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Old 01-17-2004, 02:20 PM   #181
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Yeah, I'm not sure how I'll get the thing in the attic. It's not huge, but it's big enough to make me think this isn't going to be easy. I checked again and NBC is on VHF, so I guess I'll have to get some kind of VHF antenna too.

I bet a lot of people don't bother with all of this setup. Especially those who just want to bring their TV home and plug it in. It will be nice when/if DirecTV offers HD locals. At least that will simplify things a bit.
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Old 01-17-2004, 02:58 PM   #182
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Quote:
Originally posted by Gromit
I bet a lot of people don't bother with all of this setup. Especially those who just want to bring their TV home and plug it in. It will be nice when/if DirecTV offers HD locals. At least that will simplify things a bit.
Gromit, I tend to agree that a lot of people will not want to go through the hassles to receive OTA HD signals. DirecTV is going to probably have to start including that as part of HD installation deals (in parts of the country where it's possible to receive HD channels via antenna), or provide the locals via satellite, as you mentioned.
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Old 01-17-2004, 06:11 PM   #183
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Attached is another picture of the back of the unit:
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File Type: jpg dvr250-rear.jpg (24.1 KB, 536 views)
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Old 01-18-2004, 05:53 AM   #184
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Quote:
Originally posted by Gromit
Yeah, I'm not sure how I'll get the thing in the attic. It's not huge, but it's big enough to make me think this isn't going to be easy. I checked again and NBC is on VHF, so I guess I'll have to get some kind of VHF antenna too.

I bet a lot of people don't bother with all of this setup. Especially those who just want to bring their TV home and plug it in. It will be nice when/if DirecTV offers HD locals. At least that will simplify things a bit.
You could also get a yagi antenna, that has both UHF and VHF elements on it you can check out some of the different ones available at www.starkelectronic.com

and the whole antenna thing can be a total pain in the rear, I do installations on the side and it can be a real challenge in certain situations. Installing wiring for ethernet, phone, cable, satellite, etc. is just so much easier than dealing with an antenna but for some, like me, it's a necessary evil.
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Old 01-18-2004, 11:10 AM   #185
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Quote:
Originally posted by Gromit
Yeah, I'm not sure how I'll get the thing in the attic. It's not huge, but it's big enough to make me think this isn't going to be easy. I checked again and NBC is on VHF, so I guess I'll have to get some kind of VHF antenna too.

I bet a lot of people don't bother with all of this setup. Especially those who just want to bring their TV home and plug it in. It will be nice when/if DirecTV offers HD locals. At least that will simplify things a bit.
The 4228 can be disassembled a bit to get it through smaller openings if you have to.
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Old 01-18-2004, 08:38 PM   #186
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I've been reading a lot here is the HD-TiVo section the last hew days, but have one question that I haven't seen addressed, or even asked. It may well be that we simply don't know the answer yet.

Will activation of the HD DTiVo require subscription to an HD programming package from DirecTV? Or can I use is it strictly with SD DirecTV and Digital OTA programming?

Essentially, can I get one without having to change my monthly subscription costs, other than add a mirroring fee? I fully expect to see a 12 month commitment to remain a DirecTV customer.
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Old 01-18-2004, 09:24 PM   #187
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Neither the VE or GG preorders said anything about having to add the HD package, though I suspect that DirecTV is thinking that people will, and that after they figure out that people aren't that they will require an HD premium for at least a year. (HBO, Showtime, or the HD package.)

They want people to subscribe so they have money to add more stuff, or at least that is how I see it.
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Old 01-18-2004, 09:42 PM   #188
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Quote:
Originally posted by dswallow
The 4228 can be disassembled a bit to get it through smaller openings if you have to.
That will probably get it through the entrance to my attic (pull down stairs, standard size I suppose). Since I have to pull in 1 VHF channel too though, I'll check out the yagi that llogan mentioned.

Quote:
Originally posted by MCodanti
Neither the VE or GG preorders said anything about having to add the HD package, though I suspect that DirecTV is thinking that people will, and that after they figure out that people aren't that they will require an HD premium for at least a year. (HBO, Showtime, or the HD package.)

They want people to subscribe so they have money to add more stuff, or at least that is how I see it.


I figured the HD package was a requirement to get the free dish upgrade. I'll need the dish but I figured HBO and the other HD channels will be worth it. I might even be able to sit through hockey on HDNet.
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Old 01-18-2004, 09:50 PM   #189
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Subscription to DIRECTV's HD programming package is not required.

In fact, you will get the following HD channels, HBO, SHOWTIME, *CBS and *FOX, at no additional charge, if you subscribe to the respective SD programming.

* CBS and *FOX HD channels are available in the 16 O&O markets only.

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Old 01-18-2004, 10:43 PM   #190
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sat cable installation

Sorry, I'm really confused. There are 3 satellites, 3 LNBs. I'm okay with this. I'm guessing that with 3 LNBs you have 3 cables out of the dish, right? Now the HD-DVR250 says it supports 2 digital satellites and I think it has 2 connectors for this. How do you go from 3 LNBs to 2 satellite inputs?

Quote:
You need the 3-LNB elliptical dish or the newer Phase III 3-LNB dish; DirecTV will provide that to you free or at low cost when you add HD to your configuration... just call and talk to them about it. They'll also deal with your multiswitch, including if you need more than 4 outputs. The multiswitch will be 4x4 or 4x8 or 5x4 or 5x8 (5 inputs including the 4 LNB signals and an over the air antenna). So if you've got a place inside for the multiswitch, you'll have 4 coax cables from the dish plus a coax cable from your antenna involved in coming into the house.
Now my head is really spinning. How did we go from 3 LNBs to 4 LNB signals?

Lastly, is there a simple tutorial on switches? Something I can read to help me make sense of the above quote?

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Old 01-19-2004, 05:53 AM   #191
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The Phase III 3-LNB dish has a built-in multiswitch, which outputs 4 cables. You can run those 4 outputs into a 4x8 multiswitch, which will give you enough outputs to support up to 4 DirecTivos if you'd like.
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Old 01-19-2004, 08:12 AM   #192
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Re: sat cable installation

Quote:
Originally posted by paulj
I'm guessing that with 3 LNBs you have 3 cables out of the dish, right? Now the HD-DVR250 says it supports 2 digital satellites and I think it has 2 connectors for this. How do you go from 3 LNBs to 2 satellite inputs? Now my head is really spinning. How did we go from 3 LNBs to 4 LNB signals
Well, it doesn't really work quite like that. Technically, for each LNB, you need two cables, one for even transponders, and one for odd, because a single cable can't contain both at the same time (Except the Sat-C, or 110 LNB, which only has even transponders). BUT, because they only have a handful of transponders on 110 & 119, they "mix" the even transponders from 110 in with the 119 transponders. THATS why there's four cables: two for 101, and two for the mixed 110/119 signals. A cable can only carry one of the four "sets" of signals at one time, and that is the purpose of the multiswitch: To give each receiver the right set. So, with the four outputs from the Phase 3 dish, there are enough for each cable to be dedicated to one set, and the multiswitch connects each output to each receiver to the right input, depending on which set it requests.

The two inputs on the TiVo have nothing to do with any of this: for all intents and purposes, it is two separate DirecTV receivers (it has two tuners, to tune to two different channels at one time, even if they are on different satellites). Therefore, it needs two separate inputs from the multiswitch.
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Old 01-19-2004, 08:52 AM   #193
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Many thanks Darin. My current dish has the switch built in so I had forgotten about all of this. Interesting that you pretty much HAVE to have a switch with a dish now.

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Old 01-19-2004, 02:10 PM   #194
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A 3LNB dish sees the 3 satellites.

The FOUR wires that come out of the dish are all "switched" outputs which means that any of the 4 wires can see either side of any of the 3 satellites.

This is why you cannot use a splitter, because signal tones and voltages are sent up the wire FROM the DirecTV receiver TO the dish (or multiswitch) asking for the satellite feed they need to display the requested channel.
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Old 01-19-2004, 04:02 PM   #195
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Ok, I've updated the FAQ. How's every 2 days?

I've added my 3 sentence description of multiswitches above as well as 2 new HDTiVo-specific diagrams which should explain all permutations of 4xX and 2xX switches.
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Old 01-20-2004, 12:11 AM   #196
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Quote:
The FOUR wires that come out of the dish are all "switched" outputs which means that any of the 4 wires can see either side of any of the 3 satellites.
Hmm, if this is true why would need need a switch if you only had two TiVos??

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Old 01-20-2004, 12:22 AM   #197
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Because for 2 TiVos, you need 4 inputs (tuners) which can each see either the even or odd side of the 101 satellite depending on what channel you're watching/recording?

You can't get all of the 101 satellite on 1 wire without stacking. The fact that you only need 101 odd and 101 even allows you to use a 2x4, 2x6, or 2x8 multiswitch (as diagrammed) to feed DirecTV TiVos.

For 101/110/119, you need a 4x? multiswitch.
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Old 01-20-2004, 01:37 AM   #198
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Quote:
Originally posted by paulj
Hmm, if this is true why would need need a switch if you only had two TiVos??
*IF* you have the 3LNB dish with the integrated multiswitch (4x4), and you only want to use 2 TiVo's, you're all set. No additional multiswitch required.

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Old 01-20-2004, 06:38 AM   #199
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Quote:
Originally posted by jautor
*IF* you have the 3LNB dish with the integrated multiswitch (4x4), and you only want to use 2 TiVo's, you're all set. No additional multiswitch required.

Jeff
That sounds good. I'll have 2 TiVos, so I guess I won't need another multiswitch.

Under this scenario, I guess the OTA antenna goes directly to the HD TiVo? If you have a multi-switch with an OTA input, can you go that route as well? Does the OTA signal then go to each of the 2 lines going to each TiVo? If that's an option, I'll have to decide if I want to avoid drilling another hole in the side of my house and go the multi-switch option or just run the OTA directly into the house. My 2 story family room makes it difficult to run a line from the attic to the room through the walls. I pretty much have to go outside and into the family room via a drilled hole.
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Old 01-20-2004, 09:58 AM   #200
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Quote:
Originally posted by feldon23
Based on seeing 2 hard drives fight for bandwidth on every computer I've ever used with 2 drives on an ATA/xxx cable/bus.
Maybe the future for HDTV TiVo is Serial ATA?
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Old 01-20-2004, 12:14 PM   #201
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Quote:
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Under this scenario, I guess the OTA antenna goes directly to the HD TiVo? If you have a multi-switch with an OTA input, can you go that route as well? Does the OTA signal then go to each of the 2 lines going to each TiVo?
There's a separate OTA input on the back of the unit. So worst case, you'd need an un-diplexor to separate the OTA signal from one of the sat lines. I've never personally used the diplexor solution, but from what I've read around here (and avsforum), they do work, but at the expense of some signal loss on the OTA side. If you've got strong OTA signals, that may not be an issue.

But in my mind, if you *can* run a separate line from the antenna, you should... Now, if that costs money, then I'd certainly try the diplexor route first.

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Old 01-20-2004, 02:27 PM   #202
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Infamous Caller ID

To bring up a controversial question... Any idea if it will support Caller ID display? Should have a unified hardware base so no problem with some models/hardware refreshes not having CID support in the modem... Kinda getting used to it again with the new Samsung SIR-TS160 that I got with the $99 HD TV deal- be nice if they brought it to TiVo finally.
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Old 01-20-2004, 02:28 PM   #203
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Since digital OTA reception can be so hit-or-miss, the diplexor would be the first thing I'd take out of the equation if I couldn't get a signal.
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Old 01-20-2004, 02:43 PM   #204
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Re: Infamous Caller ID

Quote:
Originally posted by mercurial
To bring up a controversial question... Any idea if it will support Caller ID display?
There is no Caller ID feature, from all reports I've seen (I haven't personally laid eyes on these boxes, but I've been trying to keep up). They could probably add in such a feature later on...
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Old 01-20-2004, 03:50 PM   #205
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For $900, you get a DirecTV receiver that, although it has TiVo, DD, and HDTV capabilities, it's actually a bare bones DirecTV platform.
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Old 01-21-2004, 04:28 AM   #206
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Perhaps a stupid question, but over the past years I keep noticing that the quality of DirectTV broadcasting keeps declining. So many stations that used to be supersharp seem to be fuzzed now that more stations have been added to the stream.

With the HD programming, is the picture quality guaranteed to any degree ? As more HD stations are added to the sats are we going to see even greater degradation of the picture quality on the standard def stations ?

Thanks,

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Old 01-21-2004, 10:22 AM   #207
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I just can't wait for 2006.

HD TiVo with Open Cable QAM tuner for scrambled and unscrambled. Home network option. And NFL Sunday Ticket via cable.

I live for that day... I really do...

Running out of patience with Open Cable and Directv.... Sick of all the equipment. Someone please simplify my life for me.
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Old 01-21-2004, 10:34 AM   #208
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Quote:
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With the HD programming, is the picture quality guaranteed to any degree ? As more HD stations are added to the sats are we going to see even greater degradation of the picture quality on the standard def stations ?
For the relatively short term (next couple of years?), I think the PQ of HD is a fairly safe bet. DirecTV only gets in the neighborhood of 30-35Mbps per transponder, which is JUST enough to put two HD channels on. Doing three would be a big enough difference that I could not seeing them trying to push it that far. As HD becomes more "mainstream", and HD possibly grows into FSS transponders (which I believe have 45-50Mpbs each), or maybe even the Ka band, then their flexibility to make incremental changes that they'd hope we wouldn't notice will increase. They are also getting new equipment that better allows them to mix SD & HD channels on one transponder. So in the long term, it probably just depends on how tight and valuable bandwidth is for them, as well as how marketable PQ becomes.

FWIW, even OTA HD faces the same concerns, as local stations start getting lured into using subchannels as a form of revenue, and reducing the bandwidth available to the HD stream. The only thing that will likely prevent this from happening is the demand for high quality being high enough that they can associate money with it.
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Old 01-21-2004, 02:48 PM   #209
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We're already seeing overcompression of HD locals as local affiliates crowd out the HD channel with digital versions of their analog channels and Doppler radar feeds.

These people don't realize that 19.2Mbps is the MINIMUM bandwidth for HDTV to not start breaking up and looking terrible. 19.2Mbps just happens to be what each ATSC channel has.

Without turning this into a rehash of dozens of topics with thousands of posts on the AVS HDTV Programming forum (I recommend heading there to learn more about HD programs), the 2002 Olympics were completely unwatchable in HD here in Houston. KTRK-13 had a subchannel of their analog feed which was enough to cause every sporting event from the Olympics to look like pixelated crap.

Fortunately I had access to an HDTV with the national HD cable variety channel 'HDNet' which was also responsible for getting HD coverage of the Olympics available to NBC in the first place (Along with Japan's NHK).
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Old 01-21-2004, 05:50 PM   #210
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NFL Sunday Ticket

Quote:
Originally posted by Skyboss
I just can't wait for 2006.

HD TiVo with Open Cable QAM tuner for scrambled and unscrambled. Home network option. And NFL Sunday Ticket via cable.

I live for that day... I really do...

Running out of patience with Open Cable and Directv.... Sick of all the equipment. Someone please simplify my life for me.
Didn't Dtv just re-up with the NFL for exclusive rights to the Sunday Ticket through the end of the decade? They paid close to a billion dollars. I don't think you'll ever see the Sunday Ticket on Cable. Especially now that Murdoch owns Directv. He will overpay to keep it exclusively his.

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