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Old 10-17-2007, 09:44 AM   #1
JANNINO
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RS Corrected and RS Uncorrected Stat on THD Diagnostic Screen

Does anyone know how to decipher the statistics on this screen?

I'm having a pixelation issue on one of my THDs and in a post I saw on the Verizon Fios TV forum I was told that if the RS Corrected number is 0, then there is a problem with the Verizon signal coming in. If this number is increasing with with the pixelation, then the Tivo is causing the problem.

Can anyone provide a little more information on what the meaning of these statistics are??
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Old 10-17-2007, 09:49 AM   #2
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Do you have a link for what you're talking about? I'd love to read up on it.

Also, (and this is only a suggestion) you may want to limit the discussions of your problems to one thread to make it easier to follow the discussions, rather than have multiple threads discussing different facets of the same problem.
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Old 10-17-2007, 09:56 AM   #3
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JANNINO
Does anyone know how to decipher the statistics on this screen?

I'm having a pixelation issue on one of my THDs and in a post I saw on the Verizon Fios TV forum I was told that if the RS Corrected number is 0, then there is a problem with the Verizon signal coming in. If this number is increasing with with the pixelation, then the Tivo is causing the problem.

Can anyone provide a little more information on what the meaning of these statistics are??
RS stands for Reed-Solomon. They invented a mathmatical coding method which is capable of correcting errors in a bitstream. Their methods are incorporated in many digital data transmission schemes. In digital TV, its called FEC or Forward Error Correction.

The RS Corrected value tells you how many times the FEC algorithm had to be used to correct an error since the channel was tuned. The RS Uncorrected value tells you how may times the error exceeded the capability for FEC to correct it. If you are seeing RS Uncorrected values of 0 then all is good. Its normal for RS Corrected to increment but the lower the rate the better. The SNR value is also very important. QAM is designed around an SNR of 34db however YMMV. There are many factors driving overall digital transmission error rate.
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Old 10-17-2007, 09:59 AM   #4
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Here is an article

http://www.home.agilent.com/upload/c...MPEGPAPER2.pdf

http://electronicdesign.com/Articles...ArticleID=4648
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Old 10-17-2007, 10:08 AM   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JANNINO
Does anyone know how to decipher the statistics on this screen?

I'm having a pixelation issue on one of my THDs and in a post I saw on the Verizon Fios TV forum I was told that if the RS Corrected number is 0, then there is a problem with the Verizon signal coming in. If this number is increasing with with the pixelation, then the Tivo is causing the problem.

Can anyone provide a little more information on what the meaning of these statistics are??
Re-reading your post... my earlier post didnt fully answer your question.

If your RS Uncorrected value is holding at 0 and you are seeing video problems such as pixelations, then the problem is either bad data in the stream coming from the original provider (i.e. Discovery HD, TNT etc) or the Tivo is corrupting the stream somehow.

If you RS Uncorrected value is incrementing more than say 1 or 2 per hour then you most likely have a 'signal' problem.... too much, too little, too noisy, ingress, etc etc.
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Old 10-17-2007, 10:13 AM   #6
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SCSIRAID

I definately am seeing the RS Uncorrect value changing alot, almost by the second which probably means I have a bad signal coming in from Verizon.

Thanks - now the problem I face is trying to fix that signal and replacing the coax would be difficult at best.
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Old 10-17-2007, 10:16 AM   #7
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GoHokies!

I put two separate posts so as to not ask too many questions on one post. I also am very interested in the RS values which SCSIRAID gave a great explanation for.
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Old 10-17-2007, 10:19 AM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JANNINO
SCSIRAID

I definately am seeing the RS Uncorrect value changing alot, almost by the second which probably means I have a bad signal coming in from Verizon.

Thanks - now the problem I face is trying to fix that signal and replacing the coax would be difficult at best.
Couple questions....

1) Who is your provider? Fios? Cable?
2) Can you describe how your signal distributed... i.e. exactly what is between the source (ont or cable entring the house) and the Tivo
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Old 10-17-2007, 10:28 AM   #9
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See multiple other threads on this issue.

For FIOS, a possible fix (it worked for me and a couple others) is to attenuate your signal down to 31/32 SNR (no more than that). Your signal strength will drop to 60/70, but that's okay.

I was getting severe pixelation within a few minutes before, and now that I've attenuated my signal down, it's been fixed for a week.

Now, I only see the RS numbers go up at the beginning of a show, which appears to be when it's changing channels, and only for a brief second or less. So on the diag screen now, I see a couple thousand corrected, and a few hundred uncorrected, but it doesn't go up after the initial channel change.

Try attentuating your signal down on one of the THD's and see if the problem goes away. I had to attenuate -11db to get to 31/32 SNR. At 33 SNR, I was still seeing the pixelation/macroblocking, so I needed to get down to 31/32.
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Old 10-17-2007, 10:44 AM   #10
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SCSIRAID

I have Verizon Fios TV. The line comes into the house from the ONT to an 8 way splitter (not sure if there is an interim stop in the house). Then there is a home run shot to every TV/router in the house (i.e. 5 TVs, and 1 PC). The coax cable to the TV having the issue is RG6 quad shielded and I installed it 4 years ago (i.e. I don't believe the issue is the cable itself).

AbMagFab

Where can you get these "attentuators" from? Radio Shack perhaps? It looks liek they come in different ranges. From what I've read, I should try to attentuate down 5-7 dbs from my 36-38 range to 31 db.
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Old 10-17-2007, 10:52 AM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JANNINO
SCSIRAID

I definately am seeing the RS Uncorrect value changing alot, almost by the second which probably means I have a bad signal coming in from Verizon.

Thanks - now the problem I face is trying to fix that signal and replacing the coax would be difficult at best.
Is the RS Uncorrected changing on both tuners? I had an issue with only one of the tuners. After spending much time & effort trying to get a better signal, TiVo RMA'd the box for me and now things are fine.
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Old 10-17-2007, 10:58 AM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JANNINO
SCSIRAID

I have Verizon Fios TV. The line comes into the house from the ONT to an 8 way splitter (not sure if there is an interim stop in the house). Then there is a home run shot to every TV/router in the house (i.e. 5 TVs, and 1 PC). The coax cable to the TV having the issue is RG6 quad shielded and I installed it 4 years ago (i.e. I don't believe the issue is the cable itself).

AbMagFab

Where can you get these "attentuators" from? Radio Shack perhaps? It looks liek they come in different ranges. From what I've read, I should try to attentuate down 5-7 dbs from my 36-38 range to 31 db.
Those are different 'db's'. The attenuators reduce the signal strength which should in turn reduce the SNR. Not a 1:1 relationship. The Tivo doesnt provide actual signal strength measurements (in dbmv).

Hey AMF... I recall that Fios has a hot signal but cant remember whether its +10 or +20 dbmv.... do you remember? The 8 way will drop 11db which still is very hot if the ont output is +20. Probably want an extra 10 over that. What did you end up with?
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Old 10-17-2007, 11:00 AM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JANNINO
SCSIRAID

I have Verizon Fios TV. The line comes into the house from the ONT to an 8 way splitter (not sure if there is an interim stop in the house). Then there is a home run shot to every TV/router in the house (i.e. 5 TVs, and 1 PC). The coax cable to the TV having the issue is RG6 quad shielded and I installed it 4 years ago (i.e. I don't believe the issue is the cable itself).

AbMagFab

Where can you get these "attentuators" from? Radio Shack perhaps? It looks liek they come in different ranges. From what I've read, I should try to attentuate down 5-7 dbs from my 36-38 range to 31 db.
http://cgi.ebay.com/Brand-New-3db-At...QQcmdZViewItem
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Old 10-17-2007, 11:10 AM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SCSIRAID
I recall that Fios has a hot signal but cant remember whether its +10 or +20 dbmv.... do you remember? The 8 way will drop 11db which still is very hot if the ont output is +20. Probably want an extra 10 over that. What did you end up with?
It depends on which ONT you have. I believe the older 610 was +20 or +25 and the newer 612 is supposed to be about +10.
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Old 10-17-2007, 11:28 AM   #15
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Quote:
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It depends on which ONT you have. I believe the older 610 was +20 or +25 and the newer 612 is supposed to be about +10.
+10 with an 8 way should be right on what is typically good... -1dbm.

However, +20 or +25 with an 8 way would still be hot hot hot..... too hot... by about 10 db.
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Old 10-17-2007, 11:28 AM   #16
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It depends on which ONT you have. I believe the older 610 was +20 or +25 and the newer 612 is supposed to be about +10.
The 610 and the 612 are the most widely deployed FiOS ONTs, but there are a few other less commonly deployed models, each with varying levels of output. That's one of the reasons this issue affects some customers and not others in the same local area.

FiOS customers with some ONT installations may require one or two attenuators to get a pixelization-free signal on their Tivo, while others may require none at all.

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Old 10-17-2007, 11:46 AM   #17
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AMF

Can you put on more than one attenuator to get to the level you desire (i.e. can you put a 3db and a 6 db to get 9db in total)?
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Old 10-17-2007, 12:02 PM   #18
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Jannino has a moca setup, which I believe assumes a 612 ONT, no? If so the signal is at +10 before the splitter and around zero after the 8-way.

Either way, it is worth having VZ out to measure the signal. Ask the tech for some attenuators even if the signal is OK. They are good to have for troubelshooting.
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Old 10-17-2007, 12:07 PM   #19
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What would be the ideal signal strength as measured by:

1) the Verizon tech?
2) the Tivo diagnostic screen?

My tivos are running around 36 to 38 dB as measured by the diagonstic screen but it appears that from prior responses I should be no lower than 31 db as measured by the diagnostic screen.
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Old 10-17-2007, 12:31 PM   #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JANNINO
What would be the ideal signal strength as measured by:

1) the Verizon tech?
2) the Tivo diagnostic screen?

My tivos are running around 36 to 38 dB as measured by the diagonstic screen but it appears that from prior responses I should be no lower than 31 db as measured by the diagnostic screen.
The 36-38 is NOT a signal strength.... its a Signal to Noise Ratio. Tivo doesnt provide an actual 'measurement' but more of a 'merit figure' for signal strength.

'Ideal' signal strength is probably around 0dbmv but from what I have learned about Fios... it defies 'ideals'.

As to SNR, conventional thinking is that QAM 256 should be in the 34-35 db range. However, that doesnt seem to hold for Fios as evidenced by quite a few folks that have bad results at that level (due to reasons unknown).
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Old 10-17-2007, 12:32 PM   #21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JANNINO
AMF

Can you put on more than one attenuator to get to the level you desire (i.e. can you put a 3db and a 6 db to get 9db in total)?
Im not AMF.... but attenuators are additive... stack em up and add the values together.
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Old 10-18-2007, 03:01 AM   #22
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This is an interesting discussion. I've been trying to figure out the cause of some occasional pixelation with my S3. Originally I had signal strength readings in the 90's, and in fact, for some of the digital cable channels are still around that figure, but my local HD stations have gone from the 90's down to low 80's even dropping into the 70's.

After reading about the RS numbers above I checked mine.

On Tuner 2 I'm getting a fluctuating strength reading of 77-81 with an RS uncorrected number of 280 with a corrected number in the 5 million range. A SNR of 33

On Tuner 1 I'm getting a strength reading of 81 with an RS uncorrected of 0 and a corrected of 22. SNR is 33.

Based on the above I think a call to the cable company(Comcast) is in order as it looks like the signal quality is a bit too weak to drive both tuners adequately.

Any thoughts, or input?

Thanks.

<edit>

Changing channels to reset the numbers shows that one channel in particular seems to have a real problem, within 1 minute of tune, it's already at 150000 corrected errors - problem with the cable company, or a problem with the station's signal..?? This particular station is where I get most of the pixelation issues, although I do get them on the others as well.

Last edited by keenanSR : 10-18-2007 at 03:08 AM.
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Old 10-18-2007, 07:36 AM   #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by keenanSR
This is an interesting discussion. I've been trying to figure out the cause of some occasional pixelation with my S3. Originally I had signal strength readings in the 90's, and in fact, for some of the digital cable channels are still around that figure, but my local HD stations have gone from the 90's down to low 80's even dropping into the 70's.

After reading about the RS numbers above I checked mine.

On Tuner 2 I'm getting a fluctuating strength reading of 77-81 with an RS uncorrected number of 280 with a corrected number in the 5 million range. A SNR of 33

On Tuner 1 I'm getting a strength reading of 81 with an RS uncorrected of 0 and a corrected of 22. SNR is 33.

Based on the above I think a call to the cable company(Comcast) is in order as it looks like the signal quality is a bit too weak to drive both tuners adequately.

Any thoughts, or input?

Thanks.

<edit>

Changing channels to reset the numbers shows that one channel in particular seems to have a real problem, within 1 minute of tune, it's already at 150000 corrected errors - problem with the cable company, or a problem with the station's signal..?? This particular station is where I get most of the pixelation issues, although I do get them on the others as well.
Yup... sounds like the cableco could do some optimizing and improve your situation. Signal strength below 80 will quite likely be a problem. The 90's would be much better. Can you describe your wiring between where the cable enters the house and the Tivo? Splitters can easily cause the problems you describe. Poor quality cables and loose fittings can also cause it. You might try unhooking your coax cables and reconnecting them making sure to snug them up good.

For that 280 uncorrected number... how long were you tuned to that channel. There is a tune time in the diagnostic menu too. Its the rate of uncorrected that is really important.
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Old 10-18-2007, 10:18 AM   #24
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Originally Posted by SCSIRAID
Yup... sounds like the cableco could do some optimizing and improve your situation. Signal strength below 80 will quite likely be a problem. The 90's would be much better. Can you describe your wiring between where the cable enters the house and the Tivo? Splitters can easily cause the problems you describe. Poor quality cables and loose fittings can also cause it. You might try unhooking your coax cables and reconnecting them making sure to snug them up good.

For that 280 uncorrected number... how long were you tuned to that channel. There is a tune time in the diagnostic menu too. Its the rate of uncorrected that is really important.
I'm not sure how long it was tuned to that channel for the 280 number. I recorded on that channel from 9-11pm and I checked the diagnostic screen at around 12am so I'm guessing it was around 3 hrs, although that tuner may have been tuned to the channel prior to 9pm. I'll check today and time it to see what the numbers read.

The line in from the pole is a straight shot with possibly 1 joiner at the roof and then it's fed through a grounding block. From there it feeds a 1GHz splitter with one output to a Moto cable amp that feeds an HDHR digital PC tuner and an un-amped feed straight to the S3. The lines within the house are all cut to length professionally terminated. I have not done a visual inspection on the line from the grounding block back to the pole yet, but baring more rain that is something I will do today.

I tried feeding the S3 an amplified signal but it seems to make no difference and in fact decreases the signal strength. The decrease is consistent with my testing this about a year ago when I first got the S3, an amplified signal actually made the signal quality worse with lower strength readings.

I also eliminated the splitter as a test and it makes no difference, the signal strength remains consistent with the current low 80's. When first tuning the channel I can see the number start off high, say an 86-87 very briefly, but then it settles very quickly back down to the very low 80's.

As I noted, last Sept, my readings were in the low to mid 90's, and although I've been through a few software revisions with the S3 I don't believe those revisions would cause any change in the tuner signal strength readings, and in fact, I did not have the pixelation problem back then either. This has been developing over the past few months so my assumption is that something has changed at the cable end as I believe my end has remained static.

Comcast has been upgrading my area to a 1GHz system over the past few months, but I don't believe there has been any "switchover" yet on any lines/equipment that may have caused this. There has been no visible change in the channel lineup and/or announcement from Comcast that the switch to 1GHz from 550MHz has been done. The actual "change" is supposed to happen in Dec.

I'll post some timed readings later today. Meanwhile I'm going to call Comcast. My worry there is that they may test the line and say it's fine based on how well their equipment(STBs) works with the current signal, hopefully they will agree there is a problem.
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Old 10-19-2007, 01:18 AM   #25
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Okay, ran a 1 hour test and got the following readings.

For the CBS station,

Uncorrected - 0
Corrected - 11

For the NBC station,

Uncorrected - 286
Corrected - 4558107

Current readings for ABC, 4276 secs since tune start,

Uncorrected - 1433
Corrected - 141404

For NBC again, 987 secs since tune start,

Uncorrected - 39
Corrected - 5163280

S3 never was tuned to the FOX station tonight. It seems to me I definitely have a signal problem. Comcast will be here in the AM...
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Old 10-19-2007, 07:00 AM   #26
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Quote:
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Okay, ran a 1 hour test and got the following readings.

For the CBS station,

Uncorrected - 0
Corrected - 11

For the NBC station,

Uncorrected - 286
Corrected - 4558107

Current readings for ABC, 4276 secs since tune start,

Uncorrected - 1433
Corrected - 141404

For NBC again, 987 secs since tune start,

Uncorrected - 39
Corrected - 5163280

S3 never was tuned to the FOX station tonight. It seems to me I definitely have a signal problem. Comcast will be here in the AM...
Yup.... signal problem or bad tuner.
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Old 10-19-2007, 10:21 AM   #27
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Originally Posted by SCSIRAID
Yup.... signal problem or bad tuner.
Could a tuner just go bad? That would seem like a longshot to me but I guess it's possible, the S3 has been flawless since last Sept other than this recent signal problem.
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Old 10-19-2007, 01:07 PM   #28
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Well, Comcast has been and gone and they say the signal looks good, but, he said he was going to have their in-house "TiVo whiz kid" come out on Sunday. Today's guy was complaining about CableCARDs and TiVo from the minute he got here.
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Old 10-19-2007, 01:24 PM   #29
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Could a tuner just go bad? That would seem like a longshot to me but I guess it's possible, the S3 has been flawless since last Sept other than this recent signal problem.
Its possible but its more likely that its a signal problem in my opinion. You could change channels until you get the problem ones on the 'other' tuner and check the numbers there. If they are similar on both tuners then you have eliminated the tuner as a problem.
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Old 10-19-2007, 01:54 PM   #30
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Its possible but its more likely that its a signal problem in my opinion. You could change channels until you get the problem ones on the 'other' tuner and check the numbers there. If they are similar on both tuners then you have eliminated the tuner as a problem.
Yes, I've been playing around with that right now.

Another indicator to me that it's a signal problem is that the recordings made from an HDHR networked tuner also exhibit some signal anomalies, while they don't manifest in exactly the same way - a pixiedust like artifact on the S3 shows up as just a brief flash on the HDHR recording, which could be due to different software encoding/decoding on the PC side - is does seem to prove that the signal is in question.

Last edited by keenanSR : 10-19-2007 at 02:02 PM.
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