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Old 09-13-2006, 10:56 AM   #121
MichaelK
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if it's like the HR10-250 you can deselct the SD subchannels, but there's no need to the box only records the stream from teh subchannel you picked in the season pass.

You might want to keep the SD subchannel to record SD programs (i.e. survivor)
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Old 09-13-2006, 10:58 AM   #122
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TiVoToo
Usually for HD recording, you would not be interested in recording the entire DT stream, only the HD channel in the stream.
The TiVo will only record the Channel selected to be recorded. It does not record the stream.

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Old 09-13-2006, 11:20 AM   #123
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MichaelK
MZ- FYI that's not generally correct.

Most stations transmit HD all the time on their HD channel even if it's just SD content. They upconvert it on their end to HD and send the HD amount of bits. There might be a small savings since there's less data to start with but there's not a major differnce recording Survivor (which is sd) then an hour long HD show recorded from a CBS-DT channel.
Really? That's not at all what I've seen. In the Chicago area, there's definitely a difference between SD programming and HD programming broadcast on the same OTA digital channel.

I have seen a couple of instances of this, but nothing widespread.
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Old 09-13-2006, 11:22 AM   #124
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So it looks like there is no way to transfer recordings from my S2 to a S3?
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Old 09-13-2006, 11:43 AM   #125
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hiker
So it looks like there is no way to transfer recordings from my S2 to a S3?
Nope. Not currently. Maybe some day?
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Old 09-13-2006, 11:47 AM   #126
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cheer
Really? That's not at all what I've seen. In the Chicago area, there's definitely a difference between SD programming and HD programming broadcast on the same OTA digital channel.

I have seen a couple of instances of this, but nothing widespread.

yup- there's threads about it at AVS.

Gnerally the station engineers are afraid to change the broadcast resolution on any one particular sub-channel. Apparently some Tuners dont handle changes in resolution on the fly so a vierwers screen would go blank until they changed the channel. And that is not acceptable.

They can use different resolutions on different subchannels and turn differnt sub channels on or off throughout the day (PBS does stuff like that alot were they might have X-1 be HD and X-2, x-3, x-4, x-5, x-6 are all SD. during primtime x-1, and x-2 might be active, but during the day x-1 would be off while all the rest might be on).

I would assume that upconverted 480 is easier to compress then 720p or 1080i since there is tons less info. But genreally the station will always send 720p or 1080i and becasue of that there is a much higher 'floor" for the bit rate then what would come from an SD cahnnel.
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Old 09-13-2006, 12:05 PM   #127
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Couple more questions:

Is there a way to setup the output to be 1080i for HD and 480i for SD? Or are the only hybrid options the ones with 480p for SD? I only ask because my old tube HDTV doesn't really like 480p.

Also, hows the speed of the TiVo's guides and channel surfing. Though the various Moto and SA boxes are lacking in the DVR dept, their channel changing and guides are usually an order of magnitude faster then on the Series2.
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Old 09-13-2006, 12:15 PM   #128
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For terrestrial broadcast, the transport stream is a constant 19.28Mb/s regardless of number of subchannels, whether HD or SD, or video compression. If payload is less than 19.28Mb/s, null packets are added to keep bit rate constant. It would be nice if the S3 would drop the null packets when recording as it would make the file sizes smaller, but I doubt that it does.
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Old 09-13-2006, 12:16 PM   #129
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RE: transfer recordings from my S2 to a S3

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fofer
Nope. Not currently. Maybe some day?
Wouldn't this work - use the coax output of S2 to coax input of S3 and set save to vcr on S2 and manual record on S3? It may not be the best quality video if this would work but it's better than losing the recordings.
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Old 09-13-2006, 12:22 PM   #130
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hiker
Wouldn't this work - use the coax output of S2 to coax input of S3 and set save to vcr on S2 and manual record on S3? It may not be the best quality video if this would work but it's better than losing the recordings.
And what would these "manually inserted" recordings be labeled as?

Ouch. No thanks.
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Old 09-13-2006, 12:35 PM   #131
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Quote:
Originally Posted by danottey
Though I must admit that I am bummed about no TiVoToGo functionality in the S3. I just have a feeling that it will be offered as a software upgrade, but I do agree I shouldn't base my purchase on that possibility.

The S3 has only one coax input. Does it still record two shows at once? Is this true even if I have no Cablecards AT ALL? I saw reference that if only one cablecard is inserted, the entire box changes to single tuner mode. That didn't make sense to me. But I want to be sure that if I have no Cablecards, I will be able to have dual SD tuners from the single coax cable.
Yes & yes.

However, if you do not have digital cable or HDTV, your best bet is to buy the much less expensive Series 2 DT (dual tuner). It is standard definition and able to record two analog RF channels simultaneously.

Additionally, the DT is capable of performing TiVoToGo right now.
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Old 09-13-2006, 12:54 PM   #132
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Megazone,
How is the quality of the up-converting of SD content to 480p?

Most of the quality TV programming we are getting these days is SD. I have been kicking around getting a upconverting receiver (HK 745) or a dedicated unit. The S3 would fit the bill.
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Old 09-13-2006, 12:57 PM   #133
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PIP Support???

I am new to the Tivo universe, so excuse my ignorance. Since the S3 has dual tuners, does it have any support for PIP or Picture in Picture?

I have been waiting for the S3 ever since I got an HD TV, but I am seriously bummed, as I really wanted the TivoToGo. I spend a lot of time in airplanes, I find that watching TV shows on my laptop that I recorded on my MS Media Center PC is a great way to kill time when sitting for extended periods of time at elevations > 30k'! Of course I can't record encrypted or HD content from cable w/ my Media Center PC.

Last edited by ericholst : 09-13-2006 at 12:59 PM. Reason: Typo
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Old 09-13-2006, 01:05 PM   #134
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bobharp
Megazone,
How is the quality of the up-converting of SD content to 480p?

Most of the quality TV programming we are getting these days is SD. I have been kicking around getting a upconverting receiver (HK 745) or a dedicated unit. The S3 would fit the bill.

Most of the quality TV I get is HD. Discovery, ESPN, and the major networks.

I'm not megazone, but I will tell you SD content looks decent enough. I'll also tell you I'm running SD 4:3 letterboxed. I think this has more to do with my TV than with the S3 though. For example, my TV does a good job display SD in general and stretching 4:3 to 16:9 - it's less noticeable than the TiVo.
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Old 09-13-2006, 01:05 PM   #135
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ecopoesis
Couple more questions:

Is there a way to setup the output to be 1080i for HD and 480i for SD? Or are the only hybrid options the ones with 480p for SD? I only ask because my old tube HDTV doesn't really like 480p.

Also, hows the speed of the TiVo's guides and channel surfing. Though the various Moto and SA boxes are lacking in the DVR dept, their channel changing and guides are usually an order of magnitude faster then on the Series2.

As I understand it, you would want to set the S3 to output in native mode. Anything coming in will be sent out in it's native resolution (480i, 720p or 1080i).

Interesting comment about the channel changing and speeds. I always thought my Motorola was lightyears slower than my Tivo (which has sat unused for almost 2 years).
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Old 09-13-2006, 01:11 PM   #136
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? on Recording OTA-HD and Cable HD programs simultaneously

Iím a little confused on the asymmetrical/symmetrical modes using cablecards in the Series 3 and the ability to record from two, different input sources simultaneously.

Hereís the excerpt from TiVoLoverís outstanding review (thanks!)

Quote:
There is another 'gotcha' which may catch users unaware. You really need to use no CableCARDs or two (or a single Multi-Stream card). Why? Because the S3 cannot operate in an asymmetric mode, like the S2DT. If you insert only one (single-stream) CableCARD, then the entire unit reverts to single tuner operation. That means you lose the dual-tuner capabilities for antenna and analog cable, not just digital cable. With no CableCARDs installed you have dual-tuner operation for antenna and analog cable, two CableCARDs gives you dual-tuner digital cable.
Am I taking this too literally or does installing two cablecards mean that you can still record a digital and OTA program at the same time?
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Old 09-13-2006, 01:11 PM   #137
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Quote:
Originally Posted by talmania
As I understand it, you would want to set the S3 to output in native mode. Anything coming in will be sent out in it's native resolution (480i, 720p or 1080i).
My TV doesn't natively handle 720p, so I'm using 1080i hybrid or fixed.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ecopoesis
Also, hows the speed of the TiVo's guides and channel surfing. Though the various Moto and SA boxes are lacking in the DVR dept, their channel changing and guides are usually an order of magnitude faster then on the Series2.
I think the 6412 is still faster, however since you have to waste so much time with extra button clicks through thousands of menus, it probably all works out in the end.

Quote:
Originally Posted by PDT816
Am I taking this too literally or does installing two cablecards mean that you can still record a digital and OTA program at the same time?
Hm, I'm not sure. If no one answers before I get home tonight I'll try it out and report back if I remember.

Last edited by davezatz : 09-14-2006 at 06:48 AM.
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Old 09-13-2006, 01:15 PM   #138
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Suggestion for addition:

What should I do if my cable company insists I can't use a cable card in anything other than a TV?

All major cable companies (MSOs) are required by the FCC's 'Plug-and-Play' order to provide CableCARDs to any customer using any UDCR (Uni-Directional Cable Receiver) device on CableLabs list of certified, verified or self- verified cable products.

The TiVo Series3 HD DVR product is on this list, which can be found here:

http://www.cablelabs.com/udcp/downloads/OC_PNP.pdf

If this doesn't help, report it to Tivo using this form:

http://www.tivo.com/series3hdDvr_cc.asp

(primary text from a TivoJerry post)
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Old 09-13-2006, 01:15 PM   #139
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Digital audio on analog channels

Does anyone know if the digital audio port will output a digital audio signal on an analog cable channel? In other words, does it convert the analog audio signal to digital (PCM for example)? Or is the digital audio output dead when you are tuned to an analog channel?
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Old 09-13-2006, 01:21 PM   #140
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Quote:
Originally Posted by davezatz
Most of the quality TV I get is HD. Discovery, ESPN, and the major networks.

I'm not megazone, but I will tell you SD content looks decent enough. I'll also tell you I'm running SD 4:3 letterboxed. I think this has more to do with my TV than with the S3 though. For example, my TV does a good job display SD in general and stretching 4:3 to 16:9 - it's less noticeable than the TiVo.
Thanks Dave.
I'm a local washintonian as well. I've have a Hitachi 42" plasma that does a really good job with SD content. My S2 is attached via s-video now. Do you have Comcast Montgomery?
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Old 09-13-2006, 01:32 PM   #141
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Quote:
Originally Posted by davezatz
Most of the quality TV I get is HD. Discovery, ESPN, and the major networks. I'm not megazone, but I will tell you SD content looks decent enough.
Keep in mind that if you have a recent high-definition TV, it may very well have a better scaler than any third-party box, the S3 Tivo included. For example, I have a 50" Panasonic plasma, and it does an awesome job displaying SD (480i) content, so I don't let my HR10-250 Tivo do the upconversion--instead, I switch the Tivo to 480i output when I watch SD stuff, and let the TV to the upconversion. Most higher-end Sony and Pioneer TVs have great scalers, too.

Each time you scale, you mess with the image, and lose something... I have a friend who was watching SD (480i) content recorded on his HR10-250, but the Tivo was set to upconvert everything to 720p. The 720p output from the Tivo was routed to his Yamaha AV receiver, that had a Faroudja scaler that was set to upconvert everything to 1080i, which was then fed to a Samsung plasma that had a native resolution of 1366x768, so it internally scaled everything to 768p.

480i -> 720p -> 1080i -> 768p = really, really ugly...

It's best to feed the original signal through all the way to the TV, unless your TV's built-in scaler sucks, and you have a really, really expensive external scaler. For S3 users, this means the "Native" mode will likely give you the best picture quality, IMHO.

My 2 cents.
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Old 09-13-2006, 01:33 PM   #142
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hiker
Wouldn't this work - use the coax output of S2 to coax input of S3 and set save to vcr on S2 and manual record on S3? It may not be the best quality
It would be HORRIBLE. You would be much better off spending $100 on a cheap DVD recorder and dumping them to DVD-R.
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Old 09-13-2006, 01:34 PM   #143
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PDT816
Am I taking this too literally or does installing two cablecards mean that you can still record a digital and OTA program at the same time?
For it to record two things from any source, it needs:
  • No Cablecards
  • Two single stream Cablecards
  • One Multistream Cablecard.
One single stream Cablecard would allow it to record only one channel at a time from any source.

Having a cablecard (or two) doesn't disable OTA reception/recording.
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Old 09-13-2006, 01:36 PM   #144
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PDT816
Iím a little confused on the asymmetrical/symmetrical modes using cablecards in the Series 3 and the ability to record from two, different input sources simultaneously.
The Series 3 is fully dual-tuner capable with only one exception--when a single, single-stream cableCARD is installed. In any other configuration it's capable of recording any combination of any two sources.

This issue will be moot in a month or two when multi-stream cableCARDs are available. At that point there'll be no reason to get a single, single-stream card.
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Old 09-13-2006, 01:38 PM   #145
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bobharp
Thanks Dave.
I'm a local washintonian as well. I've have a Hitachi 42" plasma that does a really good job with SD content. My S2 is attached via s-video now. Do you have Comcast Montgomery?
I do indeed. Trying to get the CableCARDs and my account set up properly was a big investment in time and an exercise in patience, which I don't have a whole lot of.

Quote:
Originally Posted by the_bode
It's best to feed the original signal through all the way to the TV, unless your TV's built-in scaler sucks, and you have a really, really expensive external scaler. For S3 users, this means the "Native" mode will likely give you the best picture quality, IMHO.
I completely agree. If my CRT handled 720p input, I'd go native. I also have my LG Tuner/Upscaling DVD box output in 1080i. Before the S3 was in the mix, I'd us the LG for HD and ran analog cable direct into the TV and let it's scaler do the work.
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Old 09-13-2006, 01:49 PM   #146
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Dave,
Comcast told me that I could not have my HD STB (Mot 6200) and a CC at the same time. It would not work. You have to love them. The bad service and attitudes has to be standard company policy.
Comcast, one of the many companies as screwed up as the government.

Have you ever checked out Don (expect) Libes' blog?
Why I love Comcast, Verizon, the FCC, and everyone else.

He loves everyone.
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Old 09-13-2006, 01:51 PM   #147
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Thank you for the information on the duel ccards.
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Old 09-13-2006, 01:52 PM   #148
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Confused about 2 tuners

I have been out of town during the anouncement and my eyes are hurting from trying to read everything that has been happening over the last few days.

I have a Series 2 with lifetime, so I'm trying to decide whether to upgrade to a Series 3 since I intend to purchase an HDTV later this year.

Everything I read about the S3 having 2 tuners only talks about recording 2 shows at once. Nothing mentions being able to watch Live TV while recording one show. Is this possible? I know it would be possible using splitters or a cable box on an alternative input, but my wife will not switch inputs to watch something.

I saw nothing mentioned about this issue in the FAQ and I would think this would be a popular feature. I rarely want to record 2 shows at the same time, but often want to watch 'live TV' while Tivo is recording.
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Old 09-13-2006, 02:00 PM   #149
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Yes, it's possible. You could even watch two Live TV programs at the same time...

...but I have to ask: if you have a TiVo, why do you watch Live TV?
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Old 09-13-2006, 02:11 PM   #150
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Quote:
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...but I have to ask: if you have a TiVo, why do you watch Live TV?
We rarely watch live TV, but there are times we want to watch some news before going to bed and Tivo is recording something.
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