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Old 11-21-2007, 06:25 AM   #61
bicker
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And I think this points out the problem that folks like Phantom Gremlin face: They don't like ads at all, and are trying to project a sense of hazard on that basis, but in order to be able to do so they have to resort to such hyperbole that their entire point has no credibility. The way things are, the complaints should be on the order of, "Ads are annoying. Bummer." And instead some folks are posting, "Oh my gosh, the sky is falling!"

And yes, we do get that such things are progressive, but they're progressive because our tolerance changes over time. An analogy: A couple of weeks ago, I started weight lifting again, after about a year and a half off. I went right back to what was almost my old routine; my muscle memory remembered how, and my strength hadn't vanished. Two days later, I was in intense pain. I started back up too quickly. I was out of commission for a week. So a week ago, I started again, doing a very basic set of exercises, at lower weight levels, with fewer reps and fewer sets. Two days later, I did it again, but with a few more reps. And I'll continue to progressively make my work-out more intense. And guess what? Three months from now, when I'm back up to where I was a year and a half ago, I WON'T feel any pain two days later.

I'm just waiting for someone to attack that analogy -- someone who doesn't realize that advertising IS indeed, at least in part, the "pain" that pays for our TiVo experience. If you don't get the analogy, think about it some more.
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Old 11-21-2007, 06:46 AM   #62
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I'm just waiting for someone to attack that analogy -- someone who doesn't realize that advertising IS indeed, at least in part, the "pain" that pays for our TiVo experience. If you don't get the analogy, think about it some more.

And before you know it you won't feel a thing while you do 10 reps of lifting a bull elephant.
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Old 11-21-2007, 06:47 AM   #63
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Give me time.... getting older.... need to become that lean, mean fighting machine I always dreamed I could become, before it is too late!
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Old 11-21-2007, 12:14 PM   #64
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How is a line on a screen, that requires zero effort to ignore or skip, forced at us?
Read msg #42 in this thread. The guy is reporting not one but three ad lines. He joined recently so maybe he's a troll. But if not, this is a very ominous development. I'm paying TiVo $10/mo to get away from ads, not to have them pushed at me in menu screens.
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Old 11-21-2007, 12:20 PM   #65
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I've never seen more than one ad per page on my TiVos. I think what he really meant in #42 was this:

program choice or menu item
program choice or menu item
program choice or menu item
program choice or menu item
program choice or menu item
program choice or menu item

|------------------------------|
| ICON banner advertisement |
|------------------------------|
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Old 11-21-2007, 12:25 PM   #66
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I called him on the 3 ads in #43. No response. I also haven't seen ads in a larger font (except in the keep-or-delete menu at the end of the program - but that one's been discussed to death)
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Old 11-21-2007, 12:42 PM   #67
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I've never seen more than one ad per page on my TiVos. I think what he really meant in #42 was this:

program choice or menu item
program choice or menu item
program choice or menu item
program choice or menu item
program choice or menu item
program choice or menu item

|------------------------------|
| ICON banner advertisement |
|------------------------------|
You are correct...the OP simply meant that the single ad (in his opinion) was more prominent or carried more "weight" than the rest of the menu items due to the additional graphic(s) surrounding it...not that there were three lines of ads.
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Old 11-21-2007, 01:01 PM   #68
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Yup -- only one ad per page, and not in a larger font. The most remarkable things about the ads is that they're framed and that they have an icon, to call attention to them, for the reasons discussed earlier.
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Old 11-21-2007, 01:56 PM   #69
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There goes the "unobtrusive" argument. Of course they could have made the ads a different color to make them stand out even more - probably the next slip down the slope........
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Old 11-21-2007, 01:58 PM   #70
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But does the "no new keystrokes imposed" argument still hold?
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Old 11-21-2007, 02:09 PM   #71
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There goes the "unobtrusive" argument.
No, not really. The ad links are unobtrustive AFAIC.

Quote:
Originally Posted by RoyK View Post
Of course they could have made the ads a different color to make them stand out even more - probably the next slip down the slope........
Or they could have put the ads on the top of the list, or within a non-scrolling frame (as in the competing iGuide software) meaning you would be more likely to have to scroll down to see menu options beyond the first handful. Anything short of that doesn't qualify as obtrusive in my book.
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Old 11-21-2007, 02:24 PM   #72
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But does the "no new keystrokes imposed" argument still hold?
Yup. But one thing at a time.
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Old 11-21-2007, 10:00 PM   #73
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Originally Posted by Phantom Gremlin View Post
... this is a very ominous development.
Quote:
Originally Posted by RoyK View Post
probably the next slip down the slope........
Bull Shyte. It's no slippery slope. And it's not ominous. It's an easy to ignore method of advertising. How many times does it take before it sinks in, there is no extra effort required in the least to ignore these promos. TiVo has purposely chosen methods that are unobtrusive. And yes, they continue to find new ways to use them. Is that a slippery slope? Not when it's this easily ignored.

If the day comes when TiVo creates a promo that we can't skip thru, or FF thru, or requires extra clicks to get around, then you can come back and give me an "I told you so". Until that day, get real.

BTW, you ain't paying TiVo $10 to get away from ads. They charge you $10 for their service. You can consider it paying for whatever you want, it's their charge and their TOS.

I gotta quit these threads, they're bad for my BP.
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Old 11-21-2007, 11:44 PM   #74
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There goes the "unobtrusive" argument.
Not at all. Semantics aside, the whole point is that you need to do absolutely nothing to skip them. Obstructive is really the term. Modest changes in color of font size doesnt mean it changes my usage in any way.
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Old 11-22-2007, 01:12 AM   #75
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I've got no problem with these ads myself. They're not forcing me to click anything and they're always at the bottom of the menus they show up on. Nothing's been shoved off my screen and I haven't been forced to view or press any ads in order to watch my shows so I'm fine with it. If my choices are Tivo going bankrupt or having to see these "intrusive" ads on screen once in a while, I'll most certainly take the ads because I've lived in cable company DVR land and it ain't fun, unless you consider constant clipping, missed recordings, and incorrect lineups worth your money.
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Old 11-22-2007, 01:21 AM   #76
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I say we file a class action lawsuit over this!


somebody had to say it
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Old 11-22-2007, 05:50 AM   #77
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Bull Shyte. It's no slippery slope. And it's not ominous. It's an easy to ignore method of advertising. How many times does it take before it sinks in, there is no extra effort required in the least to ignore these promos. TiVo has purposely chosen methods that are unobtrusive. And yes, they continue to find new ways to use them. Is that a slippery slope? Not when it's this easily ignored.
It is the definition of the slippery slope - increase little by little. Exactly what is happening. Fortunately the slope hasn't been very steep so far. You may find it easy to ignore them, others don't. Personally I find an accented band with a star at one end and a big white XF or a picture of a convicted female felon at the other rather difficult to ignore. Not requiring us to click on an ad is not the same thing as making it easy to ignore.

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If the day comes when TiVo creates a promo that we can't skip thru, or FF thru, or requires extra clicks to get around, then you can come back and give me an "I told you so". Until that day, get real.
If that day ever comes I won't be back because I will no longer be a TiVo subscriber.

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BTW, you ain't paying TiVo $10 to get away from ads. They charge you $10 for their service. You can consider it paying for whatever you want, it's their charge and their TOS.

I gotta quit these threads, they're bad for my BP.
Relax. Enjoy your Thanksgiving. Its a difference of opinion here, not the end of the world.

Last edited by RoyK : 11-22-2007 at 06:09 AM.
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Old 11-22-2007, 06:53 AM   #78
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It is the definition of the slippery slope - increase little by little. Exactly what is happening.
A slippery slope is when you can't tell when the situation has crossed over from tolerable to bad.

Many folks here have defined the criteria as what the ads do to the usability of the UI (appearance nonwithstanding). If you don't have to respond differently then that's an acceptable action on TiVo's part. One nice aspect of this criterion is that it's straightforward to tell when TiVo has crossed the line - and as of yet they haven't.

Ads on the TiVo are sort of a symbiotic thing - if you care about keeping your TiVo you care about TiVo Inc. remaining a going concern, just profitable enough. Ads help keep the balance sheet in TiVo's favor and away from additinoal subscription price hikes.
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Old 11-22-2007, 07:22 AM   #79
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A slippery slope is when you can't tell when the situation has crossed over from tolerable to bad.

Many folks here have defined the criteria as what the ads do to the usability of the UI (appearance nonwithstanding). If you don't have to respond differently then that's an acceptable action on TiVo's part. One nice aspect of this criterion is that it's straightforward to tell when TiVo has crossed the line - and as of yet they haven't.
And many of us define it differently.

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Ads on the TiVo are sort of a symbiotic thing - if you care about keeping your TiVo you care about TiVo Inc. remaining a going concern, just profitable enough. Ads help keep the balance sheet in TiVo's favor and away from additinoal subscription price hikes.
TiVo is a business - not a group of college kids with a good idea working out of a garage or a charity needing support. If they strike a balance between providing a benefit to the customers at a price the customer is willing to pay they will succeed. If they continue to turn off the customer with annoyances and software riddled with bugs they won't.
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Old 11-22-2007, 08:25 AM   #80
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If they strike a balance between providing a benefit to the customers at a price the customer is willing to pay they will succeed.
Where did you get that idea? Lots of "good" businesses fail. Not everything is sufficiently profitable to be sustainable long-term, regardless of what "balance" you strike. A lot of things are simply too costly for there to be a profitable business case for offering them.

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If they continue to turn off the customer with annoyances and software riddled with bugs they won't.
Or alternatively, they can continue to succeed regardless of how much they turn you off with things that annoy you and bugs that affect you. Look at TiVo's competition. Basically, the cable company DVRs are beating the pants off TiVo in the marketplace, complete with things that annoy some customers, and software that some folks would surely claim is "riddled" with bugs. Yet they're doing business like gangbusters. No, Roy, you're off-target. The things you are focusing on aren't important to the customers who matter as you would like us to believe.
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Old 11-22-2007, 08:46 AM   #81
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.......
Or alternatively, they can continue to succeed regardless of how much they turn you off with things that annoy you and bugs that affect you. ......
If you define success as managing to avoid closing their doors. I define it as continuously showing a profit - something that they are yet to do.
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Old 11-22-2007, 10:22 AM   #82
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It is the definition of the slippery slope - increase little by little. Exactly what is happening. Fortunately the slope hasn't been very steep so far.
Slippery slope, more often than not, is a logical fallacy, requiring a great stretch of causation of events that in no way actually cause each other. Using a slippery slope argument is what people turn to when they don't have an actual event to point to thats unacceptable, and instead need to fear monger about what else it could (but probably won't) mean.

Combining it with the straw man, it makes an effective fear tactic, but doesn't relate to reality in the slightest.

1. A has occurred (or will or might occur); therefore
2. B will inevitably happen. (slippery slope)
3. B is wrong; therefore
4. A is wrong. (straw man)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slipper...ope_as_fallacy

Next time you find yourself referring to a slippery slope, step back and realize you're probably wrong, if that's the best logic you can come up with.
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Old 11-22-2007, 12:03 PM   #83
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Slippery slope, more often than not, is a logical fallacy, requiring a great stretch of causation of events that in no way actually cause each other. Using a slippery slope argument is what people turn to when they don't have an actual event to point to thats unacceptable, and instead need to fear monger about what else it could (but probably won't) mean.

Combining it with the straw man, it makes an effective fear tactic, but doesn't relate to reality in the slightest.

1. A has occurred (or will or might occur); therefore
2. B will inevitably happen. (slippery slope)
3. B is wrong; therefore
4. A is wrong. (straw man)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slipper...ope_as_fallacy

Next time you find yourself referring to a slippery slope, step back and realize you're probably wrong, if that's the best logic you can come up with.
That was quite good and could be applied to a lot of what's going on in the world these days. TiVo ads are not a matter of life and death…or even a paper cut.

Nice dose of reality. Thanks!
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Old 11-22-2007, 12:29 PM   #84
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You can ignore street billboards too, but they still are an eyesore to the landscape. Some places pass laws against putting them up.

This thread is focusing on the banner ad, but the ad tone alert is pretty annoying. I would say it's obtrusive. You're purposely trying to ignore the ads and TiVo is going "I will not be ignored" Bleep-Bleep-Bleep. It sounds like a voicemail/SMS alert on a cell.
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Old 11-22-2007, 12:44 PM   #85
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Relax. Enjoy your Thanksgiving. Its a difference of opinion here, not the end of the world.
Smartest thing either of us has said yet. Well put, and thanks!
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Old 11-22-2007, 05:37 PM   #86
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Here's the thing, has Tivo ever promised specifically that you're paying for their product in order to skip advertisements altogether? Not that I can recall. Your monthly fee goes towards the guide data and extra features Tivo provides. The ability to skip commercials just comes with the territory. If they need to add additional revenue by putting small ads in the interface that's fine. It's still wayyyyy better than sitting through 15 minutes of commercials in a TV show.

Just as long as they don't force us to sit through entire programs and commercials without the fast forward feature available. I can picture it now, the Tivo Series 4, now with the peanut remote sans a fast forward button. Now THAT would be a slippery slope. :-)
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Old 11-22-2007, 07:23 PM   #87
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Ok, TiVo apologists, what's your excuse for this???

Here's what TiVo Central looks like on my TiVo HD right now:

Now Playing List
Watch Live TV
Find Programs
Music, Photos, Products, & More
Showcases & TV Guide
Messages & Settings
TM Thanksgiving Break Movie Specials!
* Sneak a peek at the new Jaguar XF


The TM above is a "TiVo man" symbol. The * above is a five pointed yellow star.

I would classify both bottom lines as ads. And yes, I have a picture.

And, yes, this is a PITA. Whenever I want to turn off my TiVo I must go to Messages & Settings. It just became even more difficult to turn the box off.
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Old 11-23-2007, 01:55 AM   #88
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Here's what TiVo Central looks like on my TiVo HD right now:

Now Playing List
Watch Live TV
Find Programs
Music, Photos, Products, & More
Showcases & TV Guide
Messages & Settings
TM Thanksgiving Break Movie Specials!
* Sneak a peek at the new Jaguar XF

The TM above is a "TiVo man" symbol. The * above is a five pointed yellow star.

I would classify both bottom lines as ads. And yes, I have a picture.

And, yes, this is a PITA. Whenever I want to turn off my TiVo I must go to Messages & Settings. It just became even more difficult to turn the box off.
We're seeing the same thing. But I guess I'd still say...so what? An ad for Unbox videos and an ad for a Jag. Big deal. We took a look at the movie specials and even checked out the ad for the car...but no one broke our fingers making us push the remote buttons to get there...could have just as easily ignored them.

In the six plus years we've had TiVo we've never turned any of them off. I know there must be a valid reason.

Quote:
It just became even more difficult to turn the box off.
Why? The Messages and Settings line is in exactly the same place as it's always been on the TiVo Central menu. Even if that changed, pushing a little button one or two times more is a PIA? But itís not a PIA to sit down at a computer and write a detailed post complaining about it? How many keystrokes and time does that take?

I guess some of us have a very low pain threshold or different ideas of what constitutes discomfort when it comes to our posteriors.
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Old 11-23-2007, 04:02 AM   #89
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In the six plus years we've had TiVo we've never turned any of them off. I know there must be a valid reason.
Simple explanation: not everyone's home viewing environment matches yours.

On my series 1 it didn't matter because the box always buffered live TV anyway. On my DirecTiVos it matters a lot because the boxes stop buffering when off. Which means much less wear and tear on the crappy consumer grade hard drives. Offhand I don't know what the default is for TiVo HD but why should I have to think so hard about whether or not a TiVo needs to be turned off. I have three TiVos going to the A/V receiver, two are DirecTiVos, one is a TiVo HD. Why should they be running their hard drives if I'm not watching or recording?

We turn our TV on and off during the day. But we just leave the A/V receiver on all day because it takes much less power than a TV and it's just one less switch to turn on and off. However, if we leave the A/V receiver and a TiVo on, then we have (annoying) sound from the speakers even without the TV on.

Quote:
Why? The Messages and Settings line is in exactly the same place as it's always been on the TiVo Central menu.
Yes it is a PITA. I can turn off a DirecTiVo from the front panel without viewing the TV. I can even turn it off "blind" by hitting:
TiVo
then Page Down
then Select. (standby function)

But it's much more complicated to turn off a TiVo HD:
TiVo
then Page Down
then arrow up (move up from ad)
then Select (messages and settings)
then Page Down
then Select (standby function)

OOPS! That doesn't work anymore because now there are a variable number of lines of ads and not one. So instead the sequence becomes:
Tivo
then arrow down
then arrow down
then arrow down
then arrow down
then arrow down
then select (messages and settings)
then Page Down
then select (standby function)

Simple, huh? NOT!!! Rube Goldberg would be proud of TiVo's idea of an "off" switch, which isn't an "off" switch anyway!

The really sad thing is that some marketing pukes at TiVo thought it was a good idea to sell their souls to Satan for some extra coin, and in doing so to ridiculously complicate what used to be a relatively common and relatively simple thing for me to do.

A total of 9 button presses of 4 different buttons just to put the box into standby.

I'm sure I'm not the only one who is inconvenienced by this, I'm just more likely to complain than most.
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Old 11-23-2007, 06:09 AM   #90
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Quote:
Or alternatively, they can continue to succeed regardless of how much they turn you off with things that annoy you and bugs that affect you. Look at TiVo's competition. Basically, the cable company DVRs are beating the pants off TiVo in the marketplace, complete with things that annoy some customers, and software that some folks would surely claim is "riddled" with bugs. Yet they're doing business like gangbusters.
If you define success as managing to avoid closing their doors. I define it as continuously showing a profit - something that they are yet to do.
Who are you talking about? Comcast is doing GREAT! (Did you ever READ the message you replied to? )
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