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Old 08-07-2008, 09:51 PM   #1651
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DHR View Post
I'm in the process of downloading the SD programing to my PC for future upload and it looks like I'll have to visit Best Buy and invest in a WD DVD Expander to ensure a good Olympic experience.

Do you have a Costco membership ($50, if not)? I saw the Costco Expander $139.99 (ship/handling included), same price at the stores.
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Old 08-08-2008, 12:39 AM   #1652
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Originally Posted by sbessel View Post
I searched over there, and it seems I can use dd to copy it, but it appears what I am asking is not a common question... strange... but I guess most people upgrade and stay.
You should be able to use dd to make an exact copy and IIRC a couple of folks have done that successfully. But AFAIK that would only work on a like-for-like situation. I don't recall anyone trying to use it to switch/upgrade their eSATA drive to another model/size, etc. Once the eSATA drive is married to the internal drive it would be looking for the same drive as TiVo recognizes drives by the model number. It's worth a try, but I wouldn't get my hopes up. Let us know how it goes if you give it a shot.
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Old 08-08-2008, 08:48 AM   #1653
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I got 9.4 last night and my 750 MB FAP is working just fine.
Nice new additions to the software.
Interesting that I have 5 TiVos and the one with the 750 MB FAP is the only one with 9.4 so far.

So much for all the worrying.
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Old 08-08-2008, 03:03 PM   #1654
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Boy, did I have a scare today. Last night Tivo downloaded 9.4 to my Series 3 with a FAP 750. This has been working perfectly for over one year. The screen said Tivo did not recognize my external drive so I did a hard start twice and got the same message. I was about to ditch the FAP but then I thought I would unplug both the Tivo and FAP. The FAP was plugged in first and then the Tivo. Voila, it booted up correctly. Hope this helps anyone who is having this kind of trouble. Don
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Old 08-09-2008, 01:32 AM   #1655
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I've had an FAP 750 running for several months, trouble-free. I'm still on 9.3. I got the message on 7/31/08.
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Originally Posted by richsadams View Post
We'll stay tuned. Let us know if you run into any issues w/v9.4 will you? According to TiVoJerry, it's the FAP 750's that are problematic, but no mention of the 500GB or 1TB models. TIA!
Yup, my S3 got 9.4 sometime in the last 24 hours, too. My FAP 750 continues to work like a champ. Keeping my fingers crossed…
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Old 08-09-2008, 02:31 AM   #1656
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Hmm…perhaps I spoke too soon. Tonight, I had the S3 recording the Olympics Opening Ceremony. We started watching it, from the beginning, about an hour or so after the program began, zipping thru the ads as usual. After an hour or so, we moved on to other activities, but let the recording continue. Shortly after the recording finished, I selected the recorded program from the Now Playing List so that we could resume watching where we had left off.

To my surprise, clicking the Play button resulted in :
Error playing a recording
The Tivo Digital Media Recorder was not able to record this program because there was no video signal on the channel. You may have been trying to record on a channel that you don't receive.
I had never seen this message before and the channel in question (105 on Seattle Comcast) has always been reliable—not to mention that we had been watching the dang show without any problem.

I don't see any connection, other than the timeline, between the FAP warning and the contents of this error message. Could it be the 9.4 update?
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Old 08-09-2008, 07:01 AM   #1657
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To my surprise, clicking the Play button resulted in :
Error playing a recording
The Tivo Digital Media Recorder was not able to record this program because there was no video signal on the channel. You may have been trying to record on a channel that you don't receive.
I don't see any connection, other than the timeline, between the FAP warning and the contents of this error message. Could it be the 9.4 update?
i got this too last night on a recording of a baseball game. first time i'd ever seen it.

getting some "external drive not recognized" errors this morning as well.

i don't want to get all tinfoil hat, but i just can't imagine it's a total coincidence that so many people who have run their FAP 750 for over a year without incident are now experiencing these problems within hours of getting an ominous warning from TiVo.

As I type, i've just gotten the "Serious Problem" green screen for the second time in a week.

something very very curious about the timing of all this if you ask me.
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Old 08-09-2008, 08:15 AM   #1658
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9.4 seems to be a solid upgrade so far. But I read with complete bafflement about the FAP problem some seem to be having. Particularly when the FAP worked OK for over a year and then boom not working anymore with error message not seen before.

My Hitachi 750 with the Antec MX1 seem OK but other have spoken too soon so I will keep an eye on it and report any problem seen.

I will test the Olympic Opening Ceremony later on today, having seen it last night.
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Old 08-12-2008, 03:31 PM   #1659
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I am still shopping for a 1TB drive to go into my Antec MX-1.
I understand from FAQ #27 that the new version of the WD10EACS is not intended for DVRs:

Quote:
The retail Western Digital WD10EACS was removed from this list because the
latest version of that product no longer includes the WD10EACS-32ZJB0.
The retail WD10EACS now includes the WD10EACS-00ZJB0 which will not
work as an internal drive upgrade to the Tivo Series3. If you want the
1TB Western Digital drive, you should buy the new WD10EVCS instead.
But, other than the internal drive upgrade issue on the Tivo Series3, what is there not to like about this drive?
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Old 08-12-2008, 03:55 PM   #1660
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But, other than the internal drive upgrade issue on the Tivo Series3, what is there not to like about this drive?
Nothing. WD10EACS is the only 1TB drive I would buy at this time, for both TiVo and PC applications.
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Old 08-12-2008, 05:09 PM   #1661
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Hmm…perhaps I spoke too soon. Tonight, I had the S3 recording the Olympics Opening Ceremony. We started watching it, from the beginning, about an hour or so after the program began, zipping thru the ads as usual. After an hour or so, we moved on to other activities, but let the recording continue. Shortly after the recording finished, I selected the recorded program from the Now Playing List so that we could resume watching where we had left off.

To my surprise, clicking the Play button resulted in :
Error playing a recording
The Tivo Digital Media Recorder was not able to record this program because there was no video signal on the channel. You may have been trying to record on a channel that you don't receive.
I had never seen this message before and the channel in question (105 on Seattle Comcast) has always been reliable—not to mention that we had been watching the dang show without any problem.

I don't see any connection, other than the timeline, between the FAP warning and the contents of this error message. Could it be the 9.4 update?
I'm glad to report that there have been no further problems with my S3, 9.4 and FAP750.
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Old 08-12-2008, 08:00 PM   #1662
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I'm glad to report that there have been no further problems with my S3, 9.4 and FAP750.
Great news! Thanks for keeping us up to date.
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Old 08-13-2008, 08:45 PM   #1663
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I just ordered a WD10EACS for internal use in my TiVo HD. The EACS was cheaper then the EVCS, and it appears to be about the same (or better) noise wise if I adjust the AAM with the Hitachi tool.

Am I going to regret that?

It looks like I should be fine...

Last edited by Agent86 : 08-13-2008 at 09:03 PM.
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Old 08-13-2008, 11:22 PM   #1664
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I just ordered a WD10EACS for internal use in my TiVo HD. The EACS was cheaper then the EVCS, and it appears to be about the same (or better) noise wise if I adjust the AAM with the Hitachi tool.

Am I going to regret that?

It looks like I should be fine...
Perfect for the Tivo HD. If you get the new 3 platter version, all the better. BTW, already posted here as working in the Tivo HD.

Please post the extended model number you receive and from where purchased.

Newest 3 platter version, model# WD10EACS-006DBO.

"Older" 4 platter model# WD10EACS-00ZJB0.
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Old 08-14-2008, 03:29 PM   #1665
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Cool Pulled the FAP750

I finally divorced the FAP750 from my S3 - ran extended error tests on it and found many bad sectors. Clearly at least SOME of my problems were related to a bad drive, not the software!

On a high note - I just completed the replacement of my internal drive with a WD10EVCS 1TB and married it with an Apricorn 1TB DVR Xpander. Whole thing went off without a hitch using WinMFS 9.1. Booted up great the first time. I now have a 2TB S3 with 265 hrs of HD/2512 SD!

I chose not to use the Supersize option, since it said it was new, didn't really explain what it did, and I figured I didn't need to risk it for only an additional 13 hours HD per terabyte.
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Old 08-14-2008, 03:47 PM   #1666
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I finally divorced the FAP750 from my S3 - ran extended error tests on it and found many bad sectors. Clearly at least SOME of my problems were related to a bad drive, not the software!

On a high note - I just completed the replacement of my internal drive with a WD10EVCS 1TB and married it with an Apricorn 1TB DVR Xpander. Whole thing went off without a hitch using WinMFS 9.1. Booted up great the first time. I now have a 2TB S3 with 265 hrs of HD/2512 SD!

I chose not to use the Supersize option, since it said it was new, didn't really explain what it did, and I figured I didn't need to risk it for only an additional 13 hours HD per terabyte.
Thanks for continuing to keep us posted and congrats on the upgrade! I've used the Apricorn DVR Xpander and it worked flawlessly. Even though it has a fan it did get pretty hot, but never once caused any issues.

MFS Supersize simply frees up extra space reserved for storing tivoclips; the advertising videos that are downloaded. You can turn it on and gain a little more space any time...not that you'll probably be needing it!
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Old 08-16-2008, 12:53 PM   #1667
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Western Digital does have an AV drive that is bigger than 500GB, by the way.

There is no problem using a bare so-called AV or DVR drive in a PC. They are simply capable of the additional ATA 7 Streaming Command Set (including the urgent bit). If you send them regular read/write commands they respond like a regular drive as far as error recovery goes. This is why all these drives (Maxtor QuickView, Seagate DB35, and Hitachi CinemaStar) were all all originally considered OEM drives by their manufacturers. They were intended to be sold to companies to design and build a DVR or other consumer electronics device around. They are only of advantage to a host that makes use of the specific streaming commands. The TiVo does not use the Streaming Command Set and treats the drive like any other.

Some unscrupulous retailers started reselling them at premium prices on the secondary market boasting of their DVR performance (the 1TB CinemaStar initially had a several hundred dollar premium over the functionally equivalent DeskStar when there was only one vendor reselling OEM stock). They do have the advantage of already having the head seek performance acoustically detuned but most regular drives (save Seagate) can have that done manually with no price premium.

There is no technical reason that drives couldn't default to a lazy error recovery (as with the RAID edition of some drives) in response to normal commands. A RAID would always want the non-aggressive error recovery since the RAID controller itself is the arbiter of error correction not the drive and there is no standard RAID command set that could be used. A DVR drive on the other hand sometimes needs full error recovery capability for operating system and database issues. Hence the optional Streaming Command Set standard that DVR manufacturers and drive manufacturers have agreed to. Seagate even says they can deliver the AV drive with whatever error recovery level the OEM requires as default or just use the standardized Streaming Command Set to activate it as needed. Hitachi has now gone one step further than the AT 7 standard with their AV-Zoning on the newest CinemaStars (unfortunately, that is non-standard).

The bottom line is that the future TiVo Series 4 four tuner model may have some use for the streaming functionality of a AV drive (if designed to capitalize on it) but current TiVo models don't make any use of it.

Here's some light reading for anyone interested in the subject: See Section 4.17 Streaming Feature Set of the AT Attachment with Packet Interface - 7 Volume 1 - Register Delivered Command Set, Logical Register Set (ATA/ATAPI-7 V1) document.
Hi jlib, many thanks for posting all of this information. I was curious about another peculiarity of the DB35 series, though...

On page 31 of Seagate's Product Manual for the DB35 drives, they mention responding to a command called "Read DMA without retries (C9h)" which is not listed in the streaming command set (in fact it is listed as "obsolete" in the spec you link to above). But it sounds like it would be perfect for TiVo's needs as a conditional replacement for the regular "read DMA" command without having to implement support for a whole new command/feature set. There are other similar "without retries" variants of some of the other read commands as well.
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Old 08-16-2008, 05:06 PM   #1668
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On page 31 of Seagate's Product Manual for the DB35 drives, they mention responding to a command called "Read DMA without retries (C9h)" which is not listed in the streaming command set (in fact it is listed as "obsolete" in the spec you link to above). But it sounds like it would be perfect for TiVo's needs as a conditional replacement for the regular "read DMA" command without having to implement support for a whole new command/feature set. There are other similar "without retries" variants of some of the other read commands as well.
I can only hazard a guess and that is was a ATA 1 (when it first appeared) single-word DMA era relic, a performance enhancement that was no longer needed with the transition from ATA 4 (40 pin cable, Ultra DMA 2, 33.3 MB/s) to ATA 5 (80 pin cable, Ulta DMA 4, 66.6 MB/s), when it received obsolete status. The fact that the command has been obsoleted since the beginning of the century pretty much means there is no practical use for it. Reading from memory (even with wait states and retries) is not going to compare to the bottleneck reading or writing to a hard drive with errors might cause. So, it is probably something not worth excercising brain cells on.
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Old 08-19-2008, 11:13 AM   #1669
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Hi

I have a Tivo Series 3
antec mx1 with Hitachi Deskstar 1000Gb HDS721010KLA330
and a seagate free agent pro 750 gig

With the MX-1 Hitachi combo after about 30 minutes Tivo will reboot or hang or pixilate with the mx1 and Hitachi. It is unwatchable.

Divorce the esata everything runs perfectly.

Plug in the Seagate and it runs perfectly for 3 weeks until I received the rma'd Hitachi drive.

Installed the rmna'd drive in the mx-1 and what do you know?

The new drive exhibits the exact the same problems, reboots freezes and pixilation.

I have run the Hitachi advanced tests on the bare drive and it passes all tests.

Ran the tests in the mx-1 and it fails.

Soo, I plug in the Seagate Free Agent and everything is fine now for the last 8 days.

Please help would like to use the Mx-1 and Hitachi Deskstar.

Thanks for listening
Ed
Follow up.

Got the RMA for my MX-1, that has fixed the above problems.

It's running perfectly for 2 weeks.

Thanks for your help
ed
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Old 08-20-2008, 10:40 PM   #1670
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I can only hazard a guess and that is was a ATA 1 (when it first appeared) single-word DMA era relic, a performance enhancement that was no longer needed with the transition from ATA 4 (40 pin cable, Ultra DMA 2, 33.3 MB/s) to ATA 5 (80 pin cable, Ulta DMA 4, 66.6 MB/s), when it received obsolete status. The fact that the command has been obsoleted since the beginning of the century pretty much means there is no practical use for it. Reading from memory (even with wait states and retries) is not going to compare to the bottleneck reading or writing to a hard drive with errors might cause. So, it is probably something not worth excercising brain cells on.
I'm not sure what these comments have to do with my original point which is that the DB35 drives implement 3 flavors of read commands and 2 flavors of write commands (some of them DMA and some of them non-DMA) which all have the modifier "without retries". The key feature of the command that I mentioned was that it had that "without retries" modifier, not that it was DMA.

A set of commands that works without retries would be great for video streams to avoid locking up the drive with unnecessary error handling and that has nothing to do with memory bandwidth or obsolete forms of DMA, but everything to do with keeping the drive accessible during time-critical reads and writes of non-bit-for-bit-critical video data.

I'm not sure about ATA-1, but some older ATA documents that I read listed the command codes as forms of read and write, but didn't state their exact functions, claiming that they weren't for use by hosts. The DB35 drives list the commands with descriptions and lo and behold those descriptions are very appropos for the needs of video data. They are only listed as "obsolete" in later documents that describe more advanced forms of media streaming support and I can imagine that in the presence of a whole architecture aimed at video streaming that a couple of commands that simply omit error recovery are going to be relatively obsolete.

The comments I was responding to were statements that since TiVo boxes don't implement the new media streaming feature sets then various "DVR" drives don't have any features that would help. In this case I'm pointing out a small set of very simple commands on the DB35s that might indeed help even if the TiVo software doesn't implement the newer all-out media streaming support.
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Old 08-21-2008, 06:52 AM   #1671
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It is very rare to have memory with errors (most regular PCs don't even have error correcting circuits in their memory modules). It is no wonder those memory read and write commands are obsoleted. But it is not uncommon for hard drives to develop errors which could be problematic for recording data that has a near realtime urgency. What you seem to be looking for is a RAID Edition drive. Western Digital makes the best ones. That way you will get the default lazy error correction without needing the TiVo to implement commands that are not in its design.

The ideal scenario will be if the next generation TiVo implements the streaming commands (particularly the urgent bit) for recordings and regular commands for more critical operating system functions (allowing full use of DVR drive features). As it is now, one has to choose one or the other. Either a standard/dvr drive that uses aggressive error correction with the TiVo or a RAID Edition drive that has Time-Limited Error Recovery. There is even a utility that will adjust the TLER on WD drives that do not have it enabled by default. This is starting to get out of the scope of this thread but you can find more info doing a search on TLER.
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Old 08-21-2008, 08:09 AM   #1672
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DVR Expander on sale again!

A quick note (I also noted this in the "Expander on sale" thread), but both Amazon and Newegg have discounted the Expander to $135 this morning. I am jumping in today.

I ordered from Amazon as the 1m SIIG cable is $12+ versus $14+ from Newegg. Also, I don't know if the cable would have qualified for free shipping at Newegg (though the drive would have).

The free Super Saver shipping at Amazon should get the drive to me on/around Friday, September 5-Monday, September 8. Though some shows start before that, the bulk start the week of the 22nd.
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Old 08-21-2008, 10:17 AM   #1673
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Buy.com has This $129.99 deal for a 1TB WD GP drive. At least, that's the drive they've been using so far. You can knock the price down further with a 5% coupon to bring the price down to $124 -ish shipped.

There is some talk that they've been using a new 3 platter version of the 1TB drive - model #WD10EACS-006DB0.

The previous was the old 4 platter design we know and love (or not. i.e., us S3 owners) - model #WD10EACS-00ZJB0.

So a bunch of you get this to find out and if it's the new drive version, then install them in your S3's and let us know what happens. I don't ask for much.
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Old 08-21-2008, 12:15 PM   #1674
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That looks like a clear out of the 4-platter version. Just 4 months ago Buy.com was selling them for $50 more and that was a pretty good deal then. This one should be irresistible (even if it is from buy.com).
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Old 08-21-2008, 12:41 PM   #1675
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But your link to Buy.com goes to a Calvary CAIS01000.
That's not even on the approved list at FAQ #27...
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Old 08-21-2008, 01:12 PM   #1676
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Calvary is a Value Added Reseller (VAR). Western Digital is their Original Equipment Manufactuer (OEM). You can count all the actual drive manufacturers on one hand.
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Old 08-21-2008, 02:24 PM   #1677
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Quick question, I know it should be ok either way, but is there a perferred orientation for the expander drive (vertical or horizontal)?

My cat sometime likes to try and climb into the space around where the equipment is and a horizontal orientation will be more sturdy.......
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Old 08-21-2008, 02:47 PM   #1678
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But your link to Buy.com goes to a Calvary CAIS01000.
That's not even on the approved list at FAQ #27...
expanding upon what jlib has said, all Calvary has done is added their backup software to this Western Digital drive. You don't need to use it though.

As one of the user reviewers states: "Ditch the software (unless you're actually buying this for a backup solution) and use the drive for media storage".
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Old 08-21-2008, 03:19 PM   #1679
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Tips on moving a WD 500g Expander from a SA 8300 HD to TiVo HD or S/3

Tips on moving a WD 500g Expander from a SA 8300 HD to TiVo HD or S/3

Everything says recorded data is lost moving between LIKE machines. But what about startup capabilities on a Second manufacturer's recording machine?

Are the "boot" sequences the same? Do both recorders use the same data storage formats? same indexing? Is the drive automatically reformatted everytime it is plugged in to a new serial number? any firmware or SW on the drive, or all via the recorder?

What are the "good practices" for a user before he turns in his cable box and "just" wants to move his previously working drive to work on his TiVo? What else might one do to maybe "try" to save some programs?
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Old 08-21-2008, 03:33 PM   #1680
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Tips on moving a WD 500g Expander from a SA 8300 HD to TiVo HD or S/3
Moving an external drive from SA 8300HD to a Tivo is not going to preserve any recordings. The Tivo will just see it as a new drive and ask if you want to start using it. You cannot even move drives between Tivos (for different reasons).
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