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Old 02-06-2004, 05:50 PM   #331
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Quote:
Originally posted by hongcho
duffin,

I am sure DirecTV will eventually get there. But as of now, they do not have enough bandwidth for all those channels, and that's a fact. The only reason people are saying those things is because of the immenant launch of the new DirecTV 7S satellite (which is pushed to April, I think), which is hoped to create more capacity.

In the mean time, your best bet would be an indoor/outdoor antenna.

Hong.
I agree they don't have the bandwidth for local affiliates in HD, but they DO have the bandwidth for East/West HD national feeds for distant customers if they so choose to provided them.
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Old 02-06-2004, 06:05 PM   #332
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NBC, ABC, FOX, WB, UPN, at least... That would be 10 more HD channels. I doubt they can do that without dropping others. For me, I'd rather have them put STARZ-HD or BRAVO-HD on. But you might feel different.

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Old 02-07-2004, 06:42 AM   #333
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I have a question regarding the tuner architecture of the HD-DVR250 -- not sure if anyone will have enough info. to answer this, but here goes:

I live in a new midrise condo with about 50 units and a rooftop satellite system that a private contractor has installed with a pretty complex distribution system inside the building, including mixing a rooftop OTA antenna into the HD feed.

The pre-wiring in the building into each unit is limited and can't be expanded because of physical access limitations, and creates limits on how many feeds of what type can be brought in. Bottom line is that I can receive one feed to the back of the HD Tivo that will have all three satellites plus OTA, so I diplex the OTA over to the OTA input and have one satellite tuner active -- and I can live with that.

There is a second feed cable available from my junction box to the prospective HD Tivo location, however. It's possible to bring a second HD signal over it, but that would max out the feed capacity to my unit overall and I wouldn't be able to get SD signals elsewhere (and I need them). I can, however, bring one more SD signal into the unit without impacting any of my other feeds, and I could feed that to the back of the HD Tivo into the second satellite port. (I've researched this carefully, and these are the limitations due to the way our building distribution system is set up).

OK, here's the question: will the new Tivo work with one HD signal into one satellite port and one SD signal into the other? This would allow me to use dual sat tuners with the limitation that only one could get HD. My concern is that the guide reference might be common, or the unit could have a problem with only the 101 satellite being on the second tuner -- or some other issue that would give it problems with this mixed satellite setup.

Anybody have enough insight into the way the unit works to know if this will fly?

Thanks for your help.
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Old 02-07-2004, 09:16 AM   #334
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I don't understand why you are drawing a distinction between SD feeds and HD feeds. You have satellite feeds, and OTA feeds, both of which could be carrying SD and/or HD content.
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Old 02-07-2004, 09:57 AM   #335
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Darin, it has to do with the way the main building distribution system and multiswitches are set up to serve 50 units -- all owned by a contractor who designed the distribution system. The building was built with only two coax feeds into each unit: no way to snake more coax into the unit from the distribution system, and the multiswitches are somewhere else and I can't get to them or modify them (and I'd have to snake more coax for that to work anyway).

The options are: two HD, going to two tuners, or one HD and one SD. I think the SD must be "stacked" so that it can be split to up to four receivers. But the HD isn't "stacked", so it can only go to one tuner. I have three SD receivers and one HD right now. So my only option (without taking down my other SD receivers) is to split out the fourth SD signal on the SD feed and connect it to the second tuner on the HD-DVR250.

Does that clarify it? When they built this building (only a year ago), if they had understood the technology they'd have run four coax lines to each unit, and that would have created a lot more flexibility.
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Old 02-07-2004, 10:11 AM   #336
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No, I am still not clear. There is no such thing as SD or HD feeds. As Darin said, there is only Coax. It is where they are hooked-up that matters. So, you need 2 coax feeds that come from the satellite and 1 from the OTA antenna. The OTA can be diplexed in and out of one the satellite feeds so you only need 2 coax in total.

Now, this may be your real problem: where are dish are the feeds coming from? Perhaps the "SD feed" that you are referring to is hooked up to an old single LNB dish. If so, it's a matter of cascading or upgrading the multiswitch so that it is hooked up to the right dish/dishes.
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Old 02-07-2004, 10:39 AM   #337
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Quote:
Originally posted by MitsHD
Does that clarify it? When they built this building (only a year ago), if they had understood the technology they'd have run four coax lines to each unit, and that would have created a lot more flexibility.
Even having run four coax lines to each unit is no guarantee for the future; when there are yet additional satellite feeds to make available, such as the SpaceWay satellite signals, or Ku/FSS signals, both of which might get utilized by DirecTV for new services, then you'd be stuck unable to use a multiswitch in your unit if you needed/wanted any of those new signals.

As I gather from your description, you have 2 coax lines from a triple-LNB distribution system and 1 coax line from a stacked 1-LNB distribution system... right?

If you do have the 2 triple-LNB coax lines, and 1 stacked single-LNB coax line, you can utilize a cascadable 5x8 multiswitch and make the full triple-LNB signals to all receivers in your home.

The stacked cable would provide the two SatA inputs to the multiswitch (after destacking them), and the 2 triple-LNB coax lines would provide the two SatBC inputs to the multiswitch. And you'd diplex off the antenna signal from whichever cable it was available, and connect that to the antenna input of the multiswitch.

You'd have a mess of wires around, especially if these coax lines came into different rooms, but you could do it.
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Old 02-07-2004, 10:45 AM   #338
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The options are: two HD, going to two tuners, or one HD and one SD. I think the SD must be "stacked" so that it can be split to up to four receivers. But the HD isn't "stacked", so it can only go to one tuner.
Ok, I think I understand now. Since you mention stacking, I'm guessing that what you really mean is that you have the option of two feeds that can get all three satellites, or a stacked feed that can serve 101 to multiple receivers, plus another feed that can serve all three satellites to one. I don't know if there is a stacker/destacker solution for multiple satellites, so this would make sense. Historically, most of the HD has been on the 110 and 119 satellites, so I could see how this confusion could exist.

So really, your options are: Give the tivo two feeds and let it run dual tuner, or give it it one feed, and have another signal that can feed the other receivers you have. Obviously, you want to take advantage of dual tuners on the hd-tivo, but you also have other receivers that you want to serve. THAT is your quandry, correct? You could feed the second tuner of the hd-tivo with the stacked signal (which could simultaneously feed the other receviers), so it would see all three satellites on one tuner, and just 101 from the second, but here is the problem: assuming the HD-tivo is like the current SD version (which in this respect, is a pretty safe bet), you can't differentiate between the two inputs as to whether or not you have a single sat dish or a mult-sat dish, nor can you give each input different "channels I receive" lists. So you'd have some channels (MOSTLY HD) that could only be seen from one input, but it would sometimes try to tune those from the other tuner, and it would get nothing. It would be a problematic setup, that would kinda work, but have some annoying problems.

There is a third, though expensive, option. Since you have two feeds coming in to your unit, you should be able to stack BOTH of them, so you can get all three satellites on both feeds. Since you say you have the option of a stacked signal that can feed multiple outlets in your unit, but only two feeds that come in to your unit, then they must split once they get to your unit. IF you have access to where those signals are split, then a second (somewhat expensive) stacker could be put downstream of the multiswitch, with a 22khz tone generator that makes sure that the stacker is always asking for the combined sat B/C signal. Then in your unit, use a destacker to break it back out into the odd/even sat b/c signal, and take another destacker to break out the odd/even 101 signal, then take those four outputs to feed a multiswitch, which would then have outputs to feed each of the outlets in your uniti all three sats. I've never heard of this being done, but I see no reason why it wouldn't work. Stackers aren't cheap, but neither is the hd-tivo.
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Old 02-07-2004, 10:53 AM   #339
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If you do have the 2 triple-LNB coax lines, and 1 stacked single-LNB coax line, you can utilize a cascadable 5x8 multiswitch and make the full triple-LNB signals to all receivers in your home.
And the difference between what Doug is suggesting and what I'm suggesting is dependant on what you have coming in to your unit. I'm assuming you ONLY have two cables feeding your unit, and you can choose whether you want them to be a stacked 101 signal, or a non-stacked triple-sat signal.

We really need to know more about how the wiring is set-up. Do the individual outlets in your unit go directly to a distribution room that has access to everything, or do you get two feeds to your unit that are then split?
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Old 02-07-2004, 10:59 AM   #340
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Quote:
Originally posted by Darin
And the difference between what Doug is suggesting and what I'm suggesting is dependant on what you have coming in to your unit. I'm assuming you ONLY have two cables feeding your unit, and you can choose whether you want them to be a stacked 101 signal, or a non-stacked triple-sat signal.

We really need to know more about how the wiring is set-up. Do the individual outlets in your unit go directly to a distribution room that has access to everything, or do you get two feeds to your unit that are then split?
Yeah, re-reading I think you're right about what he has... 2 cables.

If he could get a cooperative neighbor with a common wall to feed him their triple-LNB signal, he could feed one (or more) of his multiswitched ones back so the neighbor doesn't lose anything or has a net gain and he gets expandability.

Getting the contractor to stack the SatBC signals would probably be the only other alternative. At least it wouldn't be totally expensive since half the stacking is already done (SatA).
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Old 02-07-2004, 11:04 AM   #341
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Getting the contractor to stack the SatBC signals would probably be the only other alternative. At least it wouldn't be totally expensive since half the stacking is already done (SatA).
If that is how they are set up.... two feeds to each unit, then split to individual rooms from there, it would get even less exensive if they could convince them that they should offer two stacked signals to everyone.... split up the cost of the 2nd stacker.
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Old 02-07-2004, 11:23 AM   #342
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Are you saying that 1 feed coming into the apartment can only see 101 and the other feed can see 101/110/119?

This would be strange but, I guess, understandable.
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Old 02-07-2004, 12:15 PM   #343
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I think his point is he can get a 101/110/119 feed, or a stacked 101 feed. If you choose the stacked 101 feed you can split it to multiple boxes in your apartment, if you choose the 101/110/119 feed, you can't split it. I think it was very nice of them to give you options.. Shows some planning.

I agree with DSwallow, your best bet is to try and get a neighbor to share with you. Then you could use a 4x8, 5x8, or 4x16 multiswitch to give their feeds back, and run everything in your own apartment.

Good luck!
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Old 02-07-2004, 01:09 PM   #344
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Yes, MCodanti's depiction is correct, and I have that option on either of two cables only coming in. Since I want to feed multiple SD receivers, I will be working with one cable having stacked 101, and the other having 101/110/119.

I don't think I'm up for the attempt to stack the 101/110/119, as the cost isn't worth it for the marginal benefit. As it stands, since I can record two OTA signals and one sat signal with HD, I will have a fair amount of flexibility for simultaneous watching/recording.

So the real question for me is the one Darin addressed -- what would happen with one 101/110/119 feed and the other a stacked 101 feed? This would allow me to do one HD sat program and one SD sat program at the same time, which I won't be able to do with one one sat feed.

If the Tivo has a preference about which satellite input it selects first, I could feed the 101/110/119 into that, and it might work as long as I'm heads up about what's going on at a point in time so that I don't schedule conflicts. But if it is random in terms of which tuner it goes for when both are available, then it's not going to work.

My guess is that I'm at a level of operational detail that we don't know about yet, since the unit isn't released. I don't need to call this shot right away, so I can get the unit up and running, and then see if I can get some clarity from TIVO (or this board) on whether the mixed sat feeds will work after we have some experience with the unit.

Thanks very much to Darin, Doug, Feldon, and MCodanti for taking so much time to weigh in here. This board has been fabulous for me in coming up to speed.
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Old 02-07-2004, 01:26 PM   #345
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Quote:
Originally posted by MitsHD
I don't think I'm up for the attempt to stack the 101/110/119, as the cost isn't worth it for the marginal benefit. As it stands, since I can record two OTA signals and one sat signal with HD, I will have a fair amount of flexibility for simultaneous watching/recording.
I think the provision of both stacked SatA and a single full-access SatABC feed are interesting... and that you might have some hope that the company that installed these systems would be willing to listen to your request for a stacked SatA and a stacked SatBC feed. They might be willing to provide for that with the knowledge that there's going to be other residents who will face similar problems you're facing. When the cost of stacking and providing for the distribution of the SatBC signal is spread across multiple units, your incremental cost to destack them and feed a 5x8 multiswitch is probably around $200. That's not an outrageous cost; in line with what you'd pay to have a professional installer run more cabling if that were possible in the first place.

It can't hurt to express your desire for them providing such options.
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Old 02-07-2004, 02:19 PM   #346
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My guess is that I'm at a level of operational detail that we don't know about yet, since the unit isn't released.
My guess would be that you would have a 50/50 shot of recording anything that was on 110/119. I doubt that it will be "smart enough" to say "oh, I'm not getting these satellites on this input, but I am over here, so I'll TRY to use this input for 101, and keep the other open for 110/119". That is such a rare situation, that the programming complexity just wouldn't be worth it. Not only will you probably be in a situation where half of your 110/119 recordings get missed, but you will occasionally find that the 101/110/119 feed is being used to record something on 101, and you won'to be able to watch 110/119 because you won't want to interupt that recording.
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Old 02-07-2004, 02:37 PM   #347
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Good call, Darin -- I see your logic. I'll just stay with the one feed. Thanks.
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Old 02-07-2004, 02:42 PM   #348
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If you combine your 101/110/119 feed with a neighbor's 101/110/119 feed, plus your stacked input, you can generate unlimited outputs.

You could ask them to run their line through a small hole in the wall and in exchange you would run 2 101/110/119 wires back into their apartment.


You may need to use a tone generator to keep the 101/110/119 inputs set to output odd 110/119 and even 110/119.
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Old 02-07-2004, 02:47 PM   #349
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Quote:
Originally posted by feldon23
You may need to use a tone generator to keep the 101/110/119 inputs set to output odd 110/119 and even 110/119.
The cascadable multiswitch would be generating that.

And in your drawing don't forget the line going back to the neighbor.
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Old 02-07-2004, 05:52 PM   #350
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Using Feldon's method you could even create a unlimited 101 + 119, or 101 + 110 feeds without your neighbors extra feed. (But you would have no full 101+110+119 feeds)
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Old 02-07-2004, 06:04 PM   #351
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Using Feldon's method you could even create a unlimited 101 + 119, or 101 + 110 feeds without your neighbors extra feed. (But you would have no full 101+110+119 feeds)
Not quite like that... It'd be 101 + 110/119 clockwise polarity or 101 + 110/119 counterclockwise polarity.
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Old 02-07-2004, 06:14 PM   #352
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Using Feldon's method you could even create a unlimited 101 + 119, or 101 + 110 feeds without your neighbors extra feed.
Well, no, you could do a 101 + 110 + 119 even without the neighbor's extra wire, OR a 101 + 119 odd, but not a 101 + 119 (full). That would almost be a decent solution, if they didn't have the good channels mixed up the way they do. But right now, 110 has ShowtimeHD, HDnet Movies, ESPN, and DiscoveryHD, while HBOHD and HDnet are on the ODD transponders of 119. So you'd have to choose between those two groups. And you'd risk losing the channels you picked if/when they move things around (which they could easily do once 7s is up).
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Old 02-07-2004, 06:20 PM   #353
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Feldon's solution is terrific -- but I can't do the neighbor access physically. I have, however, figured out a workaround to all this. The two cables-only configuration is replicated through the unit from a distribution panel where the feed cables come in, so I have two cables back to my home theater cabinet.

On one, I'll use the 101/110/119 feed I have now with OTA (from the roof) combined, diplex out the OTA, and have three tuners on the HD Tivo (one satellite, two OTA).

The new HD Tivo will replace my existing Hughes HIRD E-86 and Tivo Series 2, and I'll still have one unused coax, one more SD satellite signal at my distribution panel, and a UHF antenna in the front closet near the distribution panel that gets the local OTA's (building roof antenna is separate). I'll diplex the fourth 101 signal with the indoor UHF antenna, and bring that back to the Hughes E-86 through the second coax. Then I'll have OTA hidef through the Hughes (probably never use it given two OTA tuners on the new TIVO), and SD on the Hughes going into the Tivo Series 2 as I do now. That gives me a clunky but functional way to record additional satellite programs in SD if I need to while recording another satellite program on the HD Tivo, and a way to do three OTA's at once, which as I said I may never use.

That's probably my best workaround, and the lost potential from putting the E-86 on Ebay is about the same as the cost of the mutiswitches and destackers would be if I could get a neighbor's line. All I lose is the ability to Tivo/watch two satellite HD programs at once, and I can easily live with that.

I wouldn't have thought of this without the stimulus of the dialogue we've had on this. Thanks again.
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Old 02-07-2004, 09:01 PM   #354
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Who was bitching about this forum not being helpful? Kudos to Darin, Doug and Feldon. I'm sure others noticed, but I just wanted to point out the custom pic that feldon created in his last post just to address MitsHD's specific problem.
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Old 02-07-2004, 09:21 PM   #355
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Since we don't know exactly how the HD Tivo will work I can't say for sure but I suspect it won't do what you want.

We have decided that it probably treats 1 D* and 1 OTA tuner as one virtual tuner. So it has 2 virtual tuners. When you tell it you only have one D* feed, it probably will turn off that whole virtual tuner. Meaning you will have a one tuner box. (Either OTA or D* at any given time.) Otherwise the scheduling would get too complicated.

I could be wrong, but plan for one tuner and be surprised if both OTA work with just one D* feed.

(My understanding is that the Dish Network 921 will ONLY work if you have 2 sat feeds hooked up... Won't even operate with only one.)
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Old 02-08-2004, 02:57 PM   #356
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As a late arrival to this party, I just wanted to post a thank you to feldon23 for this excellent informative post.

I've been on a hiatus from electronic toy buying for quite a while, after a period of upgrading to HDTV, Tivo, prog scan DVD, surround sound, etc. While I used to post in the AVS forums fairly frequently, it's been a long time now.

I was still thinking that HD Tivo was a long way off, but something made me check the Tivo forums recently for any news. Wow!! I was quite surprised to see that this long awaited device is very close to reality. This post made me start to drool.

It was good timing for me, too. I was able to get the hubby to give a thumbs up to the pre-order since we are getting a good tax refund this year. I won't be in the first wave, but that's okay.

Thanks again.
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Old 02-08-2004, 05:05 PM   #357
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Lady 400:

Timing is everything and yours is impeccable. Good to see you back.
Regards:
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Old 02-11-2004, 02:50 PM   #358
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Quote:
Originally posted by feldon23
If you combine your 101/110/119 feed with a neighbor's 101/110/119 feed, plus your stacked input, you can generate unlimited outputs.

You could ask them to run their line through a small hole in the wall and in exchange you would run 2 101/110/119 wires back into their apartment.


You may need to use a tone generator to keep the 101/110/119 inputs set to output odd 110/119 and even 110/119.
Sorry to jump in late on the party here but I had a thought. I know you said a neighbors line is not an option, but if it was, with one line you could in theory do all 3 sats. If your neighbor had a stacked "SD" cable, split it and run it into your home. Destack it and use that for 101. Request that both feeds coming into your apt be "HD" feeds, and plug those into 119. That would give you eight outputs (assuming your using a 4x8) that can see all of 101/110/119. I'd also recommend putting a DC block between the direct line from the multiswitch to the stacker (not destacker.)
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Old 02-11-2004, 03:51 PM   #359
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Question

Sorry if this has been already answered, i tried to read all the threads but did'nt see an answer to this.
if my pj supports 720p, can i set the output from hdtivo to 720p and be good for all channels
thnx for any info
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Old 02-11-2004, 03:58 PM   #360
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Sorry if this has been already answered, i tried to read all the threads but did'nt see an answer to this.
if my pj supports 720p, can i set the output from hdtivo to 720p and be good for all channels
thnx for any info
Yes.
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