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Old 09-24-2006, 03:33 PM   #31
eisenb11
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Hi guys, I have some info for you.

My plasma (Marantz PD5040D) has been having the same issue. If I turn it off the remote it works like a superhero, turn it on and it's superman on kryptonite.

I talked to tech support and they said it's a big issue at Tivo because there are a lot of plasma owners and if the plasma is mounted against a wall it's impossible to rececess the S3 further than the plasma.

They also said they have a lot of reports on this problem and it's driving plasma guys up the wall.

They said they're looking into 2 solutions.

1) changing the IR codes to ones that are more plasma compatible
2) changing the IR hardware in the S3

They said that if they change the hardware and our plasma is causing problems that should be good enough grounds for an exchange.
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Old 09-24-2006, 04:55 PM   #32
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Unfortunately I am having the same problem. I purchased 2 Tivo S3's. One for my Samsung HLP5685W DLP and the other for my Pioneer PDP-4270HD.
I started setting up the S3 for my plasma first. I positioned the S3 directly underneath the plasma in the first shelf of my wooden table top stand. Everything was going fine until I ran into the same Remote Control issue. The S3 would only respond about every 10 to 15 clicks on the remote. I thought it might be the remote so I opened the box of my second S3 (for the Samsung DLP) and pulled out the remote and tried it only to find out it did the same thing. Then I suspected bad batch of batteries. So I replaced all the batteries on the remote and still the same problem. I had heard about possible interference from other remotes so I took all other remotes in the room out of the room and still the same problem.
Then I started suspecting a bad S3. I grabbed the other one from the box and slapped it in and still the same problem. Then I thought maybe a batch of bad Tivo S3’s. So I took both of them out to my living room where my Samsung DLP sits and plugged both of them in directly underneath the DLP one at a time. Both worked perfectly.
I had also heard that Plasmas can cause a lot of IR interference. I took one of the S3’s back to the other room where the plasma is to try some different combinations. First I pulled the plasma as far forward as the table top stand would let me and then situated the S3 on the same first shelf but this time scooted it as far back as it would go. By doing this I was able to set the S3 behind the front plane of the plasma. It looked ugly as hell and I’m glad it did because it still didn’t work. Next I set the plasma and the S3 back to their normal positions, this time I turned off the plasma and immediately I could see the remote control light responding perfectly to my clicks on the remote. However I still was not sure if this was truly working since I couldn’t see nor hear anything on the screen (S3 directly connected to plasma via hdmi when plasma off all is off). So I grabbed a dark garbage bag and covered the plasma with it and turned it on and noticed S3 still working as if the Plasma was off. Then I pulled the garbage bag off and turned down the brightness on the plasma. This didn’t work. Then I set the brightness back and pulled out everything from the other shelves and placed the S3 at the bottom shelf which is about two feet below the plasma. This didn’t work either although I started getting better response about every 5 to 8 clicks on the remote. So then I decided to create a hood for the S3. I just took the advertisement from the Tivo HD box, the one with the gray dots and looks kinda like onion paper and reads ‘The TiVolution will now be televised in HD’
I just placed that (long way cross sectional to the S3) on top of the S3 (still in the bottom shelf) and just let it hang over the face of the S3 and the remote started working perfectly.
Its such a shame since the new S3 looks so nice.
I called Tivo support and they stated it was a bad remote. I explained to the tech everything that I did and still he said both remotes were bad “I’ll send you 2 new ones. Here is your case number. Goodbye”
I started researching online when I cam across this thread. Once I read about SLCMike getting a replacement and it working I decided that’s what I was going to do. So I called Tivo support back and told them that one of my S3’s would only get to the Welcome. Powering On screen then flicker and power off. I also advised them that the Welcome. Powering On screen was completely green and not the usual orange and black. They immediately gave me an Exchange number. Then I told them that my other S3 would not even power on. We trouble shooted of course plugging in different power cords different outlets etc… but to no avail. They immediately gave me an Exchange number. Now I feel bad about this but from my previous conversation with Tivo Support they were not willing to exchange these S3's but only the remotes. And these are brand new.
So I will let you know when I receive my replacement if they come with better IR sensors. I have a feeling it wont.

Best
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Old 09-24-2006, 05:17 PM   #33
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Oh my god. Your solution with the "onion" paper worked perfectly! I tried covering the top with cardboard overhanging the front about an inch, but that didnt' work. Moved the box behind the screen plane, that didn't work. Drooping the paper compeletly over the front works, your a genious! Of course now I can't see what time it is or what is recording. I'm surprised the TiVo IR goes through the paper but it does.

I wonder how we find out if they change the internal IR hardware and how long they will let us go before being able to exchange it?
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Old 09-24-2006, 05:24 PM   #34
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Hopefully, less than a month. This is a pretty big issue with Tivo for obvious reasons.

Guess we'll have to use these ugly-as-sin workarounds until Tivo gets the issue resolved...
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Old 09-24-2006, 06:36 PM   #35
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I'm pretty shocked none of the beta testers noticed this. You would think at least some of them would have had plasma's or Aquos LCD's....

And if you search the net- plasma's screwing up remotes is a fairly common thing.


I think Directv went with RF on their new HD DVR remote. Being a monday morning quarterback, that might have been wise...
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Old 09-24-2006, 08:15 PM   #36
eisenb11
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The problem with RF is that it's a huge pain in the butt to deal with where home automation and learning remotes come in.

Tivo should have just made an IR remote that didn't have these issues!

You're correct in that you'd think some of the beta testers would have a plasma. Guess Tivo didn't choose a good pool to represent all apsects of user equipment. I do recall that none of the beta reviews I had read online were by plasma owners.

I wonder how Tivo is going to fix the problem? They *have* to fix this problem... it's too annoying!

Any kind of fix they do is going to cost them as you're going to either have to exchange the remote or the S3 or both.

The CSRs mentioned a possible firmware fix to change the IR codes used. This is fine and dandy, but how will these new IR codes get to the remotes?

The cheapest fix I can think of is going to involve a remote exchange at the least...
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Old 09-24-2006, 11:31 PM   #37
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Weird - I fully expected to have this same problem as I am using a Samsung 42" Plasma and the S3 is mounted directly below and several inches in front of the Plasma screen. Its no more than 1.5 feet below.

Yet it works great - no issues noticed. Is it only certain BRAND Plasmas that have this interference problem?

Does using a Universal remote instead like the Harmony help at all?

Very strange. I am glad not to have the problem, but confused as to why I don't.
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Old 09-24-2006, 11:38 PM   #38
eisenb11
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Guess you're lucky. No it's not the only brand... just a popular one.

I have a Marantz PD5040D and I'm experiencing this problem.
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Old 09-24-2006, 11:50 PM   #39
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S3 + Plasma = Useless Remote? Alternative FIX

I have come up with a better alternative to the 'onion paper' hood. It just wasn't aesthetically pleasing. I figured the IR sensor had to be right behind the face plate as with most A/V components. So I decided to take my S3 apart and see if I could shield it some how without completely blocking it. Taking apart the S3 was very easy and the inside was very easy to work in. Removing the face plate was just as easy. Two screws at each upper corner, unplug the white ribbon cable from the main board than push back the three clips at the top holding the face plate to the main chassis and the face plate is off. There are 8 screws holding a green circuitry board on the back of the face plate. Once removed you will see the IR sensor on the other side of the circuitry board. It looks like a small black bulb that sits on a stand. You will also see a small square hole on the back of the face plate where the IR sensor extends into. I had to improvise since I could not use a piece of paper to sit flush across the hole which would block the IR sensor from extending through it. So I used GLAD Press and Seal by taking six 1.5 inch x 2 inch strips and covering the hole and creating a little dimple for the IR sensor. I put everything back to together and turned the S3 back on and viola it works perfectly and you CAN'T EVEN SEE IT. You might have to use more strips depending on how bright your plasma is or how much interference it produces. You could also use strips of those plastic grocery bags as long as there not clear but I didn't want to deal with tape. Here are the quick steps.

1. Unscrew the torque screws from the back of the Tivo S3 then remove the black cover of the S3
2. Unplug the white ribbon cable connecting the Face Plate to the main board. REMOVE FROM THE MAIN BOARD it just pulls right out of the connector. Just make sure you are pulling on it gently.
3. Unscrew the two torque silver screws at the top of each right and left corners that fastens the face plate to the main chassis.
4. Gently lift up on the three black clips on top of the S3 holding the face plate to the main chassis. You will need to feel around for it but there's one in the center and two towards the left of the S3 if you are facing it. Just run your fingers along the top lip of the opening and you will feel it.
5. Gently pull apart the Face Plate while threading the white ribbon cable back through the slit on the chassis. Then unscrew the eight silver screws holding the circuitry board to the back of the Face Plate. Then GENTLY lift up on the green circuitry board. There are loose items underneath. They are easy to put back but just incase you don't want the hassle of searching and retrieving them off the floor.
6. Find the small square hole on the left close to where the input buttons are. Take 6 to 8 (depending on your plasma) 1.5 inches x 2.0 inches of GLAD Press and Seal fix them across the hole making sure to create a small dimple in the hole for the IR Sensor. I just pushed my pinky finger where the small hole was to create the dimple.
7. Gently place the green circuitry board back and screw it down to the back of the Face Plate.
8. Thread the white ribbon cable back through the small slit in the front of the main chassis and reattach the Face Plate to the main chassis. Clip the bottom of the Face Plate to the chassis first and the rest will snap right in with a firm push.
9. Screw the two torque screws back on for the Face plate then Insert the blue end of the white ribbon cable back in the black connector on the main board.
10. Screw the black hood back on.

Now your ready to connect your S3 back to your plasma or lcd and test the remote.

You know tivo could have a quick fix buy retrofitting a plastic hood that fits into the IR sensor hole. They could send it out to the less unfortunates like us to self install.

Here are some pictures of what I did. Just copy and paste the link in your URL address bar and hit enter.

http://public.fotki.com/lightrunner/tivo_remote_fix/

updated: sorry i had to post 5 times before i could add a url link.

Last edited by lightrunner : 09-25-2006 at 10:22 PM.
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Old 09-25-2006, 10:47 AM   #40
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I also have a Samsung (63") and URC 200/Osirus which has great IR strength but still won't overcome the IR issues with the S3.

My thought is that it's more hardware issue than software/firmware updates to fix. The reason I think that is the IR codes/signals are the same commands that operate my S2 and S3. I also must echo that I find it very short sided to set up beta testers without plasma screens, especially with the number of HD users having plasma.
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Old 09-25-2006, 11:03 AM   #41
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Yeah I can't believe the beta testers didn't run into this. Or maybe they did and Tivo Support just advised them to use a hood so they could stay on target with the Tivo S3 release date.
I suggest every body on this post to contact engadget, slashdot, gizmodo etc... the more there is media attention the more likely Tivo will come up with a solution. In the mean time the fix that I mentioned by covering the IR sensor hole behind the faceplate is working great. And you dont even see it or notice it even when looking closely where the IR sensor is. And really after opening the S3 it only took 20 minutes to do. So if your like me and you don't want anything covering your S3 and you want it as it came out of the box (externall that is) than this is a good solution until they come out with a fix. I checked to make sure there was no extreme heat dissapation that would effect the GLAD PressSeal and there is almost no heat in the back of the Face Plate. Hope this works for you guys.
Take a look at the pictures the link in my previous post which show what I did. Just incase here is the link again.

http://public.fotki.com/lightrunner/tivo_remote_fix/
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Old 09-25-2006, 11:10 AM   #42
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Innerloop
Weird - I fully expected to have this same problem as I am using a Samsung 42" Plasma and the S3 is mounted directly below and several inches in front of the Plasma screen. Its no more than 1.5 feet below.

Yet it works great - no issues noticed. Is it only certain BRAND Plasmas that have this interference problem?

Does using a Universal remote instead like the Harmony help at all?

Very strange. I am glad not to have the problem, but confused as to why I don't.

apparently differnt brands of TV's behave differently- yes.
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Old 09-25-2006, 11:16 AM   #43
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ronfl
I also must echo that I find it very short sided to set up beta testers without plasma screens, especially with the number of HD users having plasma.
ECHO. Especially given the fact that knowledge about IR issues with plasmas has been available for years. It should be a basic test for any CE company nowadays.

That said, my plasma causes no problems, so it's possible they DID test with plasmas, but not with plasmas that actually generate the undesired effect.
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Old 09-25-2006, 11:25 AM   #44
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Lightrunner,

So is your "fix" with the clear wrap intended to just gently push back the RF diode behind the front plane of the panel or to give a more translucent cover over the diode to block random IR signals?
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Old 09-25-2006, 11:35 AM   #45
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ronfl,
The second. To give a more translucent cover over the diode to block random IR signals. I tried using that onion paper but this just covered up the IR hole. The IR Sensor has to fit through this hole so I had to use something flexible that would allow a small dimple so the IR sensor (diode) could fit into it and give the same shielding effects as the onion paper did when used as a full hood. Just make sure you are using something translucent and NOT CLEAR like saran wrap or something. It should be somewhat like the onion paper.

Last edited by lightrunner : 09-25-2006 at 11:42 AM.
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Old 09-25-2006, 11:35 AM   #46
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I have mine on a stand under my tv i was about 17ft away and able to control it with a blanket over the remote. "completely covered"
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Old 09-25-2006, 11:58 AM   #47
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On my setup, one POSSIBLE reason it might work better is that I have another similar-sized component sitting directly on top of the S3 Tivo, the Samsung BluRay player. Perhaps just having another 3" tall component directly above the IR sensor with the screen a few inches further back is enough to shadow the IR sensor?

Or perhaps the smaller 42" Plasma are less of an issue, or the Samsungs are not causing the same level of interference.
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Old 09-25-2006, 12:06 PM   #48
MichaelK
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lightrunner
I have come up with a better alternative to the 'onion paper' hood. It just wasn't aesthetically pleasing. I figured the IR sensor had to be right behind the face plate as with most A/V components. So I decided to take my S3 apart and see if I could shield it some how without completely blocking it. Taking apart the S3 was very easy and the inside was very easy to work in. Removing the face plate was just as easy. Two screws at each upper corner, unplug the white ribbon cable from the main board than push back the three clips at the top holding the face plate to the main chassis and the face plate is off. There are 8 screws holding a green circuitry board on the back of the face plate. Once removed you will see the IR sensor on the other side of the circuitry board. It looks like a small black bulb that sits on a stand. You will also see a small square hole on the back of the face plate where the IR sensor extends into. I had to improvise since I could not use a piece of paper to sit flush across the hole which would block the IR sensor from extending through it. So I used GLAD Press and Seal by taking six 1.5 inch x 2 inch strips and covering the hole and creating a little dimple for the IR sensor. I put everything back to together and turned the S3 back on and viola it works perfectly and you CAN'T EVEN SEE IT. You might have to use more strips depending on how bright your plasma is or how much interference it produces. You could also use strips of those plastic grocery bags as long as there not clear but I didn't want to deal with tape. Here are the quick steps.

1. Unscrew the torque screws from the back of the Tivo S3 then remove the black cover of the S3
2. Unplug the white ribbon cable connecting the Face Plate to the main board. REMOVE FROM THE MAIN BOARD it just pulls right out of the connector. Just make sure you are pulling on it gently. Thread the ribbon back through the slit on the chassis when you remove the Face Plate.
3. Unscrew the two torque silver screws at the top of each right and left corners that fastens the face plate to the main chassis.
4. Gently lift up on the three black clips on top of the S3 holding the face plate to the main chassis. You will need to feel around for it but there's one in the center and two towards the left of the S3 if you are facing it. Just run your fingers along the top lip of the opening and you will feel it.
5. Once you have pulled apart the Face Plate unscrew the eight silver screws holding the circuitry board to the back of the Face Plate. Then GENTLY lift up on the green circuitry board. There are loose items underneath. They are easy to put back but just incase you don't want the hassle of searching and retrieving them off the floor.
6. Find the small square hole on the left close to where the input buttons are. Take 6 to 8 (depending on your plasma) 1.5 inches x 2.0 inches of GLAD Press and Seal fix them across the hole making sure to create a small dimple in the hole for the IR Sensor. I just pushed my pinky finger where the small hole was to create the dimple.
7. Gently place the green circuitry board back and screw it down to the back of the Face Plate.
8. Thread the white ribbon cable back through the small slit in the front of the main chassis and reattach the Face Plate to the main chassis. Clip the bottom of the Face Plate to the chassis first and the rest will snap right in with a firm push.
9. Screw the two torque screws back on for the Face plate then Insert the blue end of the white ribbon cable back in the black connector on the main board.
10. Screw the black hood back on.

Now your ready to connect your S3 back to your plasma or lcd and test the remote.

You know tivo could have a quick fix buy retrofitting a plastic hood that fits into the IR sensor hole. They could send it out to the less unfortunates like us to self install.

Here are some pictures of what I did. Just copy and paste the link in your URL address bar and hit enter.

http://public.fotki.com/lightrunner/tivo_remote_fix/

updated: sorry i had to post 5 times before i could add a url link.

BIG FAT WARNING

sounds like a great solution- but anyone trying it should be supper carefull to plug the white ribbon cable back in all the way.

On some older model tivo's if the ribbon cable wasn't seated proberly when the unit was powered up it burned something out and the unit would get screwed.

Might not be a probelm with the S3 but I'd hate to be the guy to confrim that it is still a problem.


here's the post about the older S2's
http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb...d.php?t=105719

Quote:
Originally Posted by weaknees
Hi--

(If you have already upgraded your HDVR2 or Series2 TiVo, this does not apply to you. Also, although we have referenced a potential power issue with the 230040, 240040 and 240080, this is NOT what we are writing about here.)

We don't mean to alarm anyone, but we have encountered a problem that can potentially cause permanent damage to your TiVo. This problem is easily avoided, and will only occur if you are not careful when upgrading your HDVR2 or Series2 TiVo.

The issue we raise below definitely applies to the HDVR2 and we have suspected this problem with the new-architecture Series2 standalone TiVos (230040, 240040 and 240080) as well.

Overview: When looking inside your TiVo, you will notice a white ribbon cable running from the front panel of the TiVo to the motherboard. It is a white ribbon cable that plugs directly into the motherboard.

Here's the WARNING: NEVER power-up your TiVo with this cable either slightly or completely removed from the motherboard. It must be firmly seated when you power up the TiVo.

Here's the reason: Doing so can permanently damage your TiVo. In some cases, the TiVo will power up but will not respond to the remote. In other cases, the TiVo will not power up at all (and will just click). With the HDVR2 and, potentially, the other Series2 TiVos, even if you later plug this cable back in, your TiVo still may not respond to your remote.

Therefore, when removing the power cable and IDE cable from your TiVo's factory hard drive, be VERY careful of this cable. Do not dislodge it. If you do dislodge it, just re-insert the cable before powering up.

We have been including a warning in our HDVR2 upgrade instructions and TwinBreeze bracket instructions, but thought that a bit of UPPER CASE might also help save a TiVo or two.

Good luck with your upgrade... and sorry for the alamist title.

Michael

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Old 09-25-2006, 12:13 PM   #49
lightrunner
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good note MichaelK since there were no pins or zif type clips, I had to make sure that the white ribbon cable was firmly inserted. Also I don't know how this would affect warranty but this procedure did not break any seals and if your careful with the torque screws you can't even tell the box was ever opened.
On another note maybe some of those people not having the same issue got their S3's from a different plant where they use slightly different fabrication methods. Or maybe the sensors are from different manufacturers or the green circuit board that it is attached to.
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Old 09-25-2006, 12:15 PM   #50
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Innerloop
On my setup, one POSSIBLE reason it might work better is that I have another similar-sized component sitting directly on top of the S3 Tivo, the Samsung BluRay player. Perhaps just having another 3" tall component directly above the IR sensor with the screen a few inches further back is enough to shadow the IR sensor?

Or perhaps the smaller 42" Plasma are less of an issue, or the Samsungs are not causing the same level of interference.
I have a 43" Pioneer plasma (PDP4340HD I think is the model) bolted on top of a 1-1 1/2" thick piece of wood on my stand, with the S3 underneath. I am having no remote issues whatsoever. So, smaller plasmas may not be as much of an issue, perhaps.
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Old 09-25-2006, 01:46 PM   #51
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i think brand name and model is the relevent thing- I have just a 37 inch lcd and that's enough to screw things up.
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Old 09-25-2006, 02:41 PM   #52
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Originally Posted by MichaelK
BIG FAT WARNING

sounds like a great solution- but anyone trying it should be supper carefull to plug the white ribbon cable back in all the way.

On some older model tivo's if the ribbon cable wasn't seated proberly when the unit was powered up it burned something out and the unit would get screwed.

Might not be a probelm with the S3 but I'd hate to be the guy to confrim that it is still a problem.


here's the post about the older S2's
http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb...d.php?t=105719
this post:
http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb...&&#post4412654

seems to indicate it's not an issue anymore, but i still wouldn't like to find out the hard way.

BAsically OP said unit got stuck at boot so he took it apart and plugged the cable back in and all was well.
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Old 09-25-2006, 04:17 PM   #53
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I havent hooked yet but all my equipment is in a cabinet and I use an IR distribution purchased ffrom a company like hometech.com.

I then make sure each led transmitter is attached to my various units DVD, Receiver, Tivo, VCR(???) and convered with black tape to prevent multiple IRs signal from coming in. I then connect the IR receiver to the side of the plasma. I then aim only at one spot and do not IR reflection causing multiple IR reflection signals from walls whatever hitting the sensors.
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Old 09-25-2006, 05:39 PM   #54
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Hmm, looks like I may need to pick up some baggies next time I go shopping...
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Old 09-25-2006, 06:08 PM   #55
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We have a Panasonic 50" plasma, and had the same remote control problem with the Series 3 box we received from TiVo. Returned that one, and bought another box at a local store, but it had the same problem.

BUT, after letting TiVo go through its setup (using the buttons on the front panel) and connecting to the service (using the phone line, because the network connection won't work - but that's another story!), the problem eventually went away! Well, not completely, but the remote control is probably 90%+ usable now.

I don't know if the box downloaded a software fix or not, but the main point is that there is hope -- your TiVo may fix itself if you complete the setup and let it get the initial downloads. Good luck!
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Old 09-25-2006, 07:06 PM   #56
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Instead of opening the box (hoping TiVo has a fix soon), I cut a 1x1 inch square from the vellum (onion paper) that was on top of the box, and taped it over the IR sensor (just to the left of the controls). If you take a flash light up to the front you can see the round opening in the plastice.

At least this looks better than draping the whole sheet across and I can see the clock and whats recording. Still a littlle ghetto looking considering we paid $1000 if you include the lifetime transfer.
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Old 09-25-2006, 09:15 PM   #57
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Lightrunner is a genius! I did the 6 strip fix and it works 100% perfect!

I was using the RF Blaster that Weaknees sells with a custom transmitter that covered the entire TiVo IR receiver area but it was only about 98% responsive. Now with the Glad 6 Strip Fix it works 100% with no blaster.

I have a 50" Panasonic Plasma and the S3 is located below it under a shelf. The only concern I have is that TiVo will release a software update that will reduce the sensitivity of the IR receiver and I will need to take it apart again to remove the Glad 6 Strip Fix.

As a side note one of the CC eject buttons is broken and when I had the box opened I found a small piece of metal that resembles a staple floating around inside. It came from the broken eject button. I have read that alot of people also have the broken button. You should all make sure that the staple looking thing is not floating around inside your S3 because there is no doubt that it will short something out!
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Old 09-25-2006, 10:28 PM   #58
RichB
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Join Date: Apr 2003
Location: Massachusetts
Posts: 494
I have the problem with my Panasonic 657UY Plasma.
The S2 right above it works much better.

Is the consensus that this is a design problem and not a manufacturing problem with some units?

I guess I have to call TiVo tomorrow.

- Rich
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Old 09-25-2006, 11:37 PM   #59
the0rus
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Join Date: Sep 2006
Posts: 6
OH MAN! lightrunners Glad seal worked! I was doubtful at first but it really works. It took me a little whiel to get around the box and had to reread teh directions a few times but once it was done I installed it back in entertainment unit and now its working 100%. and he's right you cant see it one bit not if you shine a liight up it. saves me the hassel on taking this back to bbuy. Tivo has my email they will follow up with a fix if there ever is one I hope. Your a GENIUS lightrunner! crazy what people come up with absolutely brilliant.
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Old 09-26-2006, 12:09 AM   #60
shootedit5
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Join Date: Sep 2006
Posts: 3
Are you fing serious? I just bought my plasma LG 50PY2DR to go with my new tivo. Now I am running into the same problem. Are you FING serious. %$@%@% ^$#&%$&* %&*$*%$&%^@#@(*^&
Found this post after scouring the web for help. Now I have to run to the store for some fing Glad Press Seal? this is insane! And I dont want to cover my Tivo either. I even bought a salamander rack for my av stuff where the tivo sits right on top. Moved the thing every where and still it doesnt work. GREAT!
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