Mac Users lack Tivo togo support

[Dennis Wilkinson]

Originally Posted by murrays

Basically, I’m wondering if I can use the Series 2 without a subscription to view shows recorded on the Series 3.

Even if TiVo gets permission to turn on multi-room viewing from the OpenCable folks, and SD MPEG recorded on a Series 3 is compatible with the Series 2, a Series 2 can do nothing at all except trick-play live TV without a subscription.

So, regardless of how the two big "ifs" above work out, the answer is no.

If all you really want to do is watch the S3 in one of the two rooms, or watch the same programming in two rooms simultaneously, you could use a video sender of some sort (A/V baluns, or something like Terk's Leapfrog) to ship the SD video around.

[Fofer]

Originally Posted by Dennis Wilkinson

If all you really want to do is watch the S3 in one of the two rooms, or watch the same programming in two rooms simultaneously, you could use a video sender of some sort (A/V baluns, or something like Terk's Leapfrog) to ship the SD video around.

Using a modulator would work too... that's actually how I distribute TiVo to TV sets around the house.

For a better picture I've got my bedroom TV wired to my living room TiVo via really long s-video and audio (composite) cables.

I find this preferable to having to "wait" while a TiVo MRV's a show. Also nice that my bedroom doesn't have the "whirrrrr" of a TiVo keeping me up at night (I'm a light sleeper.)

But most importantly, since S3 doesn't do MRV (yet? ever?) it's a system that, as of today, will Just Work™.

[murrays]

Hmm, ok, I was afraid of that. Perhaps by next year there will be a way to use a Series 3 with an iTV (yeah, right!)

-murray

[gonzotek]

Originally Posted by cwoody222

I am 99% sure a Series2 can't do ANYTHING without a subscription. Not even trick play with live TV and certainly not 'advanced' features like be networked to your mac.

From the TiVo Support site(emphasis added by me):

A TiVo Digital Video Recorder (DVR) is intended for use only with a paid subscription to the TiVo service. Without the TiVo service:

# A TiVo DVR has extremely limited functionality, e.g., pause, fast-forward, rewind, and slow-mo live TV.

# No smart, automatic-recording service functionality is represented or should be expected.

Note: Series1 DVRs manufactured before October of 2001 are able to make manual time-based recordings without TiVo service if they shipped with software version 1.3 or earlier.

Originally Posted by cwoody222

I think there's even issues with the MPEG formats between the two Series'.

Do you have a reference for this? I'm not aware of any discussions/investigations on the technical qualities of S3 recordings. If such exist, I'm interested in learning about the topic.

[cwoody222]

I thought the Series3 used MPEG-4. I see I'm wrong. It CAN do both MPEG-2 and MPEG-4 but currently records in 2. So I guess the formats could be compatible.

[cwoody222]

If TiVo really wanted to a) put out a good Mac product and b) actually communicate with Mac users they'd take a lesson from the good folks at Slingbox

http://www.pvrwire.com/2006/10/17/sl...a-by-november/

[rworne]

Well, I was fairly quiet waiting news for TiVo2go for the Mac.

About 2 weeks ago I disconnected the TiVo and set up a MythTV box. I found the MythTV box is much more Mac-friendly than TiVo could ever hope to be, as well as supplying my videos in MPEG-2 or any other format I desire. Unlike my Series-2, I also get all my OTA stuff via a digital ATSC tuner as well as HD content too.

Now, I'm more disappointed at TiVo than angry, but the lack of new features for Mac owners was a real disappointment. The slowness of the box, which gets worse with every update is horrible (3-5 sec delays on the menus).

My only gripe now is that since I paid for lifetime, TiVo isn't losing a subscriber. Though if I ebay the box, it will prevent them from getting a new one, which is just as good.

Now MythTV has it's quirks and bugs - as well as being a chore to set up - but it certainly performs well as a DVR (and other things). The cost was roughly the same as a new Series-3, and does all the 3 can do and much more.

[donsullivan]

Originally Posted by cwoody222

If TiVo really wanted to a) put out a good Mac product and b) actually communicate with Mac users they'd take a lesson from the good folks at Slingbox

http://www.pvrwire.com/2006/10/17/sl...a-by-november/

I'm not sure I'd use Slingbox as an example of communicating well with their potential Mac customers. They are going through a majorly botched product rollout as it relates to Mac support. The new products they announced in September were advertised on the web site, in their press releases and on the boxes as supporting OS X. It turns out they don't and they can't tell you for sure when they will because there is no software. I made the mistake of trusting all of that information and got the box home only to find out I couldn't use it and had to return it. I've since learned that they've been promising this software since Macworld in January and have missed at least 2 other committments to ship a Mac client.

They've ended up having to pull nearly all the references to supporting OS X off of their web site because of misrepresentation issues. At this point they've become so shell shocked by the error they made they've essentially gone silent on the topic. In September the mac client was going to ship in week 3, then is was in october, then tech support said no sooner than Mid-November. Bottom line while we're told there is a private beta, NDA's (I'm assuming) would prevent any actual confirmation that it does indeed exist.

While clearly not as arrogant as TiVo's approach not nearly an example of a vendor effectively communicting with their customer base.

[cwoody222]

I didn't know all that!

That said, I still get the feeling that Slingbox is TRYING whereas I have fully believed for months that TiVo has no intention whatsoever of ever releasing a Mac product (regardless of what they imply here).

[Larshart]

Originally Posted by ccoulson

Called Tivo support today and asked the latest status on TTG for Mac. I loved the reponse so much I just had to share it with rest... Her response was "we have been working very hard on Tivo To Go for Mac for over two years now, but Apple is making it very difficult for us becuase they keep updating Mac OS X every few months."

There is no way that all of Apple's incremental bug fix updates could be causing their programmers grief.

I've seen some screenshots of it being demoed at some shows. I wish they would just give it to us NOW and call it a beta! I could deal some crashes and bugs.

Better yet, why don't they Open Source it. Give it to the community and let all the programmers out in the wild help out.

What was that sound? Did you hear it? I think someone at the MPAA just dropped dead of a heart attack.

[icurnvs]

Originally Posted by cwoody222

I didn't know all that!

That said, I still get the feeling that Slingbox is TRYING whereas I have fully believed for months that TiVo has no intention whatsoever of ever releasing a Mac product (regardless of what they imply here).

If you're so convinced and positive that Tivo is never going to support Macs, then why do you post in this thread almost daily? Wouldn't that be like beating a dead horse?
Admit it...there's still some hope left in ya.

[rworne]

Originally Posted by icurnvs

If you're so convinced and positive that Tivo is never going to support Macs, then why do you post in this thread almost daily? Wouldn't that be like beating a dead horse?
Admit it...there's still some hope left in ya.

Actually, it can be explained by this true story:

In Japan, there was a dog named Hachiko who waited for his master to return from work every day at the train station.

One day, his master died. Yet every day after that, the dog waited on the platform for his master to appear - and did so for the next eleven years.


That pretty much sums up TiVo's Mac support and the Mac faithful.

[cwoody222]

I want them to prove me wrong. But I don't think they will.

I bought a S3 and am selling my S2 now anyway so TiVoToGo for me is a moot point. Although I still think they should support Macs for all the other users out there.

[Fofer]

Originally Posted by cwoody222

I bought a S3 and am selling my S2 now anyway so TiVoToGo for me is a moot point. Although I still think they should support Macs for all the other users out there.

It may be a moot point now... but I suspect you'll be hopping mad (again) when they eventually enable TTG for the Series 3... for Windows users only.

[cwoody222]

Nah.

I honestly have no hope for S3 ToGo support due to CableCARD / digital rights issues. I don't blame TiVo for that one, though.

[chessplayer]

Originally Posted by rworne

Actually, it can be explained by this true story:

In Japan, there was a dog named Hachiko who waited for his master to return from work every day at the train station.

Nice analogy. There was a very sad episode of Futurama based on this story. Actually, I feel betrayed by TiVo's deception on this issue, whereas I don't believe that the dog felt betrayed.

How vile it is of TiVo to continue to pretend to be working hard on Mac support, even after the CFO said years ago not to expect Mac support in the forseeable future. It took a lot of nerve for TiVo to deny the CFO's statement, and keep stringing Mac users along.

[davezatz]

Originally Posted by donsullivan

Bottom line while we're told there is a private beta, NDA's (I'm assuming) would prevent any actual confirmation that it does indeed exist.

Sling gave me a demo on several Macs in their offices a few weeks ago, and I bumped into the crew at DigitalLife last week and they let me play around with the software on a MacBook. It exists, and the public beta will be available very soon - based on everything I've heard direct from Sling execs (not tech support rumors), I'd guess within 2 weeks we'll be able to download it.

Here's a pic I took at the Javits Center last Thursday:


Last but not least... I also chatted with the TiVo booth babe, who happens to be my press contact, at DL and was informed Mac TTG development continues. I couldn't get her to reveal a time frame, but she mentioned there could be an announcement sometime in the near future. Is the near future weeks or months? I'm afraid to speculate...

I'm glad to see cwoody won't be blaming TiVo for no S3 TTG.

[cwoody222]

Lemme correct my statement

IF TiVo has ANY TiVoToGo for S3 and even Windows, I'll be suprised. And won't blame TiVo if it doesn't happen.

But if TiVo has anything for Windows and then doesn't offer equal support for Macs, then the blame WILL lie squarely with TiVo.

[patdaddy]

why is it that you can download tivo to go recordings to an IPOD but only via a PC?
Now that is just wrong. Still waiting....2.5 years and counting.

patdaddy

[Fofer]

Originally Posted by patdaddy

why is it that you can download tivo to go recordings to an IPOD but only via a PC?

The irony astounds, doesn't it?

And this raises an interesting question. If the hold-up is due to DRM issues and playback on the Mac (and we know it is) then what would the response be if TiVo ultimately announced:

"We've got TTG support for Mac now, but it only syncs to a connected iPod. Playback directly on the Mac is not implied/available/supported/etc."

Interesting compromise, and I wonder what the public's response would be. It's better than nothing, no?

[rworne]

Originally Posted by Fofer

The irony astounds, doesn't it?

And this raises an interesting question. If the hold-up is due to DRM issues and playback on the Mac (and we know it is) then what would the response be if TiVo ultimately announced:

"We've got TTG support for Mac now, but it only syncs to a connected iPod. Playback directly on the Mac is not implied/available/supported/etc."

Interesting compromise, and I wonder what the public's response would be. It's better than nothing, no?

Since the TiVo itself cannot transcode *and* neither can the iPod, that leaves the Mac as the transcoding solution.

The big catch point is the intermediate files. They *could* transcode directly from the encrypted tivo video to an iPod format using their own program and skip Quicktime/iTunes - true. Then the only thing you could play on the Mac is the iPod video - with the watermarking and all that crap. TiVo would have control over the whole process from TiVo download to the final iPod video.

All that would be left is people bitching over the downgrade from what was demoed more than two years ago - and having to pay for it.

[ZeoTiVo]

Originally Posted by davezatz

Last but not least... I also chatted with the TiVo booth babe, who happens to be my press contact, at DL and was informed Mac TTG development continues. I couldn't get her to reveal a time frame, but she mentioned there could be an announcement sometime in the near future. Is the near future weeks or months? I'm afraid to speculate...

wow, still the tantalizing but vague info from TiVo. Wonder if the Mac developer at TiVo has any hair left

[ccoulson]

Originally Posted by Fofer

The irony astounds, doesn't it?

And this raises an interesting question. If the hold-up is due to DRM issues and playback on the Mac (and we know it is) then what would the response be if TiVo ultimately announced:

"We've got TTG support for Mac now, but it only syncs to a connected iPod. Playback directly on the Mac is not implied/available/supported/etc."

Interesting compromise, and I wonder what the public's response would be. It's better than nothing, no?

Doesn't help me - I want to watch TTG on a Mac laptop...

[Fofer]

Originally Posted by ccoulson

Doesn't help me - I want to watch TTG on a Mac laptop...

And I want a pony.

The point is, TiVo's dropped the ball for Mac users. And yet, I'd go so far as to say, being able to easily watch my TiVo content on an iPod would be better than nothing.

[pdxkevin]

I wrote an angry email the other night, and I actually received a response from the VP of Product Marketing for TiVo's retail products. I'm actually very surprised. I'll share what he had to say:

Dear Mr. ,

My name is Jim Denney, I am in Vice President of Product Marketing for TiVo's retail products. Tom Rogers forwarded your message to me. I wanted to thank you for your email and apologize for the delay in TiVoToGo for the Mac. I am sorry that you feel we have not paid attention to the Mac community. That is certainly not our intention. We are aware of our subscriber's desire to get TiVoToGo on the Mac. Believe it or not, we are actively working on the project and have been for the past year in various forms. Unfortunately, developing on the Mac platform has been a little more difficult because of its closed nature. We are working through the issues we have encountered. They are not simple to solve given the needs that we balance in TiVoToGo. We don't have a release date for the feature yet.

We have gotten ourselves in trouble in the past when we estimated it would be out by mid year this year, we obviously missed that date. In the interest of setting the right expectations this time we want to wait until the feature is actually ready. We are not ready to make that announcement yet. That is why our customer care representatives have been instructed to give the answer they gave you.


We can let you know when the feature is ready for launch. We are listening to you. Until it is ready, we appreciate your patience.

Jim

Jim Denney


I responded by suggesting that TiVo needs to work on communication; they need to do much better job of keeping us updated regardless of the news.

[chessplayer]

At least he replied, but how is it different than what we're used to:

TiVo: We're working hard.
Months pass...
Mac users: Any update?
TiVo: We're happy to say it will be available around...
Months and deadlines pass...
Mac users: Any update?
TiVo: It's hard work, but have no fear: we're still working hard.
Months pass...

Longwinded reassurances that they're working hard have very little credibility at this point.

By the way, does "have been for the past year" mean even TiVo admits they weren't seriously working on it in early '05?

[rworne]

Originally Posted by chessplayer

By the way, does "have been for the past year" mean even TiVo admits they weren't seriously working on it in early '05?

Naw, I'm pretty sure he meant since TivoPony's announcement.

[errandwolfe]

I wouldn't be all that impressed. Two things of note in this e-mail that are a big deal...

Originally Posted by pdxkevin

Believe it or not, we are actively working on the project and have been for the past year in various forms. Unfortunately, developing on the Mac platform has been a little more difficult because of its closed nature.

1. "In various forms". Seems to me you are either working on it or you are not. My interpretation on it is sometimes they have 20 highly skilled programmers working on it and sometimes (most of the time) they have 1 retarded monkey with torrets syndrome locked in a basement with a copy of TTG for Mac and a Beige G3 tower doing all the work.

2. Developing on a Mac is hard because it is a closed system? Give me a freakin break, it is a MUCH more open system then Windows. Anyone ever hear of Darwin? You can get most of the non-GUI code of the OS for free, it is open source!

[davezatz]

While it's too bad Mac TTG isn't here, I do appreciate Mr. Denney's frank reply. Sling Media isn't a direct competitor, but their public beta of the Mac Slingplayer should be available in the next few days. They're late too, but they've done it quicker than TiVo including apparently building a Mac WMV decoder.

I think the lesson for both these companies is don't announce release dates for new platforms as there's bound to be issues you didn't anticipate. Also I think they've learned they need to take the Mac community a bit more seriously, it may be small but it's a vocal group with money to spend on technology.

[cwoody222]

Originally Posted by pdxkevin

I wrote an angry email the other night, and I actually received a response from the VP of Product Marketing for TiVo's retail products. I'm actually very surprised. I'll share what he had to say:

Dear Mr. ,

My name is Jim Denney, I am in Vice President of Product Marketing for TiVo's retail products. Tom Rogers forwarded your message to me. I wanted to thank you for your email and apologize for the delay in TiVoToGo for the Mac. I am sorry that you feel we have not paid attention to the Mac community. That is certainly not our intention. We are aware of our subscriber's desire to get TiVoToGo on the Mac. Believe it or not, we are actively working on the project and have been for the past year in various forms. Unfortunately, developing on the Mac platform has been a little more difficult because of its closed nature. We are working through the issues we have encountered. They are not simple to solve given the needs that we balance in TiVoToGo. We don't have a release date for the feature yet.

We have gotten ourselves in trouble in the past when we estimated it would be out by mid year this year, we obviously missed that date. In the interest of setting the right expectations this time we want to wait until the feature is actually ready. We are not ready to make that announcement yet. That is why our customer care representatives have been instructed to give the answer they gave you.


We can let you know when the feature is ready for launch. We are listening to you. Until it is ready, we appreciate your patience.

Jim

Jim Denney


I responded by suggesting that TiVo needs to work on communication; they need to do much better job of keeping us updated regardless of the news.

So basically nothing has changed.

In essense:

1) We're working on it - really! Believe us! We have been for awhile. We swear.

2) Building software for a Mac is hard. Wah! We didn't realize it would be this hard.

3) We thought it would be easier so we made a date. We missed it. By a lot. And over and over again. So now so you don't get your hopes up we're not going to give any timeframe, not even a vague one.

4) We do love the Mac community. Really! Please don't hate on us!