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Old 10-05-2007, 05:35 AM   #391
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Quote:
Originally Posted by morac
I'm pretty sure they'll use a time limit since many people just leave their boxes on all the time.
I thought I remember reading (with regard to the dongle) that there was a four hour (or maybe three hour?) reconfirmation component to its design.
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Old 10-05-2007, 05:53 AM   #392
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Originally Posted by snowbunny
Has TiVo explicitly said that they will deliver a fix to the SDV problem? Or are we still hoping to pressure TWC et al to not use SDV?
The have explicitly said they are working with the cabelcos on a solution which will include a dongle.
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Old 10-05-2007, 09:31 AM   #393
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Originally Posted by ah30k
Bierboy, I know you've been around a long while so I'm stumped as to your rookie mistake. This has been all over this forum already.
Since SDV has no impact on me (and, given our cableco, probably won't for a very long time), I've paid no attention to the threads about it in these fora. I had just stumbled on this, so, of course, ignore my addled ramblings....
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Old 10-05-2007, 10:04 AM   #394
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Originally Posted by snowbunny
Has TiVo explicitly said that they will deliver a fix to the SDV problem? Or are we still hoping to pressure TWC et al to not use SDV?
This is their official position. A fix is in the making, but is not yet available.

Quote:
Originally Posted by snowbunny
Can an S2 (which is still connected to the cable company's digital converter box) *record* in HD? If so, and MRV is becomes reality, could that recording then be transferred from the S2 to the S3 (assuming that the recording is not flagged as copyrighted)?
The S2 is incapable of recording HD content. If you hook up a S2 to a HD cable box and using s-video or RCA jacks then the S2 will record HD channels, but they will only be in SD since the cable box will down-convert it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by snowbunny
I can see why there'd be no reason to transfer an HD recording from an S3 to an S2 (S2 cannot display HD) but I can see a very good reason for allowing the transfer from an S2 to an S3.
It's been said that SD content will be transferable.
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Old 10-05-2007, 10:04 AM   #395
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Originally Posted by jrm01
The have explicitly said they are working with the cabelcos on a solution which will include a dongle.
I don't thnk the cable companies have agreed to actually make it and distribute it yet. I believe Tivo has said this solution would work for them. I'm not as convinced the cable companies have bought into it yet.
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Old 10-05-2007, 10:43 AM   #396
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also- hate to be the wet blanket- but the cable filing specifically says something like FUTURE devices might work with it. And the Tivo statement says nothing specific about CURRENT model tivo's.

Myself I assume tivo can upgrade the S3's and THD's in use to use the new thingie but i wouldn't bet my house on it. (maybe a paycheck- but not the house or even a car...)

Also, I'd have to agree that I'm not convinced either that cable will universally support it unless the FCC mandates it and they dont show any leanings to do that of late....
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Old 10-05-2007, 11:05 AM   #397
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Cable will support it to the extent they believe that failing to do so might result in more stringent and less friendly requirements regarding separable authentication. So that means that cable companies for whom those requirements were waived will care very little, and those for who those requirements are enforced will care more.
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Old 10-05-2007, 02:29 PM   #398
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HiDefGator
I don't thnk the cable companies have agreed to actually make it and distribute it yet. I believe Tivo has said this solution would work for them. I'm not as convinced the cable companies have bought into it yet.
Maybe the individual cablecos haven't agreed to it, but their organization has agreed to it with the FCC.

Quote:
Great progress has been made and the National Cable & Telecommunications Association (NCTA) revealed the solution in a filing with the FCC. The agreed-upon solution is a small external adapter, called a tuning resolver, which will attach to the back of the CableCARD device and enable two-way communication with the cable headend so that switched digital channels can be received by TiVo products

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Old 10-05-2007, 03:27 PM   #399
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Originally Posted by MichaelK
also- hate to be the wet blanket- but the cable filing specifically says something like FUTURE devices might work with it. And the Tivo statement says nothing specific about CURRENT model tivo's.

Myself I assume tivo can upgrade the S3's and THD's in use to use the new thingie but i wouldn't bet my house on it. (maybe a paycheck- but not the house or even a car...)

Also, I'd have to agree that I'm not convinced either that cable will universally support it unless the FCC mandates it and they dont show any leanings to do that of late....
The NCTA filing says:
Quote:
With only firmware modifications to new UDCP products, and a USB 2.0
connection, properly equipped UDCPs could receive programming offered on SDV channels. Many currently deployed UDCPs, including TiVo DVRs, have one or more USB 2.0 connectors and might even be upgradeable with firmware for SDV.
(Emphasis added). I read this to mean that new UDCP products could be designed to work with these devices from the beginning and that some current device (like the UDCP TiVos) might be capable of using it.

The beginning of the announcement at TiVo's site reads:
Quote:
Currently, switched digital channels are unavailable to TiVo DVRs that use CableCARDs. However, the cable industry is working with TiVo and others to develop a technical fix so that TiVo devices will be able to access these switched digital channels.
To me, this is talking about a current problem with current products and a prospective fix for that problem with current products. Not some mythical future TiVo CableCARD models, of which there arguably will be none if they fail to fix this.

As I see it, TiVo doesn't need for cable to manufacture and distribute this thing--they could make and sell it themselves, if they have access to the proprietary protocols being used to deploy SDV.
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Old 10-06-2007, 01:45 AM   #400
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Originally Posted by bicker
I thought I remember reading (with regard to the dongle) that there was a four hour (or maybe three hour?) reconfirmation component to its design.
Comcast SDV spec says that this parameter must configurable though it appears that they have chosen 4 hours to start. This is for all STBs not just the dongle. There is also a sepatate flag to indicate that a show is being recorded on a DVR box so that the bandwidth is not marked as reclaimable while any DVR is recording it.
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Old 10-06-2007, 06:54 AM   #401
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Originally Posted by mikeyts
As I see it, TiVo doesn't need for cable to manufacture and distribute this thing--they could make and sell it themselves, if they have access to the proprietary protocols being used to deploy SDV.
I suspect since each cable company has different hardwrae configured in numerous different ways that the dongle or the firmware for it or the software for it would have to come from each cable company. Ever tried getting a cable company to do something just for a handful of Tivo S3 owners?
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Old 10-06-2007, 02:55 PM   #402
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With todays "field programmable" devices, I believe that UDCP box manufacturers could make them themselves and program when installed.
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Old 10-06-2007, 06:43 PM   #403
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It could follow the CableCARD model, with a proprietary protocol spoken to the headend and a standardized protocol between the host the "tuning resolver". That would need an amendment to CFR Title 47 Part 76 to require that the cable companies stock the appropriate model "tuning resolver". Alternatively, they could standardize both protocols (host-to-resolver and resolver-to-headend) and anyone could manufacture and distribute (or sell) them. Unlike CableCARD, there is no security concern to push the former model.

No use speculating--we'll see how it comes out. I think that the existence and wording of TiVo's customer notice encouraging (and the fact that it's not accompanied by some BS "these are forward-looking statements which do not commit in any way" disclaimer).
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Old 10-06-2007, 06:56 PM   #404
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mikeyts
No use speculating--we'll see how it comes out.
However, some folks need to make decisions now, and that'll be the case going forward, based on a best guess about how this will all work out.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mikeyts
I think that the existence and wording of TiVo's customer notice encouraging (and the fact that it's not accompanied by some BS "these are forward-looking statements which do not commit in any way" disclaimer).
Well, I wouldn't be so sure.

"... TiVo does not represent or guarantee the truthfulness, accuracy, reliability, completeness or timeliness of contents on the Site. ... TIVO MAKES NO REPRESENTATIONS OR WARRANTIES OF ANY KIND, EXPRESS OR IMPLIED, AS TO ... A USER'S RELIANCE ON OR USE OF ANY INFORMATION .... PROVIDED ON ... THE SITE, OR ANY FAILURE OF PERFORMANCE CAUSED BY OR ARISING OUT OF USE OF OR ACCESS TO ANY ... INFORMATION CONTAINED IN THE SITE."

I'd say that pretty-much covers their tail backwards and forwards.
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Old 10-06-2007, 07:18 PM   #405
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mikeyts
... No use speculating--we'll see how it comes out. I think that the existence and wording of TiVo's customer notice encouraging (and the fact that it's not accompanied by some BS "these are forward-looking statements which do not commit in any way" disclaimer).
I am also going to keep a positive attitude toward this whole situation

I do hope that we see the solution sooner rather than later, as many people need the device now.
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Old 10-06-2007, 08:13 PM   #406
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However, some folks need to make decisions now, and that'll be the case going forward, based on a best guess about how this will all work out.
We haven't been given enough data to make anything like an educated guess. You may as well flip a coin.
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Old 10-06-2007, 08:51 PM   #407
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There's also the possibility that the entire industry drags it's collective heals for 10 years like they did with CableCARDS, though I dont' think the FCC will let them get away with that again.
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Old 10-07-2007, 01:52 AM   #408
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TiVo and SDV

Quote:
Originally Posted by jrm01
The have explicitly said they are working with the cabelcos on a solution which will include a dongle.
Actually, that's not quite what the official website says, and in fact I hope it isn't the case, or rather I hope if it is the case it isn't the only case. While workable, a USB based dongle is the least flexible and least desirable solution for many devices, including the Series III / TiVoHD. If somone does develop a USB dongle, fine, but I hope they either make it both USB and Ethernet, or else they develop both a USB and Ethernet version of the dongle. Certainly the code revisions required for the TiVo are much, much simpler for an Ethernet version. It will also result in much simpler administration and far less plumbing, plus an Ethernet version of the dongle would allow the consumer to have one dongle serve every Ethernet based CableCard device in the house. A USB Dongle will require a separate dongle be purchased for every device. An Ethernet based dongle capability would even make it possible to eliminate the dongle altogether as long as the user has Internet service with their CATV provider, if the engineering is done correctly.
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Old 10-07-2007, 02:09 AM   #409
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Fud

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Originally Posted by bicker
However, some folks need to make decisions now, and that'll be the case going forward, based on a best guess about how this will all work out.
Yes, and what's worse, the uncertainty is not good for the consumer in general or the prospective TiVo owner in particular. Not only that, but while in some cases an air of uncertainty can readily be exploited, most often by the entrenched interest, in this particular case I don't see that the resulting FUD is really benefitting anyone very much. It may be renting out more CATV leased DVRs, but I'm not sure that isn't offset by those who are using it as a decision point to go with some other provider (AT&T, FIOS, Satellite, alternate CATV provider, etc). This I think especially since some CATV providers have made their DVR leases a near loss-leader to encourage retention and greater market penetration. In short, if the situation is at all deliberate on their part, it may have backfired.

On the other hand, I don't think the situation is as much a result of Machiavellian conspiracies as of downright short-sightedness and pig-headedness. Add a little greed and a healthy dose of parochial attitudes and you get... well... what we've got.
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Old 10-07-2007, 06:29 AM   #410
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We haven't been given enough data to make anything like an educated guess. You may as well flip a coin.
One doesn't necessarily follow from the other. Generally, if you feel you haven't been given enough data to make an informed decision, then the best decision is typically believed to be the least invasive decision, i.e., in the case of TiVo, don't purchase it.
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Old 10-07-2007, 06:30 AM   #411
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I dont' think the FCC will let them get away with that again.
I haven't seen any indication that anything has changed that would lead me to believe that the FCC will act any differently in the future than they have in the past. If anything, the fact that they "let them get away" with things before is foundation for projecting that they will "let them get away" with things again.
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Old 10-07-2007, 06:34 AM   #412
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On the other hand, I don't think the situation is as much a result of Machiavellian conspiracies as of downright short-sightedness and pig-headedness. Add a little greed and a healthy dose of parochial attitudes and you get... well... what we've got.
It may be fun to project such aspersions on the various parties, here, but the reality, I believe, is much less nefarious. Each company is doing what it should: Operating its business in accordance with the laws, in the best interests of its owners, as per their obligations. That normal-and-reasonable manner of conduct need not necessarily result in sweetness-and-light for everyone. Business is a naturally competitive, and often tumultuous environment, and it should be. Just because someone doesn't experience a smooth road doesn't mean that anyone else has wronged them.
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Old 10-07-2007, 01:39 PM   #413
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Originally Posted by lrhorer
Actually, that's not quite what the official website says, and in fact I hope it isn't the case, or rather I hope if it is the case it isn't the only case. While workable, a USB based dongle is the least flexible and least desirable solution for many devices, including the Series III / TiVoHD. If somone does develop a USB dongle, fine, but I hope they either make it both USB and Ethernet, or else they develop both a USB and Ethernet version of the dongle. Certainly the code revisions required for the TiVo are much, much simpler for an Ethernet version. It will also result in much simpler administration and far less plumbing, plus an Ethernet version of the dongle would allow the consumer to have one dongle serve every Ethernet based CableCard device in the house. A USB Dongle will require a separate dongle be purchased for every device. An Ethernet based dongle capability would even make it possible to eliminate the dongle altogether as long as the user has Internet service with their CATV provider, if the engineering is done correctly.
TiVo's announcement says:
Quote:
Great progress has been made and the National Cable & Telecommunications Association (NCTA) revealed the solution in a filing with the FCC.
"The" (not "one possible") solution revealed on PDF page 36 of the FCC filing is a USB-2 based "tuning resolver":
Quote:
In order to address this issue, the cable industry has worked with CE companies such as TiVo to arrive at a solution that can provide two-way SDV channels to one-way digital cable products through an external device attachment to the UDCP.

Under this approach arrived at through private discussions outside of regulatory compulsion a small Tuning Resolver adapter could be made available to the UDCP consumer. With only firmware modifications to new UDCP products, and a USB 2.0 connection, properly equipped UDCPs could receive programming offered on SDV channels. Many currently deployed UDCPs, including TiVo DVRs, have one or more USB 2.0 connectors and might even be upgradeable with firmware for SDV
I can see ways in which they could use Ethernet to solve this problem--they could run a server in the headend with which a running device could register over the internet for each of the unidirectional CableCARDs it hosted. It could then send messages requesting mappings for services that it wanted to tune and telling it when it was no longer actively using those services. That solution wouldn't require a "dongle" at all, just authorization of your network capable device with the cable headend as a valid user of the server. How do you envision an "Ethernet dongle" working?
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Old 10-07-2007, 01:48 PM   #414
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Originally Posted by lrhorer
An Ethernet based dongle capability would even make it possible to eliminate the dongle altogether as long as the user has Internet service with their CATV provider, if the engineering is done correctly.
I was hoping that you weren't suggesting a design that required that one be getting Internet service through the cable company, but... . For a LOT of us, DSL is a more economical choice (not to mention the usual issue about sharing the bandwidth on your node).
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Old 10-07-2007, 06:38 PM   #415
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Originally Posted by lrhorer
Actually, that's not quite what the official website says, and in fact I hope it isn't the case, or rather I hope if it is the case it isn't the only case. While workable, a USB based dongle is the least flexible and least desirable solution for many devices, including the Series III / TiVoHD. If somone does develop a USB dongle, fine, but I hope they either make it both USB and Ethernet, or else they develop both a USB and Ethernet version of the dongle. Certainly the code revisions required for the TiVo are much, much simpler for an Ethernet version. It will also result in much simpler administration and far less plumbing, plus an Ethernet version of the dongle would allow the consumer to have one dongle serve every Ethernet based CableCard device in the house. A USB Dongle will require a separate dongle be purchased for every device. An Ethernet based dongle capability would even make it possible to eliminate the dongle altogether as long as the user has Internet service with their CATV provider, if the engineering is done correctly.
I probably read too much into this statement from Tivo:

Quote:
The agreed-upon solution is a small external adapter, called a tuning resolver, which will attach to the back of the CableCARD device and enable two-way communication with the cable headend so that switched digital channels can be received by TiVo products.
I assumed that since it was being referred to as a "tuning resolver" that it would be a USB solution and that if it were an Ethernet solution it would be something like a "channel requestor".
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Old 10-07-2007, 07:29 PM   #416
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Originally Posted by jrm01
I probably read too much into this statement from Tivo:



I assumed that since it was being referred to as a "tuning resolver" that it would be a USB solution and that if it were an Ethernet solution it would be something like a "channel requestor".
It can't be an ethernet device because there is only one ethernet port and, at least in my case, it's already being used to connect to my local network. Any "tuning resolver" would have to connect to a QAM or DOCSIS network. There's no way to connect 2 physically different networks to one ethernet port.

Since there are 2 USB ports, another device could be plugged in even if one USB port was in use.
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Old 10-07-2007, 08:44 PM   #417
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jrm01
I probably read too much into this statement from Tivo:

I assumed that since it was being referred to as a "tuning resolver" that it would be a USB solution and that if it were an Ethernet solution it would be something like a "channel requestor".
If it were an ethernet solution it'd be something like "software". It's a USB dongle with a QAM transmitter and maybe a receiver as well.
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Old 10-07-2007, 08:49 PM   #418
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Anyone know if TWC Canyon Country, CA just went SDV? I Just came home had a TiVo message that a lineup change had occured that TBSHD had been "added" and now a whole block of channels aren't working....
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Old 10-07-2007, 08:58 PM   #419
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Buy a clue

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Originally Posted by morac
It can't be an ethernet device because there is only one ethernet port and, at least in my case, it's already being used to connect to my local network.
I must admit it was really hard for me to resist blasting this response with flames. Please look up the phrase "layered network model", and then the terms "network bridging" and "network routing".

Quote:
Originally Posted by morac
Any "tuning resolver" would have to connect to a QAM or DOCSIS network. There's no way to connect 2 physically different networks to one ethernet port.
You really have a lot to learn about networking, I'm afraid. Not only is it false there is "no way" to connect 2 physically divergent Layer II or Layer III networks to a Layer II or Layer III Ethernet network, there are in fact a very large number of ways, generally called translation bridging (Layer II) and routing (Layer III). Secondly, a single Ethernet interface can very easily host large numbers of networks - dozens or even hundreds in fact. They don't even have to be compatible networks. A single interface can easily handle TCP/IP, NetBEUI, IPX, and OSI networks simultaneously. Thirdly, it is also untrue the resolver must connect to a QAM or DOCSIS network, although if the user has his internet access provided by the CATV company, it's virtually certain it would transverse the DOCSIS network at some point, that point being the most logical place to insert the request packet into the CATV provider's network. All that is required is the request packet reach the video server farm at the CATV headend and that the ARP tables of the switches which serve the path to the user's node be updated with the TiVo's network address and the IP address of the CableCard. Yes, the easiest way to handle this is over the CATV provider's DOCSIS network, but it isn't the only way. What's more, providing a resolver which provides a bridge to the DOCSIS network from the consumer's LAN is not difficult at all. Indeed, it is precisely what the DOCSIS modem sitting in my computer room is doing right now: providing access to the CATV company's DOCSIS network for my broadband Internet connection via Layer III routing. That includes all three of my TiVos. That's exactly what the dongle will do, as well, whether it is a USB or Ethernet device, although it will probably also act as a VPN endpoint.

Quote:
Originally Posted by morac
Since there are 2 USB ports, another device could be plugged in even if one USB port was in use.
What's your point? While you are looking up the other terms, I suggest you also look uo the term "layyer 2 network switch". I have nearly 20 devices - including 2 other TiVos - "plugged in" to each of my TiVo's ethernet ports. Indeed, if I were to shut down the firewall on my cable gateway, there would be essentially hundreds of millions of devices plugged in to the Ethernet ports of my 3 TiVos, including every single router owned by my CATV provider. Whether the dongle is USB based or Ethernet based, it will be providing exactly the same function at the network layer. The difference is an Ethernet based dongle requires far less specialized code in the TiVo, only 1 dongle is required for every device (TiVo or otherwise) in the house, and the function of the dongle could quite readily be taken over by the DOCSIS modem most Series III TiVo owners already have in their house, or possibly even by a DSL modem, for those of us who buy our Internet access from someone other than the Cable company. The latter will require a bit more in the way of indulgence on the part of the CATV company, but what the heck, if DSL subscribers have to have the dongle while CATV broadband customers don't, c'est la vie.

Oh, by the way, the two USB ports on your TiVo are not completely independent. They represent two ports on a USB hub, and the only difference between two USB ports and multiple Ethernet ports is the hub / switch is internal for the USB ports and external for the Ethernet ports. Well, that and the vast advantages offered by switching over hubbing, and the fact the required network protocols for the Ethernet port are already in place in the OS, and very little applications code will need to be written for an Ethernet dongle and ...

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Old 10-07-2007, 10:36 PM   #420
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bicker
It may be fun to project such aspersions on the various parties, here, but the reality, I believe, is much less nefarious.
Please re-read my post. I specifically stated I believed the situation is NOT a result of coordinated nefarious intents, or in fact of any nefarious intent.

Quote:
Originally Posted by bicker
Each company is doing what it should: Operating its business in accordance with the laws, in the best interests of its owners, as per their obligations.
No, they are operating in accordance with what they THINK is in the best interest of the profiting parties, not what IS the best interest of the company. Said thinking is often tempered by greed, often to the detriment of the cpmapny (which is more than just the investors). No offense, but you seem to have a hard time distinguishing between intent and the ability to implement that intent. Just because an executive intends to save his company millions of dollars by some decision does not mean he will, and while greed is not necessarily the difference between the two, it certainly can be and historically has been on many occasions. Not only that, but many businessmen don't care what is in the best interest of the business, only what they can get out of it today. I can give you hundreds of examples, but I'll give four:

1. The motion picture companies virtually had simultaneous coronaries when VCRs became widely available. Many of them refused to release titles at all, or agreed to do so only long, long after the movie was out of the theaters and had been broadcast on TV. Greed suggests preventing the user from renting or purchasing the movie will cause him to spend more money at the theater. The truth is ready access to video rentals and purchases increase the number of theater goers, and now many films make far more on rentals and DVD purchases than in theaters, yet theaters are making more money than ever and the movies studios are consequently making more money, as well. How was their obtuse conservativism motivated by greed good for the companies and their investors?

2. Sony believed by refusing to release their Betamax patents for others to manufacture they could keep all the money made in the VCR and tape market to themselves. When was the last time you saw a betamax tape? How was this decision clearly motivated by greed rather than good business sense good for the company and its investors?

3. A few years ago, one of our sales representatives came to me outraged because we did not have any available bandwidth going into one of the major long distance providers. She demanded to know why. The reason was we had filled up the systems going to the carrier. She then demanded we build another system into the carrier. I explained a new system would cost $200,000, and the revenue we had put on the old system took almost 10 years to fill with 1/4 the bandwidth. The circuit she was so incensed she could not sell would garner $75 a month. I told her we could not afford to spend that sort of cash on a system which was unlikely to pay for itself in 10 years, let alone in 3 (which is our standard business model). I asked her if she would agree to cover the difference if the system did not make money inside of 3 years. She went away, but stamped her feet and threw a temper tantrum to our local VP and demanded we build the system. Having placed all sorts of dollar signs in the VP's eyes, she demanded we build the system. Ten years later, the revenue on the system has paid for about $15,000 of the $200,000 build. The sales rep doesn't care, though, because she got her commission and doesn't have to pay for the $185,000 loss. She could not then and does not now care that she cost the company a small fortune. The VP is less sanguine, but what can she do? She was hoist upon her own petard. How was this decision clearly motivated by greed rather than good business sense good for the company?

4. At the onset of the telecom bust, the CEO of our company met with a number of other CEOs and CFOs from our business sector. At the timne, all the companies including ours were beginning to feel the pinch caused by the market overindulgences (more greed, by the way) in the high tech sector in general and the telecom world in particular. She was shocked. Virtually every one of them had business which could be saved by cutting their workforce 15 - 20%, consolidating their debt, and controlling their expenditures over the next 24 - 36 months. The solution favored by every single one of them, however, was to deliberately bankrupt their companies and run with the cash. The end result? Every single one of those companies went bankrupt within the next 3 years, the employees all lost their jobs, and the investors were largely left holding the bag. How was this decision clearly motivated by greed rather than good business sense good for the companies and their investors?

Quote:
Originally Posted by bicker
That normal-and-reasonable manner of conduct need not necessarily result in sweetness-and-light for everyone. Business is a naturally competitive, and often tumultuous environment, and it should be. Just because someone doesn't experience a smooth road doesn't mean that anyone else has wronged them.
Which has nothing to do with my statements. The fact monkeys can be captured by placing food into a small hole where once they have grasped the food they are unable to withdraw their hand in no way comments upon the highly competitive world in which they live. They are an extremely successful genus, but they can be individually undone by their greed. The same is true of corporate executives. Many care virtually nothing for the company for which they work, and in many cases they will deliberately choose a detrimental course for the company if it yields greater short term gains for them personally. In this case, however, I as I already said, I think it is more a matter of being blinded by greed than being directly motivated by it. To put it briefly, many of the execs are simply unable to see the real advantages to be gained by cooperating in this situation.

Last edited by lrhorer : 10-07-2007 at 10:42 PM.
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