Can't record more than 90 minutes of NHL Center Ice Games

[forgie716]

I recently purchased a TiVO HD and also purchased the NHL Center Ice season package through Comcast, my digital cable provider. Since the beginning of this season I have been restricted to only recording up to 90 minutes of any NHL Center Ice channel, which is ridiculous because a game runs around 2 and a half hours. I've never had any type of restriction like this in my previous years when purchasing this NHL package and having it with a Comcast DVR and also with an old ReplayTV 5506. I've called both Comcast and InDemand (who Comcast get the package through) and both have said they have no restrictions on the broadcasts. I've called TiVO now three times, the last of which I made it up to level 3 support and was told I should call the NHL because they might be restricting it. I have a hard time believing this as I have yet to find anyone who isn't on a TiVO HD that is having any kind of trouble with this restriction. Eventually after arguing with the level 3 support tech for close to 30 minutes I was told to look at the diagnostic tools when an NHL game is on and to see what the CII bit is showing as well as the signal strength. If the CII bit is greater than 0x00 then it's the broadcast providing the restriction and not TiVO.

Right now I'm trying to figure out if this is indeed a restriction being sent through the broadcasts or if it's the TiVO HD wrongly flagging these channels with the highest level of restriction (which apparently it will do by default if the signal is poor enough to not send the encryption certificate). I have a friend with the exact setup as me and he's having the same problem. Has anyone come across this issue with NHL Center Ice or any other sports season package? It's absolutely absurd that I would only be able to record 90 minutes of a game.

Even an editor at the NY Times posted on his blog about this issue, which I'd paste the link, but it won't let me post due to some restriction in this forum so I'll just paste the text of it.

The Broadcast Flag Rears its Ugly Head

From a reader:

David, I know you are big fan of the TiVo series 3, but there is an ominous thing about it that is currently making my life miserable. That’s the copy-protection scheme built into the CableCard standard.

For almost everyone, it’s a non-issue, as copy protection seems to be mercifully absent from almost all programming, particularly after the “broadcast flag” proposal was stopped by Congress.

However, for some reason, the NHL (of all people) has flagged their NHL Center Ice subscription service with a flag that means that “Copying is prohibited – These programs can be recorded to a TiVo DVR, but only for a 90 minute window, after which they can no longer be accessed or viewed.” (This wording is from the TiVO support page on copy protection.)

This means that I can only watch a game live, and by the time you reach the third period, the first period is no longer watch-able. So much for my legal right to time-shift.

No reply from the NHL or inDemand. TiVO and the Cable companies just throw up their hands and blame the copyright holder.

Pogue note: I was just about to respond, “Well, unfortunately, this is the bargain that the high-definition DVR makers were required to strike with the cable companies — to honor the presence of this sort of flag — so all DVR makers are in the same boat” — when I read on:

Even more annoying is that this copy protection only affects the customers using this type of hardware. Last year I had the cable company HD DVR that didn’t use a CableCard, and had no problems.

I know not many people have a TiVO Series 3 or a TiVO HD, and probably only a tiny subset of those people are interested in hockey, but as a portent of the future of “Digital Rights Management,” it’s potential abuse that I thought might be of interest to your readers.”

You’re right, reader. Thanks for making us all depressed!

[pl1]

Originally Posted by forgie716

I recently purchased a TiVO HD and also purchased the NHL Center Ice season package through Comcast, my digital cable provider. Since the beginning of this season I have been restricted to only recording up to 90 minutes of any NHL Center Ice channel,

Working fine here for me! I think it's a Comcast error. 0x02 on the CI channels, same as HBO and SHO.

[forgie716]

Originally Posted by pl1

Working fine here for me! I think it's a Comcast error. 0x02 on the CI channels, same as HBO and SHO.

What type of restriction do you get with the 0x02? I get 0x03 for NHL CI (dont have HBO or SHO) and I get the 90 minute restriction. What cable provider do you have?

Thanks!

[BrianAZ]

Count yourselves lucky to even be able to watch CI. I'm in a battle with my cable company currently and have escalated to Tivo so they can have one of their legal folks call Cox and enable the package for me. Cox is telling me "Cablecard devices cannot receive any PPV".

Sooo frustrating.

[pl1]

Originally Posted by forgie716

What type of restriction do you get with the 0x02? I get 0x03 for NHL CI (dont have HBO or SHO) and I get the 90 minute restriction. What cable provider do you have?Thanks!

Comcast/ne - Like I said, it is the cableco who has made the error. They determine the restriction value. I did a search to come up with the values. And 0X03 is good for PPV and 90 minutes until delete.

PHP Code:

http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/archive/index.php/t-326444.html

Copy Control Information (CCI) flag can be embedded in an mpeg2 transport stream descriptor which defines the copy rights for that content. The CCI flag consists of 2 bits whose meanings are as follows:

BINARY
HEX
DECIMAL
MEANING

00
0x00
0
Copy Freely - No authentication or encryption required.

01
0x01
1
Copy No More

10
0x02
2
Copy Once - After 1 copy made the content is then marked with CCI of 01 (Copy No More) or 11 (Copy Never)

11
0x03
3
Copy Never - Only fully authorized devices may decode

ajwees41

http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/archive/index.php/t-321949.html

moyekj10-16-2006, 12:59 AM
OK, more information on this...

* I found a VOD channel currently playing something (there are 80 VOD channels available so it's not too hard to find one with something playing).
* I checked and confirmed CCI=0x03 and recorded a 2-minute sample.
* Saw in Now Playing List the flashing red flag indicating it will be deleted in 90 mins.
* Switched same tuner to unencrypted channel (FOXHD)
* Verified CCI=3 in CC Conditional Access screen (info from the VOD channel)
* Recorded 2 minute segment of FOXHD
* Verified that Now Playing list did not have the 90-minute restriction on it.

So this makes me feel good that the Tivo S3 seems to be properly honoring the CCI flags and not erroneously assigning wrong CCI number to unencrypted channels. 


[pl1]

Originally Posted by BrianAZ

Count yourselves lucky to even be able to watch CI. I'm in a battle with my cable company currently and have escalated to Tivo so they can have one of their legal folks call Cox and enable the package for me. Cox is telling me "Cablecard devices cannot receive any PPV".Sooo frustrating.

There is hope on the horizon. We might be seeing a VOD/SDV dongle. If that happens, there should be no more excuses, except that they are out of them or something.

[forgie716]

Well I finally got around to calling Comcast and explaining the situation and all the time I had already spent on the phone with TiVo and InDemand. They decided to send out a repair technician who wasn't familiar much with TiVo and called his buddy also who worked with Comcast to take a look. They continued to say that Comcast holds no restrictions and you either get the channel or you don't. Not accepting that answer they played around in the TiVo menu trying to find a setting that was wrongly set and they didn't find one. They called their dispatch to confirm the two CableCARDS were configured correctly and they were. Finally they asked if I'd be willing to try one of their DVR's to see if I had the same problem with it for NHL CI and I agreed to try it. After about 20 minutes of one of the techs on the phone he came back and said in order to get the Comcast DVR free of charge to troubleshoot with they'd have to set up a test account at my address so it didn't impact my actual billing account. I agreed to this on the condition that when they bring the Comcast DVR it's one of the new ones with CableCARDS in it (as I suspect this is some snag with Comcast and how they're providing programming through their CableCARDS). Apparently this is going to take a week before they come, and at this point I'm really not optimistic. Currently we're using the TivoHD to record everything on our main TV and then I have an old deactivated ReplayTV upstairs that appears to let me still set manual recordings to record hockey games and not have them deleted in 90 minutes. The repair tech said that they have a very limited supply of DVR's with CableCARDS so I'm wondering if that's why I'm the first case they've heard of complaining of this issue.

[TiVoPony]

Hi there,

We'd really like to get your contact information so that we can help track down this issue and resolve it for you. Would you send me a private message please? Thanks!

Pony

[MichaelK]

if they have CCI set to 0x03 then the program will self destruct after 90 minutes per the cablecard aggrements that tivo must abide by. (It should let you keep a rolling 90 minutes so as long as you start watching the game within 90 minutes of start it will let you finish the whole thing- for example if the game starts at 7 and you flip it on at 8 you can start at the beginning and keep watching the whole way thorough. If at 9pm you try to rewind though it will stop 90 minutes into the past at 7:30 in the recording and just give you a blank screen)

There's nothing tivo can do to change it.

the cable company needs to relax with the CCI bits. I had a problem when the S3 first came out and I was one of the first to get cablecard at my head end. They mistakenly had some channels set to 0x03- so I saw the exact behavior. They since changed it to 0x02 and now I'm all set (except as expected to comply with the cablecard rules no MRV is allowed for those).

The laws say that 0x03 is only allowed for VOD and PPV. So the 64,000 dollar question is does the FCC consider center ice to be vod or PPV.

Search on my name for a thread about Patriot media. Some kind people were nice enough to aim me to all the relevant regulations when I had the problem. Once you have the citations write an email to you cable company letting them know 0x03 is set on center ice and per the reg xx cfr yyyy.zz you beleive they are breaking the law. They will respond as soon as you drop that bomb I'm sure. If they believe Center Ice is ppv/vod according to FCC regulations then they will probably tell you its legal and get over it but if not they will likely correct it shortly.

BTW- the fun part is the non-cablecard integrated DVR's that the cable company leases CERTAINLY are NOT effected by the issue. I'm not sure how their cablecard models fare. But since they are not approved by cablelabs it's likely they can ignore the cablecard reqs that require this in their proprietary rental dvr's even with cablecards.

[MichaelK]

Originally Posted by TiVoPony

Hi there,

We'd really like to get your contact information so that we can help track down this issue and resolve it for you. Would you send me a private message please? Thanks!

Pony

Sounds like the Pony knows who to call directly once you tell him your location.....

The cavalry comes to the rescue. Anyone else find it funny that Pony is the Cavalry?

Isn't the cavalry supposed to ride the pony's?

[CharlesH]

Originally Posted by MichaelK

BTW- the fun part is the non-cablecard integrated DVR's that the cable company leases CERTAINLY are NOT effected by the issue. I'm not sure how their cablecard models fare. But since they are not approved by cablelabs it's likely they can ignore the cablecard reqs that require this in their proprietary rental dvr's even with cablecards.

But if their DVRs don't enforce the restriction, it seems that they are on pretty weak ground claiming that it is the content providers demanding the restriction. I can't imagine the content providers telling the cable companies that they should lock down third-party DVRs, but it is OK for them to not lock down the cable company's proprietary DVRs.

[MichaelK]

it is NOT the content providers doing it. It is some jack___ at the headend who is setting the flags. The fact is clear that it's not the content providers in the vast majority of cases. If it WAS really the content providers certain CCI bits would be set at all digital cable headends, cable compnay DVR's would have the flags they use set, firewire outputs would be flagged on firewire cableboxes and the providers wouldn't stop at cable they would have DBS and telco tv company's set the same sort of flags.

it's just cable morons being morons.

[forgie716]

Originally Posted by TiVoPony

Hi there,

We'd really like to get your contact information so that we can help track down this issue and resolve it for you. Would you send me a private message please? Thanks!

Pony

Well, I've sent Pony a couple private messages, but after giving the case # for the issue haven't heard back even though I've asked for follow-ups. The calvary is MIA.

[MichaelK]

I'd sent the nasty email to the the provider saying they are violaiting the regulations. Say that it must be an oversight as you know they wouldn't willfully break the law. And tell them to get back to you withing X period of time so you know it's just a mistake and dont need to contact the FCC and your local franchise authority.

[MichaelK]

here's the post/thread with the specific reqs referenced for you:

http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb...&&#post4464292

[Saxion]

I suggest bypassing the CSRs altogether and writing a letter (USPS not email) to the legal department at the corporate headquarters of your cable company. You should be able to find an address and the name of the VP for the legal dept on their corporate website. Present your evidence and cite the relevant regulations. You'll get an accurate response that way.

[BrianAZ]

Originally Posted by forgie716

Well, I've sent Pony a couple private messages, but after giving the case # for the issue haven't heard back even though I've asked for follow-ups. The calvary is MIA.

I also sent Pony a plea for help. Haven't heard back but I figure since tech support's not his primary role, he's checking in here every few days and will do what he can, when he can. In the meantime, I'm still trying to get things through via my local city government.

I may also send a letter to Cox's legal department.

[Saxion]

Originally Posted by BrianAZ

I may also send a letter to Cox's legal department.

Here's their address:

Cox Communications, Inc.
Law & Policy Group
1400 Lake Hearn Drive
Atlanta, GA 30319

You might even get a free month's service (I did for a different issue).

[TiVoPony]

Originally Posted by forgie716

Well, I've sent Pony a couple private messages, but after giving the case # for the issue haven't heard back even though I've asked for follow-ups. The calvary is MIA.

Not MIA...handed your information off to the appropriate people here, I believe they're having the conversations you're hoping they'll have. If our support team needs to contact you for more details, I know they will (they may ask to share specific details of your case, including your contact info with the parties in question).

I do apologize if you'd expected another reply from me! The issue is being worked on.

Pony

[TiVoPony]

Originally Posted by BrianAZ

I also sent Pony a plea for help. Haven't heard back but I figure since tech support's not his primary role, he's checking in here every few days and will do what he can, when he can. In the meantime, I'm still trying to get things through via my local city government.

I may also send a letter to Cox's legal department.

Yep, you'd sent me a note, but as I recall it still isn't clear that you're describing the same situation as the OP's. In your case they're saying that the cablecards simply cannot display that channel, and you're seeing a grey screen on your TiVo DVR.

I have to admit, it's been a busy week and I have not followed up on your situation, as it is quite different than what we're trying to track down. I will forward your private message to the cablecard team and see if they can get some satisfaction for your specific situation.

Thanks!
Pony

[MichaelK]

myself I was lucky enough to stumple on a VP's email address and sent him the email when I had the problem. That got things fixed pretty quick. :-)

[BrianAZ]

Originally Posted by TiVoPony

Yep, you'd sent me a note, but as I recall it still isn't clear that you're describing the same situation as the OP's. In your case they're saying that the cablecards simply cannot display that channel, and you're seeing a grey screen on your TiVo DVR.

I have to admit, it's been a busy week and I have not followed up on your situation, as it is quite different than what we're trying to track down. I will forward your private message to the cablecard team and see if they can get some satisfaction for your specific situation.

Thanks!
Pony

My situation is not the same as the OP (at least not yet, I can't tune to the channels to see the CCI ). The only similarity is that our issues both involve the NHL Center Ice package. Your description of my situation is accurate (grey screen, but I was able to watch the free preview no problem).

Really appreciate your fwd'ing my info on, thanks!

[BrianAZ]

Originally Posted by Saxion

Here's their address:

Cox Communications, Inc.
Law & Policy Group
1400 Lake Hearn Drive
Atlanta, GA 30319

You might even get a free month's service (I did for a different issue).

Wonderful! I will draft my letter tomorrow.


Thanks

[Saxion]

Originally Posted by BrianAZ

Wonderful! I will draft my letter tomorrow.

I was originally suggesting this avenue to the OP, whose issue was that the CCI was set to 0x03 for NHL Center Ice. That is a clear violation of FCC regulations and the Cox legal group is an appropriate channel to get it fixed. As to your issue, I'm not really sure why you are getting grey screens and being told you cannot receive PPV, but I'm not sure Cox is breaking any laws there. I could be wrong. But I'm not sure the legal group can help you. Anyway, it couldn't hurt, right?

[BrianAZ]

Originally Posted by Saxion

I was originally suggesting this avenue to the OP, whose issue was that the CCI was set to 0x03 for NHL Center Ice. That is a clear violation of FCC regulations and the Cox legal group is an appropriate channel to get it fixed. As to your issue, I'm not really sure why you are getting grey screens and being told you cannot receive PPV, but I'm not sure Cox is breaking any laws there. I could be wrong. But I'm not sure the legal group can help you. Anyway, it couldn't hurt, right?

At this point, I'll try anything . Thx

[forgie716]

Originally Posted by TiVoPony

Not MIA...handed your information off to the appropriate people here, I believe they're having the conversations you're hoping they'll have. If our support team needs to contact you for more details, I know they will (they may ask to share specific details of your case, including your contact info with the parties in question).

I do apologize if you'd expected another reply from me! The issue is being worked on.

Pony

Hi Pony, as you predicted I was contacted by someone in the TiVo Executive Relations team requesting my permission to contact Comcast and the NHL on my behalf today and I gave it. Crossing my fingers that this issue is now in the right hands after all the time I've spent on the phone with the different support teams from each company. Thanks again for your help.

-Brent

[BrianAZ]

Originally Posted by forgie716

Hi Pony, as you predicted I was contacted by someone in the TiVo Executive Relations team requesting my permission to contact Comcast and the NHL on my behalf today and I gave it. Crossing my fingers that this issue is now in the right hands after all the time I've spent on the phone with the different support teams from each company. Thanks again for your help.

-Brent

My wife received a similar call today while I was at the office (though my problem was slightly different than OPs... I can't even see Center Ice). It does seem like things are moving in the right direction. I'll report back when I hear more.

Thanks Pony!

[bluelinex]

Originally Posted by MichaelK

Sounds like the Pony knows who to call directly once you tell him your location.....

The cavalry comes to the rescue. Anyone else find it funny that Pony is the Cavalry?

Isn't the cavalry supposed to ride the pony's?

You can reply to me at Bluelinex@msn.com Time Warner says that it's the cable cards & they don't have a fix right now. I was able to receive the games for a week because they had a free preview & the signal was not scrambled. Once the preview was over off went the games, so it looks like it's a cable card issue.

[Tico]

Does anyone have a link to the requirement that Cable Co's have to give cable card users access to PPV and PPV packages?

[CrispyCritter]

Originally Posted by Tico

Does anyone have a link to the requirement that Cable Co's have to give cable card users access to PPV and PPV packages?

I don't think anybody can help you, because there is no such requirement.