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Old 05-08-2014, 02:32 PM   #271
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Quote:
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Do you two (bicker and Diana Collins), and/or the law, have agreed-upon definitions of 'signal' and 'content'? From a technical standpoint there seems to be room for ambiguity. For example, does 'signal' mean the radio-frequency carrier modulated, for example using 8-VSB modulation with the transport stream that defines the video signal? (Or content?). Does 'content' mean the entire sequence of video, including commercials? Or does it mean just program content, which is the case in some contexts?

Any further discussion without clear definitions is of questionable value.
A legal definition? No.

But the point I was trying to make is that all of the rules allowing individuals to receive and record broadcast content without additional charge is based upon the reception of a signal, not access to the content. Obviously, once received, the content is governed by regular copyright law. In the case of video content, this allows the individual to view, record and playback the content for their own personal enjoyment within the home. This is sometimes referred to (somewhat inaccurately) as "fair use." Any public display or re-transmission of the content, particularly in conjunction with a commercial enterprise, is prohibited without the express written consent of the copyright holder. This is why bars pay more for cable and satellite than an individual pays for the same content. In other words, once the broadcast has been received, the content is no longer "free to use" by anyone other than the original viewer.

There is no such thing as "free" access to the broadcasters' content, only to the broadcast signal. Copyright law ALWAYS applies.

If the receiving entity is NOT an individual, but rather a commercial enterprise of any kind, then there is no law, rule, judgement or judicial opinion that allows the reception and use of public broadcasts without the express written consent of the copyright holder.

Therefore, it would seem that the only basis upon which the Court could find that Aereo is NOT violating copyright law is to find that Aereo is not receiving, using or re-transmitting the content. IMHO, that is a very difficult conclusion to draw, based upon the technology used and some of the statements made (some of Aereo's own comments included).
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Old 05-08-2014, 02:32 PM   #272
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Comcast is supposed to be using a cloud based dvr in Philly and Chicago with their X2 platform. And soon they plan to roll it out in other areas.

And when I had a BoxeeTV 1.5 years ago, it also had a cloud based Dvr. I tried it out with hundreds of recordings in the cloud.
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Old 05-08-2014, 07:48 PM   #273
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In Aereo's case, the cloud-based DVR makes sense, with MPEG-4 delivery over the internet, but for a cable company, the cloud-based DVR is idiotic, as it is a total waste of bandwidth that could be used for more channels, faster internet, and better HD quality. It also gives the user even less control. Obviously the idea situation is the customer owning their own DVR, like we all do.
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Old 05-09-2014, 07:04 AM   #274
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In Aereo's case, the cloud-based DVR makes sense, with MPEG-4 delivery over the internet, but for a cable company, the cloud-based DVR is idiotic, as it is a total waste of bandwidth that could be used for more channels, faster internet, and better HD quality. It also gives the user even less control. Obviously the idea situation is the customer owning their own DVR, like we all do.
From the cable company's perspective, a cloud based DVR saves a ton of money. No local DVR need be purchased, stocked, delivered, installed, refurbished or supported. The DVR is just a piece of software running at their facility. The fact that it also gives them control of playback (they can sell "no skip" protection to advertisers) and the ability to gather truly accurate stats of what is recorded, and how it is watched (great data to sell back to broadcasters and advertisers) are both bonus benefits. Far from being "idiotic," it is a potentially large source of both additional income and reduced cost. That's the Holy Grail of business investments.
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Old 05-09-2014, 11:34 AM   #275
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it is a potentially large source of both additional income and reduced cost.
They will also make sure consumers pay MORE for it. It's win win for them.
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Old 05-09-2014, 12:22 PM   #276
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Yep, yet another reason for them to hate Cablecard, or any standard IP access method that takes away control of the user experience.

It's a damn shame that the FCC keeps letting them foot-drag out a card successor, it's not like it's rocket science.
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Old 05-09-2014, 06:57 PM   #277
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From the cable company's perspective, a cloud based DVR saves a ton of money. No local DVR need be purchased, stocked, delivered, installed, refurbished or supported. The DVR is just a piece of software running at their facility. The fact that it also gives them control of playback (they can sell "no skip" protection to advertisers) and the ability to gather truly accurate stats of what is recorded, and how it is watched (great data to sell back to broadcasters and advertisers) are both bonus benefits. Far from being "idiotic," it is a potentially large source of both additional income and reduced cost. That's the Holy Grail of business investments.
They still need local boxes to be the endpoints, and now on top of that, they have to pay to run a huge farm of servers that before they just paid for once, handed out, and the customer had to pay for electricity and cooling. They could control playback on an MSO-provided DVR if they really wanted to. They control everything on the box.

The bottom line though, is that it's a massive waste of bandwidth. It's like VOD-izing everything from a network perspective, and it requires a huge investment in node-splitting just to support the bandwidth to do it during peak usage hours. Even VOD is a huge waste of bandwidth, although stupid customers seem to like it, since apparently having a TiVo or DVR with Season Passes is too complicated for a lot of people.
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Old 05-09-2014, 07:18 PM   #278
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The bottom line though, is that it's a massive waste of bandwidth. It's like VOD-izing everything from a network perspective, and it requires a huge investment in node-splitting just to support the bandwidth to do it during peak usage hours. Even VOD is a huge waste of bandwidth, although stupid customers seem to like it, since apparently having a TiVo or DVR with Season Passes is too complicated for a lot of people.
Or VOD is used for people that hear about a good program after it played, or a news break-in caused the loss of a recorded program, I don't use VOD much but it is handy to have if I don't have to pay extra for it.

If cable takes control of what we watch not when we watch than commercials will be in the picture as they are with VOD in many cases. Commercial skip is one of the important reasons I have a TiVo.
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Old 05-10-2014, 01:37 AM   #279
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They still need local boxes to be the endpoints,
This could be done via a Roku or other cheap device (even a $35 Chromecast). Of course with a cable company a Chromecast would cost $8 per month.
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Old 05-10-2014, 05:07 AM   #280
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The companies in this space employ value-based pricing.
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The term is used when prices are based on the value of a product as perceived from the customer's perspective. The perceived value determines the customer's willingness to pay and thus the maximum price a company can charge for its product.
http://lexicon.ft.com/Term?term=value_based-pricing

With value-based pricing, none of the measures discussed with affect the pricing in the long-term, since only making the product less valuable would lower pricing, overall. What we're talking about, therefore, is just moving the cost around, from one bill to some other bill.
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Old 05-10-2014, 11:36 AM   #281
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The companies in this space employ value-based pricing.http://lexicon.ft.com/Term?term=value_based-pricing

With value-based pricing, none of the measures discussed with affect the pricing in the long-term, since only making the product less valuable would lower pricing, overall. What we're talking about, therefore, is just moving the cost around, from one bill to some other bill.
Interestingly enough, I hear very few people refer to their cable bill as "good value". Pretty much everyone is disgusted at the cost based on what they are actually receiving.
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Old 05-10-2014, 11:48 AM   #282
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Interestingly enough, I hear very few people refer to their cable bill as "good value". Pretty much everyone is disgusted at the cost based on what they are actually receiving.
I would say mine is a good value compared to what it cost and the channels I had in the early 2000s with DirecTV. I pay 30% less now with FiOs than I did back then. Plus I have many more channels and many many times the number of HD channels that I had back then.

There is no question it's a better value for me now than it was in the early 2000s
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Old 05-10-2014, 12:13 PM   #283
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They still need local boxes to be the endpoints, and now on top of that, they have to pay to run a huge farm of servers that before they just paid for once, handed out, and the customer had to pay for electricity and cooling. They could control playback on an MSO-provided DVR if they really wanted to. They control everything on the box.

The bottom line though, is that it's a massive waste of bandwidth. It's like VOD-izing everything from a network perspective, and it requires a huge investment in node-splitting just to support the bandwidth to do it during peak usage hours. Even VOD is a huge waste of bandwidth, although stupid customers seem to like it, since apparently having a TiVo or DVR with Season Passes is too complicated for a lot of people.
The MSOs love network DVR. Everything is eventually moving to all VOD except for basically live events, and everything is moving to IP-based distribution. By putting it in the "cloud" the set tops they put in homes can be drastically cheaper than the boxes they put in homes today. Also, the storage requirements are drastically lower (the only need ONE copy of American idol instead of three million copies of it). Plus, they can insert their own ads, get better usage stats, prevent you from FF through ads, and most importantly of all, provide you with access to your recordings on any device (phone, tablet, computer, TV)
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Old 05-10-2014, 12:18 PM   #284
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The MSOs love network DVR. Everything is eventually moving to all VOD except for basically live events, and everything is moving to IP-based distribution. By putting it in the "cloud" the set tops they put in homes can be drastically cheaper than the boxes they put in homes today. Also, the storage requirements are drastically lower (the only need ONE copy of American idol instead of three million copies of it). Plus, they can insert their own ads, get better usage stats, prevent you from FF through ads, and most importantly of all, provide you with access to your recordings on any device (phone, tablet, computer, TV)
prevent you from FF through ads, That would be a killer for me, I would most likely go to all premium Ch. without ads.
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Old 05-10-2014, 12:34 PM   #285
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The MSOs love network DVR. Everything is eventually moving to all VOD except for basically live events, and everything is moving to IP-based distribution. By putting it in the "cloud" the set tops they put in homes can be drastically cheaper than the boxes they put in homes today. Also, the storage requirements are drastically lower (the only need ONE copy of American idol instead of three million copies of it). Plus, they can insert their own ads, get better usage stats, prevent you from FF through ads, and most importantly of all, provide you with access to your recordings on any device (phone, tablet, computer, TV)
But right now, the way the cloud DVRs work, is that they each have a separate recording for each DVR. They don't share recordings between people. I thought they found that it was illegal to share the recording anyway? Which was the reason that there were using individual recordings for each DVR.
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Old 05-10-2014, 12:40 PM   #286
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But right now, the way the cloud DVRs work, is that they each have a separate recording for each DVR. They don't share recordings between people. I thought they found that it was illegal to share the recording anyway? Which was the reason that there were using individual recordings for each DVR.
Right, but eventually they'll get to the "utopia" of one recording for everyone. They just have to work out the licensing, which the programmers will want to do in order to get things like no fast forward through commercials. Cablevision got sued because they didn't ask for permission first.

Eventually non-live events will just be VOD, and they'll just be made available for viewing at a predetermined time. There won't even be any recording involved.
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Old 05-10-2014, 12:45 PM   #287
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But right now, the way the cloud DVRs work, is that they each have a separate recording for each DVR. They don't share recordings between people. I thought they found that it was illegal to share the recording anyway? Which was the reason that there were using individual recordings for each DVR.
My guess is that they are still using deduplication on the backend SAN which would roughly achieve the same space savings but let each user still have their own "copy".

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Old 05-10-2014, 12:49 PM   #288
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But right now, the way the cloud DVRs work, is that they each have a separate recording for each DVR. They don't share recordings between people. I thought they found that it was illegal to share the recording anyway? Which was the reason that there were using individual recordings for each DVR.
Logical baby steps towards the desired goal of one copy.

First, you have one copy per consumer. Argue it's no different than if the consumer recorded it. Get folks used to that idea.

Then, you happen to store them on a storage medium that does dynamic deduplication. It's logically the same as storing separate copies, the disk is just smart enough to detect and merge duplicate data into references. Get folks used to that idea.

Then after some time, you change your architecture to simply save one copy. It's logically the same as saving multiple copies on deduplicating storage. And you've snuck your way across the finish line.

How the model eventually works out bandwidth wise (+/-) I have no idea. I've read too many disparate analysis's, both here and elsewhere to have an opinion on which is right. But the storage side is absolutely obtainable over the next decade as long as it's done in baby steps.
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Old 05-10-2014, 12:50 PM   #289
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provide you with access to your recordings on any device (phone, tablet, computer, TV)
If anything the networks and cable companies have shown they DON'T want to allow access across devices. They have discriminated based on device. I can't access HBO or Showtime on Roku just because Comcast chooses not to allow it. I have to assume Comcast extorted money out of other companies and Roku wouldn't pay up. There is no reason whatsoever not to allow it, other than Comcast wants to be a D***.

The networks have engaged in the same practices by not allowing network owned Hulu to be viewed on mobile browser even though there is no technical limitation.
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Old 05-10-2014, 02:19 PM   #290
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If anything the networks and cable companies have shown they DON'T want to allow access across devices. They have discriminated based on device. I can't access HBO or Showtime on Roku just because Comcast chooses not to allow it. I have to assume Comcast extorted money out of other companies and Roku wouldn't pay up. There is no reason whatsoever not to allow it, other than Comcast wants to be a D***.

The networks have engaged in the same practices by not allowing network owned Hulu to be viewed on mobile browser even though there is no technical limitation.
Well, obviously they will make you pay for it, but that doesn't mean it won't be an option or that the architecture to allow that to happen isn't where they're headed.
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Old 05-10-2014, 07:19 PM   #291
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Interestingly enough, I hear very few people refer to their cable bill as "good value".
If you pay a bill for teevee that you don't think is a good value, you're crazy.

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Pretty much everyone is disgusted at the cost based on what they are actually receiving.
People love to complain. Talk is cheap; gauge people's true feelings by their actions.
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Old 05-10-2014, 07:42 PM   #292
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Interestingly enough, I hear very few people refer to their cable bill as "good value". Pretty much everyone is disgusted at the cost based on what they are actually receiving.
Considering that people are only averaging watching 17 channels out of the 100 or more they receive, I think they're mostly disgusted with having to pay for all the others.
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Old 05-10-2014, 07:55 PM   #293
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Considering that people are only averaging watching 17 channels out of the 100 or more they receive, I think they're mostly disgusted with having to pay for all the others.
I find it hard to tell, with triple play, what I pay for each service, my package starts at $139 inc HBO STZ and 100Mb/s internet. With a 2nd full tel line and 4 cable cards and all extra taxes etc. the total cost does come out to $190/month. I was paying ATT about $89 for both my land lines when I switched to Comcast many years ago.
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Old 05-10-2014, 08:23 PM   #294
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I find it hard to tell, with triple play, what I pay for each service...
I'm pretty sure that's absolutely intentional on their part.
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Old 05-10-2014, 11:57 PM   #295
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If you pay a bill for teevee that you don't think is a good value, you're crazy.

People love to complain. Talk is cheap; gauge people's true feelings by their actions.
Looks like people are acting.

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2014-0...ing-gains.html
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Old 05-11-2014, 12:10 AM   #296
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I find it hard to tell, with triple play, what I pay for each service, my package starts at $139 inc HBO STZ and 100Mb/s internet. With a 2nd full tel line and 4 cable cards and all extra taxes etc. the total cost does come out to $190/month. I was paying ATT about $89 for both my land lines when I switched to Comcast many years ago.
On FiOS it's written down on your monthly bill. There is no confusion what each product costs with the triple or quadruple play. Since they specifically break out the costs for you after showing what your bundle price is. Then they apply any discounts you have. Of course it didn't used to be this way. But it's been this way for awhile now.
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Old 05-11-2014, 12:59 AM   #297
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On FiOS it's written down on your monthly bill. There is no confusion what each product costs with the triple or quadruple play. Since they specifically break out the costs for you after showing what your bundle price is. Then they apply any discounts you have. Of course it didn't used to be this way. But it's been this way for awhile now.
Comcast does not do that but I would guess the discount depends on you getting the triple play.
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Old 05-11-2014, 04:43 AM   #298
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Considering that people are only averaging watching 17 channels out of the 100 or more they receive, I think they're mostly disgusted with having to pay for all the others.
Which is, of course, irrational, on two levels. If 17 channels are worth $X, then surely 117 channels are worth $X (along with the fact that if neither is worth $X then of course they wouldn't be paying for cable).

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Looks like people are acting.

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... subscriptions would decline to 100.8 million from 100.9 million in 2013. ...
http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2014-0...ing-gains.html
No. It doesn't. That's the point. The decrease is so slight that it is best for the industry to keep things as they are. I suspect that subscriptions would have to decrease by at least 1% to even be worthy of being discussed (the decrease is far less than that), and even then it would have to be apart from any migration to a higher cost broadband plan.

Furthermore, remember that much of the packaging is imposed by the content distributors: "You must carry X Y and Z on the basic package if you want to offer A." So that won't change unless people cutting the cord actually stop watching A (the valuable channel, i.e., ESPN). If people get the channels through some other means, where the distributor gets roughly the same amount for A that they got for X Y Z and A through cable, it's fine by them.

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Old 05-11-2014, 10:16 AM   #299
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A very, very large percentage of people already don't watch ESPN. Those are the people that subsidize the cost. I know personally I would love to get rid of all the extraneous ESPN Channels. I only only ever watch the main one and that is only a few times a year during football.
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Old 05-11-2014, 10:22 AM   #300
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Or VOD is used for people that hear about a good program after it played, or a news break-in caused the loss of a recorded program, I don't use VOD much but it is handy to have if I don't have to pay extra for it.

If cable takes control of what we watch not when we watch than commercials will be in the picture as they are with VOD in many cases. Commercial skip is one of the important reasons I have a TiVo.
Usually stuff is re-run. I suppose on a rare occasion it could be useful for that.

That's the problem. Many VOD streams already are no-FF. And they also control when the show is available, and for how long. With TiVo, it's whenever I want it to be.

Quote:
Originally Posted by aadam101 View Post
This could be done via a Roku or other cheap device (even a $35 Chromecast). Of course with a cable company a Chromecast would cost $8 per month.
Unlikely that it would work very well.
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