TiVo Community
TiVo Community
TiVo Community
Go Back   TiVo Community > Main TiVo Forums > TiVo Series3 HDTV DVRs
TiVo Community
Reply
Forum Jump
 
Thread Tools
Old 08-30-2007, 04:11 PM   #271
txagfan
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Texas
Posts: 17
Quote:
Originally Posted by wbertram
Put some realistic numbers for x, y, and z in the appropriate formulas, and let us see what the probability is that I will not be able to receive a random channel selection when I want to. Try it with the appropriate numbers for, say, TWC in Austin.

Poll the SDV users in Austin and see how often they are getting the "Channel Not Available" screen.
The only time I have seen that screen is when a channel is down due to a service outage. Otherwise, I have never seen that screen.
txagfan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-30-2007, 04:11 PM   #272
ChrisFix
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Chapel Hill, NC
Posts: 69
Quote:
Originally Posted by ah30k
Statistical analysis shows that if you offer an x channel pool for y offerings with a node size of z you will be able to satisfy all of the users 99.9% of the time. The x can be much less than y. You can choose not to believe it if you want.
Most users would never notice the difference and it would rarely happen anyway. Once again, you can choose to disagree if you want.
This is exactly how the public telephone system works...there are many less channels for completing calls than there are subscribers - depending on telco, and where in the network you are, they concentrate up to 5:1 (one voice channel for 5 subscribers) and it works 99.9% of the time for 100% of subscribers.
ChrisFix is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-30-2007, 04:13 PM   #273
ah30k
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 2,206
Quote:
Originally Posted by wbertram
Put some realistic numbers for x, y, and z in the appropriate formulas, and let us see what the probability is that I will not be able to receive a random channel selection when I want to. Try it with the appropriate numbers for, say, TWC in Austin.
Sorry, no can do. Not public data.

Quote:
Originally Posted by wbertram
Poll the SDV users in Austin and see how often they are getting the "Channel Not Available" screen.
Why are you telling me to go do something. You're welcome to if you wish.
ah30k is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-30-2007, 04:13 PM   #274
wbertram
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jun 2002
Posts: 35
Quote:
Originally Posted by ah30k
The timeout for the response is configurable and will surely be tuned to allow people to take a piss. Again, this message will only pop up if you have done nothing with the STB for a long period of time. So if you are in the corner case of someone who has done 'nothing' with your remote for a long time, and you are still watching a show, and you get up for a beer at just the right time and you take a very long time to get back THEN your worry might be valid.
And what about my kids who are watching a children's show, and don't understand the message on the screen? "Daddy, Daddy, my show went off and won't come back! sob, sob, sob".
wbertram is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-30-2007, 04:15 PM   #275
LoREvanescence
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Posts: 2,315
Quote:
Originally Posted by ah30k
The timeout for the response is configurable and will surely be tuned to allow people to take a piss. Again, this message will only pop up if you have done nothing with the STB for a long period of time. So if you are in the corner case of someone who has done 'nothing' with your remote for a long time, and you are still watching a show, and you get up for a beer at just the right time and you take a very long time to get back THEN your worry might be valid.

What would happen though, if you have a dvr stb forsay, and are not home while it's recording. If it were to get polled while recording event could the station get pulled? Just a interesting thought.
LoREvanescence is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 08-30-2007, 04:21 PM   #276
ah30k
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 2,206
Quote:
Originally Posted by wbertram
And what about my kids who are watching a children's show, and don't understand the message on the screen? "Daddy, Daddy, my show went off and won't come back! sob, sob, sob".
You are moving into the realm of irrational argumenting now. For those looking to argue against it, nothing will convince you. I already said 1) it should not even be statistically needed 2) it will only go to STBs with long periods of inactivity. If you kids fall into both then tough luck. **** happens.
ah30k is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-30-2007, 04:23 PM   #277
ah30k
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 2,206
Quote:
Originally Posted by LoREvanescence
What would happen though, if you have a dvr stb forsay, and are not home while it's recording. If it were to get polled while recording event could the station get pulled? Just a interesting thought.
Once again, the engineers are working many use-cases. STBs with recordings are assumed to be using the channel and will not be polled.
ah30k is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-30-2007, 04:25 PM   #278
wbertram
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jun 2002
Posts: 35
Quote:
Originally Posted by ah30k
Statistical analysis shows that if you offer an x channel pool for y offerings with a node size of z you will be able to satisfy all of the users 99.9% of the time. The x can be much less than y. You can choose not to believe it if you want.
Most users would never notice the difference and it would rarely happen anyway. Once again, you can choose to disagree if you want.
The only way you can guarantee 99.9% availability is if the channel pool, x, is equal to, or slightly less than, the lesser of the number of offerings, y, or the node size, z. Since y is most likely less than z, this means that x must be equal to, or slightly less than y. In other words, the size of the channel pool must be very close to the number of offerings. So what has the expense of the SDV equipment bought you?
wbertram is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-30-2007, 04:28 PM   #279
ah30k
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 2,206
Quote:
Originally Posted by wbertram
The only way you can guarantee 99.9% availability is if the channel pool, x, is equal to, or slightly less than, the lesser of the number of offerings, y, or the node size, z. Since y is most likely less than z, this means that x must be equal to, or slightly less than y. In other words, the size of the channel pool must be very close to the number of offerings. So what has the expense of the SDV equipment bought you?
Sorry, can't argue with you any more on this. You are right. All of the cable operators are stupid and pissing millions away on this with no payback.
ah30k is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-30-2007, 04:35 PM   #280
vman41
Omega Consumer
 
vman41's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2002
Posts: 8,266
Quote:
Originally Posted by ah30k
Once again, the engineers are working many use-cases. STBs with recordings are assumed to be using the channel and will not be polled.
The smarter thing to do would make the protocol that requests the channel include the expected time on that channel. Alternatively, an STB making a recording could just renew the channel request every 15 minutes.
vman41 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-30-2007, 04:36 PM   #281
vman41
Omega Consumer
 
vman41's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2002
Posts: 8,266
Quote:
Originally Posted by ah30k
You are right. All of the cable operators are stupid and pissing millions away on this with no payback.
Welcome to America.
vman41 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-30-2007, 04:49 PM   #282
ah30k
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 2,206
Quote:
Originally Posted by vman41
The smarter thing to do would make the protocol that requests the channel include the expected time on that channel. Alternatively, an STB making a recording could just renew the channel request every 15 minutes.
I should caveat my responses... Although I am generally aware of the SDV design, exact details may be slightly different. The exact implementation of the protocols and sequence diagrams for switching and the DVR recording are a good example of specifics which I may be wrong on.
ah30k is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-30-2007, 05:13 PM   #283
LoREvanescence
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Posts: 2,315
Quote:
Originally Posted by wbertram
The only way you can guarantee 99.9% availability is if the channel pool, x, is equal to, or slightly less than, the lesser of the number of offerings, y, or the node size, z. Since y is most likely less than z, this means that x must be equal to, or slightly less than y. In other words, the size of the channel pool must be very close to the number of offerings. So what has the expense of the SDV equipment bought you?

Well to me at least. This all makes since when there comes a point where bandwidth could start becoming an issue. Sadly, I wish it wasn't the direction things were going or that tivo supports it now.

What is the latest with turning off analog cable. In systems where they turn it off is this an alternative to sdv or will they still use sdv after turning off analog cable.

From reading through the avsforum today it seams that Comcast have already pulled the plug for analog cable in Chicago leaving only local access channels as analog. They are making this move becuase the majority of homes in the city already have digital cable, for those who don't, comcast is providing a free STB as a solution. It seams that they are now turnign off analog channels in the suburbs over the next few months.


Is this a likely trend that we will see in more cities in the near future to a lot for more space for digital content? What is the latest information as to what the cable industry is doing in terms of analog cable over the next few years.
LoREvanescence is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 08-30-2007, 05:17 PM   #284
ah30k
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 2,206
Quote:
Originally Posted by LoREvanescence
What is the latest with turning off analog cable. In systems where they turn it off is this an alternative to sdv or will they still use sdv after turning off analog cable.

From reading through the avsforum today it seams that Comcast have already pulled the plug for analog cable in Chicago leaving only local access channels as analog.
And people started screaming that their S2DTs were now rendered merely single-tuners and they needed STBs for every TV. You are always going to piss someone off. It is just a matter of who.
ah30k is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-30-2007, 05:33 PM   #285
HiDefGator
Registered User
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
Posts: 1,851
Turning off analog just delays when they deploy SDV. Eventually they will do both.
HiDefGator is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-30-2007, 05:33 PM   #286
jordanz
A is A
 
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: Monterey, CA
Posts: 53
Why don't they go to a packet-switched type of protocol (ala TCP/IP)? This SDV thing seems like a big hack to me.
__________________

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
jordanz is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-30-2007, 05:43 PM   #287
ah30k
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 2,206
Quote:
Originally Posted by jordanz
Why don't they go to a packet-switched type of protocol (ala TCP/IP)? This SDV thing seems like a big hack to me.
Incremental changes to the headend and STB base over time as opposed to a massive switch-out of the entire infrastructure. Cable company investors would not tolerate the kind of cost impacts necessary to switch the underlying tech.
ah30k is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-30-2007, 05:46 PM   #288
LoREvanescence
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Posts: 2,315
Quote:
Originally Posted by ah30k
And people started screaming that their S2DTs were now rendered merely single-tuners and they needed STBs for every TV. You are always going to piss someone off. It is just a matter of who.

Well, it's true, there is always someone thats going to be pissed off. Such is the life of adapting new technology to replace a older one. I just wish this one 1 way 2 way ocap thing could have been settled by now, not changing every couple of months leaving third party devices out of the circle.
LoREvanescence is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 08-30-2007, 05:51 PM   #289
jordanz
A is A
 
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: Monterey, CA
Posts: 53
Quote:
Originally Posted by ah30k
Incremental changes to the headend and STB base over time as opposed to a massive switch-out of the entire infrastructure. Cable company investors would not tolerate the kind of cost impacts necessary to switch the underlying tech.
I see. This does, however, seem like an interim solution. They're banking on each SDV "node" only needing a subset of the total available channels. At some point in the future they'll need to look at a better technology.
__________________

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
jordanz is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-30-2007, 06:25 PM   #290
ah30k
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 2,206
Quote:
Originally Posted by LoREvanescence
... I just wish this one 1 way 2 way ocap thing could have been settled by now, not changing every couple of months leaving third party devices out of the circle.
You know, that would have been the one solution that would seem to leave virtually no one pissed off except the cable companies.
ah30k is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-30-2007, 06:36 PM   #291
MickeS
Registered User
 
MickeS's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: AZ
Posts: 25,883
Quote:
Originally Posted by ah30k
Sorry, can't argue with you any more on this. You are right. All of the cable operators are stupid and pissing millions away on this with no payback.
Are you saying no business every makes costly mistakes?

I guess I just don't see the benefit of this in the long run, vs going all digital and building out capacity. I see the near-term benefits. I guess the costs are small enough that they feel they are OK.
MickeS is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-30-2007, 08:49 PM   #292
jrm01
Registered User
 
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: Pittsburgh
Posts: 2,619
Quote:
Originally Posted by ah30k
Any channel with inactivity for a period of time is able to be polled to see if the watcher is still there. "Please hit the enter button if you still want this channel". If no response is received the channel will be reclaimed and the STB will be sent to a safe channel.
Is my dongle going to send back the proper response if Tivo is recording a SDV channel and I'm not home?
__________________
Comcast, Cox, TW, Charter and BHN are cabal companies.
(That is not a spelling error. Check the definition.
)
jrm01 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-30-2007, 11:00 PM   #293
ah30k
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 2,206
Quote:
Originally Posted by jrm01
Is my dongle going to send back the proper response if Tivo is recording a SDV channel and I'm not home?
Hence why I am not betting on the magic dongle any time soon.
ah30k is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-31-2007, 12:19 AM   #294
DCIFRTHS
I dumped SDV / cable
 
DCIFRTHS's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2000
Location: New York
Posts: 2,075
Quote:
Originally Posted by jrm01
Is my dongle going to send back the proper response if Tivo is recording a SDV channel and I'm not home?
Reading your post, it sounds like you have one already, so maybe you should tell us

If the dongle didn't provide this basic functionality, then it wouldn't be a solution for TiVo. I doubt that TiVo would deploy the dongle if it didn't support TiVo's most basic functions.
DCIFRTHS is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-31-2007, 05:19 AM   #295
VinceA
Registered User
 
VinceA's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2002
Location: Bayonne, NJ
Posts: 1,086
The 'dongle' seems to be almost entirely for TiVo (and any future other CableCard DVRs). Are there any CableCard TVs that have the required USB port that the dongle would need?
VinceA is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-31-2007, 10:18 AM   #296
BobCamp1
Registered User
 
Join Date: May 2002
Posts: 986
Quote:
Originally Posted by wbertram
Re the often made statement "SDV makes more channels available."

I fail to see the logic here.
Well, this is how your cell phone service has worked. Voice channels are only dedicated to your phone one a call is established. Once the call is completed, the channel is released back into the pool of available channels. The channels that are used to handshake between your phone and the tower are much smaller in nature, so the system can support many more of those channels than voice channels. The same technology is used for landline phones too.

Yes, if everybody who owned a phone tried to call at the exact same time, the system gets congested. But unless a disaster occurs (9/11, hurricanes, etc.), no more than x% of people are using the service at any one time. In the past two years, the cable company has been busy watching your viewing habits and conducting trials in some markets to determine how many channels they can switch to SDV. If they implement it correctly, you won't notice a thing. Unless you're using an S3.

The benefit is that it is a quick way to boost capacity without rewiring everyone's house to bring fiber directly to the house. They need a solution ASAP. I have FIOS -- my uplink speed is probably faster than your downlink speed. And it's the same price as your service. DirecTV will release a bunch of HD channels any day now. Cable is just trying to keep up.
BobCamp1 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-31-2007, 06:38 PM   #297
wbertram
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jun 2002
Posts: 35
Quote:
Originally Posted by BobCamp1
Well, ...SNIP

Yes, if everybody who owned a phone tried to call at the exact same time, the system gets congested. ...SNIP.
Of course, that is exactly how the SDV system works! Everybody who owns a TV sits down at 8:00PM and tries to tune to their favorite channel. And, the system gets congested, just like the phone system gets congested on Mother's Day, or after a catastrophe like 9/11.

SDV only "increases capacity" when relatively few people are viewing TV.
wbertram is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-31-2007, 08:07 PM   #298
ah30k
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 2,206
Quote:
Originally Posted by wbertram
Of course, that is exactly how the SDV system works! Everybody who owns a TV sits down at 8:00PM and tries to tune to their favorite channel. And, the system gets congested, just like the phone system gets congested on Mother's Day, or after a catastrophe like 9/11.

SDV only "increases capacity" when relatively few people are viewing TV.
In practice, not everyone sits down to watch every channel on the map at 8:00. Most people tune to x channels at any given time where x is much smaller than y offered. SDV will and is working just fine in the areas where it is deployed without running out of slots. I don't know what else to tell you to make you feel any different. SDV actually works better during peak times because there is more concentration on fewer channels.

When was the last time you could not reach you mother on Mothers Day on the first attempt?
ah30k is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-31-2007, 08:12 PM   #299
philipl411
Registered User
 
Join Date: May 2007
Posts: 7
Quote:
Originally Posted by bicker
That really points out the no-win situation that a la carte is, especially if it is to be driven by consumers wanting it. They'll go from complaining about "having to pay for channels they don't watch" to complaining about how all the channels now cost $3-$4 each.

Maybe so, but if your pricing is correct, my bill would go down by 2/3. I don't watch any HBO types, no sports (I am told that ESPN type channels would cost $70+) I long for the "a la carte" system
philipl411 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-31-2007, 08:13 PM   #300
HiDefGator
Registered User
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
Posts: 1,851
Quote:
Originally Posted by wbertram
Of course, that is exactly how the SDV system works! Everybody who owns a TV sits down at 8:00PM and tries to tune to their favorite channel.
Fortunately a huge majority of people watch the same 6 or 7 channels at 8:00 when they sit down making SDV possible.
HiDefGator is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply
Forum Jump




Thread Tools


Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Advertisements

TiVo Community
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.6.8
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
vBulletin Skins by: Relivo Media

(C) 2013 Magenium Solutions - All Rights Reserved. No information may be posted elsewhere without written permission.
TiVoŽ is a registered trademark of TiVo Inc. This site is not owned or operated by TiVo Inc.
All times are GMT -5. The time now is 12:32 PM.
OUR NETWORK: MyOpenRouter | TechLore | SansaCommunity | RoboCommunity | MediaSmart Home | Explore3DTV | Dijit Community | DVR Playground |