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Old 07-24-2007, 01:47 AM   #331
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Quote:
Originally Posted by davezatz
Comcast gives me my cards for free.
Did you notice any differences in tuning QAM channels between the Series3 and SeriesHD? Quoting from the ATI Theater site:
Quote:
Theater 314/312 offers exceptional performance in the cable environment. Their adaptive blind equalization algorithms allow for fast acquisition times, while interference detection and mitigation algorithms provide robust performance in the presence of burst noise and adjacent channel interference.
Did you see anything to suggest that the equalization in the TivoHD might be better than the Series3?
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Old 07-24-2007, 01:47 AM   #332
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Quote:
Originally Posted by stevereis
The VIXS XCode 2115 chipset in megazone's photos looks interesting...

This link has the specs for the 2111:
http://www.vixs.com/sections/product...xcode_2111.htm

Note that it can to HD to SD transcoding and even MPEG2-HD to MPEG4 HD transcode. So, theoretically, TiVo could enable a down-rez function for MRV (would probably have to do it in the background and disable viewing since this is probably the only decoder in the box). They could also enable an HD 're-compress' function to squeeze HD shows you want to archive for longer term to MPEG4 so they take less HDD space.

I do not see H.264 or VC-1 support in the 2111 but the 2115 may have it. If not, that may limit the formats that the S3 line may eventually support for PC transfers since they would probably limit to the formats both boxes could display.
Where are those pics?

It wasn't clear to me that the MPEG 4 transcode was HD? What is ASP L5?

What catches my eye is the MSDRM and Real Networks DRM. Could this lead to protected WMV content being available?

Does the S3 have any of this too?
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Old 07-24-2007, 01:55 AM   #333
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HDTiVo
Where are those pics?

It wasn't clear to me that the MPEG 4 transcode was HD? What is ASP L5?
ASP5 L5 is the MPEG-4 (Part 2) profile that allows for frame rates up to 720x576 @ 30 fps.

Tthe previous poster misunderstood. The XCode 2111 doesn't do MPEG-2 HD to MPEG-4 HD.

Quote:
Originally Posted by HDTiVo
What catches my eye is the MSDRM and Real Networks DRM. Could this lead to protected WMV content being available?

Does the S3 have any of this too?
The original Series3 used a Broadcom BCM7042. Broadcom doesn't have the datasheet for their part, but a BCM7041 is basically two BCM7042 encoders on a single chip. It has no means to encode or transcode to MPEG-4.
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Old 07-24-2007, 02:03 AM   #334
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Originally Posted by supasta
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Sorry, people are not going to pay $300 more for the exact same thing minus a fancy remote($30) and 90GB of storage($?? but with the soon available upgrade eSATA drives from BB this is more the case)
I think TiVo can get away with charging a premium for the S3. They should probably bump up the hard drive space but I think there is a market for people who want the best of the best in their HT setup and this usually includes THX certification. Just because you don't find a use for it doesn't mean no one will.
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Old 07-24-2007, 02:08 AM   #335
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bkdtv
ASP5 L5 is the MPEG-4 (Part 2) profile that allows for frame rates up to 720x576 @ 30 fps.

Tthe previous poster misunderstood. The XCode 2111 doesn't do MPEG-2 HD to MPEG-4 HD.

The original Series3 used a Broadcom BCM7042. Broadcom doesn't have the datasheet for their part, but a BCM7041 is basically two BCM7042 encoders on a single chip. It has no means to encode or transcode to MPEG-4.
I thought so about the S3. Someone said tonight it has a transcoder too. So they were wrong.

One thing about the specs:

Quote:
TurboMPEGTM Transcoding

Format conversion of multiple streams:

· MPEG2 HD to MPEG2 SD

· MPEG2 HD to MPEG4 (ASP, SP)

Bit-rate reduction of multiple streams:

· 30 Mbps č 128 Kbps

Resolution reduction of streams:

· HDTV --> SDTV --> CIF --> QCIF

· HDTV --> HDTV

High-speed video processing up to 8X real-time
The next to last line HDTV --> HDTV. What does that mean then?
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Old 07-24-2007, 02:18 AM   #336
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Originally Posted by HDTiVo
I thought so about the S3. Someone said tonight it has a transcoder too. So they were wrong.
The full specifications for the BCM7041 aren't published. It may do HD MPEG-2 -> SD MPEG-2 transcoding. Broadcom's part with MPEG-4 encoding and transcoding is the BCM7043, and it's not done yet.

Quote:
The next to last line HDTV --> HDTV. What does that mean then?
I don't know. Passthrough, maybe? But for HD encoding, it would need to say MP@HL. For HD transcoding, it would need to say High Profile (HP), not Advanced Simple Profile (ASP).

More curious is the specifications state "Single D1 MPEG 2/4 (ASP, SP) encode capable." A single XCode 2111 cannot encode two analog streams at once. Edit: The TivoHD uses the 2115, not the 2111, so it's likely that the 2115 adds a second encoder.

Last edited by bkdtv : 07-24-2007 at 02:37 AM.
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Old 07-24-2007, 02:27 AM   #337
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Now that I know where to look... the chip I see in the picture says 2115.

And there is no 2115 in their product list or found upon a search.
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Old 07-24-2007, 02:44 AM   #338
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bkdtv
Some of the specifications posted earlier to this thread were off the mark. From zatz blurry shots, it looks like:

TivoHD Specifications (TCD652160)
- BCM7401 DVR CPU w/ integrated MPEG-2 and MPEG-4 decoders
- 2x ATI Theater 314 based tuners
- VIXS XCode 2115 encoder / transcoder
- 2x 128Mbit (32Mb total) NANYA DDR400 SDRAM (NT5DS8M16FS-5T) for encoder
- 2x 512Mbit (128Mb total) NANYA DDR400 SDRAM (NT5DS32M16BS-5U) main memory
- 160Gb SATA HD
- Xilinx Spartan-? FPGA
- Cheaper PCB w/o PCI slots

It will be interesting to see if the ATI tuners can eliminate the digital tuning issues reported by some customers.
From the information that you currently have, would you say that one platform is better than the other? If so, why?
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Old 07-24-2007, 02:53 AM   #339
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The diagram on this page http://www.vixs.com/sections/markets...ns_pvr_stb.htm
seems to show two analog inputs

This sheet on the 2121 shows two hybrid tuners...
http://www.vixs.com/sections/product...21-07-V1.0.pdf

This sheet on the 2111 shows one hybrid tuner
http://www.vixs.com/sections/product...11-07-V1.0.pdf

Last edited by HDTiVo : 07-24-2007 at 03:44 AM.
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Old 07-24-2007, 03:33 AM   #340
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The 7041 appears to have two analog encoders...
http://www.broadcom.com/collateral/pb/7041-PB05-R.pdf

The 7401 has one or two encoders?
http://www.broadcom.com/collateral/pb/7401-PB04-R.pdf

could the TiVo HD be using the 2115 and the 7401 for two analog encodes?
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Old 07-24-2007, 03:36 AM   #341
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Quote:
Originally Posted by riddick21
I think TiVo can get away with charging a premium for the S3. They should probably bump up the hard drive space but I think there is a market for people who want the best of the best in their HT setup and this usually includes THX certification. Just because you don't find a use for it doesn't mean no one will.
If both were available when I bought my S3 I still would have bought the S3. I definitely think there's a market for them still.
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Old 07-24-2007, 05:22 AM   #342
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My review.

TiVo HD Photos

There are some errors in the thread - the ViXS chip isn't the encoder, there are two Philips/NXT SAA7138CHL encoders. One chained off each ATI Theater 314. I'm curious what the ViXS XCode-2115 is doing myself.

There are 6 RAM chips - 2x8MB, one for each encoder chain, and 4x32MB for the main memory.

There are other, more interesting things in there - like the A/V *input* traces, and the 3rd SATA header. ;-)

As for TiVoToGo/MRV. I was told is is coming later this year and it will use the network, just like the S2. Not the coax.
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Last edited by megazone : 07-24-2007 at 06:16 AM.
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Old 07-24-2007, 06:10 AM   #343
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Old 07-24-2007, 06:11 AM   #344
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HDTiVo
I thought so about the S3. Someone said tonight it has a transcoder too. So they were wrong.

One thing about the specs:



The next to last line HDTV --> HDTV. What does that mean then?
Could be transrating.
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Old 07-24-2007, 07:44 AM   #345
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It's clear (to me) that they designed both units and intended to start with the first Series 3 and replace it when supplies ran out. It seems like they did not expect to sell as many Series 3's as they did, and are now coming out with this less than a year after the release.
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Old 07-24-2007, 07:52 AM   #346
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Adam1115
It's clear (to me) that they designed both units and intended to start with the first Series 3 and replace it when supplies ran out. It seems like they did not expect to sell as many Series 3's as they did, and are now coming out with this less than a year after the release.
Is it correct to say that your opinion is that TiVo is going to discontinue the S3 once current supplies run out?
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Old 07-24-2007, 08:11 AM   #347
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Quote:
Originally Posted by megazone
My review.

TiVo HD Photos

There are 6 RAM chips - 2x8MB, one for each encoder chain, and 4x32MB for the main memory.

There are other, more interesting things in there - like the A/V *input* traces, and the 3rd SATA header. ;-)

As for TiVoToGo/MRV. I was told is is coming later this year and it will use the network, just like the S2. Not the coax.
From your review:

Quote:
Originally Posted by megazone
Each encoder has an associated Nanya NT5DS8M16FS-5T chip, which is a dedicated 8MB RAM bank. The main system memory consists of four Nanya NT5DS32M16BS-5U chips, for a total of 128MB RAM - the same as the Series3.
According to page two of NANYA's product guide, the NT5DS32M16BS-5U is 512Mbit part, aka 64MB. Four of them translates to 256MB.

If 128Mb of that is devoted to system memory, then the other half must be devoted to the ViXS XCode?

Quote:
Originally Posted by megazone
I'm curious what the ViXS XCode-2115 is doing myself.
This January press release probably gives a hint:
Quote:
CableCard Conditional Access SDK - ViXS will show its CableCardTM development kit for DTV embedded systems and will feature the industry’s first development kit for M-CARD system development. The SDK is developed around the ViXS XCodeTM 2121 single chip video engine with glueless CableCardTM and SmartCardTM interfaces embedded. The SDK reference design will support development of the TranscryptionTM of scrambled data to a number of DRM systems and transcoding of video into various MPEG formats.
It looks like Tivo is using a variation of the 2121 to provide the CableCard / MCARD interfaces and encoding / transcoding. As a bonus, it may also support SD->HD and HD->SD transcoding for MRV with Tivo Series2 units.

Last edited by bkdtv : 07-24-2007 at 10:25 AM.
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Old 07-24-2007, 08:11 AM   #348
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Where are going with dropping any 'series' designation in the model name? Do they not expect an eventually replacement for the TiVo HD? The 'Series 2' moniker seemed to cover a fairly broad range of models, but they don't want the new unit considered as a series 3.
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Old 07-24-2007, 08:25 AM   #349
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Quote:
Originally Posted by megazone
As for TiVoToGo/MRV. I was told is is coming later this year and it will use the network, just like the S2. Not the coax.
Hm, I wonder if they'll be moving HD files. And if so, how long is it going to take?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Adam1115
It seems like they did not expect to sell as many Series 3's as they did
What makes you think that?
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Old 07-24-2007, 08:49 AM   #350
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Quote:
Originally Posted by megazone
I'm curious what the ViXS XCode-2115 is doing myself.
Good, I feel less stupid. You've been very helpful. Now let's send Dave to Picture Taking of Review Unit Guts school.
Quote:
There are other, more interesting things in there - like the A/V *input* traces, and the 3rd SATA header. ;-)

As for TiVoToGo/MRV. I was told is is coming later this year and it will use the network, just like the S2. Not the coax.
Good stuff. I went to bed thinking the TiVo HD may have some very interesting hardware capabilities the S3 does not. I look forward to learing more.

One thing I wonder is in what way the TiVo HD is the same platform as the S3? With these different chips it seems somewhat different, perhaps even its own platform as in a seperate direction to functionality.

Quote:
Originally Posted by dave
Hm, I wonder if they'll be moving HD files. And if so, how long is it going to take?
Denny says they are working on not being resolution restricted. Sounds like another death match leading to a long wait to me.
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Old 07-24-2007, 09:21 AM   #351
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Quote:
Originally Posted by megazone
There are some errors in the thread - the ViXS chip isn't the encoder, there are two Philips/NXT SAA7138CHL encoders. One chained off each ATI Theater 314. I'm curious what the ViXS XCode-2115 is doing myself.
The Philip 7138's are not MPEG encoders, just analog to digital converters (encoders) for both the video and audio:http://www.nxp.com/acrobat_download/...7/75015903.pdf
Interesting thing to note is that they can accept 480p progressive component inputs (not that the new box has them).
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Old 07-24-2007, 09:43 AM   #352
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Adam1115
It's clear (to me) that they designed both units and intended to start with the first Series 3 and replace it when supplies ran out. It seems like they did not expect to sell as many Series 3's as they did, and are now coming out with this less than a year after the release.
Do you have any actual evidence to back up that wild claim? If the unit was designed so long ago, why were there a 6 month gap in between when Tivo announced they were "working on it" to release?

If you're going to make outragous statements like this, you may want to supply some form of evidence.
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Old 07-24-2007, 09:47 AM   #353
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GoHokies!
Do you have any actual evidence to back up that wild claim? If the unit was designed so long ago, why were there a 6 month gap in between when Tivo announced they were "working on it" to release?

If you're going to make outragous statements like this, you may want to supply some form of evidence.
Seems like a form of what economists call "price discrimination," getting people who are willing to pay more to pay more. They release one thing and price it at $800, capturing the full $800 from everyone willing to spend $800 or more on an HD DVR. When the supply of those people is exhausted, then introduce the $300 model to capture everyone else.

Why not just price the thing at $800 until it stops selling and then reduce the price to $300? PR is better when you introduce a cheaper unit, rather than cutting a price of a unit whose price you could have started that low.

No evidence, just a theory.
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Old 07-24-2007, 10:04 AM   #354
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Mega:

I am reading your review and wanted to point this out about the 3rd Sata connection; it is something I wrote about last year and it hit me last night when I saw the transcoder. The possibility of transcoding to DVD format of HD content (and SD) to be burned via a DVD burner.

Some other thoughts:

I don't get the front CC card slots with the expense of a door. You put the cards in once (hopefully) and never access them. Seems like a big waste - unless TiVo is resigned to CCs being highly troublesome.

Are the same Hybrid modes still there? Are there new output modes?

With all the chip changes, etc., how is this really the S3 platform?

Last edited by HDTiVo : 07-24-2007 at 10:29 AM.
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Old 07-24-2007, 10:08 AM   #355
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Quote:
Originally Posted by megazone
There are other, more interesting things in there - like the A/V *input* traces, and the 3rd SATA header. ;-)
The AV input and what looks like IR/Serial ports (ala Series2) is very interesting indeed. If the 3rd SATA port is for a DVD burner, then perhaps the AV input could be used to import content not only as regular TiVo content, but also to burn to disc. With the IR/Serial, one could control a regular STB, but I don't see why you would want to.
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Old 07-24-2007, 10:15 AM   #356
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HDTiVo
With all the chip changes, etc., how is this really the S3 platform?
The Broadcom BCM7401 CPU integrates the BCM7038 and BCM7411 found in the S3 platform. That higher-level software code should be backward compatible.

But you are right, the new TivoHD will need separate drivers for its new tuners, encodes, and CableCard interface. The ViXS XCode CableCard interface is quite different from that in the Series3, so MCARD support for the TivoHD can't be directly ported to the Series3.
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Old 07-24-2007, 10:16 AM   #357
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More:

Does the lack of Broadcom chips represent a major departure from TiVo being a Broadcom shop? How much software work went into making this move?

I am thinking TiVo got a customized version of the ViXS 2100 line for itself.

With all that's in this unit, I find it hard to see enough savings to justify the lower retail price without some HW subsidy. I think their strategy is a bit changed on that.

You mention the platform taking over the S2, but with the cost of the design, I wonder if that's possible, or how it could be made to be so.
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Old 07-24-2007, 10:16 AM   #358
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Quote:
With the IR/Serial, one could control a regular STB, but I don't see why you would want to.
This might actually be interesting to satellite users OTA digital/HD + satellite SD on one box. It would make staying with Tivo when I go HD easier. I most likely would also have a dish HD DVR but having a HD OTA Tivo that could also control another dish STB would be useful.

Thanks,
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Old 07-24-2007, 10:18 AM   #359
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Quote:
Originally Posted by aindik
This thing at $299 down plus $6.95 a month, versus the cable DVR at $0 down and 11.95 a month. Break-even is at about 70 months. This thing won't last 6 years, so there must be some value added for the increased price over the cable DVR.

Estimate it lasts for 3 years. Present value of 36 monthly payments of $6.95 (assuming 5% interest) is $231.89. Plus $299 box fee makes the present value to own and use for 36 months to be $530.89. Present value of 36 monthly payments of $11.95 is $398.72. Difference is $132.17, or $3.96 a month. Plus the cost of cablecards. That's the cost of the TiVo service. Worth it?
Where do you get a service plan for $6.95?
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Old 07-24-2007, 10:20 AM   #360
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Where do you get a service plan for $6.95?
Multi-Service Discount with a three year agreement. (I have a Series 2 TiVo with lifetime service).
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