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Old 06-28-2014, 10:40 PM   #1
Alvysyngr
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S3 began failing and not restarting - bulging caps - need advice

Hello all - One of my 648250B upgraded Tivo's began getting pixelated and then started restarting daily. As of last night it will no longer boot up so i opened her up and lo and behold I have 3 bulging caps but I have a bunch of questions about replacing them.

1 - I have never soldered but am handy. I watched a few Youtube videos and think I can handle desoldering and soldering....am I crazy to do it myself with no experience? Will this cheap kit do the trick?

http://www.amazon.com/dp/B0002LLWZY/...JGGP9LIW&psc=1

2 - What is the white stuff holding some of the caps together? Do I need to reapply this stuff after replacing?

3 - [Found a source]How do I find the exact model/spec of the bulging caps and where do I order? http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb...39#post9456839

here are some photos I took of the 3 bulging caps - any info and advice is really welcomed.

http://imgur.com/a/2ylCp
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Last edited by Alvysyngr : 06-28-2014 at 11:03 PM.
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Old 06-28-2014, 11:01 PM   #2
Alvysyngr
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I found this thread which deciphered a bit of what I was looking for.
http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb...39#post9456839

It appears that the C701, C401 and C402 are bulging so I need to order
C701 2200uF 25V Panasonic EEU-FR1E222L Digikey P14428-ND $1.43
C401 2200uF 6.3V Panasonic EEU-FR0J222 Digikey P14365-ND $0.81
C402 2200uF 6.3V Panasonic EEU-FR0J222 Digikey P14365-ND $0.81

Does that look right to you guys? Since I have 2 other Tivos i am going to order 3 of each (although if I get ambitious I will open all of them up to see if any have other bulging caps)


Here is the entire Caps list found on the thread I supplied:
C401 2200uF 6.3V Panasonic EEU-FR0J222 Digikey P14365-ND $0.81
C402 2200uF 6.3V Panasonic EEU-FR0J222 Digikey P14365-ND $0.81

C601 2200uF 16V Panasonic EEU-FR1C222 Digikey P14402-ND $1.01
C701 2200uF 25V Panasonic EEU-FR1E222L Digikey P14428-ND $1.43
C501 3300uF 10V Panasonic EEU-FR1A332 Digikey P14383-ND $1.01
C502 3300uF 10V Panasonic EEU-FR1A332 Digikey P14383-ND $1.01
C503 3300uF 10V Panasonic EEU-FR1A332 Digikey P14383-ND $1.01

C50? 3300uF 10V Panasonic EEU-FR1A332 Digikey P14383-ND $1.01
C603 470uF 16V Panasonic EEU-FR1C471 Digikey P14394-ND $0.49
C702 470uF 16V Panasonic EEU-FR1C471 Digikey P14394-ND $0.49
C403 1000uF 6.3V Panasonic EEU-FM0J102 Digikey P12340-ND $0.51
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Old 06-29-2014, 07:48 AM   #3
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Since you have a 648 and not the later 652/658 model, you don't have to worry about which version of the power supply you have, so HerronScott's 648 list

http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb...93#post9131293

and its derivatives are what you can safely go by.

Basically you replace every cap except the big 200 Volt one and the little bitty ones.

Go ahead and do all the ones he lists, one at a time and keep notes, and that'll save you going back in a few months when more of the original ones go bad.

The white stuff is glue that holds them in place while they get batch soldered during manufacturing.

You can probably bust it loose with pliers.

Which reminds me, you'll need something to clip off the extra lead length on the replacement caps after you solder them in.

That Elenco set to which you linked doesn't specify the Wattage of the iron.

One of the reviews says it's 30W, another says it's 25, I says it's not quite enough for this particular job because for the negative lead of the capacitors you need something that can put more heat into a solder joint that's part of a large copper ground plane which will be radiating the heat away as you are applying it. That little thing won't stand a chance.

Somewhere in at least one of threads around here I provide a link to the Radio Shack page for a de-soldering iron which they sell. It looks like the unplanned child of a soldering iron and a small turkey baster.

It's one of the few things I'd recommend from Radio Shack.

Since it heats up the solder joint enough to remove the solder with its vacuum bulb, it'll heat up the joint enough to melt solder when installing the replacements.

Here's pretty much the same thing under a different brand name and available from Amazon

http://www.amazon.com/ECG-J-045-DS-W.../dp/B00068IJSG


Although if you've got plenty of spare money, a Weller 100/140 Watt soldering gun will easily do the job and last for years.


As long as you aren't doing this all day every day in poor ventilation, you should probably avoid the extra aggravation and higher melting temperature of lead-free solder.

Get some rosin core 60/40 or 63/37 lead-tin alloy stuff.

One of those plastic tubes of it should be plenty.

Remember that these electrolytic capacitors you'll be installing are polarized. In this particular instance that means the negative lead will go in the hole that's connected to the power supply's common ground.

If you put one in "backwards", nothing good will happen and it'll probably die very loudly when you plug the TiVo in.


The silkscreening on the power supply board where the caps go should be a circle around the 2 holes, with slanted lines over the half where the hole for the negative lead goes.

On the caps themselves, if there isn't a string of + marks down one side to indicate the positive lead, then there will be a stripe or line of - marks to indicate the negative lead.
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Old 06-29-2014, 11:05 AM   #4
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And if all else fails and you screw up the board you can probably get a new one from weaknees. (There might be some they require an exchange on.)
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Old 06-29-2014, 11:22 AM   #5
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Originally Posted by pmiranda View Post
And if all else fails and you screw up the board you can probably get a new one from weaknees. (There might be some they require an exchange on.)
And if you can find a non-lifetimed 648 you can get the board and more for less than what they'd charge.
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Old 06-29-2014, 11:51 AM   #6
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"Alvysyngr" if you run into problems I can recap your P/S if you ship it to me. I'm in Baton Rouge and all I need is the power supply. I have the caps in stock, it's take me about 10 min's to do the job, as for as the white stuff on the caps it's just some stuff to hold the cap in place you do not have to replace it just cut it away and trash it. If you do replace the caps make sure you get the plus on plus and ground on ground. It's not a nice thing to have a cap blow it's top. Just take your time and do one at a time you can do it.
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Old 06-29-2014, 11:51 AM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Alvysyngr View Post
1 - I have never soldered but am handy. I watched a few Youtube videos and think I can handle desoldering and soldering....am I crazy to do it myself with no experience? Will this cheap kit do the trick?

http://www.amazon.com/dp/B0002LLWZY/...JGGP9LIW&psc=1
It's simple in concept but due to the large ground planes, it can be hard to get some of the solder to melt. I use a 75W temperature controlled soldering station and have had some trouble in the past. I found that adding some new solder helped create heat bridges that improved heat conduction. I also used up all the cheap solder that came free with irons I had bought in the past. Once I started tinning my iron with quality solder, I found it desoldered better.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Alvysyngr View Post
I found this thread which deciphered a bit of what I was looking for.
http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb...39#post9456839

It appears that the C701, C401 and C402 are bulging so I need to order
C701 2200uF 25V Panasonic EEU-FR1E222L Digikey P14428-ND $1.43
C401 2200uF 6.3V Panasonic EEU-FR0J222 Digikey P14365-ND $0.81
C402 2200uF 6.3V Panasonic EEU-FR0J222 Digikey P14365-ND $0.81

Does that look right to you guys? Since I have 2 other Tivos i am going to order 3 of each (although if I get ambitious I will open all of them up to see if any have other bulging caps)
The 648250Bs and 652160s have different power supplies with different capacitor values (but some overlap). 652160s have two types of power supplies made by either AcBel or 3Y. You'll have to open it up to see which one you have.

I also recommend replacing every capacitor on the parts lists, not just the bulging ones. Most of the parts lists on this forum aren't complete lists of every electrolytic capacitor on each power supply but a list of all the ones that should be replaced, omitting the ones unlikely to fail.
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Old 06-29-2014, 06:30 PM   #8
Alvysyngr
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Quote:
Originally Posted by unitron View Post
Since it heats up the solder joint enough to remove the solder with its vacuum bulb, it'll heat up the joint enough to melt solder when installing the replacements.
Are you saying I can use this tool to install the new capacitors as well as desolder them? I looked at the tool and am not sure how that would work
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Old 06-30-2014, 01:39 AM   #9
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Actually, the white goop is put on AFTER the power supply has been assembled - it's supposed to be used on big things that need extra mechanical support - big caps and all that because they can flop around during shipping and break off. The goop basically glues them down while having enough give to allow for thermal expansion.
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Old 06-30-2014, 06:22 AM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Alvysyngr View Post
Are you saying I can use this tool to install the new capacitors as well as desolder them? I looked at the tool and am not sure how that would work
It heats up just like a soldering iron, only there's a hole in the tip that communicated to the tube that goes to the rubber squeeze bulb.

You squeeze the bulb, hold it that way, melt the solder, release the bulb, air rushing in to equalize the pressure inside and outside of the bulb sucks up the molten solder (which air cools enough in flight not to burn a hole in the bulb).

The deal with soldering is this:

You have two or more pieces of metal you wish to bond together mechanically and electrically. (In this case the copper around the hole and the capacitor lead sticking through that hole.) You put those pieces of metal in as much physical contact as you can and heat them simultaneously until they get hot enough to melt solder--commonly explained by old techs to new ones as "heat the work, not the solder". Without letting the pieces of metal move relative to each other you flow the melting solder onto them, then smoothly withdraw the heat source and allow the solder joint to cool undisturbed.

In reality, sometimes you cheat a little bit on the heat the work, not the solder part in order to get the process started.

If it were a new board or if the old solder had been well removed from the copper around the hole, you might heat that up and flow some solder onto it to "wet" or "tin" it before adding the capacitor lead.

When removing solder, you just get it heated up however you can--sometimes melting a little new solder into the blob of old solder helps get it to melting.

I'm not saying the de-soldering iron can substitute for a soldering iron in all cases, but if money's tight you can get it to do double duty on this particular job.

Otherwise, you might want to go for a high wattage iron or gun and one of those spring loaded "solder suckers".
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Old 06-30-2014, 06:24 AM   #11
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Originally Posted by Worf View Post
Actually, the white goop is put on AFTER the power supply has been assembled - it's supposed to be used on big things that need extra mechanical support - big caps and all that because they can flop around during shipping and break off. The goop basically glues them down while having enough give to allow for thermal expansion.
In cases where the underside of a board is going to be wave soldered I think the goop is to help hold in place during soldering the heavy things that might fall over .
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Old 06-30-2014, 01:05 PM   #12
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unitron your right, all that goop does is hold the caps in place as it runs over the solder pot. I looked at the solder pen you are talking about and it's perfect for a newbie kind of hard to mess it up too bad with the solder sucker bulb on the pen. I use to have one why back in the day when radio shack use to sale real parts not cell phones. Do you remember back in the day when tubes were in every TV? Shack had tube testers in every store. I got my hands on one but sold it later and boy do I wish I still had it.
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Old 06-30-2014, 04:36 PM   #13
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unitron your right, all that goop does is hold the caps in place as it runs over the solder pot. I looked at the solder pen you are talking about and it's perfect for a newbie kind of hard to mess it up too bad with the solder sucker bulb on the pen. I use to have one why back in the day when radio shack use to sale real parts not cell phones. Do you remember back in the day when tubes were in every TV? Shack had tube testers in every store. I got my hands on one but sold it later and boy do I wish I still had it.
I remember when the drugstore had a tube tester.
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Old 06-30-2014, 08:20 PM   #14
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I remember when the drugstore had a tube tester.
Now we are showing our age...
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Old 07-18-2014, 11:49 PM   #15
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Alvysyngr did you get that P/S working?

Glad to hear your up and running and oh I forgot your drive was off line for a few weeks and there was a update plus all the guide data so just 2 reboots not bad. Glad your back online my friend and when your ready just let me know...

Last edited by timhbtr53 : 07-19-2014 at 06:53 PM.
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