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Old 07-25-2007, 02:06 PM   #151
rainwater
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dolfer
no eSATA (at least currently) and no fancy remote
The TiVo HD does have a eSATA port so that information is false. While its been reported the same hack from the S3 software doesn't work to enable it, you can assume that will change in a future software update.
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Old 07-25-2007, 02:19 PM   #152
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Try your local Circuit City B&M. Mine had at least 2 instock today. They're not out on the shelf yet but they showed up in the inventory check online. This is really useful if you have a 40 off 199 like I did (from USPS changing address packet).
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Old 07-25-2007, 03:13 PM   #153
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Try your local Circuit City B&M. Mine had at least 2 instock today. They're not out on the shelf yet but they showed up in the inventory check online. This is really useful if you have a 40 off 199 like I did (from USPS changing address packet).
A couple of Circuit City stores in the Minneapolis area are showing in store stock (you can order online and pick it up in store). Quite nice that they are actually in store the same week as the announcement. Kudos to Tivo.
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Old 07-25-2007, 04:01 PM   #154
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Question Does ATSC = Digital = HD?

I am currently receiving over the air HD programming. Say my local digital NBC analog channel is 3. Now my Digital signal is 3.1 and this is _sometimes_ HD and sometimes not.

If my TiVo HD is recording on channel 3.1 and it is an HD program, obviously it would fall into the "20 hours of HD" bucket.

However if my TiVo HD is recording on channel 3.1 and it is not an HD program, does it fall into the 20 hour bucket or is it considered SD?

Another way of asking the same question: Are non-HD programs received over the digital signal considered SD or HD?
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Old 07-25-2007, 04:12 PM   #155
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If I want to get 2 new Tivo HD boxes will my best monthly cost be a 3-year prepaid plan at $299 and a 3-year month-to-month at $6.95 for MSD? Will it make a difference if I buy either the boxes or the service from Tivo direct or from a retailer?

I have a lifetime subscription to a DirecTV box with Tivo, which I guess is worthless to the Tivo HD, correct? Since I'm not using that box anymore is my best bet to eBay it with the lifetime sub?

Edit: For extra credit... Does anyone know what Comcast (Seattle area) will charge me for the CableCards? According to their website it looks like the first card in each box is free, and the second (if I can't get an M-card) would be up to $1.91/month... plus I'd pay ($5.10 ??) for the "additional outlet". Does that look right? Is there anyway to get around the "additional outlet" fee if both boxes are plugged into the same outlet via a splitter?

Thanks,
Alan

Last edited by acheslow : 07-25-2007 at 04:32 PM.
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Old 07-25-2007, 04:36 PM   #156
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gimpyestrada
I am currently receiving over the air HD programming. Say my local digital NBC analog channel is 3. Now my Digital signal is 3.1 and this is _sometimes_ HD and sometimes not.

If my TiVo HD is recording on channel 3.1 and it is an HD program, obviously it would fall into the "20 hours of HD" bucket.

However if my TiVo HD is recording on channel 3.1 and it is not an HD program, does it fall into the 20 hour bucket or is it considered SD?

Another way of asking the same question: Are non-HD programs received over the digital signal considered SD or HD?
I've wondered this myself when recording on my DVR from Charter. Let's say I record Surivovor on the "HD" station, but it's an SD program, is it taking up as much room as normal HD shows?
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Old 07-25-2007, 04:37 PM   #157
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gimpyestrada
I am currently receiving over the air HD programming. Say my local digital NBC analog channel is 3. Now my Digital signal is 3.1 and this is _sometimes_ HD and sometimes not.

If my TiVo HD is recording on channel 3.1 and it is an HD program, obviously it would fall into the "20 hours of HD" bucket.

However if my TiVo HD is recording on channel 3.1 and it is not an HD program, does it fall into the 20 hour bucket or is it considered SD?

Another way of asking the same question: Are non-HD programs received over the digital signal considered SD or HD?
I think the only difference is that a digital HD show takes up more space than a digital SD show. The "20 hours of HD bucket" is not something that's separate from the "180 hours of analog recording" - that's just two measures of the total hard drive space.

So yes, I'm pretty sure the non-HD recordings on channel 3.1 will take up less space than an HD recording on the same channel.
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Old 07-25-2007, 04:41 PM   #158
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Originally Posted by MickeS
So yes, I'm pretty sure the non-HD recordings on channel 3.1 will take up less space than an HD recording on the same channel.
Not necessarily. It depends on how the TV station sends its. It could take up as much room, it could take up less room, it could take up more room, it could change during the day. The only way you know for sure is to record it and then look in the info screen for the file size.

Also its not a hard "20 hours", that depends on how the TV station sends the signal. It could be a lot more than 20 hours, I don't think it can be less than that.
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Old 07-25-2007, 04:41 PM   #159
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That is an interesting question because, in theory, OTA digital SD is upconverted to 720p or 1080i. So, in theory, it should take up more space than an analog station showing the same content... anyone know if this is right?

An HD datastream will definitely take significantly more space on the drive, either way.
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Old 07-25-2007, 04:44 PM   #160
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Originally Posted by aus1ander
That is an interesting question because, in theory, OTA digital SD is upconverted to 720p or 1080i. So, in theory, it should take up more space than an analog station showing the same content... anyone know if this is right?

An HD datastream will definitely take significantly more space on the drive, either way.
Upconverted SD takes about the same space as high-definition. Depending on the station's encoder, actual HD on a 1080i channel might consume 16Mbps and upconverted SD might consume 12Mbps. Neither is comparable to the typical 528x480 SD @ 3-4Mbps.

You should take the 20 hours of HD to mean 20 hours of recording from high-definition channels, which may or may not be showing actual HD at a given time.
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Old 07-25-2007, 06:09 PM   #161
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Originally Posted by MickeS
Does "dropped support" mean that no other adapters work with the HD? They never officially "supported" any other adapters, did they?
It doesn't mean they won't work, it just means you are totally on your own getting one to work, and it is not their fault it won't.
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Old 07-25-2007, 07:08 PM   #162
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upgrade HD tivo or get series 3?

What would be better, cost efficient vs time, to upgrade new tivo hd hard disc size or just get a series 3 and fork out more bucks?
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Old 07-25-2007, 07:46 PM   #163
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If the station is sending its signal in 1080i or 720p, it will take up the full space of a 1080i or 720p signal, even if the actual content is upconverted 480i. Most of the networks send their main digital channel in the HD resolution 24/7, regardless of the quality of the source of a given program. So yeah, an hour off the CBS HD channel recording Dr. Phil in SD is going to take up as much space as an hour off the CBS HD channel recording CSI: Miami in HD. So, it behooves you to set your SPs for shows that aren't in HD on the SD channel, not the HD channel.

It's going to take up about 8.5 GB per hour (assuming a gigabyte is 1024 megabytes, not 1000 megabytes). An HD channel is 19.38 Mbps (though, it may be less if they are using some bandwidth for secondary streams) = 2.4225 MBps = 145.35 MB per minute = 8721 MB per hour = 8.51 GB per hour.

The one exception from that general practice of using the same resolution 24/7 is PBS. Many PBS affiliates actually change the resolution from 1080i in primetime and on weekends to 480i during the weekday and late night. They do this to activate an additional multi-stream, which goes off the air when the main channel is in HD. When you record something off the PBS ATSC channel at a time they're not broadcasting in HD, the disk space it takes up will be much smaller.
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Old 07-25-2007, 07:58 PM   #164
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Well, I said I was going to wait...HA! Like that's going to happen. I went to CC tonight and picked one up, I'm powering up right now and I'm going to start the setup process. I don't have the cabe cards yet but I have an antenna and I have some local HD channels that I can pick up (at least they do with my ATI HDTV Wonder card). I moved one of my old Tivo's service numbers over to the new Tivo which was pretty painless (I'm really glad I had a couple Tivo's on the old pricing plan, the new prices are harsh).

Edit: Why didn't anyone tell me that OTA HD looks so much better than what the Motorola HD box puts out? Picture looks fantastic! Although I have to go through and delete about 50 channels from the OTA antenna that I can't actually get. Overall impressions so far are that the picture looks great, no pixellation, menu's are a lot more responsive than my S2. So far, I'm impressed.
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Old 07-25-2007, 09:04 PM   #165
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Pardon my intrusion... I have become an avid reader of this forum since the release of the TiVo HD just a couple days ago and this thread is dealing w/ a question that I have always had concerning the recording of HD and SD content.

It stands to reason that if you are recording from a digital channel (say 5.1) where all the content is upconverted to 1080i that anything recorded off that channel (either SD originally or HD) is taking up the whole 8.5gb / hour. Afterall, that is how the signal is being received by the tuner.

However, in my area (as well as others), all the shows are simulcast in digital SD on say channel 5.2 where everything is sent at 480i on the digital sub-channel. Now I am not talking about NTSC/analog broadcasting, but rather the digital sub-channel of the same network.

So here's my assumptions and questions:

Assuming the above 1080i computation of ~8.5gb of disk space per hour then it stands to reason that 480i digital is going to be ~2-3gb per hour - being less than 1/4 the resolution.. (also assuming that digital signals are not reprocessed by the TiVo but stored to the drive as they are received). The compression settings only apply to NTSC/Analog signals and have no affect on an SD/HD digital signal.

Does TiVo HD (or Series 3) have TWO (2) ATSC tuners to tune OTA digital content or just one? I have seen this represented both ways and this is rather a make or break specification. Having a dual ATSC tuner DVR for OTA digital channels is the clincher that will make this new Tivo my next tech purchase. I cannot tune the analog signals as they are too weak (and no cable in the mountains), but my Sony ATSC tuner gets 20+ different digital channels OTA just fine and in perfect picture.

I have been eagerly waiting for TiVo to come out w/ an affordable HD DVR and now I just need to get these few questions cleared before making the dive BACK to TiVo.

Thanks in advance,
Rob
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Old 07-25-2007, 09:08 PM   #166
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Does TiVo HD (or Series 3) have TWO (2) ATSC tuners to tune OTA digital content or just one?
two
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Old 07-25-2007, 09:12 PM   #167
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Originally Posted by netslacker
Pardon my intrusion... I have become an avid reader of this forum since the release of the TiVo HD just a couple days ago and this thread is dealing w/ a question that I have always had concerning the recording of HD and SD content.

It stands to reason that if you are recording from a digital channel (say 5.1) where all the content is upconverted to 1080i that anything recorded off that channel (either SD originally or HD) is taking up the whole 8.5gb / hour. Afterall, that is how the signal is being received by the tuner.

However, in my area (as well as others), all the shows are simulcast in digital SD on say channel 5.2 where everything is sent at 480i on the digital sub-channel. Now I am not talking about NTSC/analog broadcasting, but rather the digital sub-channel of the same network.

So here's my assumptions and questions:

Assuming the above 1080i computation of ~8.5gb of disk space per hour then it stands to reason that 480i digital is going to be ~2-3gb per hour - being less than 1/4 the resolution.. (also assuming that digital signals are not reprocessed by the TiVo but stored to the drive as they are received). The compression settings only apply to NTSC/Analog signals and have no affect on an SD/HD digital signal.

Does TiVo HD (or Series 3) have TWO (2) ATSC tuners to tune OTA digital content or just one? I have seen this represented both ways and this is rather a make or break specification. Having a dual ATSC tuner DVR for OTA digital channels is the clincher that will make this new Tivo my next tech purchase. I cannot tune the analog signals as they are too weak (and no cable in the mountains), but my Sony ATSC tuner gets 20+ different digital channels OTA just fine and in perfect picture.

I have been eagerly waiting for TiVo to come out w/ an affordable HD DVR and now I just need to get these few questions cleared before making the dive BACK to TiVo.

Thanks in advance,
Rob
On an OTA channel, the TV station decides how much bandwidth to devote to each of the streams broadcast on their channel. It is given a total of 19.38 Mbps to work with. It can essentially split that up however it likes. The TiVo will just capture what it receives. Mbps can mathematically be converted to GB per hour. For simplicity, just multiply the bandwidth in mbps by 0.44 to obtain GB per hour.

It has two digital OTA tuners, two digital cable tuners, two analog OTA tuners and two analog cable tuners. Any two of these tuners can be used at the same time.
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Old 07-25-2007, 09:12 PM   #168
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two
Verified. I just recorded an HD show OTA and then switched to another HD OTA show without problems.
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Old 07-25-2007, 09:13 PM   #169
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Originally Posted by aindik
If the station is sending its signal in 1080i or 720p, it will take up the full space of a 1080i or 720p signal, even if the actual content is upconverted 480i. Most of the networks send their main digital channel in the HD resolution 24/7, regardless of the quality of the source of a given program. So yeah, an hour off the CBS HD channel recording Dr. Phil in SD is going to take up as much space as an hour off the CBS HD channel recording CSI: Miami in HD. So, it behooves you to set your SPs for shows that aren't in HD on the SD channel, not the HD channel.
Well, there is a difference. For some reason the SD shows on the HD channels look better than they do on the analog channels, so I still tell it to record it on the HD channel. I guess its just the difference in one being a digital channel and the other analog.
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Old 07-25-2007, 09:16 PM   #170
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Interesting issue just came up. I'm watching the Tivo Video tours (yeah Shannon!) and the audio has completely dropped out (have it hooked up via HDMI). Until I play another video the menus have no sound. When I do hit play, there's a couple popping sounds and everything goes back to normal. Not sure what's causing it, the HDMI, my TV or the Tivo...
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Old 07-25-2007, 09:16 PM   #171
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Originally Posted by Sandlapper
Well, there is a difference. For some reason the SD shows on the HD channels look better than they do on the analog channels, so I still tell it to record it on the HD channel. I guess its just the difference in one being a digital channel and the other analog.
Yes, there is a difference in quality. The question is whether the difference is worth 8X the hard disk space. That's a question only you can answer.
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Old 07-25-2007, 09:28 PM   #172
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@c3
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wow! that was fast and great response! What an awesome forum! Thanks for the replies, this is all great news for me as this has been two years in the making since we moved and had to give up my series 2....
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Old 07-25-2007, 09:34 PM   #173
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@c3
@aindik
@knownzero

wow! that was fast and great response! What an awesome forum! Thanks for the replies, this is all great news for me as this has been two years in the making since we moved and had to give up my series 2....
No problem, welcome to the forums! I can't wait to get the cablecards installed and get rid of the darn cableco DVR.
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Old 07-25-2007, 09:42 PM   #174
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Well, there is a difference. For some reason the SD shows on the HD channels look better than they do on the analog channels, so I still tell it to record it on the HD channel. I guess its just the difference in one being a digital channel and the other analog.
The improvement you see is the result of 1) a higher quality source and 2) less compression.

Most cable providers encode their SD digital channels at 528x480 or 544x480. In contrast, on the HD channels, most networks upconvert the original D1 source (720x480).

Upconverted SD is also less highly compressed (relatively) than digital SD.
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Old 07-26-2007, 12:46 AM   #175
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I tried again today, and the rep explained that they got a communication yesterday morning, about grandfather transfers of lifetime, code 09-07-04, specifically telling them that it is not available for the new TiVoHD. Each rep I spoke with knew exactly what I was talking about, knew the code number before I had to give it to them, and said that it is NOT available for this model. If anyone has a different experience, please post.
Wow. Guess we'll have to wait for Stephen or Pony to weigh in on this one.

If it were me, I'd ask for a case # and to be transfered to a supervisor - that's a pretty big (and unannounced) policy change, if true.
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Old 07-26-2007, 12:56 AM   #176
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Enable TTG and MRV on the TiVoHD and I will pick 2 up in a snap to replace my 2 DT units. That is #1. Second only to that is the cost/options of eSATA storage expansion.
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Old 07-26-2007, 12:58 AM   #177
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If I want to get 2 new Tivo HD boxes will my best monthly cost be a 3-year prepaid plan at $299 and a 3-year month-to-month at $6.95 for MSD? Will it make a difference if I buy either the boxes or the service from Tivo direct or from a retailer?
Buy the first box from Tivo with the $299 prepaid. Buy the second box from a retailer and get the 3 yr month to month.

Quote:
I have a lifetime subscription to a DirecTV box with Tivo, which I guess is worthless to the Tivo HD, correct? Since I'm not using that box anymore is my best bet to eBay it with the lifetime sub?
Yes, but a DirecTV lifetime sub stays with the account, not the box, so I'd be surprised if you get much for it on eBay.

Quote:
Edit: For extra credit... Does anyone know what Comcast (Seattle area) will charge me for the CableCards? According to their website it looks like the first card in each box is free, and the second (if I can't get an M-card) would be up to $1.91/month... plus I'd pay ($5.10 ??) for the "additional outlet". Does that look right? Is there anyway to get around the "additional outlet" fee if both boxes are plugged into the same outlet via a splitter?
Can't answer for sure about Seattle area, but an additional outlet charge should not apply. As for the CableCARDs, the first is included in any digital package, the second should be $1.50, so maybe $1.91 has some other fees included in that price.
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Old 07-26-2007, 01:55 AM   #178
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What would be better, cost efficient vs time, to upgrade new tivo hd hard disc size or just get a series 3 and fork out more bucks?
Most cost efficient would be to buy an HD TiVo and put the money saved vs the S3 towards an HD upgrade. Most time efficient would be to buy a pre upgraded one from Weaknees or other vendor.

If I were buying one today, I'd be be buying an HD TiVO and a 1TB upgrade.
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Old 07-26-2007, 05:01 AM   #179
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Originally Posted by jfh3
Buy the first box from Tivo with the $299 prepaid. Buy the second box from a retailer and get the 3 yr month to month.
Please explain the advantages of that? I'm thoroughly confused now about 3-year month-to-month, etc.
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Old 07-26-2007, 05:39 AM   #180
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Go Hokies and Rainwater: Thanks, I think I'll order from Circuit City. Seems like a bad decision for TiVo to make their pricing plan so convoluted that we need to buy elsewhere . . . but, um, that's not my problem.

But don't you think I'm safer if I cancel my TiVo service before my month is up (July 5), and then get new 3-year service from TiVo?
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