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Old 07-02-2008, 11:47 AM   #631
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Originally Posted by jkalnin View Post
I could walk across hot coals, pierce myself with hundred of needles, or even cut off one of my body parts.
What? I didn't know those were options. How do I do this because that would be easier than dealing with TiVo CS. For the record I have not heard from TiVo they haven't called me back from my earlier 1.5 hour on-hold then hang up on me wait. Not surprised, just reporting the situation.

For what it is worth the survey that they asked me to complete for my customer service experience didn't have an option for CS rep was not able to resolve your issue, nor CS rep disconnected you. None of the options related to that level of bad service, so I don't think their survey is properly providing information that might be helpful to them.

Sort of like asking a ship wreck survivor to rate the food service.
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Old 07-02-2008, 12:56 PM   #632
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I got through yesterday after 20 minutes or so, but then had to hold for level 2 for another 20. He took my TSN and other info and said I should receive an email. How long did it take you guys to receive the email?
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Old 07-02-2008, 01:04 PM   #633
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If you've upgraded your THD in any way that's not supported by TiVo (The MyDVR Expander is the only official upgrade I know of). They can't rule out your upgrades as a cause of some of your issues. So from a testing standpoint hacked/unoficially upgraded units are no good to them.
My point is that there are a *lot* of user-upgraded TiVos out there, and they need to make sure their software works on it as well so at some point they need people with user-upgraded systems to run the beta software.

My TiVo ran fine until the 9.3 update came along, so I'm pretty sure it's not happening because of my bigger hard drive.
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Old 07-02-2008, 01:07 PM   #634
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My point is that there are a *lot* of user-upgraded TiVos out there, and they need to make sure their software works on it as well so at some point they need people with user-upgraded systems to run the beta software.

My TiVo ran fine until the 9.3 update came along, so I'm pretty sure it's not happening because of my bigger hard drive.
Thing is, from a tech standpoint they need to get it functioning on a "factory unit", then they can more better deal with issues on user upgraded systems.

If they throw user upgraded systems in from the start "where to look" gets convoluted.
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Old 07-02-2008, 01:30 PM   #635
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I've made some negative posts in this thread, but to be fair, I have to say that considering all that a Tivo does, this extremely complex system is highly reliable. My Series 2 had frequent problems with the wifi link - other than that, it was 100% for years. I have to remind myself that the 'freezing' bug is in fact the ONLY bug I've encountered. What comparable software product could I name, that has exactly 1 significant bug?

Tivo's real weakness is that it's a closed black box system, so for example I had no way to actually diagnose the wifi problems with the Series 2. Any update is a massive "push" by Tivo to all users, requiring big bandwidth, and entailing a lot of risk.
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Old 07-02-2008, 01:40 PM   #636
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You lost me at step 1: Calling Tivo and talking to a service rep.

Next time why don't you make joining easier: I could walk across hot coals, pierce myself with hundred of needles, or even cut off one of my body parts.

Any of these options are better then calling up Tivo customer support.
I agree, TivoJerry, can you set up a ticket number or "Magic Phrase" to get entered into this aspect of the beta program? That way when we get to 1st level support all we need to do is say "I'd like to be in the TivoJerry Freeze beta" then the support person could verify the details and move things along.
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Old 07-02-2008, 01:49 PM   #637
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I just got an email to enter the beta. I think this was probably due help from TiVoJerry (as opposed to my ill fated dealings with CS). When I followed the email link, I signed the NDA and got to a page that said "Register these TSNs with the program" or something like that. There were no TSNs listed and I could do nothing but check "Submit" so I don't know if I am registered correctly or not.

Since my TSNs were already in the beta system from the ongoing beta test (not related to the HD freeze) my only hope is that the TSNs are automatically registered.

Did anyone else have a different experience (or the same)?
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Old 07-02-2008, 02:04 PM   #638
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Since my TSNs were already in the beta system from the ongoing beta test (not related to the HD freeze) my only hope is that the TSNs are automatically registered.
You do know what an NDA is right?


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Old 07-02-2008, 02:27 PM   #639
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If your only upgrade is a larger drive and you are having the lockup problem, I would sign up for the beta test.....
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Old 07-02-2008, 02:29 PM   #640
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If your only upgrade is a larger drive and you are having the lockup problem, I would sign up for the beta test.....
If it's not the MyDVR Expander they don't want you to, it states it explicitly.
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Old 07-02-2008, 02:49 PM   #641
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I just got an email to enter the beta. I think this was probably due help from TiVoJerry (as opposed to my ill fated dealings with CS). When I followed the email link, I signed the NDA and got to a page that said "Register these TSNs with the program" or something like that. There were no TSNs listed and I could do nothing but check "Submit" so I don't know if I am registered correctly or not.

Since my TSNs were already in the beta system from the ongoing beta test (not related to the HD freeze) my only hope is that the TSNs are automatically registered.

Did anyone else have a different experience (or the same)?
Not quite the same, but then this is my first time in a TiVo beta program so I was not surprised I had to register my machine. I was a bit surprised to find that my existing TiVo Central user account did not carry over to this one and I had to create a new login from scratch, but so be it.

I had a much easier time of it with CS than you though. About ten minutes waiting on hold for someone to pick up the call, and the guy who answered knew what I was talking about and immediately went off to find a Level 2 CSR, which took another ten minutes. Now I'm all logged in and waiting for my HD box to receive the beta software upgrade. Fingers crossed!
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Old 07-02-2008, 02:49 PM   #642
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You do know what an NDA is right?

Yes but since TiVoJerry mentioned a beta in a public forum I am implying that knowledge that a beta program exists is not protected. Thus saying another beta exists probably isn't protected information either. I was very careful to say information I thought was relevant that shouldn't have been an issue and was public.

Unless part of the test is how the web interface for beta works in which case...ARG what have I done?
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Old 07-02-2008, 02:52 PM   #643
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Since my TSNs were already in the beta system from the ongoing beta test (not related to the HD freeze) my only hope is that the TSNs are automatically registered.
If you go to your beta site home page and click Manage Platforms on the left you can see which of your machines are registered.
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Old 07-02-2008, 03:06 PM   #644
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TiVoJerry - the e-mail invite basically says "if you've unofficially upgraded your TiVo, don't join the beta test". Can you expand on that? I sent a reply e-mail asking about it but I wasn't sure if anybody would actually be allowed to say anything. Maybe you're not either, but it can't hurt to ask.

Is the wording in the invite just for liability purposes, or do you really not want people like me to join in? I'd think I was a prime candidate for testing otherwise...I'm getting daily freezes now.
That's standard language for us that has not been modified for this invitation. We don't want to spend time troubleshooting issues on those models. We recently found out that Series3 models with a particular Seagate 750gb esata drive were stuck starting up because those drives don't power up quickly enough.

You can have a drive that works wonderfully for however long but we cannot guarante future performance on drives we never supported in the first place. Caveat emptor.

Quote:
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When I followed the email link, I signed the NDA and got to a page that said "Register these TSNs with the program" or something like that. There were no TSNs listed and I could do nothing but check "Submit" so I don't know if I am registered correctly or not.

Since my TSNs were already in the beta system from the ongoing beta test (not related to the HD freeze) my only hope is that the TSNs are automatically registered.
You should be able to enter your TSN(s). They are not entered automatically for you.

Let's not talk about who is being sent invitations from this point on, please. Just because the fact that there is an invitation was made public doesn't mean it's open season to discuss your participation. The NDA still applies.

Thank you.
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Old 07-02-2008, 03:16 PM   #645
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TivoJerry,

I have a 652 unit that has exhibited the symptoms you mentioned qualifies for the invite but I have also encountered most of the other problems you associate with the 648 units (lockups, reboots, etc).

So what camp do I fall into? Should I call and get on the list or is there going to be more work done for those of us with more serious issues?

Thanks,
Mark

p.s. I have an unmodified TivoHD with the WD My-DVR expander with a single M-Card. I've been having the reboots and lockups and freezes since I bought it a couple months ago.
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Old 07-02-2008, 03:29 PM   #646
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TivoJerry,

I have a 652 unit that has exhibited the symptoms you mentioned qualifies for the invite but I have also encountered most of the other problems you associate with the 648 units (lockups, reboots, etc).

So what camp do I fall into? Should I call and get on the list or is there going to be more work done for those of us with more serious issues?

Thanks,
Mark

p.s. I have an unmodified TivoHD with the WD My-DVR expander with a single M-Card. I've been having the reboots and lockups and freezes since I bought it a couple months ago.
Are the video freeze incidents accompanied by lockups and/or reboots, or do they happen separately? If they happen together, I'd consider your issue to be different than in this thread and advise you call in for troubleshooting and a possible exchange.

Even if they are happening separately, you may still want to call in for TS & possible exchange, but you can also join in the EA program if you like.
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Old 07-02-2008, 04:24 PM   #647
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Are the video freeze incidents accompanied by lockups and/or reboots, or do they happen separately? If they happen together, I'd consider your issue to be different than in this thread and advise you call in for troubleshooting and a possible exchange.

Even if they are happening separately, you may still want to call in for TS & possible exchange, but you can also join in the EA program if you like.

The most common issue I have is random reboots when everything else seems fine. I also encounter lockups where the screen is black and no input works, need to pull the power to recover. Then I also run into the issue where a channel will freeze and if I change channels the video plays for 1-2 seconds, freezes and then the audio stops shortly after that. But I can usually recover from that by changing to a non-digital channel and going back.

I've spoken to TS before and they told me to remove my cable card for a few days and see if that fixes it. While that did stop the problems, I was never tuned to a HD or digital channel during that time so I think it just masked the problem instead of being the problem. As for it being a hard drive issue, I would have expected to see some sort of issues without the cable card installed.

Is there a way when I call TS to skip the first level support and speak directly to an engineer who may be able to help me more? I'm a H/W test engineer for Sun Microsystems and sometimes speaking to the 1st level support it can feel like I know more about the box then they do. Not to knock them as they have always been very helpful in wanting to solve the problem and I've never had an unpleasant encounter with a TS rep.
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Old 07-02-2008, 04:35 PM   #648
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The most common issue I have is random reboots when everything else seems fine. I also encounter lockups where the screen is black and no input works, need to pull the power to recover. Then I also run into the issue where a channel will freeze and if I change channels the video plays for 1-2 seconds, freezes and then the audio stops shortly after that. But I can usually recover from that by changing to a non-digital channel and going back.

I've spoken to TS before and they told me to remove my cable card for a few days and see if that fixes it. While that did stop the problems, I was never tuned to a HD or digital channel during that time so I think it just masked the problem instead of being the problem. As for it being a hard drive issue, I would have expected to see some sort of issues without the cable card installed.

Is there a way when I call TS to skip the first level support and speak directly to an engineer who may be able to help me more? I'm a H/W test engineer for Sun Microsystems and sometimes speaking to the 1st level support it can feel like I know more about the box then they do. Not to knock them as they have always been very helpful in wanting to solve the problem and I've never had an unpleasant encounter with a TS rep.
If you send me a PM with your TSN I will attempt to get the ball rolling before I go out of the office for the next few days.
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Old 07-02-2008, 04:41 PM   #649
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Me too

I just got my HD Tivo 2 weeks ago, and yes, I had read this thread before buying. I decided to try it anyway, as this is a refurbished unit and I was hoping that if it was a hardware or firmware issue they would have resolved it in this box. Guess not. I am currently on hold with tech support. The first rep I got kept giving me a boxed, vanilla response of "The beta software is being worked on, the issue is known..." I said Don, I understand you are to read me a pre-written response, but if you can't or won't help me become a beta tester, I need to speak with a Level 2 technician.

I was on the phone for 45 minutes with CS, but I did finally get to speak with a Tier 2 rep, who set me up for the beta.

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Old 07-02-2008, 05:20 PM   #650
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I had the same experience as Ogre73. You'll probably need to escalate before you find someone who knows about the beta -- there's nothing in the preprinted three-ring binder of official Tivo CS Answers about it.
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Old 07-02-2008, 05:32 PM   #651
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Folks, I'd like to remind you that you need to call in to be put in the Early Access Program. I've had a number of people decide to PM me directly rather than call in.

Private Messaging takes a bit of back and forth to make sure you've self-diagnosed properly. There have been too many times where someone will assume they have the same issue as other people. We need to have our agents filter these reports out so as not to dilute the investigation.

Aside from the fact that I am on vacation for the next few days, I really don't want to handle this type of volume personally. I'm sorry, but it's in our best interest and yours. If you don't want to deal with the inconvenience of calling in, you might want to hold off on joining Early Access.
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Old 07-02-2008, 05:50 PM   #652
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...We recently found out that Series3 models with a particular Seagate 750gb esata drive were stuck starting up because those drives don't power up quickly enough.

You can have a drive that works wonderfully for however long but we cannot guarante future performance on drives we never supported in the first place. Caveat emptor...
Hrmmmm...

If I translate that correctly, it sounds like "Some S3 owners who had a (particular model) of a Seagate 750gb esata drive, will no longer be able to use those (previously fully-functional) drives with the latest software update."

Is that right?

The 648 I'm suddenly having problems with, indeed, uses a particular 750gb Seagate esata drive (though without model number I'm unable to confirm a match).

If my quasi-translation is correct, it would be disappointing to find software updates rendered previously functional HW incompatible.

Would one be aware of this particular incompatibility outside this forum..?
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Old 07-02-2008, 05:58 PM   #653
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Would one be aware of this particular incompatibility outside this forum..?
Any eSata drive solution other than the WD My DVR Expander is unsupported.

/devil's advocate
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Old 07-02-2008, 06:05 PM   #654
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Any eSata drive solution other than the WD My DVR Expander is unsupported.

/devil's advocate
...unsupported is a bit different for the Tivo HD vs the S3 (652 vs 648).

Many (I'd guess most) of us here were using esata on the S3s before the port was "officially" enabled, or before there was any such thing as a "supported or "unsupported" list.

So, while I appreciate your eagerness to act as an apologist, I'm rather more interested in understanding if I heard TJ correctly and, if so, how one might determine which specific Seagate model he was talking about.

(...and again, if correct, it would be disappointing for those folks affected to find out that HW that was worked perfectly with their S3s, since inception, has been rendered incompatible)
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Old 07-02-2008, 06:10 PM   #655
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Hrmmmm...

If I translate that correctly, it sounds like "Some S3 owners who had a (particular model) of a Seagate 750gb esata drive, will no longer be able to use those (previously fully-functional) drives with the latest software update."

Is that right?

The 648 I'm suddenly having problems with, indeed, uses a particular 750gb Seagate esata drive (though without model number I'm unable to confirm a match).

If my quasi-translation is correct, it would be disappointing to find software updates rendered previously functional HW incompatible.

Would one be aware of this particular incompatibility outside this forum..?

Actually he said it was an issue of the esata drive booting to slow. that's the caveat of using an unsupported drive. It's no conspiracy on TiVo's part or they'd simply have issues with all non supported drives, not just the one.
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Old 07-02-2008, 06:12 PM   #656
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Just stating the obvious for those who missed it.
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Old 07-02-2008, 06:17 PM   #657
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Actually he said it was an issue of the esata drive booting to slow. that's the caveat of using an unsupported drive. It's no conspiracy on TiVo's part or they'd simply have issues with all non supported drives, not just the one.
I'm not claiming retail partner conspiracy.

I'm simply asking if I understood that correctly, that folks with particular esata drives which had been 100% functional since the S3 port was able to be activated (which was well before "official" activation) were now rendered unusable.

The boot time for the mysterious model in question hasn't changed, it's the software that changed and (apparently) rendered the drive incompatible.
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Old 07-02-2008, 06:22 PM   #658
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I'm not claiming retail partner conspiracy.

I'm simply asking if I understood that correctly, that folks with particular esata drives which had been 100% functional since the S3 port was able to be activated (which was well before "official" activation) were now rendered unusable.

The boot time for the mysterious model in question hasn't changed, it's the software that changed and (apparently) rendered the drive incompatible.
Thing is, even if changes to their software has rendered the drive incompatable, which is possible, since they wouldn't do any QA against non supported drives. It really is a risk any of us takes when we hack a box.
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Old 07-02-2008, 06:22 PM   #659
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I'm not claiming retail partner conspiracy.

I'm simply asking if I understood that correctly, that folks with particular esata drives which had been 100% functional since the S3 port was able to be activated (which was well before "official" activation) were now rendered unusable.

The boot time for the mysterious model in question hasn't changed, it's the software that changed and (apparently) rendered the drive incompatible.
Then let me be less than cryptic. In very recent testing, multiple Seagate FreeAgent Pro 750gb drives were determined to write to disk slowly enough to cause performance problems. The drive also appears to have some type of basic incompatability with the SATA controller (throws out a lot of drive status CRC errors). This could be caused by a bad or flaky cable, or even electromagnetic noise on one or two drives, but we saw it across the board. Those problems have been there since day one but may not have been particularly noticeable to the customer.

If a problem arises during startup, the external drive might be detected as unsupported or not be recognized at all. Multiple restarts would likely get around the incompatability, but YMMV.

If you want to discuss this new issue further, please do so in a new thread. This one is contentious enough with it being hijacked, too. Thank you.
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Old 07-02-2008, 06:27 PM   #660
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If you want to discuss this new issue further, please do so in a new thread. This one is contentious enough with it being hijacked, too. Thank you.
Fair enough Jerry.

Thanks for answering my question, and I'll start a new thread if need be.
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