New Tivo Price Plans - No More Lifetime + Responses to Summary

[HDTiVo]

Originally Posted by MickeS

What are you talking about? Lifetime is not dead - it's just that they changed the definition again, it now means "Pay monthly for the life of the unit."

Provided you call to alert them to the demise of such unit...

[Dan Clarke]

Originally Posted by TiVoPony

Dan, I know there's been a lot of discussion here, but TiVo does continue to offer a multi-service discount. It's just not available for plans where we give you the hardware for free. If you opt to get the hardware for free, the MSD does not apply to that box - it's ineligible for the term of the contract.

Bundled plan boxes can however be used as the qualifying box to enable a non-bundled box to receive the MSD.

Pony

TivoPony, that is EXCELLENT news. I misunderstood the press release. So, if a Series 3 comes out, I can either pay a 'subsidized price' for a contracted term with no MSD, or pay 'full' price for a Series 3 but get a MSD?

That makes me feel much, much better. And in that case, hurry up with the Series 3 so I can get rid of this cable DVR!

[dgh]

Originally Posted by TiVoOpsMgr

I do know that many of my friends and family who could not previously afford a box will soon be able to get an 80-hour unit for no upfront cost and a monthly fee that starts at $16.95.

This sounds like the commercials for the "rent to own" shops. They're aimed at the people with the least money, but they end up being the most expensive way to buy things.

[ThreeSoFar]

Originally Posted by Dan Clarke

TivoPony, that is EXCELLENT news. I misunderstood the press release. So, if a Series 3 comes out, I can either pay a 'subsidized price' for a contracted term with no MSD, or pay 'full' price for a Series 3 but get a MSD?

That makes me feel much, much better. And in that case, hurry up with the Series 3 so I can get rid of this cable DVR!

Well...you're assuming you will even be able to buy a unit that way in the future.

[bryan314]

Originally Posted by lajohn27

Few in this thread can argue that Lifetime was an incredibly good deal at $299... perhaps *too* good a deal.. so...

A terribly evil thought just crossed my mind ....

Plan For Lifetime Service:

- remove lifetime service and call it too costly

- people go nuts complaining

- bring it back at a much higher price

- everyone is so happy its back, they don't complain nearly as much about the price going up


Hey, I can dream right?

Not totally illogical. Series 2 is at the end of the product cycle. Tivo is probably ramping down production in anticipation of series 3 later this year. It may be that they didn't want to get stuck with a bunch of lifetimes on a product they wouldn't be making in a few months. With a 3 to 4 year life on a unit, that's a long time to support a discontinued product. I wouldn't be surprised it 'lifetime at a higher price' reappeared for the series 3.

Well, one can hope anyways.

[TiVoPony]

Originally Posted by BobCamp1

The date is that because Tivo didn't make it clear initially that lifetime was tied to the unit, not the person. When they did make it clear on January 21, 2000, people got angry. So Tivo got involved in a class-action lawsuit, and this was the settlement.

I have to step in here. This is completely untrue.

TiVo was never sued, there was no class-action lawsuit, and there was no settlement. That is all completely wrong.

Lifetime service has always been tied to the life of the product, not to that of the subscriber. Because a few people expressed confusion about this we made our language crystal clear in January of 2000. At that time we announced that anyone who had purchased lifetime prior to that date would be eligible for a one-time product lifetime transfer. This was done as a completely voluntary good deed by our company, not because anybody threatened us with legal action (let alone sued us).

We're good guys, and it's disappointing to see history twisted in this manner.

Cheers,
Pony

[jfh3]

Originally Posted by TiVoPony

No, if you're honestly confused, by my comments, I apologize and will try to clarify.

We have not raised prices. If you have a box, and want to subscribe, it's the exact same deal as before - $12.95/mo with a one year commit. If you want a free box, then you pay a higher monthly service fee.

Pony,

All may be true, but the press doesn't understand it either (see the recent Fortune article that essentially says that all Tivo did was raise prices.

Not that Fortune has ever been kind to Tivo, but there just one example of the mainstream press that "doesn't get it" either.

Please ask your IR folks to do some education PDQ.

[VOLFAN]

Originally Posted by Dan Clarke

TivoPony, that is EXCELLENT news. I misunderstood the press release. So, if a Series 3 comes out, I can either pay a 'subsidized price' for a contracted term with no MSD, or pay 'full' price for a Series 3 but get a MSD?

That makes me feel much, much better. And in that case, hurry up with the Series 3 so I can get rid of this cable DVR!

TivoPony:

Care to confirm if this is true or not... MSD and full price for Series 3?

I currently have a Series 2 w/ Lifetime and would really like to know if the above is true. If so, I concur - hurry up with the Series 3.

Thanks for your input and help! It's really nice to see Tivo employees participating so regurlarly.

<><

[mattack]

Originally Posted by BobCamp1

Yes, anyone who activated their Tivo after Jan 20, 2000 has the lifetime subsciption permanently tied to to unit. When the unit dies, your subscription goes bye-bye.

You're completely ignoring the possibility of getting the unit replaced or repaired by Tivo or through official channels. People have said that they have gotten lifetime subscription transferred when their old broken Tivo was replaced instead of being repaired.

What you *can't* do is simply go out and buy a new Tivo and tranfer the lifetime to that.

[mattack]

Originally Posted by murgatroyd

I don't see how I can buy a TiVo as a gift for anyone in my family unless I put the box on my account and pay the bill. "Here's this great gift, but oh, yeah, there's a monthly bill attached!"

Note, I continue to be one of those who thinks lifetime going away is a bad idea, and it has cast very much doubt on the idea of me getting series 3s..

But to refute your point -- you could still get them the 3 year (for example) prepaid subscription-that-comes-with-the-box.

Yes, at the end of the 3 years, then they'd have to pay. But it's sort of like getting someone a magazine subscription as a gift.. If they want the magazine subscription after the one you bought runs out, then they have to pay for the new subscription themselves.

(again, I still want lifetime back, even if it were at a greatly increased price.)

[tazzftw]

Exactly. I don't recall giving a TiVo with lifetime being the only option.

[lajohn27]

Originally Posted by TiVoPony

I have to step in here. This is completely untrue.

TiVo was never sued, there was no class-action lawsuit, and there was no settlement. That is all completely wrong.

...(snip) This was done as a completely voluntary good deed by our company, not because anybody threatened us with legal action (let alone sued us).

We're good guys, and it's disappointing to see history twisted in this manner.

Cheers,
Pony

See.. Pony's explanation is exactly how I remember it - but I wasn't 1000% sure some jerk hadn't threatened with a lawyer.

Thanks for the clarification Pony - most of us remember it as it happened. (see my post prior to the one you quoted)

J

[DevilDogs]

Originally Posted by dswallow

FAQ= Frequently Asked Questions

Somebody's gotta be the first to ask.

Yes, that was my point. We shouldn't have had to ask these questions. If they had done that much research, surely they knew people would be up in arms over it, and have lots of questions. Besides, the *way* it was announced is what I have a problem with.

Product lifetime is going away. We're announcing 3 new pricing structures. Good luck!

C'mon, how about a little more info than that. When your doing changes as massive as this, a short press release isn't good enough. There should have been a web page set up *by Tivo* (not by outside forums), listing more info.

I don't mean to go off, I've just come to expect more from Tivo.

[DevilDogs]

Originally Posted by BobCamp1

Yes, anyone who activated their Tivo after Jan 20, 2000 has the lifetime subsciption permanently tied to to unit. When the unit dies, your subscription goes bye-bye. The date is that because Tivo didn't make it clear initially that lifetime was tied to the unit, not the person. When they did make it clear on January 21, 2000, people got angry. So Tivo got involved in a class-action lawsuit, and this was the settlement.

Oh yeah, I forgot about that being date. Still, I swear I saw some place that said if you had your Tivo replaced by an official Tivo representative (or something to that effect), you could transfer your lifetime service. This makes it sound like I can't since my Tivo was activated in 2002.

[TiVoPony]

Originally Posted by lajohn27

Thanks for the clarification Pony - most of us remember it as it happened. (see my post prior to the one you quoted)

J

Appreciate the support, but I think you're probably wrong about 'most of us' remembering it as it happened. Most people here probably hadn't even heard of TiVo back in January of 2000.

That's the danger of posts like the one that I quoted. There are a lot of people who would never know any better, and would believe what they read.

I'm glad you remember though. We do try to do the right thing!

Cheers,
Pony

[tbeckner]

Originally Posted by DevilDogs

Yes, that was my point. We shouldn't have had to ask these questions. If they had done that much research, surely they knew people would be up in arms over it, and have lots of questions. Besides, the *way* it was announced is what I have a problem with.

Product lifetime is going away. We're announcing 3 new pricing structures. Good luck!

C'mon, how about a little more info than that. When your doing changes as massive as this, a short press release isn't good enough. There should have been a web page set up *by Tivo* (not by outside forums), listing more info.

I don't mean to go off, I've just come to expect more from Tivo.

The press release is on their site and is more than one line long. I never got anything from DirecTV about the lease plan or the price increase, nothing. Go figure. It must be the new NON-COMMUNICATIONS of the new corporations. In the case of TiVo, it only applies to new customers, but in the case of DirecTV it applies to everyone who has a subscription, which are all DirecTV customers, all 15+ million. And to top it off, DirecTV has been around seven years or so longer than TiVo. You would have thought they would have learned?

Not to let TiVo off the hook, but since it only applies to new customers and is only a financing scheme, why would they send it out to existing customers. I would say, change the TiVo web site and let it go.

[DevilDogs]

Originally Posted by cwoody222

1. I don't think that was EVER the case. Unless your S1 is still under warranty (it's not) or you bought it before the grandfather date in 2000 in which case you can transfer it to any other unit for any other reason - ONE TIME. Otherwise, if your unit goes belly up, you're out the lifetime fee; sorry.

I swear I saw some place that if replaced by a Tivo approved company, it could be transferred, even after the grandfather date.

[TiVoPony]

Originally Posted by DevilDogs

When your doing changes as massive as this, a short press release isn't good enough. There should have been a web page set up *by Tivo* (not by outside forums), listing more info.

I don't mean to go off, I've just come to expect more from Tivo.

We agree, a press release isn't enough. The tivo.com website will be updated with all of the details, including a FAQ, when the new pricing plans start next week.

We could have just given you that answer - check back next week on tivo.com for the details - a lot of companies would.

Instead we're here, answering questions before the plans are officially available.

We'll apologize if you're not satisfied, but please don't take our participation here, or the information we share, for granted.

Thanks,
Pony

[Electronut]

Personally I think the new TiVo sub pricing plans are a joke. Why wouldn't anyone want to pay $300 up front for LIFETIME service as opposed to high monthly charges?

Do the math folks. Tivo is going to make more money out of this. How is this better for customers? Most of us that have Tivo's are looking to always stay subbed.

The price for a TiVo box and a one-year service commitment is $19.95 a month or $224 prepaid
The price for a TiVo box and a two-year service commitment is $18.95 a month or $369 prepaid
The price for a TiVo box and a three-year service commitment is $16.95 a month or $469 prepaid

Think about it. Your paying a monthly fee for as long as you want to be subbed. That's nuts! Take the 3 year service @ $469 x next 30 years (10 terms) and that's $4690!!! I picked 30 years for a random number since I'm 37. Hmmm..... should I go with that or a lifetime sub at $300? If you don't prepay the $495 up front then your looking at even worse numbers at $16.95 per month. $16.95 x 30 years (360 months) = $6102..Yikes!

TiVo just lost any opportunity to get more business out of me. Have my lifetime S2 but that looks like all I will have with them. I really don't see how this is a good thing at all. Anyone that is cost conscious and knows what Tivo had in place with original $300 lifetime cost I can't see doing this. They should be giving out the Tivo hardware practically for free with the money they will be cranking out with these new sub plans. Come on TiVo!!!! Getting just a little money hungry are you?

[TiVoPony]

Originally Posted by VOLFAN

TivoPony:

Care to confirm if this is true or not... MSD and full price for Series 3?

I currently have a Series 2 w/ Lifetime and would really like to know if the above is true. If so, I concur - hurry up with the Series 3.

Thanks for your input and help! It's really nice to see Tivo employees participating so regurlarly.

<><

I'm going to have to ask Stephen to look at this one. I'll admit when I just don't know.

Pony

[TiVoPony]

Originally Posted by Electronut

They should be giving out the Tivo hardware practically for free with the money they will be cranking out with these new sub plans. Come on TiVo!!!! Getting just a little money hungry are you?

Electronut, no disrespect intended, but I believe you've confused our company with Exxon. TiVo didn't make $36 Billion dollars in profit last year.

If your hypothesis is that Lifetime was a better deal, you're right. Nobody disputes that. But it was *too good* of a deal. It won't be offered going forward.

I'm sorry if that disturbs you. But we want to be around years from now to provide service to all of our customers, including those that have purchased Lifetime.

Cheers,
Pony

[TiVoPony]

Originally Posted by DevilDogs

I swear I saw some place that if replaced by a Tivo approved company, it could be transferred, even after the grandfather date.

Taken from the new pricing summary posted as a sticky at the top of the Coffee House:

Q. Can I transfer my Product Lifetime service contract to new hardware?

A. For Product Lifetime, the answer is no, just like today. This isn't really part of our announcement and the rules haven't changed, but since this is a frequently asked question I'm including it here. Product Lifetime is always tied to the specific box that you activated, as defined in the terms of the Product Lifetime Description: http://www.tivo.com/0.4.asp

There are only four exceptions:

1. 30-day money back guarantee: During the first 30 days after you activate your Product Lifetime service, you can transfer freely from one unit to another.
2. Grandfather transfer: The one-time "Grandfather transfer" (for people who purchased Product Lifetime on or before January 21, 2000 [as in, more than six years ago], and who have not already used their one-time transfer) is still allowed and will also be honored for future hardware releases from TiVo, such as the Series3. If you have any trouble when you call, please mention KDB code 09-07-04 to the agent.
3. Authorized warranty replacement:In the event that a unit with Product Lifetime malfunctions, you can opt to have it repaired under warranty by the manufacturer. If the manufacturer (whether it's TiVo, Humax, Sony, etc.) cannot repair the unit and opts to replace it, we will transfer the Product Lifetime service to the new unit. In most cases this happens automatically. If not, you can usually make the change yourself in Manage My Account or by calling customer support.
4. Extended warranty through a retailer: As a courtesy, TiVo will usually allow a Product Lifetime service transfer in the case that you purchased an extended warranty from a retailer, and the retailer was not able to repair the unit and instead replaced it with an equivalent unit under the terms of their extended warranty program. Note that customer support might ask to see evidence of the extended warranty agreement.

Pony

[megazone]

Originally Posted by ALooneyGuy

Exactly! They think they can make more money by forcing you to keep paying but what is more likely is that folks will just turn to their cable/satellite provider for their digital recording needs.

The facts support TiVo's move. The large majority of TiVo subscribers are NOT lifetime, but monthly. And when they trialed these new pricing plans last year, sales went *up*.

These pricing plans weren't whipped up on a whiim, they did tests and research, and all of it was overwhelmingly positive - which is why we have the change.

Will some people be upset? Sure. Heck, I'm not thrilled - I'd love to still have lifetime, even if it were $599. Will some people dump their TiVos. Sure. But the overall result for TiVo should be positive based on history. They can't make everyone happy, but the thought that people are going to turn away from TiVo in droves over this is laughable in light of the facts.

[megazone]

Originally Posted by HDTiVo

"There he goes again..."

I have already PROVEN in multiple ways in your thread that Lifetime WAS PROFITABLE for TiVo as it was...

Yes, there you go again. ;-) You did no such thing. You leave out important facts to make your claims. I already showed this in my comments to your posts the first time so I'm not going to bother again. The short version is you leave out costs and you don't seem to understand the different between an operational profit and an overal profit. Being operationally profitable doesn't make a company profitable, you can still tank and go bankrupt by losing money overall despite and operational profit. Your 11-year example is utter bunk because you magically null the SAC TiVo experienced making selling that unit in the first place. The unit changing hands is meaningless misdirection.

Saying all they need to do is add 450,000 more subs is assinine. All Irridium needed to do was add a few million more subs to avoid their bankruptcy too! What idiots for not going so! Right...

From past threads you don't seem to grasp SAC - Subscriber Acquisition Cost. If you look at their most recent quarterly presentation you'll see that the periods when they've driven higher net sub adds coincide with periods of higher SAC. Simply, to accelerate subscription growth you can spend more money on marketing, rebates, subsidies, retail promotions, etc. But all of those increase the cost - you're 'buying a customer' - and directly cut into the profit margin on that customer. During some periods SAC has been so high that they see no profit on lifetime, and potentially a loss.

Trying to accelerate subscriptions would mean costs go up, which means they'd need even *more* subscriptions to cover the loss of margin. And you get into a race. Costs can rise enough to make it unprofitable to continue.

You need to find the balance that is sustainable, which is what TiVo is attempting to do. I'm sure that if they could wave a magic wand and add 450,000 more subs and suddenly become profitable, they would. But the world doesn't work that way.

[TheSlyBear]

Tivo is going to make more money out of this. How is this better for customers?

By staying in business perhaps?

[stormy not dead]

I'm fine with the convoluted new pricing. I would prefer it to have been a charge added on top of service fees, but whatever. I'm even fine (if personally saddened) with no more lifetime options - it was such a steal I did it twice (one's been subbed for five years, another for three).

What I'm not fine with is the customer having to call at the end of the rate period and ask to be switched to the lower plan. TiVo knows when they signed up, and at what rate, and could just automatically switch them over to service-only plans, barring any action from the customer towards annual pre-payment. I'm sure the numbers have been crunched, and there will be a significant portion of people who will never call for the lower rate, or who will not get around to it immediately, especially if TiVo is not reminding them of it. It's just not cool to me, though.

[DCIFRTHS]

Originally Posted by TiVoPony

.... Most people here probably hadn't even heard of TiVo back in January of 2000. ....
Cheers,
Pony

I had heard of TiVo, and I was here too. The problem is that I can't even remember what happened yesterday

[megazone]

Originally Posted by plowsterbabe

To me, this type of model makes sense. I have a Mac that happily runs 10.3. I can pay the upgrade to 10.4 if I want to, but on that particular machine, there's no pressing need.

Apples and oranges. Apple sells you the OS. After that there is no ongoing cost to them for you to continue using it.

TiVo sells a *service*. It costs them to provide that service. It doesn't matter if you never receive another software update or not, it still costs them to provide the service the box needs to run.

They are entirely different models, which is why the OS pricing model does NOT work for TiVo.

TiVo is like other services - cell phone, cable, ISP, etc.

[cwerdna]

Originally Posted by Electronut

Personally I think the new TiVo sub pricing plans are a joke. Why wouldn't anyone want to pay $300 up front for LIFETIME service as opposed to high monthly charges?
...

TiVo just lost any opportunity to get more business out of me. Have my lifetime S2 but that looks like all I will have with them. I really don't see how this is a good thing at all. Anyone that is cost conscious and knows what Tivo had in place with original $300 lifetime cost I can't see doing this. They should be giving out the Tivo hardware practically for free with the money they will be cranking out with these new sub plans. Come on TiVo!!!! Getting just a little money hungry are you?

I agree that lifetime is a great deal and agree w/Pony's reply. Both my standalones have lifetime and I'm about to activate a third w/lifetime.

While I'm very unhappy about the changes (expressed it earlier already) and am not sure that this is right move for them, it sounds like you haven't read their financials. If memory serves, they've lost money EVERY quarter except one (see http://investor.tivo.com/ReleaseDeta...leaseID=172095, http://finance.yahoo.com/q/is?s=TIVO and http://investor.tivo.com/ReleaseDeta...leaseID=189823). They are NOT greedy. BTW, please don't get into stock talk which is prohibited on here.

I really want Tivo to survive and if they think this is going to help them achieve that, so be it. It makes it a tougher sell for me, but oh well.

[megazone]

Originally Posted by istvo4me

Okay, I'm all confused. I was planning on getting TiVo pretty soon but because of these new changes, I'm a little hesitant. This is the way I see it:

Option 1:
Buy Box from CompUSA = $29.99
Service Only Pricing: $12.95 x 1 Year = $155.40
TOTAL = $185.39

Option 2:
Bundled Pricing: $19.95 x 1 Year = $239.40

Option 3:
Bundled Pricing: Box and Service for 1 Year = $224.00

Now tell me, why would I go for the new pricing structure (Option 2 and 3) as I'm only looking 1 year ahead? Am I missing something here? Isn't Option 1 still the best?

First - is that CompUSA unit a 40-hour unit or an 80-hour unit? Note that the TiVo pricing is on 80-hour units.

Second, the CompUSA pricing is after rebates, which are a special promotion. The rebates are for a limited time. Yes, it is the better deal, no question, but that's the nature of retail promotions - they're better deals, for a limited time. There have been even better deals - units free after rebate - in the past. And there will probably be special offers in the future too. Such is life.