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Old 12-31-2010, 03:52 PM   #31
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Quote:
Originally Posted by crxssi View Post
True. And how much will be saved if the hard drive in an out-of-warranty, lifetime, Premiere dies due to the constant thermal stress of being spun down and up hundreds or thousands of times?
And what is the spin-up power draw? The 4.7 watts above was for an operating drive. Haven't checked recently, but in my older computers, the power draw to spin up the platters was 3-5x the running draw.
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Old 12-31-2010, 04:24 PM   #32
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Originally Posted by teewow View Post
That google report can be read either way ... idle drives don't necessarily fail more often than a heavily used drive.
Nobody is disputing that an idle drive fails more than an active drive. Only that spinning up/down a drive will cause early failure and spinning it down is probably the only way to gain any meaningful further power savings. I think TiVo did a good job on having a running system use very low power.

Quote:
On a related note, my Tivo is connected to a UPS. Without a UPS, a hard drive that is constantly thrashing is too much of a risk.
Mine is too. I think people are insane who don't place things like their computer and TiVo on a UPS. It not only serves to keep it from crashing in short power failures, it also filters and prevents damaging spikes. Fortunately, all my computer and A/V equipment are in one place, so *everything* is connected to a single, larger UPS- printer, monitor, computer, modem, router, amp, TiVo, Wii, 52" LCD, DVD, phone, etc.

Now if they can just provide us with a method to backup our damn settings, ratings, channels, and passes...
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Old 01-20-2011, 08:05 PM   #33
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Big Grin every little bit counts

Teewow's suggestion that the device could cut back on energy use if it didn't buffer while in standby mode seems like an idea worthy of implementation.

Energy consumption by electronics in our home has gone from 8% of our resi bills in in the 1990s to 41% today. Exactly how much of this is from the 40" TV, how much is the DVR, the XBox, the Laptop, vs AC Adapters charging up our mobile gadget is a product of how much power each device uses and the number hours the device is used or is allowed to consume idle power. This 2007 NRDC Study reports annual consumption by device.
  • We now know that the XBox is a big power hog compared to the play station and Wii.
  • We know that there is a pretty big range when it comes to power consumption of different TVs too.

Teewow is not the only one suggesting that TiVo could do better with their software to decrease the device's energy consumption.

http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb...d.php?t=427536
http://fivepercent.us/2010/09/22/its...save-a-little/

So why nitpick about a few watts... poor TiVo? I say every little bit counts, and when you add it up across millions of households, it counts a lot! If we follow the logic of "it's only a few Watts difference," or "look how much your 40" TV uses in comparison," then we shouldn't worry about idle standby power from stupid Wall Warts (AC->DC Power Adapters leaching power even when they aren't actively charging a device.)

In my mind: AC Adapter Idle Current, and TiVo 24/7 Buffering are two examples of needless power consumption and we can do better.

In the case of TiVo, the device knows very well what times you use it, and what times you've asked it to record programs. Seems quite trivial to me to put the device into a deeper power savings mode from Midnight to 8 AM (configurable by the user of course), and certainly not to Buffer when in Standby mode. I'm sure Wake-on-Lan can handle any software updates that the service needs to push to their clients.

This concept of intelligently throttling back power consumption in tune with typical usage patterns makes a lot of sense to me. Same thing can happen with appliances from the likes of GE, Panasonic, LG, etc. In fact that's exactly the type of smart energy saving functionality they were showing off this months at CES.

I'm not an expert on HDD longevity, and don't have any comment on the Google HD Study, but isn't storage going to move to Solid State Drives anyway?

I hope if there is a full transition to on-demand and streaming (Google, Apple, Boxee, Roku, etc) that it will result in lower power since the device will no longer be "always on"
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Old 05-18-2014, 07:06 PM   #34
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Originally Posted by ltxi View Post
We're debating the trauma of a 3 watt/24x7 power drain. Wth...this is just nuts.
buffering 24/7/365 has to reduce the life of the hard drive and TiVo unit.

no reason to buffer when nobody is watching


stupid beyond belief
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Old 05-18-2014, 08:31 PM   #35
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My S2 has been buffering for over 9 years...
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Old 05-18-2014, 09:13 PM   #36
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Originally Posted by crxssi View Post
True. And how much will be saved if the hard drive in an out-of-warranty, lifetime, Premiere dies due to the constant thermal stress of being spun down and up hundreds or thousands of times?
Ding Ding Ding! We have a winner!! Please pull around to the back so you can claim your prize, a working Tivo Premiere with lifetime.

Last edited by christheman : 05-18-2014 at 09:20 PM.
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Old 05-18-2014, 09:15 PM   #37
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Originally Posted by lazarus000 View Post
buffering 24/7/365 has to reduce the life of the hard drive and TiVo unit.

no reason to buffer when nobody is watching


stupid beyond belief
Personally I'd rather it "buffer" when I'm NOT watching...
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Old 05-18-2014, 09:19 PM   #38
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My S2 has been buffering for over 9 years...
It's a beautiful thing, isn't it. And here's to many more years of constant non-stop buffering.
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Old 05-19-2014, 06:21 PM   #39
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Originally Posted by lazarus000 View Post
buffering 24/7/365 has to reduce the life of the hard drive and TiVo unit.

no reason to buffer when nobody is watching


stupid beyond belief
Not true. What is stupid is not understanding how things work. My oldest Tivo has been running on the same HD for 9 years as well. My PC has been running almost 24/7 on the same HD for 8 years. Google has done studies showing no correlation between HD life expectancy and intensity of use. In fact, they showed that lesser used drives tend to have a higher failure rate at the 3 year mark. But, hey, don't let facts get in the way of an ignorant argument.
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Old 05-19-2014, 09:33 PM   #40
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lazarus000 View Post
buffering 24/7/365 has to reduce the life of the hard drive and TiVo unit.

no reason to buffer when nobody is watching


stupid beyond belief
Just because the software is buffering data to the hard doesn't have anything to do with the longevity of the hardware involved. For modern hard drives, it's subjects the components to more stress by the varying temperature changes and stress of starting and deactivating the hard drive and even the lowest quality hard drives are designed for 24/7 operation. The hard drives that series 4 & 5 Tivo devices use are designated for constant operation with the latest "green" certified hard drives using half as much electrical consumption than the hard drives used in Tivos 10 years ago.The amount of electrical amperage consumption would actually be increased if the hard drive spun down and back up every time the Tivo was activated.

I doubt seriously if the hardware and software engineers who designed the method the Tivo uses could be considered "stupid beyond belief", perhaps you should create a better DVR? It amazes me those who are so critical of things which they have little or no understanding of, a little respect goes a long way.
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Old 05-29-2014, 03:02 AM   #41
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Of course you are right. But when your TV uses 100 to 200 watts, the AMP uses 50+ watts, the computer uses 250 watts, etc, it just doesn't seem worth the effort to spend time turning on/off standby to save 3 watts. Even if it could save 3 watts a day, 20 hours a day, every day, in my area that is about $0.19 of electricity in a month

Further speculation- If it got that savings by spinning down the drive, and it shortened the life of the drive even a few percent, the ultimate cost would be far higher over the would-be life of the box.

Not that I am against energy savings, but one could save 2500%+ as much electricity by changing a single high-use incandescent light bulb to florescent.
Well said. I've found that those who complain about 3 watts are penny wise and pound foolish in their energy use. Further, if one is really serious about "green": update major appliances ever 2 years or so, but better still, don't use any, hand wash and hang dry, No PC, No TV, never use A/C nor central heat, and we could close down so many polluting power plants that we needn't worry about climate change and truly be "green" living off the earth as indigenous peoples encourage us to do. But if 3 watts makes someone feel "green" to justify and enable their energy hogging, air polluting lifestyle/devices, so be it.
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Old 06-05-2014, 09:11 PM   #42
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Well said. I've found that those who complain about 3 watts are penny wise and pound foolish in their energy use. Further, if one is really serious about "green": update major appliances ever 2 years or so, but better still, don't use any, hand wash and hang dry, No PC, No TV, never use A/C nor central heat, and we could close down so many polluting power plants that we needn't worry about climate change and truly be "green" living off the earth as indigenous peoples encourage us to do. But if 3 watts makes someone feel "green" to justify and enable their energy hogging, air polluting lifestyle/devices, so be it.
^this
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Old 06-06-2014, 12:14 PM   #43
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Old 06-06-2014, 02:09 PM   #44
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Just tune every tuner to a nonexistent channel, like 9999, 9998, 9997, 9996, etc. Voila! No buffering. The hard drive will still be spinning, and still do background maintenance tasks, but will never spin down.

I feel this method does save a minute amount of electricity, due to not having to process the buffers, nor write the buffers to the drive.

I sometimes make a manual repeating recording for each tuner of 1 minute each, for non-existent channels, and just place them at the bottom of my SPs. Since no signal will be there, no entries will appear in My Shows, and the tuners will stay "parked" until something needs to record.

If anybody is holding their breath, waiting for TiVo to allow us to turn it off any other way, expect to die waiting. It's not going to happen, TTBOMK.
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Old 06-06-2014, 07:16 PM   #45
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I was thinking someone could make an automated process to autoswitch the tuners via a TCP remote control.

This would have a 2nd use, of filling the live buffers with actual favorite channels, instead of the last tuned channel.
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Old 06-06-2014, 08:08 PM   #46
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I was thinking someone could make an automated process to autoswitch the tuners via a TCP remote control.

This would have a 2nd use, of filling the live buffers with actual favorite channels, instead of the last tuned channel.
KMTTG has it as a legacy function for speeding up transfers between old TiVos. It still works, but is limited to two tuners, tuning to what channels you select. It does change two tuners on my base Roamios.

It's buried in the options as something that can be toggled to automatic, when a transfer starts, or by pressing the "test" button.

I keep forgetting to ask if the author would be willing to make it support more tuners, and not require a transfer, or the options test, to use it...
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Old 06-06-2014, 09:09 PM   #47
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KMTTG ...
I keep forgetting to ask if the author would be willing to make it support more tuners, and not require a transfer, or the options test, to use it...
That could be more elegant because when I did a little experimentation last time this subject came up, it appeared the Tivo would ignore some kinds of tune commands via TCP remote, when it didn't have the channel number in the guide. (so i had to use IRCODE instead which worked).
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Old 06-22-2014, 09:34 AM   #48
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I am glad to hear Brian Williams say the cable and satellite industry have agreed to do something about their power hungry boxes. TiVo uses less power than many, but TiVo should also provide options to the user to allow using less power and shutdown or go into a very low power state if the user chooses to do so. There is no need to stay fully powered up all the time for many users.

The Great Cable Box Energy Drain: http://www.nbcnews.com/watch/nightly...n-283174979632
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Old 06-22-2014, 01:53 PM   #49
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I am glad to hear Brian Williams say the cable and satellite industry have agreed to do something about their power hungry boxes. TiVo uses less power than many, but TiVo should also provide options to the user to allow using less power and shutdown or go into a very low power state if the user chooses to do so. There is no need to stay fully powered up all the time for many users.

The Great Cable Box Energy Drain: http://www.nbcnews.com/watch/nightly...n-283174979632
From the Roamio Hard Drive Upgrade Info thread, with some shared relevance to why we might want to at least have an option to limit Live TV buffering to a selectable number of tuners (read down in my reply to get to the relevance):

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Originally Posted by duckman2000 View Post
WD seems to be saying the Purple drive are optimized for Surveillance systems and are NOT the right choice for DVRs.

Regarding WD Purple drives for Tivo or DVR applications, this was asked in the WD Forum and a WD Staff member said this:

" The WD Purple drives are for surveillance systems.
You can see more information on the link below:
http://www.wdc.com/en/products/surveillance/

The line suitable for DVR's is the following:
http://www.wdc.com/en/products/products.aspx?id=170 "
As noted in one or more of my past posts, I came to the same initial impression.

I feel it is worth noting that the AV-GP line, as originally marketed, did not include PVR/DVR use, only surveillance (It was added, not that long ago).

One thing the AV-GP was never marketed for was NAS and/or array use, which the "Purple" is heavily marketed for.

The numbers that truly matter are how many TB/year the drives are supposed to handle. I did the math on "unofficial" 120-150TB/yr RED NAS, and came up with "in excess of the rating", for four tuners at a modest 5TB/hr per tuner for high def. Even the published drives are rated lower than what a 4 tuner unit recording HD comes out to (~200 TB/yr). Do the math on six tuners.

From AnandTech:

"We had covered the launch of the WD Se hard drives for data centers and high end NAS units in May. One of the advertised aspects was the 180 TB/yr workload capacity. Western Digital is unable to commit to a workload capacity for the WD Red lineup because of the varying environmental conditions under which consumer NAS units operate. That said, WD expects (unofficially) the Red drives to be able to handle workloads between 120 and 150 TB/year."

Whole article": http://www.anandtech.com/show/7257/w...nd-25-versions

I'm seriously wondering how underrated a stock 500GB 4-tuner roamio AV hard drive is (IMHO, must be). The smaller the drive, the more each sector is overwritten per year, logically lowering the TB/yr rating, TTBOMK.

I'm also seriously wondering how well plain Green, non-AV, non 24/7 marketed drives will hold up.

It also would seem like (to me) one of the best ways to determine the true life (in P/E operations) of SSDs (Solid State Drives), is to put them into TiVos and see how long each one lasts, then do some math.

From now on, I'll be trying to keep idle tuners on SD music channels. A 4hr recording of one comes out to less than 600MB (yes, MB) total size.

If TiVo provided a way to stop live buffering, preferably with a way to specify how many tuners to allow to live buffer, I'd jump on it...
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Last edited by nooneuknow : 06-22-2014 at 02:38 PM.
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Old 06-23-2014, 10:46 AM   #50
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If you're only recording prime-time while on vacation add a manual timer to cut power @ 12 or 1 AM and turn back on @ 7:45 PM.
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