction between what he said and the channels you watch all the time on your clear QAM tuner). The CableCARDs will enable correct channel mapping to your local HD rebroadcasted channels, so the TiVo can fully utilize them (with guide data). The CableCARDs will not block them.
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Old 08-28-2008, 02:02 PM   #819
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This is how I watch....lifeline package from Comcast, one M Card, local HD on QAM.

Pardon my stupidity, but if a able operator decides to go all digitial after, or as part of the OTA transition, does that possibly mean that the laws and regulations regarding clear QAM become moot? I.e., if Comcast chooses to go all digital, will I all of sudden have no channels (my current analog locals plus the rebroadcast local HDs via clear QAM?

I'm confused on how the transition could effect QAM if at all.....

...from a regulations perspective.
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Old 08-28-2008, 02:36 PM   #820
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Well, I think they're making the case that they're offering you digital as oppose to HD. that's a big difference. Just because they offer you a digital SD signal doesn't mean they have to offer you a digital HD signal.

I hope they don't play this game of segregating the two and making people pay a two tier service!
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Old 08-28-2008, 04:51 PM   #821
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if a able operator decides to go all digitial after, or as part of the OTA transition, does that possibly mean that the laws and regulations regarding clear QAM become moot?
Nope, the laws still apply.

Note that cable companies are not required to carry the digital versions of local broadcast stations; but if they choose to, they must be unencrypted and available on the most basic tier of service.

FCC Sec. 76.901 (link):

Quote:
"The basic service tier shall, at a minimum, include all signals of domestic television broadcast stations provided to any subscriber ..."
FCC Sec. 76.630 (link):

Quote:
"Cable system operators shall not scramble or otherwise encrypt signals carried on the basic service tier."

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Old 08-28-2008, 05:39 PM   #822
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The way I understand the FCC rules on this is that you cable company is legally required to offer the digital versions of the analog local broadcast channels (when available) in their most basic service level.
Fixed your post. (The rules you're referring to apply to local broadcast channels.) Also, it should be noted that some MSOs consider the requirement to carry the HD signals deferred until February. Reasonable people disagree about that, so you may experience it either way.

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This means that they cannot block the HD channels with your service package, cablecard or no.
For cable networks, they can offer channels as they see fit.
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Old 09-29-2008, 09:47 AM   #823
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Quick question. In my dorm I really have no control over the cable, but it is Cox basic with the clear QAM network channels. They do map the channels to the correct numbers so that they appear just as their OTA HD counterparts. If If I only care about these HD QAM channels and not the rest of the SD cable, can I tell a TiVo HD it's getting an antenna signal and it will work, maybe by plugging the cable line into the antenna input? Or is this wishful thinking?
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Old 09-29-2008, 10:15 AM   #824
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No. The antenna connection is connected to an antenna tuner. The Cable connection has a cable tuner. Feeding the cable signal to the antenna tuner will not find the clear QAM signals, although it might find some of the cable analog signals.
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Old 10-08-2008, 11:04 PM   #825
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You know what gets me about this issue? I just tried to see if I could get OTA HD channels so I can get the guide data for those channels. As I suspected I have very bad reception. What I did notice is that all of the channels it was kinda able to tune mapped to the exact same channels that the QAM channels show up at in the guide. I kept the OTA channels in the guide although I can't tune them and they provide the guide data for the QAM channels that appear right below them.

What this tells me is that Tivo is obviously capable of mapping the local HD's to their equivelent OTA channel assignment but they just refuse to link the OTA guide to them.

I know everyone is just going to say "Just get the cablecards and be done with it". I really don't feel like getting these troublesome things when it seems like all Tivo has to do is allow the OTA guide data to map to the QAM channels.

/rant
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Old 10-09-2008, 11:46 AM   #826
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My feeling has always been that most cable plants keep screwing up the clear QAM settings, accidentally or on purpose. Time Warner Cable clear QAM channels used to correspond to their channel listings (CBS-HD on 805, etc.) About FEB 14, 2007 that changed, although they didn't ever admit that changes were made.

They refuse to admit that they have to support clear QAM tuners at all and refuse to release a clear QAM channel listing, probably because they would then have to publish changes to said listing.

Among the settings that some have seen are numbers listed 805, OTA PSIP #'s like 7-1, other numbers that appear to match freq-subchannels assignment 104-1, and sometimes just 0.

I think Tivo probably ahs figured that this would be a mess to wade into. I hope that the FCC will eventually look at clear QAM support, at which time Tivo will fall in line.
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Old 10-09-2008, 12:18 PM   #827
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...[They] refuse to release a clear QAM channel listing, probably because they would then have to publish changes to said listing.
To be clear, there is no requirement to publish a clear-QAM channel listing (and you should really bring that up to the FCC if you're concerned about it), and there is cost associated with any publishing of any information whatsoever, so unless there is a demonstrable profit advantage to publishing that information I see no reason to expect it to be published.

Regarding PSIP, as noted elsewhere, the requirement is to pass-through PSIP data provided to the MSO by the broadcaster. So first step is establishing that the feed that the broadcaster provides to the MSO actually has proper PSIP in it. Not easy, I'll grant you that, but that's the way things are. These kinds of concerns are too limited in scope to be satisfactorily address by CSRs on the line. Focus your attentions on corporate customer service, and/or engineers once you get access to them.
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Old 10-09-2008, 05:20 PM   #828
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I think Tivo probably ahs figured that this would be a mess to wade into. I hope that the FCC will eventually look at clear QAM support, at which time Tivo will fall in line.
The solution may be nearer than you think.

At this point, the best hope for a solution to this problem is the tuning resolver. Although this device is usually discussed in the context of SDV, there is no technical reason it must be limited to this purpose. The TR is a very simple device. It maintains a channel map of all the cable virtual channel numbers and sends that to the TiVo upon request. The TiVo then sends the TR a virtual channel number whenever it wants to change channels, and the TR responds with a set of RF tuning parameters (frequency, subchannel, etc). If the TR needs to communicate with the headend to resolve an SDV request, it does so before responding.

The TR is not limited to resolving only SDV channels. It can resolve any channel. A CableCARD is not needed since the TR maintains its own channel map.

All that is required here is for TiVo to not tie support for the TR to the presence of CableCARDs, and for your cable company to agree to send you a TR even if you are unaffected by SDV.

As soon as TRs start showing up, someone can easily test this and we'll know if TiVo supports it. If not...we'll have a new letter writing campaign to focus on.

(By the way, here is a link to the TR specs).
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Old 10-09-2008, 05:48 PM   #829
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Here are some quotes from the spec regarding the use of the TR for non-SDV channels and without CableCARDs:
Quote:
The Tuning Resolver (TR) consists of the hardware and software required to allow a UDCP device to tune both linear and SDV programs
Quote:
The TR and CableCARD operate independently of each other.
Quote:
The TR then sends the channel table to the UDCP in place of the [CableCARD channel table] data.
Quote:
For datatype_id 13 the UDCP sends an existing DH_pubKeyH for a currently bound CableCARD. For a UDCP that is not bound to a CableCARD, the UDCP may [long description of what to do if no CableCARD]

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Old 10-09-2008, 07:57 PM   #830
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My feeling has always been that most cable plants keep screwing up the clear QAM settings, accidentally or on purpose. Time Warner Cable clear QAM channels used to correspond to their channel listings (CBS-HD on 805, etc.) About FEB 14, 2007 that changed, although they didn't ever admit that changes were made.

They refuse to admit that they have to support clear QAM tuners at all and refuse to release a clear QAM channel listing, probably because they would then have to publish changes to said listing.

Among the settings that some have seen are numbers listed 805, OTA PSIP #'s like 7-1, other numbers that appear to match freq-subchannels assignment 104-1, and sometimes just 0.

I think Tivo probably ahs figured that this would be a mess to wade into. I hope that the FCC will eventually look at clear QAM support, at which time Tivo will fall in line.
Interestingly enough, when my local Time-Warner realigned the clear QAM a couple of months back, they changed the QAM HD channels to match the OTA channel ids.
So QAM 2.1 is same channel as OTA 2.1.
But the channel IDs don't quite match.

OTA KCBSDT is id'ed at KCBS-DT on QAM.
OTA KNBCDT is iding as NBC4-LA on QAM.
OTA KABCDT is iding as KABC-DT on QAM.

Bizarre.
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Old 10-09-2008, 08:15 PM   #831
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The solution may be nearer than you think.

At this point, the best hope for a solution to this problem is the tuning resolver. Although this device is usually discussed in the context of SDV, there is no technical reason it must be limited to this purpose. The TR is a very simple device. It maintains a channel map of all the cable virtual channel numbers and sends that to the TiVo upon request. The TiVo then sends the TR a virtual channel number whenever it wants to change channels, and the TR responds with a set of RF tuning parameters (frequency, subchannel, etc). If the TR needs to communicate with the headend to resolve an SDV request, it does so before responding.

The TR is not limited to resolving only SDV channels. It can resolve any channel. A CableCARD is not needed since the TR maintains its own channel map.

All that is required here is for TiVo to not tie support for the TR to the presence of CableCARDs, and for your cable company to agree to send you a TR even if you are unaffected by SDV.

As soon as TRs start showing up, someone can easily test this and we'll know if TiVo supports it. If not...we'll have a new letter writing campaign to focus on.

(By the way, here is a link to the TR specs).
That would be great, but if my system will not get SDV in the near future, there will be nothing in the cable system for the tuning resolver to talk to.
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Old 10-10-2008, 08:14 AM   #832
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Interestingly enough, when my local Time-Warner realigned the clear QAM a couple of months back, they changed the QAM HD channels to match the OTA channel ids.
So QAM 2.1 is same channel as OTA 2.1.
But the channel IDs don't quite match.

OTA KCBSDT is id'ed at KCBS-DT on QAM.
OTA KNBCDT is iding as NBC4-LA on QAM.
OTA KABCDT is iding as KABC-DT on QAM.

Bizarre.
Comcast Pittsburgh did the same thing here six months ago. It actually helps when doing manual recordings. I can't get my local ABC station OTA, but I keep it in my channel list just to see the guide/program info. Then when I set up the manual recording I know to select the WTAE-HD station, not the WTAEHD station.
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Old 10-21-2008, 10:30 PM   #833
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Just hack you S3 and map QAM on your own...

http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb...threadid=61830
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Old 10-22-2008, 10:39 PM   #834
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Do you have any evidence that that's actually possible on S3? There haven't been any new posts in that thread for a long time.
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Old 10-22-2008, 10:43 PM   #835
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Do you have any evidence that that's actually possible on S3? There haven't been any new posts in that thread for a long time.
Yes. It's actually possible.

You'll have to google 'other tivo forum' to find more though.
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Old 10-23-2008, 01:43 AM   #836
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Thanks Adam. It is possible to hack one's TiVo to get QAM channel mapping to work, but of course that method isn't for everyone. You have to be technically inclined, and deal with replacing a soldered chip on the TiVo motherboard, which utterly voids your warranty. I continue to advocate for an elegant solution, one that even my mom and dad could use (who by the way would both buy a TiVo HD if only it would support the clear QAM channels they already watch daily and which they already pay for, without requiring any more $$$ be sent to their cable company). It shouldn't requiring hacking to record what we already pay for and which we can easily view on our TVs. But that's just me...
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Old 10-26-2008, 10:37 PM   #837
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No QAM PSIP? File an FCC complaint

If you're using a QAM tuner and you're not getting program data or your channel mappings/allocations are not working, file a complaint with the FCC. Tell them your cable company is not sending QAM PSIP data.

https://esupport.fcc.gov/sform2000/f...orm_page=2000F
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Old 10-27-2008, 06:43 AM   #838
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To be clear: If you're getting PSIP channel mappings/allocations but not program data, then the fault is generally with the broadcaster, not the cable company.
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Old 10-27-2008, 10:53 AM   #839
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Originally Posted by flatpanelgeek View Post
If you're using a QAM tuner and you're not getting program data or your channel mappings/allocations are not working, file a complaint with the FCC. Tell them your cable company is not sending QAM PSIP data.

https://esupport.fcc.gov/sform2000/f...orm_page=2000F
That's all well and good but even if the broadcasters and cable companies do everything perfectly we still won't have guide data for QAM channels on our TiVos.
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Old 10-27-2008, 12:37 PM   #840
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Not to mention that filing an FCC complaint is next to useless in this case, because they've never shown an inclination to enforce this. Which is sad, because it would make all clear QAM capable devices a lot easier to use.
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