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Old 08-06-2014, 02:00 PM   #91
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Originally Posted by trip1eX View Post
$10 profit on $15 is unreasonable at least in the first ~3 or 4 years.

No company I know of has a 66% profit margin.
When you purchase Windows from MS directly and MS sends you the code, their gross profit margin may be close to 99% on that sale.
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Old 08-06-2014, 02:50 PM   #92
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One doesn't look at profit margin for specific products - and you're discounting all the investment Microsoft made in creating Windows. But Microsoft is another company that routinely runs in the 60s for profit margin overall.
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Old 08-06-2014, 03:21 PM   #93
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When you purchase Windows from MS directly and MS sends you the code, their gross profit margin may be close to 99% on that sale.
gross is different than net.
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Old 08-06-2014, 03:22 PM   #94
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One doesn't look at profit margin for specific products - and you're discounting all the investment Microsoft made in creating Windows. But Microsoft is another company that routinely runs in the 60s for profit margin overall.
MS's profit margin is ~25%.
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Old 08-06-2014, 04:47 PM   #95
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gross is different than net.
I though we were talking about TiVo gross profit difference between retail and MSOs sales not net profit, as net profit included allocation for R&D sales cost and a lot of other stuff, I think I am correct on the incremental gross profit MS makes on a Windows sales, I was not referring to the profit MS makes as a company.
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Old 08-06-2014, 05:02 PM   #96
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MS's profit margin is ~25%.
Oh yeah? http://ycharts.com/companies/MSFT/gross_profit_margin
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Old 08-06-2014, 05:16 PM   #97
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SAC also includes the difference between hardware revenue and the cost of hardware revenue (both of which would include the Best Buy sales) for the TiVo-owned subs. This difference is about $100 per unit, with the advertising and deals being another $100 per unit, for a total of $200 of SAC (from 2014 annual report).
That makes more sense. The loss on hardware seems to come entirely from SAC including the cut that the retailer gets. In the case of the MSOs, they are probably buying the boxes near cost, and there is no store cut in there, so TiVo is probably making a very small profit on the hardware, and then getting the smaller monthly fees, but without any losses to undo.
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Old 08-06-2014, 06:23 PM   #98
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gross vs net
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Old 08-06-2014, 06:31 PM   #99
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I though we were talking about TiVo gross profit difference between retail and MSOs sales not net profit, as net profit included allocation for R&D sales cost and a lot of other stuff, I think I am correct on the incremental gross profit MS makes on a Windows sales, I was not referring to the profit MS makes as a company.
I was replying to a post that said "pure profit."
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Old 08-06-2014, 06:48 PM   #100
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That's just the thing. Retail is a small business for TiVo, and the MSOs that use TiVos will figure out with TiVo how to make them work, CableCard or not.
ACtually, contrary to what I was surmising, maybe MSOs here in the US do hate Tivo.

I skimmed the last quarterly report again and most MSO Tivo subscribers are from overseas.

2.1 million in the UK. 360k in Spain. 40k in Sweden.

Those numbers alone mean at least 2.5 million of 3.5 million of the Tivo MSO subs or roughly 71% are from overseas.
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Old 08-06-2014, 07:10 PM   #101
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They get about a $1 per month in revenue from an MSO sub and about $8 per month from a Tivo owned sub.

They make money on the hardware up front when selling it to the MSO or so it appears. They sold $16 million in hardware to MSOs and their hardware costs were $12 million. They added about 340k MSO subscribers. If those numbers were directly related then that's only $10 per subscriber in MSO hardware gross profit. But I am only skimming right now. I assume I don't know the full picture. They may depreciate their hardware revenue over time or MSOs might be ordering hardware ahead of time in preparation to sell to their subscribers? And so MSO additions and number of MSO hardware sold aren't directly related.

They lose money on hardware up front when selling direct to the customer. They lost about $130 per gross subscription addition (SAC) this past quarter which includes Tivo Minis. Previous YoY quarter it was $187. And for the 12months ending April 30th in 2014 and 2013 it was $186 and $210. I would attribute the drop in SAC to Tivo Minis and the hardware being cheaper overall to make.

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Old 08-06-2014, 07:28 PM   #102
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I always love it when I subscribe to a thread that is specific to something I have a great interest in, and it turns into a financial debate, losing the content I crave...

Why not discuss gun control laws and android streaming while we're at it. Those are great thread killers too...
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Old 08-06-2014, 10:52 PM   #103
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ACtually, contrary to what I was surmising, maybe MSOs here in the US do hate Tivo.

I skimmed the last quarterly report again and most MSO Tivo subscribers are from overseas.

2.1 million in the UK. 360k in Spain. 40k in Sweden.

Those numbers alone mean at least 2.5 million of 3.5 million of the Tivo MSO subs or roughly 71% are from overseas.
Yeah, because only small MSOs in the US use TiVo, none of the big players.

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Why not discuss gun control laws and android streaming while we're at it. Those are great thread killers too...
The financials are actually related to TiVo. Well, so is Android streaming. But until someone shoots a hole in a TiVo, gun control isn't.
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Old 08-06-2014, 11:24 PM   #104
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The financials are actually related to TiVo. Well, so is Android streaming. But until someone shoots a hole in a TiVo, gun control isn't.
You haven't seen the YouTube video of that yet?

Somebody posted a video of them dropping their TiVoHD off a building roof, then coming down and stomping on it, via the TiVo facebook page.

While I'm not going to be specific, I did personally witness the results of high-powered rifle rounds passing through a TiVo. So, I guess it is relevant, although video of this event does not exist. So, YouTube hunting it is...

Don't bring a TiVo to a gunfight (unless you just want to see TiVo carnage).
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Old 08-07-2014, 08:44 AM   #105
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LOL, yet another thread gone off the rails.
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Old 08-07-2014, 02:41 PM   #106
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The Cablecard requirement had to be lifted.

Look at the Apple TV and how many channels it has that show live content or recent content if you authenticate through your cable subscription. It seems to be home to quite a few cable channels now.

The ATV is practically a set top box. And no cablecard needed.

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Old 08-07-2014, 06:32 PM   #107
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While I'm not going to be specific, I did personally witness the results of high-powered rifle rounds passing through a TiVo. So, I guess it is relevant, although video of this event does not exist. So, YouTube hunting it is...
WHAT?!? Pics or it didn't happen!

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The Cablecard requirement had to be lifted.

Look at the Apple TV and how many channels it has that show live content or recent content if you authenticate through your cable subscription. It seems to be home to quite a few cable channels now.

The ATV is practically a set top box. And no cablecard needed.
Nowhere close. A lot of content is still only available through linear cable. And accessing TV Everywhere content is a PITA compared to TiVo.
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Old 08-07-2014, 06:40 PM   #108
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Look at the Apple TV and how many channels it has...
Doesn't the FCC say it has no power over IPTV? Incumbants can love new tech because their regulators are too slow to adapt the rules to them.

Apple has an inordinate amount of content buying power and and cash. It has been willing to pay to grease otherwise sticky wheels. Isn't this the exact scenario we should be striving to avoid? (content being available to preferred partners, and smaller players who couldn't pay being shut out and then can never sell their boxes)

When the googleTV boxes came out, it could play internet video from webpages that were otherwise playable on a PC. Then the site owners selectively blocked their useragent, dooming the platform.

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Old 08-07-2014, 11:38 PM   #109
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WHAT?!? Pics or it didn't happen!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AYNG2FJOsZw
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Old 08-07-2014, 11:45 PM   #110
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Well, I guess a hard drive upgrade is out of the question? Good luck with the warranty RMA....
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Old 08-08-2014, 12:16 PM   #111
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Nowhere close. A lot of content is still only available through linear cable. And accessing TV Everywhere content is a PITA compared to TiVo.
It is a pain in the arse to go in and out of channel apps. I would probably get annoyed.

But nowhere close? It is creeping up there. It has espn, history channel, lifetime, a&E, ABC news, ABC, Fox, cnbc, HBOGo, Disney XD, weather channel, MLB, nHL, MLS, NBA, ... and counting.

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Old 08-08-2014, 02:22 PM   #112
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That's not me, for the record. I'm a much better shot, from a much greater distance.

Hypothetically, I'd use mercury fulminate points, and there would be nothing left to recognize, or I'd draw a , using full-metal jackets.

Copper core points are fun too.
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Old 08-08-2014, 02:46 PM   #113
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That's not me, for the record. I'm a much better shot, from a much greater distance.

Hypothetically, I'd use mercury fulminate points, and there would be nothing left to recognize, or I'd draw a , using full-metal jackets.

Copper core points are fun too.
I really need to brush up on basic reading skills, I was about to reply and totally go off topic until I re-read your reply and only then noticed your use of the word "Hypothetically".

Since I'm already OT, might as well say I have a couple hundred 22lr tracer rounds that, along with a couple Dtivo's, would make a impressive YouTube video. I'm saving them for something special, just haven't figured out what yet...
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Old 08-08-2014, 05:40 PM   #114
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Well, I stand corrected in my original statement about bullets going through a TiVo!

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It is a pain in the arse to go in and out of channel apps. I would probably get annoyed.

But nowhere close? It is creeping up there. It has espn, history channel, lifetime, a&E, ABC news, ABC, Fox, cnbc, HBOGo, Disney XD, weather channel, MLB, nHL, MLS, NBA, ... and counting.
There's a lot of stuff even among those missing, and the experience just isn't there except for specialized applications.
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Old 08-08-2014, 07:04 PM   #115
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I really need to brush up on basic reading skills, I was about to reply and totally go off topic until I re-read your reply and only then noticed your use of the word "Hypothetically".

Since I'm already OT, might as well say I have a couple hundred 22lr tracer rounds that, along with a couple Dtivo's, would make a impressive YouTube video. I'm saving them for something special, just haven't figured out what yet...
Tracer rounds are illegal. You should have used "hypothetically"!

Seriously, Mythbusters was trying to make car gas tanks explode, and they had to have their FBI and other agents present when they couldn't make a tank explode via bullets, no matter what gun or type of round, and moved to tracer rounds. IIRC, even tracer rounds didn't work.

"When in doubt, C-4" (Hypothetically).

This thread is toast anyway, might as well make the best of it...
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Old 08-09-2014, 11:08 AM   #116
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There's a lot of stuff even among those missing, and the experience just isn't there except for specialized applications.
There is more cable content on an ATV than a MSO box hooked up to an economy cable subscription would provide.

It wouldn't be your main set top box. But this thing could be one of your 3rd or 4th tv.

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Old 08-09-2014, 12:32 PM   #117
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Maybe tangential, but IMHO software encryption is usually more easily broken than the CableCard / hardware schemes.

The industry is going to walk themselves into a nest of piracy. Then copyright holders will lean on the Federal Government to fix it, which is going to be unpleasant somehow.
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Old 08-09-2014, 08:03 PM   #118
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Maybe tangential, but IMHO software encryption is usually more easily broken than the CableCard / hardware schemes.

The industry is going to walk themselves into a nest of piracy. Then copyright holders will lean on the Federal Government to fix it, which is going to be unpleasant somehow.
There was a market for piracy of analog encryption, but I know of nobody that has been able to break the digital encryption, cable card or before the cable card, if some of what used in the cable card and non cable card MSO boxes is built into the TiVo I don't see that piracy will go up.
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Old 08-10-2014, 01:21 AM   #119
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Tracer rounds are illegal. You should have used "hypothetically"!

Seriously, Mythbusters was trying to make car gas tanks explode, and they had to have their FBI and other agents present when they couldn't make a tank explode via bullets, no matter what gun or type of round, and moved to tracer rounds. IIRC, even tracer rounds didn't work.

"When in doubt, C-4" (Hypothetically).

This thread is toast anyway, might as well make the best of it...
Tracers are not illegal in my state, now some shooting ranges don't allow them and one must be careful when it's dry. Biggest problem is finding a safe place to use them. To my knowledge there are only a one state, California were they are ilegall but I would guess there might be others.

What's really cool is some belted tracer rounds my father gave me that he "found" when he was in the service stationed at Berlin back in the 50's. They are rather valuable and rare which despite being offered some rather inticing offers to sell them, I never shot them as being true military tracker rounds , they can ignite fire very easily not to mention as old as they are, I'm not sure how reliable they would be. Their value is just being a collector's item.
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Old 08-10-2014, 06:03 AM   #120
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Tracers are not illegal in my state, now some shooting ranges don't allow them and one must be careful when it's dry. Biggest problem is finding a safe place to use them. To my knowledge there are only a one state, California were they are ilegall but I would guess there might be others.

What's really cool is some belted tracer rounds my father gave me that he "found" when he was in the service stationed at Berlin back in the 50's. They are rather valuable and rare which despite being offered some rather inticing offers to sell them, I never shot them as being true military tracker rounds , they can ignite fire very easily not to mention as old as they are, I'm not sure how reliable they would be. Their value is just being a collector's item.
Makes sense, since Mythbusters films 98% of their content in CA.

< further off-topic content removed >
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Last edited by nooneuknow : 08-11-2014 at 04:47 AM. Reason: removed OT content
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