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Old 11-06-2007, 01:53 PM   #571
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Big Grin

Quote:
Originally Posted by hddude55
P.S. I'd really like to keep up with SDV developments and wish people would take discussion of issues unrelated to SDV to other threads. It's hard enough to wade through a lengthy thread like this one.
Agreed!

I came here to see what's up with the SDV issue and I see a bunch of posts about HD converter boxes, analog cable, digital cable, blah, blah, blah! None of this has anything to do with SDV. Let's stay on point!
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Old 11-06-2007, 03:47 PM   #572
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that's kind of the nature of this place- when a thread with an "important topic" comes along- many people are sitting around waiting forinfo that just isn't coming. So the thread wanders off topic while we listen to the silence. If something real happens it will show up and there will be 10 new pages in a day talking about it. Sorry, doesn't make it right, but just sort of the way it is.

I'll resist my urge to talk about profitablility on basic cable lines now so we can wait around the 3 months till any facts actually exist to post about....

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Old 11-06-2007, 05:27 PM   #573
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Personally, I was just going to ignore the comments from the gallery about staying on point. Those of us who have actively participated in the discussion and who have posted facts and rumor when we find them do not do it as a service to those who sit around and listen. If the thread gets too thick with slightly off-topic stuff to suit them, I don't see how that concerns me. (Note that neither dolfer or hddude55 has posted anything else in this thread--their complaints are their sole "contribution" to the discussion).

Every thread that I participate in I subscribe to and skim every new post as it's made. I use auto-subscribe and occasionally manually subscribe to threads where I have nothing to say and unsubscribe if I lose interest. Closely following threads with little effort is what your User CP is for. If your way of using these forums isn't working for you, maybe you should make a change, but to complain about the course of threads that you didn't start or make any contribution to is just cheeky.
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Old 11-06-2007, 07:21 PM   #574
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Well I just got off the phone with tivo and was told ( by someone who actually had a clue what sdv was) that tivo boxes WILL NOT be able to receive those channels and what ever you read on the tivo website might be incorrect. SO there you have it ( I really hope he is incorrect) but if not I guess I will still have OTA....
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Old 11-06-2007, 07:30 PM   #575
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Quote:
Originally Posted by madneon
Well I just got off the phone with tivo and was told ( by someone who actually had a clue what sdv was) that tivo boxes WILL NOT be able to receive those channels and what ever you read on the tivo website might be incorrect. SO there you have it ( I really hope he is incorrect) but if not I guess I will still have OTA....
He's correct. Now. And we all know that's the case. But this thread is talking about the solution to that issue which TiVo is working on now with cable companies (the Tuning Resolver), which TiVo states on their web site is being worked on, and which people here were asking about whether or not there's been any more progress/info provided.
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Old 11-06-2007, 07:45 PM   #576
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Man I hope this tuning resolver thingee works and comes out soon
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Old 11-06-2007, 07:45 PM   #577
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CURRENTLY you absolutley can not get sdv on ANYTHING but a cable company owned device.

In the future OCAP devices should work with SDV.

AND the gist of this thread is IF cable and TiVo can work out the dongle thing then at some magic point in the future the tivo's should be able to deal with it to.
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Old 11-08-2007, 09:51 PM   #578
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Standards

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Originally Posted by pmiranda
That must be why you need to specify which system you have when you buy an S3... oh wait, you don't! Must be those standards they use...All that the SDV needs to do is provide the standard transmit hardware called for in the cablecard spec for a 2-way host, and the differences between systems is either software or completely handled by the cablecard. The hardware is trivial but I'm sure the testing and qualification is not.
I'm sorry, but you are quite misinformed. Scientific Atlanta's upstream communications do not conform to Cable Card 2.0 specs or to OCAP. They don't have to because CableCard 2.0 and OCAP have not been ratified, and no one is required to meet those standards. In fact, the CableCard 2.0 standard does not in fact really exist, because various aspects of its formulation have been rejected by the participating parties. CableCard 1.0 is in effect, but it does not provide standards for upstream communications by the host. The Series III, a large number of TVs, and all of the newest generation of CATV set top boxes all conform to CC 1.0. That does not get you to SDV, and an upstream dongle whihc works with a Scientific Atlanta CATV system will not work with a Motorola CATV system, period.
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Old 11-08-2007, 09:58 PM   #579
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Series III

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Originally Posted by HiDefGator
You need to be a bit more specific. It is only HD Tivo owners who are being left out in the cold and that is a very small number compared to all Tivo owners.
'Absolutely true, which makes CableCard TiVo users an even small percentage of the whole CATV customer base.
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Old 11-08-2007, 10:06 PM   #580
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Sorry

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Originally Posted by ntrainer
lost all of the HD channels, HBO... every single channel over 102 seems to be grey. In addition, for some reason NBC -- not HD, basic NBC, channel 4 -- is also not being processed by our Series 3.
'No guarantees, but there is little good reason for a CATV company to switch the locals or the highest penetration premium channels to SDV.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ntrainer
Should I give up on HD and just go back to having a cable box?
Not if you ask me.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ntrainer
Is the cable box even compatible with the Series 3 TiVo?
No. The Series III units are designed to work with OTA and CableCard based HD.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ntrainer
Is my problem related to the fact that I have one of the earlier Series 3 boxes?
No.

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Originally Posted by ntrainer
If so, would it be fixed by getting a box that's fully compatible with the M CableCards?
No. All S-Cards are just as compatible with SDV as any M-Card.
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Old 11-08-2007, 11:09 PM   #581
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lrhorer
I'm sorry, but you are quite misinformed. Scientific Atlanta's upstream communications do not conform to Cable Card 2.0 specs or to OCAP. They don't have to because CableCard 2.0 and OCAP have not been ratified, and no one is required to meet those standards. In fact, the CableCard 2.0 standard does not in fact really exist, because various aspects of its formulation have been rejected by the participating parties. CableCard 1.0 is in effect, but it does not provide standards for upstream communications by the host. The Series III, a large number of TVs, and all of the newest generation of CATV set top boxes all conform to CC 1.0. That does not get you to SDV, and an upstream dongle whihc works with a Scientific Atlanta CATV system will not work with a Motorola CATV system, period.
A Tuning Resolver dongle could be created that would work with any DOCSIS-compliant cable system, which most all are, and very likely all that would be using SDV would be.

Of course, that's referring to the hardware. What would be necessary is firmware implementing whatever protocol was necessary to support the SDV requests on a specific system.

And the simplest thing to do would be to create this Tuning Resolver USB dongle and establish a standardized way (or ways) it attempts to bootstrap itself via communications over a DOCSIS-compliant cable modem; that bootstrap process would involve loading firmware on the Tuning Resolver that is created specifically for that cable system.

In the end, you have one piece of hardware that can be utilized by all cable systems and only a tiny bit of firmware coding may vary between cable systems, all of which could be delivered to the USB dongle in the field, requiring no preauthorization by anyone.
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Old 11-09-2007, 04:09 PM   #582
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Well I guess I knew it was going to happen sooner or later - looks like SDV is coming to Cox, Orange County by December 17 when a whole host of new HD channels will be added:
http://cox.com/ocpv/hdtv/new.asp
The clue is the following line:
Quote:
Televisions and other consumer owned devices equipped with a CableCARD may require a digital set top receiver in order to receive all programming options offered by Cox Digital Cable.
Of course no details given on which specific channels will be SDV.

Would be nice to know what Tivo's definition of "widespread SDV deployment" really means and how much time they think that statement can buy them...
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Old 11-09-2007, 04:48 PM   #583
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Hmm. My housemate's son-in-law is in technical operations management with Cox San Diego. I was at his home for my housemate's daughter's birthday, and he didn't seem to think that they were going to roll out switched video to the home anytime soon (apparently, they've implemented some form of switching at a national level--I didn't ask). Hopefully he's right.

Of that list, we don't have HGTV, Food, CNN, TLC, NFL, FSN, History, Animal Planet, the HDNets, Cinemax, Starz!, Discovery (the new Discovery HD--we have HD Theater) or TLC. It would be a decent upgrade, but hardly equal to the huge number of new HD channels recently added by D*. What in that list is new for your area?
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Old 11-09-2007, 05:23 PM   #584
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mikeyts
Hmm. My housemate's son-in-law is in technical operations management with Cox San Diego. I was at his home for my housemate's daughter's birthday, and he didn't seem to think that they were going to roll out switched video to the home anytime soon (apparently, they've implemented some form of switching at a national level--I didn't ask). Hopefully he's right.

Of that list, we don't have HGTV, Food, CNN, TLC, NFL, FSN, History, Animal Planet, the HDNets, Cinemax, Starz!, Discovery (the new Discovery HD--we have HD Theater) or TLC. It would be a decent upgrade, but hardly equal to the huge number of new HD channels recently added by D*. What in that list is new for your area?
Selected Orange County areas already had:
MYTV13 HD, National Geographic HD, A&E HD, FSNW HD, Starz HD, Cinemax HD

New to everyone:
NFL HD, History Channel HD, Animal Planet HD, CNN HD, TBS HD, TLC HD, Discovery Channel HD, FOOD HD, HGTV HD, HDNET, HDNET Movies

After this update the only ones missing I would care about: SciFi HD & USA HD
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Old 11-09-2007, 05:37 PM   #585
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Quote:
Originally Posted by moyekj
Selected Orange County areas already had:
MYTV13 HD, National Geographic HD, A&E HD, FSNW HD, Starz HD, Cinemax HD

New to everyone:
NFL HD, History Channel HD, Animal Planet HD, CNN HD, TBS HD, TLC HD, Discovery Channel HD, FOOD HD, HGTV HD, HDNET, HDNET Movies

After this update the only ones missing I would care about: SciFi HD & USA HD
Give me Sci Fi HD and I'd be perfectly happy with what I already have (though I'd watch the HD Nets if they were there--I had them before when I lived in a TWC area). Sci Fi is the only SD network that I watch anymore. I currently record some 22 hours of HDTV from the networks and Showtime; it's difficult keeping up with the television that I already watch.
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Old 11-10-2007, 12:02 AM   #586
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Perhaps, this is off point. I don't know.

2 weeks ago I was getting by with a dvd recorder with tv guide plus, and an HD TV with a cable card. Just like that, the digital tuner breaks. Before, I couldn't watch recorded HD, but I could at least watch it live and record other shows with an ir blaster. Now, without the tuner, no more watching and recording. I figured a repair would be hundreds of dollars and still no recorded HD. I began researching all my options, reading everything and was just about to get a tivo. I had never heard of SDV 2 weeks ago, and this issue, alone, has me stopped in my tracks.

On top of providing better service, one thing that appealed to me about tivo, compared to leasing a dvr from Charter, was paying the lump sum for 3 years, getting it over with, and bringing down monthly costs to $8. I see Charter also plans to use SDV, so it almost seems reckless to pay $600 or more dollars on service that is threatened to be unusable in the near future. Hope that the issue will be resolved isn't much to rely on. I don't think the cable companies have much of an incentive to help tivo get the $15 or more a month they want for themsleves. And as noted by some, the rest of the country doesn't even know what SDV is, and many might even welcome it for the new HD channels.

I have read most of the posts here. I don't really want to rent an overpriced dvr from Charter, spend $600 on a tivo that could be soon obsolete or half functioning, or pay hundreds in repairs just to be where I was. Tell me why it might be smart to get the tivo, even with this SDV issue looming?
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Old 11-10-2007, 06:03 AM   #587
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I'll tell you why I bought a TiVo S3 despite the looming spectre of SDV. Worse comes to worst, I put up an antenna, and just record OTA. It wouldn't be as good as getting all those cable choices, but it would still provide some value, enough that the risk is worth it, given that if the risk never materializes, I get the full value of the DVR.

That was my rationale. How well it helps you depends on how much you and your situation matches mine.
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Old 11-10-2007, 10:07 AM   #588
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I bought my S3, fully aware of the pending SDV problem, because I couldn't deal with the cable company's DVR. I moved from a TWC neighborhood into a Cox one; previously I'd had an SA8300HD running Passport Echo, which I was reasonably satisfied with (there are several features of it that I still miss), and got the same box running SARA from Cox, which has an intolerably poor user-interface. Just unbelievable--it's like it was designed and written by a bunch of not-particularly-talented and under-motivated high-school hackers. It was almost physical painful to use. My choice was to buy a TiVo or stop recording television.

If things remain the same in terms of cable content available to me, I'm fine. My fear is that they'll move some things to SDV, reducing what I can watch. Even then, there are 5 or 6 HD channels that they could take away from me that I'd hardly notice the lack of (TBS HD, Discovery HD Theater, A&E HD, NG HD, MOJO, etc). If they add Sci Fi HD as an SDV service it will break my heart, but I'll live. The more HD the merrier, but I'd hardly watch any of the other things that I don't already have that DirecTV has added so far.
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Old 11-14-2007, 07:27 PM   #589
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Originally Posted by moyekj View Post
Selected Orange County areas already had:
MYTV13 HD, National Geographic HD, A&E HD, FSNW HD, Starz HD, Cinemax HD

New to everyone:
NFL HD, History Channel HD, Animal Planet HD, CNN HD, TBS HD, TLC HD, Discovery Channel HD, FOOD HD, HGTV HD, HDNET, HDNET Movies

After this update the only ones missing I would care about: SciFi HD & USA HD
Well, I'm in precisely the same boat you are (1x Series 3 unit with CableCards + OTA in Laguna Niguel), and unfortunately I think I have at least a partial answer to your question.

This morning I received the blast email from Cox about adding HDNet and HDNet Movies (new HD Tier) on December 17... I've been running DIRECTV on HR20's, and also a single S3 on Cox to compare the two... With the addition of the HDNet feeds, I thought I might want to dump DIRECTV altogether, as they are in the maw of forcing out the HR20's by year's end. But what I found out when I called Cox made me do an about face.

It turns out that the HD channels Cox S3 customers have now are all they're gonna get. According to Cox tech support, and a supervisor I was transferred to, S3 (cable card) customers will not be receiving any of the new channels to be broadly launched on Dec. 17, nor any added thereafter. The supervisor informed me that SDV support is required to get any additional channels, and that cable card S3's would not be compatible. When I complained about not being notified in any way of these limitations, she tried to float the notion that it's not only the cable card that is incompatible, but also the S3 and my displays -- that's when we parted company (I hung up the phone).

So now, AFAIK it seems to be either I learn to like the HR21 and the dreaded DIRECTV Grid, or I deep-six my S3 and cable cards in favor of Cox hardware? This seems to all have happened overnight...

In any case, the HD channels I cannot get now, even though I live in Laguna Niguel, are CNN HD, Discovery HD, NFL Network HD, TLC HD, History HD and Animal Planet HD. And I assume I won't be watching HDNet or HDNet Movies on Dec. 17...
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Old 11-15-2007, 01:24 AM   #590
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Well, I'm in precisely the same boat you are (1x Series 3 unit with CableCards + OTA in Laguna Niguel), and unfortunately I think I have at least a partial answer to your question.

This morning I received the blast email from Cox about adding HDNet and HDNet Movies (new HD Tier) on December 17... I've been running DIRECTV on HR20's, and also a single S3 on Cox to compare the two... With the addition of the HDNet feeds, I thought I might want to dump DIRECTV altogether, as they are in the maw of forcing out the HR20's by year's end. But what I found out when I called Cox made me do an about face.

It turns out that the HD channels Cox S3 customers have now are all they're gonna get. According to Cox tech support, and a supervisor I was transferred to, S3 (cable card) customers will not be receiving any of the new channels to be broadly launched on Dec. 17, nor any added thereafter. The supervisor informed me that SDV support is required to get any additional channels, and that cable card S3's would not be compatible. When I complained about not being notified in any way of these limitations, she tried to float the notion that it's not only the cable card that is incompatible, but also the S3 and my displays -- that's when we parted company (I hung up the phone).

So now, AFAIK it seems to be either I learn to like the HR21 and the dreaded DIRECTV Grid, or I deep-six my S3 and cable cards in favor of Cox hardware? This seems to all have happened overnight...

In any case, the HD channels I cannot get now, even though I live in Laguna Niguel, are CNN HD, Discovery HD, NFL Network HD, TLC HD, History HD and Animal Planet HD. And I assume I won't be watching HDNet or HDNet Movies on Dec. 17...
I guess we'll see. When I asked SDV is not yet deployed in Orange County and it is coming sometime next year. Seeing as some areas already have these they are not under SDV currently, but perhaps Cox is already reserving future HD channels for SDV as you say, and won't enable them for CC customers. Scanning with my QAM tuner there are 7 encrypted QAM channels showing up so I know I'm getting the signals, they just are not in my CC channel map.
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Old 11-15-2007, 02:01 PM   #591
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I was left with the impression that SDV is not enabled now, but that Cox has decided to drive a stake in the ground (or, 'in the heart' might be more apt...) on CC's. And although I haven't yet gone toe-to-toe with the sales group, I was told that it would make no diff. The conversation was not heated, as I think this just puts up a barrier to any positive outcome. But the sup essentially told me that, although they really didn't want to lose me as a customer, escalating the issue would have no positive effect... The appear to be determined.
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Old 11-15-2007, 02:18 PM   #592
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I was left with the impression that SDV is not enabled now, but that Cox has decided to drive a stake in the ground (or, 'in the heart' might be more apt...) on CC's. And although I haven't yet gone toe-to-toe with the sales group, I was told that it would make no diff. The conversation was not heated, as I think this just puts up a barrier to any positive outcome. But the sup essentially told me that, although they really didn't want to lose me as a customer, escalating the issue would have no positive effect... The appear to be determined.
SDV works fine with CableCARDs as long as the host device supports two-way services. Unfortunately the TiVo does not.
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Old 11-15-2007, 03:29 PM   #593
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SDV works fine with CableCARDs as long as the host device supports two-way services. Unfortunately the TiVo does not.
It's insufficient just to support two way services. The host device also has to be running the cable company's software (there is currently no standard SDV interface, just standards for downloading software). And there is no standard modular interface at the moment, so the complete software system has to be supplied by the cable company. Why have a TiVo then?
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Old 11-15-2007, 03:35 PM   #594
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It's insufficient just to support two way services. The host device also has to be running the cable company's software (there is currently no standard SDV interface, just standards for downloading software). And there is no standard modular interface at the moment, so the complete software system has to be supplied by the cable company. Why have a TiVo then?
Why have a Tivo? To use it for the stuff not on SDV and the stuff available OTA. This minimizes the exposure to the nasty low capacity cable DVR to stuff only on SDV. That is my plan.
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Old 11-15-2007, 03:42 PM   #595
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Why have a Tivo? To use it for the stuff not on SDV and the stuff available OTA. This minimizes the exposure to the nasty low capacity cable DVR to stuff only on SDV. That is my plan.
My point was why have a TiVo if the cable company is supplying the software (and TiVo isn't).

I agree it may be reasonable to run a TiVo and not have access to the SDV channels. But an OCAP compatible TiVo that can get SDV with the cable company supplying the software seems useless. Perhaps someday standards will arise here, but there aren't any useful ones now.
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Old 11-15-2007, 03:50 PM   #596
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My point was why have a TiVo if the cable company is supplying the software (and TiVo isn't).

I agree it may be reasonable to run a TiVo and not have access to the SDV channels. But an OCAP compatible TiVo that can get SDV with the cable company supplying the software seems useless. Perhaps someday standards will arise here, but there aren't any useful ones now.
But that isnt what OCAP is doing. Cableco is supplying middleware and unique FW for their cable system. Tivo would be supplying the user interface and the guts of the Tivo experience.
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Old 11-15-2007, 03:53 PM   #597
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I agree it may be reasonable to run a TiVo and not have access to the SDV channels.
It seems reasonable to you because you are only missing a couple of HD channels today. How reasonable will it seem the middle of next year when you aren't getting say 100+ HD channels?

Once you have mopre than one HD TV in the house is it reasonable to buy a Tivo and lease a cable DVR for each one?
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Old 11-15-2007, 03:57 PM   #598
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It seems reasonable to you because you are only missing a couple of HD channels today. How reasonable will it seem the middle of next year when you aren't getting say 100+ HD channels?

Once you have mopre than one HD TV in the house is it reasonable to buy a Tivo and lease a cable DVR for each one?
I fully expect a Tuning Resolver to become available before any cable system offers 100 or more HD channels using SDV.

In the meantime I have a primary viewing location and already have a cable company DVR for it in addition to two Series 3 TiVo's; and while I almost never use it, it's there for access to OnDemand and PPV programming anyway.

It's not unreasonable for someone with multiple TiVo's and multiple HD displays to at least equip one of them with the cable company DVR to gain access to programming currently unavailable any other way. Doing it for every display location might be excessive, though.

For me, personally, there's only maybe 5 or 6 channels that I record anything from that aren't already available to me in HD from my cable company. For the most part beyond just channel surfing a few times because I can, I can't see that the other 90+ HD channels would even ever get tuned once in my house to watch something, let alone to record something.
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Old 11-15-2007, 03:57 PM   #599
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But that isnt what OCAP is doing. Cableco is supplying middleware and unique FW for their cable system. Tivo would be supplying the user interface and the guts of the Tivo experience.
But it's impossible for TiVo to do that at the moment. There is no standard for TiVo to communicate with the cable company middleware, as they need to. Once there is a standard, I agree that's the desired division. But I see no indication that the cable companies are moving to make that happen. That's why TiVo has been filing all those briefs with the FCC.
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Old 11-15-2007, 04:18 PM   #600
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SDV works fine with CableCARDs as long as the host device supports two-way services. Unfortunately the TiVo does not.
It's insufficient just to support two way services. The host device also has to be running the cable company's software (there is currently no standard SDV interface, just standards for downloading software). And there is no standard modular interface at the moment, so the complete software system has to be supplied by the cable company. Why have a TiVo then?
Uh, what part of 'support two-way services' are you adding extra conditions to? All of what you are adding is covered in my statement of 'support'. Why do you have a need to add unnecessary info.

The software does not have to be cable company software. Anyone can write to the specs that are provided by the cable operators.
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