TiVo Fall 2007 Update Apparently Breaks TivoToGo/Toast on the Mac

[shulcslt]

Originally Posted by kmitchell

I haven't had the time to test this out but could the quality of the recording be causing the burn process to hang? Without knowing the contents of the metadata it's hard to see how but it seems to be the pattern of "some shows burn and and some don't" could be related to record quality.

Just a theory,
Ken

Same quality recordings. Same machine(s). Can't find an apparent pattern.

[kentsavage]

I also have the same problem with shows transferred this week. I am transferring a show recorded Saturday before the update and will see how that goes. I have no problem transferring, just encoding.

Kent

[djliquidice]

i've tried finding a pattern as well, i have two series 2's and nothing.

[bmel]

from roxio:

Thank you for contacting Roxio Technical Support



We have confirmed that recent TiVo Fall 2007 Software Update for the TiVo unit has caused the TiVo files not appearing correctly in the TiVo Transfer window and burning to DVD stuck at 0% or 1%.



We have provided the information to TiVo and are currently working on a fix for the issue and will provide an update on our website as soon as we can.



Thanks for contacting Roxio Customer Care. Let us know if you need further assistance on this issue by clicking the Update button.



Regards,



Roxio Technical Support
http://support.roxio.com

[kentsavage]

For what it may add I have two Macs, an iMac G5 and a black macbook. The symptoms differ slightly. On the G5 both the name and episode field are messed up. The program name shows the filename with extension and the episode field is blank. On the Macbook the name field is OK but the episode field is blank. On both the TV station is blank

On the Bootcamp partition on the macbook I was able to transfer the file using tivo server 2.5 and burn a DVD using MyDVD6 no problem.

I also tried transferring a program recorded before the update to the macbook and burning it last night but it froze too.

All the machines will play the files fine.

It looks to me like Tivo Transfer has some problem parsing the file metadata and that or something else causes Toast 8 to hang.

Kent

[djliquidice]

i wonder how long it would take. this is over a week now.

[ZZip]

got my tivo update and now suddenly the opensource tools I use to process
the recordings are failing (complaing about invalid group of pictures (GOP)
headers)

I am not using a mac, but my problems sound similar to what is happening
here, so I wonder if it's a problem with the new tivo software in general,
and not Mac/Roxio?

[Sluggo042]

Originally Posted by ZZip

got my tivo update and now suddenly the opensource tools I use to process
the recordings are failing (complaing about invalid group of pictures (GOP)
headers)

I am not using a mac, but my problems sound similar to what is happening
here, so I wonder if it's a problem with the new tivo software in general,
and not Mac/Roxio?

Well, the fellow from Roxio acknowledged earlier in this thread that there was a change in Tivo's video file metadata structure. And as it appears he was surprised when his Tivo>Mac link broke (he only went looking for the problem once he read about it here) I can only assume that Roxio wasn't aware that this change was imminent, or at very least they thought it wouldn't break Roxio's software. This suggests to me that Tivo wasn't completely upfront about the change to their partners before they pushed it to the public. Considering the length of time it took Tivo to provide TivoToGo to us Mac folk, despite many broken promises, and long periods of no communication at all, Tivo failing to notify their partners of critical changes doesn't suprise me in the least.

But, putting my gripes aside , I would expect that any piece of software, Mac, Windows, or otherwise, written prior to the recent update, has a significant chance of breaking when trying to access post-Update Tivo video files. We know the format changed. If the software makes assumptions about where to find the video, and the new format doesn't fit those assumptions, then the software may well be unable to read the video data, or correctly parse the metadata.

That said, you have one possible benefit over us Toast users - the coder community that wrote your open source tools may be able to get fixes out there more quickly than a commercial software outfit, which I imagine has a bunch of QA and testing to do before they can release their fix. OTOH, at least we know Roxio is on the case - if the developers of your software have moved on to other things, you might not get a fix at all.

Doug G.

[saberman]

It also breaks it on Windows XP SP2 using TiVo desktop.

I have .tivo files that were transferred to the PC using TiVo to go and successfully transferred back using TiVo goback (Tivo desktop) before the fall update. Now it takes three to six tries to get a .tivo file to transfer back to the TiVo. The error message even says to try again.

What is even worse is that MPG files won't transfer at all. You can get the transfer to start but then it fails with an error message that says that "either the file length is wrong or the file is corrupted". I have hundreds of Gigabytes of video on my PC (all of it legal) that I can no longer watch on the TiVo.

I tried calling TiVo support and waited over ten minutes for the first level to get on. He said that TiVo changed the file format for the .tive transfer files and that files transfered with previous versions of the TiVo software could not be be transferred back using the latest version. I pointed out that they can -- it just takes two to six tries to get the file transfer to start and that this was obviously a software bug not a file format change. (If TiVo was going to change the file format transferred to the PC it would have supplied a conversion program to convert the millions of files folks already transferred to avoid being .) In addition, TiVo still says you can view MPG files so the inability to transfer them is also an obvious bug. I suggested he transfer me to the next level up since all he had was bad information.

He gave me a case number and then transferred me. I spent another then minutes on hold until I heard the line ring once and then go dead.

So I called again and waited for twenty minutes listening to the promotion for Amzaon unbox. (If TiVo can't even transfer back video files they created and transferred to the PC how are they going to reliably download videos from Amazon?)

Ah -- someone picked up. I explained that I had called before and that when the first level person transferred me to the next level I was hold for ten minutes and then the phone rang once and went dead. I asked if he needed the case number and he said he had it and saw that I was transferred. He said they were having a problem with their phones but he would make sure I was transferred probperly. Then the music came on. A few minutes later the line went dead.

I have dialed again and am back in the first queue. It it now one hour since the first attempt to reach TiVo support.

Ah -- another answer after only twenty minutes. This time I asked for a direct number. Not only doesn't level one have one but they cannot even setup a conference call to make sure the transfer goes through.

The third one was the charm. Level two says I have to upgrade my TiVo desktop. I asked them what about products that use the TiVo SDK -- like galleon. The answer was TiVo does not support anything but it's desktop software. So I guess the SDK is not supported. I then suggested that they change the script the Level one folks have since they are told that the file format changed and that any .tivo file transferred with an older version of the TiVo OS could not be transferred back.

So after one hour and ten minutes I am off to try a new version of the TiVo desktop. Of course without galleon I have to have four or five hundred video files in one list. Now what are the odds that TiVo can handle that?

Talk to you later.

[Sluggo042]

Originally Posted by saberman

(If TiVo was going to change the file format transferred to the PC it would have supplied a conversion program to convert the millions of files folks already transferred to avoid being .)

OK, ya lost me there. Why would there be need for a conversion program? All those millions of files already on PCs are still there and viewable using existing viewer software. It would seem to me that any change to the file format would only affect transfers conducted post-Update.

Of course, I think that your own experience with Tivo Support kinda answers the question. Given how difficult they make customer support (long wait times, lack of any online method of reporting problems), is it in any way surprising that they're perfectly happy to make changes that inconvenience a few of their users? I suspect those of us using the file transfer capabilties make up a minor fraction of their user base. I'm not saying it is right to treat us this way, but rather, that nothing TiVo does surprises me much any more. I'm quite happy that the solution to my problem lies with Roxio, even though I think it is TiVo's fault in the first place.

Doug G.

[ZZip]

Originally Posted by Sluggo042

Well, the fellow from Roxio acknowledged earlier in this thread that there was a change in Tivo's video file metadata structure. And as it appears he was surprised when his Tivo>Mac link broke (he only went looking for the problem once he read about it here) I can only assume that Roxio wasn't aware that this change was imminent, or at very least they thought it wouldn't break Roxio's software. This suggests to me that Tivo wasn't completely upfront about the change to their partners before they pushed it to the public. Considering the length of time it took Tivo to provide TivoToGo to us Mac folk, despite many broken promises, and long periods of no communication at all, Tivo failing to notify their partners of critical changes doesn't suprise me in the least.

To me, it seems that the changes are more than just metadata. The video files now seem to break the MPEG format. Before, most tools that could handle mpegs would handle the tivo files just fine. Now some tools won't open them at all, and some will open with alot of errors (and freeze if you try to convert the files).

So I don't know if they accidentally or deliberatly broke the MPEG format.

That said, you have one possible benefit over us Toast users - the coder community that wrote your open source tools may be able to get fixes out there more quickly than a commercial software outfit, which I imagine has a bunch of QA and testing to do before they can release their fix. OTOH, at least we know Roxio is on the case - if the developers of your software have moved on to other things, you might not get a fix at all.

Well, there isn't much support for Tivo in the coder community, and information is hard to come by. Before I had to do alot of trial and error to build a process that converts TV shows to DVD or portables.

What's annoying is this is the second time they broke TTG in a year for me. I really think my next DVR is going to be a mythTV box so I don't have to worry about vendor changes.

[TiVo Kid 2003]

I'll just throw my hat in the ring & say that since the update, I've been having problems with about 20% of the files transfered from my Humax S2 TiVo. My older "Tivo brand" S2 Tivo does not show the symptoms.

What I see is that the file transfers OK (full size transfer, not truncated), but the video file doesn't open properly in VideoRedo, Windows Media player, etc....

The file is always less time than reality. Sometimes it shows as 20 minutes long, sometimes 40 minutes....

If I transfer the file via https instead of the desktop software, I get the same result. I don't think the problem is with the desktop software.

I believe there is a bug/problem with how the Humax Tivo is packaging / streaming the file. As I understand it, the Humax box is kinda cheap (weaker processor, etc...) so that might explain the problem, maybe the processor can't keep up with the demands of the encoding & transfer. Who knows...

I'm using Win2K & Tivo Desktop 2.3a, but I really don't think that's the problem. I had NO ISSUES until this 9.1 fall update.

In the remote chance that someone from TiVo reads this -- this seems to happen when multiple programs on the same channel are recorded back to back. I want to say the first program in the chain after a channel change seems OK, but subsequent programs seem to be garbled... but don't quote me on that.

[djliquidice]

no updates yet from roxio/tivo.... this is frustrating.

[Sluggo042]

Originally Posted by ZZip

To me, it seems that the changes are more than just metadata. The video files now seem to break the MPEG format. Before, most tools that could handle mpegs would handle the tivo files just fine. Now some tools won't open them at all, and some will open with alot of errors (and freeze if you try to convert the files).

So I don't know if they accidentally or deliberatly broke the MPEG format.

I have a limited perspective as I'm dealing with this on a Mac, and am only using the specific TivoToGo/Roxio Toast route to move files, but I'm not seeing a lot of the problems other people are reporting. I can transfer successfully until the cows come home, it's just the post-move conversions that fail for me. And even there, Toast Video Player plays the files fine, which is why I've been saying the MPEG info seems intact. None of which completely rules out a scenario in which the file format has been broken in a deeper sense, or in a fashion that breaks differently on different TiVo boxes. However, MPEG is a complicated beast, and it wouldn't be difficult for a simple format change to the envelope Tivo packs it in to exhibit a lot of bizarre behavior from programs attempting to unwrap it.

Originally Posted by ZZip

I really think my next DVR is going to be a mythTV box so I don't have to worry about vendor changes.

Roger that!

[TiVo Kid 2003]

Originally Posted by ZZip

What's annoying is this is the second time they broke TTG in a year for me. I really think my next DVR is going to be a mythTV box so I don't have to worry about vendor changes.

Second that. A working TTG is the main reason I keep using the TiVo(s). I travel a lot & like to download / convert my Damages / Shield / Criminal Intent / etc. and watch them on the road. As soon as that becomes painful (and it is), any of the PC-based alternatives win, with MythTV being the winner in my mind.

(I put "any of the PC-based alternatives" ahead of TiVo, because even a commercial offering doesn't force updates down your throat. You update the PC software when you feel it's warranted.)

[ZZip]

Originally Posted by Sluggo042

I have a limited perspective as I'm dealing with this on a Mac, and am only using the specific TivoToGo/Roxio Toast route to move files, but I'm not seeing a lot of the problems other people are reporting. I can transfer successfully until the cows come home, it's just the post-move conversions that fail for me. And even there, Toast Video Player plays the files fine, which is why I've been saying the MPEG info seems intact. None of which completely rules out a scenario in which the file format has been broken in a deeper sense, or in a fashion that breaks differently on different TiVo boxes. However, MPEG is a complicated beast, and it wouldn't be difficult for a simple format change to the envelope Tivo packs it in to exhibit a lot of bizarre behavior from programs attempting to unwrap it.

I can play the videos too in some players I have installed, but every editor I've tried complains about the format, and they hang exportting the file. So it does sound similar to your problem

[saberman]

Originally Posted by Sluggo042

OK, ya lost me there. Why would there be need for a conversion program? All those millions of files already on PCs are still there and viewable using existing viewer software. It would seem to me that any change to the file format would only affect transfers conducted post-Update.

Of course, I think that your own experience with Tivo Support kinda answers the question. Given how difficult they make customer support (long wait times, lack of any online method of reporting problems), is it in any way surprising that they're perfectly happy to make changes that inconvenience a few of their users? I suspect those of us using the file transfer capabilties make up a minor fraction of their user base. I'm not saying it is right to treat us this way, but rather, that nothing TiVo does surprises me much any more. I'm quite happy that the solution to my problem lies with Roxio, even though I think it is TiVo's fault in the first place.

Doug G.

Ah -- but if they changed the file format (which they didn't) then you couldn't transfer old .tivo files back to the TiVo. It turns out that TiVo gave their level one support people wrong information. What changed was the communications protocal between the TiVo and the PC. Going to the latest version of TiVo desktop fixed the PC to TiVo problem. Unfortunately, the TiVo to PC transfers now take 10 times as long.

I think a large percentage of TiVo users transfer files. However, TiVo has been concentrating on the S3 which does not yet transfer files. I suspect they do very little testing of S2 boxes (other than they boot OK) even though TiVo is still selling them. The file transfer problems would have been picked up in a minimal set of regression tests -- indicating that TiVo didn't do any.

[Sluggo042]

Originally Posted by saberman

Ah -- but if they changed the file format (which they didn't) then you couldn't transfer old .tivo files back to the TiVo.

How does that follow? Transport mechanisms typically don't care what is in the payload. They just shuffle packets of bits back and forth, and reassemble an intact file at the destination. They generally don't look at the contents of the file. The transfer process shouldn't care if it was an old format .tivo file or a new one. And since a post-update Tivo still plays shows recorded before the update (even if the show in question never left the Tivo via transfer), then certainly the programers made provision to play either type of file.

It may well be more complicated than a simple format change. The fact that everyone is reporting different symptoms argues for that. For instance, I'm not seeing any increased transfer time at all. In fact, I suspect that there may have been improvements to the process, as I used to get a lot of partial transfers, and I've not seen that once since the update (knock on wood). However, the symptoms I'm seeing do seem compatible with the idea of a file format change. Expecially given that the one comment we've had from someone in the know said as much.

(BTW, Patatrox, this might be a nifty point to jump in and put all this speculation out of its misery and just tell us what's really going on, if you have a moment )

[ZZip]

I am not seeing increased transfer times either, and I'm still using the same version of Galleon to transfer files that I was using before.

I think I may have found a potential workaround for the problems I was experiencing on Linux. (I can view, but not edit the files since the 9.1 update).

I used mencoder to transfer the whole file into avi format, I can then edit the file and reencode it into DVD-compatible format. It's not ideal since the file is reencoded twice, and loses quality each time, but it might be good enough to process the last 5 shows I want to keep from my TiVo. I'll just use my PC TV card to record new shows I want to archive unless and until Tivo fixes this.

I'm not sure if there's a way to do something similar on the Mac.

It looks like the problem has to do with the way the videos are indexed now, if you watch them all the way through, great. If you try to skip around or save off parts of the file, the software gets confused. In mplayer, it shows how many seconds into the video you are, if you skip around, that counter gets confused and might show 75 seconds when you might really be 500 seconds into it.

[animalism2]

The TivoDecoder Applescript still works. I dusted off the old hack, which I haven't needed since I got Toast, and I was surprised that my old procedure still works!

Anyway, I hope that's a clue that can help Roxio move this along.

[saberman]

Originally Posted by Sluggo042

How does that follow? Transport mechanisms typically don't care what is in the payload. They just shuffle packets of bits back and forth, and reassemble an intact file at the destination. They generally don't look at the contents of the file. The transfer process shouldn't care if it was an old format .tivo file or a new one. And since a post-update Tivo still plays shows recorded before the update (even if the show in question never left the Tivo via transfer), then certainly the programers made provision to play either type of file.

I think I was not very clear. When I finally reached level 1 TiVo support with my problem in transferring .tivo files from the PC to the TiVo the tech support person said that the file format was changed and therefore stuff transfered before the latest upgrade could not be transferred back. This was obviously not the case as I could, after trying three to six times, get a .tivo file to transfer back from the PC to the TiVo.

If TiVo did change the file format of a .tivo file the transfer back from the PC to the TiVo would probably fail as the TiVo would not be able to interprete the encrypted information in the .tivo file. It would not be a failure in the transport protocal which, as you correctly point out, is only concerned with moving bits from one place to another. It would be a failure in the next layer where the bits need to be interpreted.

In any event the latest release of the TiVo software is extremely buggy. My Living Room TiVo cannot see the PC at all. It can see the Bedroom TiVo but cannot list the files recorded on it. The Bedroom TiVo can see the PC and all of the video files on it.

The PC can see the Living Room TiVo and transfer -- very slowly -- shows recorded on it to the PC.

I will try rebooting the Living Room TiVo as soon as the transfer to the PC completes -- which will be in a day or two. This is for four hours of medium recording or a total of 4GB.

[TiVo Kid 2003]

Originally Posted by saberman

Ah -- but if they changed the file format (which they didn't) then you couldn't transfer old .tivo files back to the TiVo. It turns out that TiVo gave their level one support people wrong information. What changed was the communications protocal between the TiVo and the PC. Going to the latest version of TiVo desktop fixed the PC to TiVo problem. Unfortunately, the TiVo to PC transfers now take 10 times as long.

Have you tried transferring directly via https & the Tivo's IP address? When I do (bypassing the desktop software, which for me is 2.3a) I get the exact same file (i.e. same size & contents). For that reason I don't think it's the desktop software. (My transfers don't take any longer than they used to, either.)

I'm pretty sure it's the whole "on the fly" conversion/encoding of the recorded program into the stream that's sent to the PC. Something changed. JMHO.

[Sluggo042]

Originally Posted by saberman

In any event the latest release of the TiVo software is extremely buggy. My Living Room TiVo cannot see the PC at all. It can see the Bedroom TiVo but cannot list the files recorded on it. The Bedroom TiVo can see the PC and all of the video files on it.

It's possible that there's been some sort of change to networking code that is causing your symptoms, in addition to the metadata change. My setup is much simpler than yours - one Tivo, one Mac, connected wirelessly, so there's not a lot of chatter going back and forth between boxes. A metadata change could still explain the problem though - if all of these networked boxes transmit header data back and forth so that it can be displayed on selection menus, it wouldn't take much to honk up the data getting swapped. And as you said previously, this all points to some deficient testing prior to release.

I think the comment TivoKid made is very germane. On the Mac, the transport and encoding functions are performed independently. First the file is moved, and only after it is completely on the Mac does the actual processing begin. If the process on the PC is somehow combined (move some bits, encode them, move some more, etc.), then a problem with encoding would definitely impact the transfer speed. I'd definitely try the direct IP transfer TivoKid suggests.

[saberman]

The GoBack seems to be working - at least it now lists the files.

However, I cannot play anything with a .tvio extension using either Windows Media Player 11 or Nero's Show Time. (3.x) on the PC. These used to work.

[djliquidice]

I got tired of dicking around with the Tivo software. it seems that the stuff that is FREE out there works perfectly.

Demux by the use of direct show dump and then compress with 3GP Converter. it's such a shame that the tools that we BUY from tivo and rixio have these issues. What is it that the GNU Folks know that the tivo team does not?

[Sparkylulu]

I am soooooo glad to see that I am not the only one with this problem. I wrote to Roxio, I posted here....
I noticed something, though. When a show is transferred to tivo transfer the channel is listed as n/a. It is only those shows that will not encode. I can't export. I can't burn. It hangs on 0%. Like everyone else.
Glad to know I am not the only one and someone is on it for the fix.
these n/a channel shows are not tivocast. They are shows that indicate correct channels on the tivo transfer like Comedy central, espn, etc. But when they are offloaded to the macbook, the channels themselves are listed as n/a. I can watch on my mac but I can't transfer to my ipod. Which is the reason I use it.

[vfrben]

every show i've tried to burn lately hangs up at 0%. in addition, these newer shows will not even play in the toast viewer.

[fgrimes]

I can confirm that transferring from TiVo to Mac works fine. When I export from toast it creates a file but does make any progress to complete the export.

[javabird]

Same problem here-- I can transfer the file to my Mac using Tivo Transfer, but when trying to burn to a DVD, it stays at 0%.
As an experiment, I tried downloading the same movie using TivoDecode Manager, and tried to use Toast to burn the mpeg file to a DVD. It still stayed at 0%.

[philvh]

Seems to be a variety of symptoms -- none good -- stemming from the Fall 2007 "update." I've seen no reference thus far to the one I'm experiencing with Mac OS 10.4.10 and Toast Titanium 8.01. In Tivo Transfer, the previously recorded library displays just fine, though I haven't yet tried to burn. But I get nothing more than a spinning gear when trying to see the DVR's directory.