Macrovision BS?

[MickeS]

Here's what I don't get... they say they have to have the Macrovision license to keep TTG and DVD burning - but doesn't the Macrovision copy protection, when implemented, PREVENT these things? Or am I missing something here?

/Mike

[ZeoTiVo]

Originally Posted by Y-ASK

Come on Zeo. Stop with all the semantices BS... It's easier to say broadcasters than to say "the folks who put the flag in the video stream" whether it be the content providers or broadcasters. You know exactly what I mean. Tivo gave control to another group who puts the flag in the video stream.

This is one area, even though it has been discussed before, that you still stick up for Tivo and I don't think you should. There is no legal reason nor is Tivo being forced to have their devices react to Macrovision Flags. If you know different then let's hear it and please point to your sources.

Y-ASK

TiVo did not give the content providers control to put in the macrovision bits either. The legal system and busines law did. The license you agreed to by getting HBO, or ordering PPV gave them the right to. in short we gave the content providers the right.

TiVo had a choice to play along or go up against macrovision. consdiering TiVo is not a big conglomerate and has no money to throw around, the choice was obvious for TiVo. I never said their was any legal reason I just implied legal coercion.

so I ask again to anybody

what would you have TiVo do differently ?

[dt_dc]

Originally Posted by MickeS

Here's what I don't get... they say they have to have the Macrovision license to keep TTG and DVD burning - but doesn't the Macrovision copy protection, when implemented, PREVENT these things? Or am I missing something here?

That's the point ...

A feature like TTG or DVD burning may expose Tivo to a copyright lawsuit from studios. By respecting flags that can disable these features ... Tivo can simply say to the studios "if you don't want your stuff burned to DVD simply mark it appropriately ... it's on you not on us". End of lawsuit.

[Y-ASK]

Originally Posted by ZeoTiVo

what would you have TiVo do differently ?

I would have them setup every standalone Tivo that records an analog signal (ala capture card method) to ignore the Macrovision flags on everything it records. Macrovision is embedded in the signal now with no video corruption (unless you run it through your VCR). Just have the box ignore it.

Does anyone think Tivo would be sued if they did this. I mean hell they've been doing it for how long now? It's only been recently that they implemented the box reacting to the flags.

Y-ASK

[mearlus]

Have an 'easter egg' that ignores macrovision

I agree, they were given a choice. But not a real choice, pretty much a "agree to this" or shutdown shop and give up.

An easter egg would be cool though

Originally Posted by ZeoTiVo

TiVo did not give the content providers control to put in the macrovision bits either. The legal system and busines law did. The license you agreed to by getting HBO, or ordering PPV gave them the right to. in short we gave the content providers the right.

TiVo had a choice to play along or go up against macrovision. consdiering TiVo is not a big conglomerate and has no money to throw around, the choice was obvious for TiVo. I never said their was any legal reason I just implied legal coercion.

so I ask again to anybody

what would you have TiVo do differently ?

[JYoung]

Originally Posted by Y-ASK

Does anyone think Tivo would be sued if they did this. I mean hell they've been doing it for how long now? It's only been recently that they implemented the box reacting to the flags.

Replay did get sued for their commerical advance and their Internet show sharing between boxes and the Planet Replay website got shut down because for legal action. And they had a smaller user base.


So yeah, I think TiVo would get sued.

[Justin Thyme]

Originally Posted by Mike_J_Smith

Bah, this is something deal database can easily fix.

Precisely. Content execs have a choice. If they want to escalate and force deletion of Sopranos after 7 days, it will motivate enough people to use bypassing boxes like I mentioned or for situations where that is not convenient, to have their boxes hacked.

I've heard it speculated that people will be too lazy to use such approaches. That's nonsense. It is directly proportional to the extent that the Content Execs have pissed off consumers. In many western countries with strong IP laws, when you buy your dvd player, the salesperson will ask you if you would like it "serviced" for $20. What that means is that they will have another company replace a ROM so that region coding is disabled.

Nearly everyone that I know of in NZ and OZ opt for that- sure it voids the warranty- no one cares. The box is severely broken to them with the warranty.

But countries with IP law enforcement are in the minority. Profit maximization schemes for the studios need to be applicable to the rest of the world that does not have strong IP laws. With the Internet distribution of video, any leak anywhere means that the problem is fundamentally unpluggable.

If content execs want to escalate this, it will be a full blown guerilla war, involving chinese and brazilian manufacturers and web sites. There will be millions of units using software that obeys no licensing, FCC, or service agreements. The borders will be as porous to "upgrade chips and boards" as they are to drugs and people.

I am not optimistic, but whichever way it goes, the consumers are going to be able to get the functionality they desire. The studios have a responsibility to attempt to maximize their profit, and are accustomed to having maximum leverage. This is not such a situation, but they may well have to have their Vietnam to learn the limits of their leverage.

Certainly, it would have been much better for the Admirals to have listened to Billy Mitchell demonstrating for them in graphic detail that their illusion of battleship invulnerability was a dangerous fantasy. The paper I sited previously from Microsoft engineers presented at an ACM conference dealing with DRM is one such warning. Content execs can ignore the opinion of such Billy Mitchell's at their peril.

[starbreiz]

Followup on BoingBoing: http://www.boingboing.net/2005/09/15..._cause_a_.html

[jmoak]

from the boingboing "followup":
TiVo says that the two programs that got this flag received it as the result of a transmission error -- noise that was "misinterpreted as a copy protection signal."

Poor fellas, they forgot to link to where we could verify that!
As the closest I've seen was ...

from Tivopony's post in this thread:
megazone:
You realize this was most likely a transmission glitch and not something the broadcaster was doing deliberately.
Tivopony:
We do believe this to be the case, and if anyone else sees this happen please do send Stephen or myself a private message with your TSN and any available information about the broadcaster. Thanks.
...
As others have noted, we have seen the random occurance of this before. And in each case there's been a glitch or a bug lurking somewhere. Nothing malevolant.

Believe blogs without verifiying???? Do I look like I ride in a "SwiftBoat" or enjoy "Moving On" to you???

[Justin Thyme]

Oh great. If it's going to get quoted, then Bob- I suggest you edit that typo- It's malevolent.

(No one in the audience jump me- I hate grammar cops too- and I freely admit my notes are more filled with typos than the average TCF post- but if it will be quoted... Maybe no big deal though. This little storm in a teacup is looking to be slowing down. We are only up 50K hits today. Dang- more "Views" than the entire Mcwhiner thread in less than 4 days.)

[ufo4sale]

Can someone setup a poll to see how wide spread the problem actually is? As far as I can tell only two or three people have seen these red flags.

[Y-ASK]

Originally Posted by JYoung

Replay did get sued for their commerical advance and their Internet show sharing between boxes and the Planet Replay website got shut down because for legal action. And they had a smaller user base.


So yeah, I think TiVo would get sued.

I realize that anyone can pretty much sue anyone, but Tivo has been ignoring Macrovision for the last four years or more. Don't you think if they were going to be sued they would have been sued by now? I'm just thankful that the 1st video capture card I purchased did not have any of the macrovision crap setup. Unfortunately it seems that most of the newer cards have it.

Y-ASK

[Aflat]

Has anyone else looked at the flip side of this? Sure Macrovision is now enabled. Don't you see what that gives them? You can download a Netflix movie, that can't be ripped to DVD, moved via TivoToGo, and deletes itself after a certain amount of days. Sure there will be workarounds, but not easy ones for the average user, which makes it a justifiable market.

Sounds like step 1 in the Netflix/Tivo coop to me. Of course, it sucks for things like regular shows, but it appears to be a bug/glitch, who knows what.

[dgh]

Originally Posted by Y-ASK

Don't you think if they were going to be sued they would have been sued by now?

No. TiVo is still small and the long-term threat isn't well understood - especially since TiVo does try to work with the companies that the technology threatens. It's often better to wait to see what the real impact is. It makes for better cases and larger awards and saves time fighting things that only seemed like threats. And mutual agreements can be more productive than court cases.

[rainwater]

Originally Posted by Aflat

Has anyone else looked at the flip side of this? Sure Macrovision is now enabled. Don't you see what that gives them? You can download a Netflix movie, that can't be ripped to DVD, moved via TivoToGo, and deletes itself after a certain amount of days. Sure there will be workarounds, but not easy ones for the average user, which makes it a justifiable market.

Sounds like step 1 in the Netflix/Tivo coop to me. Of course, it sucks for things like regular shows, but it appears to be a bug/glitch, who knows what.

I don't subscribe to Netflix so I could care less about that. I don't have HBO so I could care less about that.

TiVo says this is for PPV's and VOD ONLY. Obviously, its not just for that. TiVo also says they may have interpreted the noise incorrectly for which people who know how it works have laughed themselves silly. Why can't TiVo just clarify the situation already?

[jmoak]

Originally Posted by rainwater

TiVo also says they may have interpreted the noise incorrectly for which people who know how it works have laughed themselves silly.

boingboing has said that as well, but I can't find where tivo has stated that. Can you point me to a link where tivo says they may have interpreted the noise incorrectly?

Thanks!

[dgh]

Originally Posted by rainwater

Why can't TiVo just clarify the situation already?

As far as I can tell from the thread, the 1 to 3 people who have seen a problem haven't contacted TiVo with any details. If that trend continues, I don't expect to see a lot of additional clarity real soon.

But speaking of clarity, how much less could you care? (Yeah I know, I'm the last person to talk about typos but "I could care less" always makes me wonder: how much? )

[Dan203]

Originally Posted by Y-ASK

I realize that anyone can pretty much sue anyone, but Tivo has been ignoring Macrovision for the last four years or more. Don't you think if they were going to be sued they would have been sued by now? I'm just thankful that the 1st video capture card I purchased did not have any of the macrovision crap setup. Unfortunately it seems that most of the newer cards have it.

Actually that's incorrect. TiVo has had a Macrovision license, and played by their rules, since day one. Macrovision just decided to change the rules. Previously all they required was that TiVo detect the Macrovision signal and recreate that same signal on output. Now they are forcing TiVo, and other DVR manufacturers, to adhear to these new forced deletion rules or lose their license. And unfortunately the Macrovision licenses is interlocked with other licenses that TiVo needs to function as a business.

Dan

[Y-ASK]

Originally Posted by ZeoTiVo

TiVo has always had a macrovision license and TiVo has definitley not ignored macrovision. macrovision seems fine with the pace TiVo is complying with the realtively new agreement on broadcast bits. you are starting with incorrect assumptions and leaping to wrong conclusions

Man you piss me off sometimes with some of your interpretations . I meant that my TIVO DEVICE ignored (didn't do anything with) the embedded Macrovison Flags for the last four or more years and it's only recently they set the software up to deal with the Flags. You're not understanding what I am saying and your incorrect interpretations are leading you to argue wrong conclusions. Now get with the program please...

Y-ASK

[Y-ASK]

Originally Posted by Dan203

Now they are forcing TiVo, and other DVR manufacturers, to adhear to these new forced deletion rules or lose their license.

And if they lose their license that would cause... what?

I already answered your 1st response when I responded to Zeo, that makes Two mis-interpretations. Must be my fault.

Y-ASK

[ZeoTiVo]

Originally Posted by Y-ASK

Man you piss me off sometimes with some of your interpretations . I meant that my TIVO DEVICE ignored (didn't do anything with) the embedded Macrovison Flags for the last four or more years and it's only recently they set the software up to deal with the Flags. You're not understanding what I am saying and your incorrect interpretations and leading you to argue wrong conclusions. Now get with the program please...

Y-ASK

sorry I deleted my post as Dan203 stated it much better just above you.

as for what they would lose - they would imediately have to disable any DVD playback on any Tivo with a DVD and no valid license.

they would get there butts sued silly over TTG and anything else macrovision could think of /convince interested parties to sue over.

[dgh]

Originally Posted by Y-ASK

that makes Two mis-interpretations. Must be my fault.

Y-ASK

If you've read Dan's post including "Macrovision just decided to change the rules. Previously all they required..." then I don't understand the distinction you're making either.

[rainwater]

Originally Posted by dgh

As far as I can tell from the thread, the 1 to 3 people who have seen a problem haven't contacted TiVo with any details. If that trend continues, I don't expect to see a lot of additional clarity real soon.

I don't mean clarify these actual instances. But to clarify what the flag can be used for, who can set the flag (I'm sorry but Joe Schmoe at a local affiliate shouldn't be able to click a button and have shows deleted automatically), etc. From what I can see, TiVo hasn't devised a very good plan on how to handle these flags. If it is only for VOD and PPV, then the software itself shouldn't allow it on other shows. I have no problem using this for PPV and VOD, but the software should exclude it from "accidentally" happening on other shows.

[dt_dc]

Originally Posted by Y-ASK

And if they lose their license that would cause... what?

Didn't Tivo's general counsel answer this?

http://www.wired.com/wired/archive/12.11/view.html?pg=3

(Wired) You're not legally required to have copy protection. Why not tell Macrovision to stuff it?

(TiVo general counsel Matthew Zinn) That was an option. But if there was no Macrovision license, we would run into a lot of copyright problems with things like remote access and "TiVo to Go" functionality.

[MickeS]

How about this: TiVo gives the user the option of having EITHER TTG and DVD-burning and all the other transfer stuff WITH Macrovision, OR disable it and be able to record and save any show indefinitely.

I know what I'd end up doing, as soon as I saw my first show being tagged for deletion by a broadcaster.

[Shaolin Dogs]

Originally Posted by rainwater

If it is only for VOD and PPV, then the software itself shouldn't allow it on other shows.

But it's not just for VOD and PPV. That can be inferred from Zinn's hardly reassuring answer from the same Wired article:

[WIRED: ]What if the higher-value content is just the beginning? This could be a Trojan horse.

[ZINN: ]That would be a violent blow to consumer flexibility. You could end up in a situation where different products by different manufacturers would have different rules. I don't think we would go along with it.

The higher-value content Wired is referring to is <<VOD and PPV>>. Zinn could have said, "If the flag is applied to something other than higher-value content, we will NOT go along with it." But he didn't.

He's hoping "content owners" will get the message about the perils of limiting consumer flexibility if consumers don't buy PPV. But given the industry's singular focus on locking down consumer devices like the PVR and every other statement in this thread about the relative power of the copyright industry and TiVo, I'm thinking they're not going to "get" that message.

[topolski]

TiVo,

DRM is the publisher's attempt to enforce electronically what they could not get legally.

**** I HAVE THE RIGHT **** (me) to record these shows for my personal use. The content owner (not me) has the right to distribute it, make money on it, etc..

I was going to buy a second unit for the bedroom, but now I'll buy a Snapstream unit instead.

I'm not buying from someone who treats me like a crook.

[MickeS]

Doesn't Snapstream have the new Macrovision protection too? I assume they can't be without it either, if it's like TiVo describes it?

[Y-ASK]

Originally Posted by dgh

If you've read Dan's post including "Macrovision just decided to change the rules. Previously all they required..." then I don't understand the distinction you're making either.

The distinction I was trying to make is that previous versions of the Tivo software just recorded the macrovision that was embedded in the analog video stream. The Tivo (software) did not do anything with it. It recorded it and it passed it on. Now Tivo has changed the way the software works and is now doing something with the Flags. The macrovision flags now trigger a software reaction which did not happen before the updates.

Ok so the rules have changed. But do I really need Tivo to Go, Remote Access or a DVD player or burner on my Tivo? That's really the only need for the macrovision license isn't it?

Oh well, I guess well see what becomes of this.

Y-ASK

[Justin Thyme]

Originally Posted by jmoak

boingboing has said that as well, but I can't find where tivo has stated that. Can you point me to a link where tivo says they may have interpreted the noise incorrectly?

Thanks!

I am sure that Stephen's team appreciates all the assistance they are getting from Brussels and the Blogmeisters with their armchair debugging opinions. Of course facts have some utility too, but none of the bloggers I have read have taken the responsible step of urging users to contact Tivo with their TSN if they see this phenomenon.

Anyway, Dwight Silverman reported the test phase "noise problem" on his blog. Apparently, it is his phone interview quote of what Denney told him. But Denney is a marketing not technical guy so who knows if his shorthand "noise" remark means that it is "like" a noise problem or what. Anyway, if you look at the direct quote, Denney was talking about a problem that was resolved before the software was released, not what test had revealed about the current problem.

Originally Posted by Denney

"During the test process, we came across people who had false positives because of noisy analog signals," he said. "We actually delayed development (of the new TiVo software) to address those false positives."

So what does it mean? The Brussels DRM conference guys were guffawing about lousey Tivo software misinterpreting a Macrovision checksummed field. Of course, the "OS company" engineer who made the remark was unidentified and paraphrased. Whatever- Great thinking guys. But consider the scenario of what you do when you get damaged field. Do you assume content not protected? Or do you take the conservative position of assuming it is protected until you get an authenticated field prove that it is unprotected? In that scenario and with that school of thought, noise/ slightly invalid field= false positive, and the Tivo software would hardly be considered buggy. Not desireable by many customers, but not buggy. And Denney indicated he was NOT of that school of thought, and that there should be no false positives.

So much for more of Cory's idiotic notes. What do you expect- if he were even remotely interested in the facts, he could have picked up citations here on where he could learn for himself that the macrovision flags occupy two bits, not one. Perhaps Cory in his expert engineering opinion didn't stop to consider how the 4 states documented on the tivo site could get stored in one bit.

But like I said, these guys aren't interested in reading and thinking. Just ranting and writing and striving to be read.