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Old 03-09-2014, 03:03 PM   #1711
ggieseke
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FWIW here's my two cents:

I don't *think* it has anything to do with upgraded drives.

I doubt that many other TiVo owners have folded, spindled or mutilated their drives as much as I have and every one I own is rock solid except for the video glitch caused by overlapping recordings on the same channel. I have never had a spontaneous reboot or even a C133 error.

Lets make it a comprehensive thread that includes every variable including upgraded drives, TAs, CableCARD firmware, network configuration, cable provider (if any), location, and anything else we can think of. A pattern may emerge.
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Old 03-09-2014, 06:08 PM   #1712
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ggieseke View Post
FWIW here's my two cents:

I don't *think* it has anything to do with upgraded drives.
I would agree, my Roamio Pro and XL4 are the worst rebooting offenders and both have stock HDDs.
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Old 03-10-2014, 01:20 AM   #1713
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It seems that the KS54 SMART tests on my base Roamios are incapable of detecting that my WD Red NAS 3TB WD30EFRX drives have completed the SMART extended and offline data gathering tests. The result is the test screen for each just running on for days, until I abort the testing. Maybe the tests complete, and the TiVo doesn't get the memo... It's hard to tell...

The drives test fine on a computer test platform, with no issues at all.

I did a KS57 and KS58, which pruned down the number of recordings in two folders to 167 each (was over 300 each). At the same time, my drive usage bar on the TiVo which was stuck at 50% while rebooting daily, jumped to 52%, without any added recordings.

Now I'll have to let it run and see if the daily reboots continue.

I also noticed KS52 is no longer valid - which makes sense, given the new nature of where the base operating system resides (on flash memory).

I'm curious if any of the prior discontinued KS number codes work again, like the one that was supposed to force a download of the current software, or if there are any new ones.

I'm not curious enough to just start trying all two number combinations and hoping I don't brick a Roamio.

Anybody feeling adventurous?

That's all I have for now. It *seems* that the issues are not with the drives. But, I'd sure like to know if anybody can replicate my issues with the KS54 SMART tests, or say they get different results.

I used the long way to the tests, by selecting the drive, and individually selecting each test, not the short way that runs all tests sequentially, on any drive(s) it can detect, FWIW.

I don't think it would make a difference, but maybe I'll try the short way and see what happens the next chance I get, after taking a few days to see if I catch any reboots occurring again.

I'm also seeing some sort of timing issue with the KS54 SMART tests, where all my prior TiVos would update the "elapsed time" exactly when the "next check in 5 minutes", polling timer hit zero, but my Roamio is updating the elapsed time almost randomly (in mid-countdown), and the elapsed time is off (like something can't keep the time or the syncing of time/drive polling).

I'm not seeing a huge amount of people pouring into anywhere to report reboots, like I was expecting, after the initial batch that made it feel like a wave of reports was due to come crashing in...

Last edited by nooneuknow : 03-10-2014 at 01:25 AM.
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Old 03-10-2014, 06:53 AM   #1714
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It's pretty straightforward (IMO), in the small portion you quoted. Also, I'm trying to not start a new thread, unless absolutely necessary. Also, I'm still gathering data points.

I was looking for both opinions on whether a new thread had enough merit, as well as opinions on if the matter should be kept in parallel threads for each platform, or unified as one-thread-for-all.

Please forgive me for trying to keep the peace, act responsibly, and for actually looking for some feedback, before I just go and start another thread...

I'm often hoping for a new (and/or better) thread on some issues/matters. That doesn't mean anybody/everybody else is.
Understood. I wasn't trying to be snarky, it's just that I noticed you mentioned starting a thread a couple times before, and my mindset is of the type that says if you want something done right, you have to do it yourself.
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Old 03-10-2014, 11:29 AM   #1715
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Originally Posted by nooneuknow View Post
It seems that the KS54 SMART tests on my base Roamios are incapable of detecting that my WD Red NAS 3TB WD30EFRX drives have completed the SMART extended and offline data gathering tests. The result is the test screen for each just running on for days, until I abort the testing. Maybe the tests complete, and the TiVo doesn't get the memo... It's hard to tell...

The drives test fine on a computer test platform, with no issues at all.

I did a KS57 and KS58, which pruned down the number of recordings in two folders to 167 each (was over 300 each). At the same time, my drive usage bar on the TiVo which was stuck at 50% while rebooting daily, jumped to 52%, without any added recordings.

Now I'll have to let it run and see if the daily reboots continue.
If invoking the SMART tests from within TiVo's software fails to report completion but invoking them from a computer succeeds, that would surely indicate a bug in TiVo's software. I doubt that WD Red NAS drives are any different from any other drives with respect to SMART test protocol. I also doubt that your problems are in your drive hardware.

If the KS57 and KS58 tests are pruning down the number of recordings (and the errors they're presumably fixing can't be blamed on hardware), that would seem to indicate a serious bug in TiVo's disk storage management software (MFS?), which is scary because that's at the heart of DVR functionality. I guess it's also possible that there could be bugs in those KS routines themselves, which would actually be less worrisome.

I believe the video glitching seen with single-tuner overlap (and possibly some other problems) can be blamed on poor prioritization within TiVo's software, such that low-level tasks are performed within high-level code, causing some hardware (like tuner or demodulator chips) to not be serviced in a timely manner. I'm now wondering if such problems can also cause errors not just in video data but also in structural parts of recordings (pointers, etc) that affect the basic integrity of the file system.
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Old 03-10-2014, 12:40 PM   #1716
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I doubt that WD Red NAS drives are any different from any other drives with respect to SMART test protocol.
Each manufacturer can implement the SMART protocol in their own way. From Wikipedia:

"Although an industry standard exists among most major hard drive manufacturers, there are some remaining issues and much proprietary "secret knowledge" held by individual manufacturers as to their specific approach. As a result, S.M.A.R.T. is not always implemented correctly on many computer platforms, due to the absence of industry-wide software and hardware standards for S.M.A.R.T. data interchange."

A drive that fails a SMART test should be replaced immediately, but passing a SMART test doesn't mean the drive is healthy.
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Old 03-12-2014, 07:10 AM   #1717
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I can't find anything actually wrong with the drives. I'm just now finding out that KS54 SMART tests built into Roamios do not seem to be able to do anything but read SMART data, and perform 5 minute, or other quick, tests (when a drive upgrade has been performed), while the hours-long tests go on for days, with no end in sight. My Premieres and HDs were still able to perform these tests on 2TB upgrade drives. Perhaps there's a >2TB bug that nobody has found, until now, as this may be the first time multiple people may be using the built-in KS diags, on an upgraded drive?

I'm still gathering data points, and am looking forward to a unified thread on this matter, or at least a Roamio thread that can be a base-of-operations for those with Roamios. I prefer a unified front comparing notes, cross-platform.
running k54 on my roamio because i had two unexpected reboots while i was watching a recorded show.

the extended test took 8 hrs to complete, an hr longer than the estimate
the off-line scan is estimating 12hrs...
i have a 3tb drive and had no problem with my usage bar, it was behaving as expected. Nor did i have any files with more them 300 show in it.

i do not think i will let the off line scan complete..unless someone can say why i should.
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Old 03-12-2014, 06:57 PM   #1718
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running k54 on my roamio because i had two unexpected reboots while i was watching a recorded show.

the extended test took 8 hrs to complete, an hr longer than the estimate
the off-line scan is estimating 12hrs...
i have a 3tb drive and had no problem with my usage bar, it was behaving as expected. Nor did i have any files with more them 300 show in it.

i do not think i will let the off line scan complete..unless someone can say why i should.
The best reason I can come up with is that if you didn't test your drive and look at the SMART values before installing the drive, and/or never ran the tests in the Roamio, you have no assurance that the whole drive is good, and there isn't a bunch of drive defects just waiting for you to use that much of the drive to get to them, before problems creep (or swoop) in.

Otherwise, I can't come up with much, other than for comparisons, baselines, or "data points" to help others.

There has been a small spike in people asking about "what hard drive to buy?" and people jumping to conclusions that their hard drive has gone bad. To make make matters worse, an overly helpful forum member (pot meets kettle) is telling people, who are asking about hard drives, that their power supply may be bad (on Premieres and older units), giving out advice on power supply inspection/repair, and complicated (for some) hard drive "rescue" operations. It may all be unnecessary/overkill, if it's just rebooting caused by a software or guide-data bug.

You can always run a long test like that when it suits your usage (or lack of usage). You can also always just go in and take a peek at the SMART values, every now an then, when it's convenient for you.

At minimum, for your own purposes, I suggest taking a snap shot of the SMART value screen with a camera, and/or just write the numbers and values down, and make sure to put a date on it, label what it is, and put a copy in a safe place, should you wish to compare values later. You often can see a trend in the numbers/values, which will tell you to be cautious, before the SMART values trigger a FAIL result (which not all values will trigger equally, if at all).

Why even run those long, and time-consuming tests? Unless you pre-tested the drive, they will never be run (as the TiVo is never offline/not busy). You might catch a bad drive, or an untrustworthy drive, before it dies.

At the same time, a drive can pass all tests, then less than a day later, suffer a sudden-death-failure, with no warning, and previously perfect SMART values. That has happened to me, a few times.

As others have said:

1. If a drive fails SMART, replace immediately.

2. If a drive passes SMART, it can still fail at any time.

3. SMART implementations are not always standardized between manufacturers/OEMs.

4. It's really not this simple, but this is my best attempt at being "short and simple", and not bringing up every possible exception.

I'd love it if somebody can/could find the time to run the long/offline tests on the same model, as well as differing models, hard drive(s), and report back. But, it's not something worth the effort, if you are just doing it for somebody else, and you are going without TiVo to do so.

Which model drive did you wind up with? I think I was helping you with drive selection (in this very thread), before being on an involuntary period of being away from the forum.

I'm guessing WD30EZRX.

Last edited by nooneuknow : 03-12-2014 at 07:02 PM.
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Old 03-12-2014, 10:52 PM   #1719
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Reboot problem

See my post here: http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb...4#post10038994 for a potential fix for this.

Eliminate the note about KS52 for Roamio models (KS52 is no longer valid for any Roamio model).

I've fixed a few issues with this, and I'm counting the days until I can say "X days (or hopefully XX days) and no reboots!".

I used to have to do this process with my Premieres about every 6-8 months, and nearly forgot about it (since moving to the Roamio platform).

It seems to have fixed two things (I'll disclose the other issue at a later time), but I'm not convinced it will hold (yet).

Most people don't have 172 Season Passes, and hoard hundreds of SD repeat recordings, so I'm not a "usual TiVo case". But, I have noticed each generation of TiVo seems to give me a longer period before the way I use them catches up and requires some "maintenance/manual intervention".

The post referenced above, placed in the Premiere thread, came to be "routine maintenance" for me, when I had Premieres, and I couldn't even keep any HDs running for long unless I kept doing as I describe.

The same warnings and disclaimers apply, even though I haven't bricked a Roamio (yet) trying it on them.
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Old 03-12-2014, 11:49 PM   #1720
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New Release - WD Red SMART Load/Unload Utility (1/21/14)

http://community.wd.com/t5/News-Anno...14/td-p/665833

The above link may shed some light of why WD Red NAS drives may be losing communication with the host (TiVo Roamio) during the long tests which only poll the drive every 5 minutes.

Apparently WDIDLE3.EXE either doesn't work properly (reports timer disabled or set to a value), or this NEW tool wouldn't be necessary, or exist at all.

I waited quite a while before buying my Roamios and deciding on WD Red NAS drives, basing my decisions on many factors, as well as reports of them working well together, here.

However, I don't think anybody ran KS54 SMART diags on them, and I just slapped them in (after real-time PC testing), believing what I read on here that no changes were necessary with the idle timer on any WD Drives with Roamios. My bad, I guess...

The other headline is WD has yet another color: PURPLE...

http://community.wd.com/t5/News-Anno...-p/687113#M427

New Product - WD Purple Surveillance Storage (2/25/14)

While I can't imagine them being affordable for TV DVR use, I bet somebody will think this is a must have product (aaronwt, are you listening?). If TiVos actually used the ATA Streaming Command Set Extensions, and had 32 HD streams going, actually using the extensions, then maybe I'd agree.

However, as I'm always reminding people, TiVo doesn't use those extensions, and likely never will (especially if they never design another DVR, or even if they do). So, the number of "streams" supported, as listed by the drive makers, is all moot in the TiVo universe. Those are not the "streams" you are looking for (it's irrelevant). It's all just regular data streams, with regular error-correction.

If you want the best possible drive for a security/surveillance DVR (the former target market for AV and AV-GP drives), and your rig does actually support these drives (there's a compatibility list), then please dive in and let us all know how they work.

I did glean that they "are not for use in NAS environments". Since a TiVo is technically more of a NAS device than it is an AV surveillance device, that's two or three strikes (first one is price - if you can find a price).

FWIW: If TiVo ever did/does turn on AV streaming, the current generation WD Red NAS drives (2.0) support it. PWL (preemptive Wear Leveling) isn't listed as a feature on the Reds, but I think TiVo drives thrash around enough that it likely doesn't matter...

Anybody have access to the old datasheets from WD on how many TB/year their drives were rated for (TB written per year)?

I ran across some old reviews that pegged the Red NAS as being (unofficially) rated for 120 to 150 TB/year, which seems inadequate for a TiVo by my math. Perhaps the AV and AV-GP drives had that same spec, and that's why only their Re and Se enterprise class drives list specs on that...

I'd like to know if WD ever specified how many TB/year writes their AV and AV-GP drives were rated for. Don't you? Apparently 24/7 rated doesn't mean 24/7 writing rated, or they changed their mind on that. Hmmmm....

Last edited by nooneuknow : 07-14-2014 at 06:46 PM. Reason: fixed TB/yr error
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Old 03-13-2014, 07:39 AM   #1721
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I would agree, my Roamio Pro and XL4 are the worst rebooting offenders and both have stock HDDs.
I agree. My Pro is rebooting once a day during primetime with a stock drive. My Premiere XLs aren't.

All of them are running on stock drives.
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Old 03-13-2014, 09:26 AM   #1722
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I agree. My Pro is rebooting once a day during primetime with a stock drive.
And you are willing to accept this as normal?! I was upset when my Pro rebooted ONCE.
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Old 03-13-2014, 11:58 AM   #1723
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Recent random reboot problem (multiple platforms) - TiVoMargret responds!

Quote:
Originally Posted by NotVeryWitty View Post
http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb...9#post10039469

Quote:
Originally Posted by TiVoMargret View Post
We found an interaction between the box and the service that was causing some random reboots. We made a change to the service last night that should resolve the problem. Please make a connection to the TiVo Service.

If you experience more than one reboot after making the connection to the TiVo Service, please email me your TSN with the subject "Random Reboots". (margret@tivo.com)

I am very sorry for the trouble!
--Margret
Great to hear!

However, if this "service interaction issue" causing the reboots caused any corruption of the databases/structures as a result of the primary cause, my advice in this post http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb...4#post10038994 may clean up any lingering issues.

If us TiVo users didn't have TiVoMargret, this issue would likely be repeatedly denied by the TiVo CS Reps, as even existing, go on for months, and we'd all be stuck doing the CSR scripted support dance, which usually includes finding any way to blame the problem on anything except TiVo (the product and/or the company).
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Old 03-13-2014, 12:45 PM   #1724
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And you are willing to accept this as normal?! I was upset when my Pro rebooted ONCE.
No. I emailed Margret last night when I saw it wasn't just me experiencing it. Other users had already so a fix was already in the works as posted above and in the other thread.
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Old 03-14-2014, 10:08 AM   #1725
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Nice! Hadn't known that Margret was involved...glad this was tracked down.
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Old 04-16-2014, 10:38 PM   #1726
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New 4TB WD40EURS AV disk doesn't boot enough to format it. How to test it?

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The best reason I can come up with is that if you didn't test your drive and look at the SMART values before installing the drive, and/or never ran the tests in the Roamio ....
Hi,
Would you tell me or point me to how to do the disk drive tests that you've suggested in the forums?

Nooneuknow has given some very helpful advice in forums and I hope he or someone can point me right.

I want to upgrade my 1TB WD10EURS AV-GP to 4 TB so I bought the WD40EURS AV on Amazon. I notice it says "AV" and not "AV-GP", don't know if that matters.

When installed the Tivo tries to boot up, flashes the screen about "Need to format the hard drive" but then goes immediately to a second screen, then reboots and recycles.

I can post this to a different or new thread if that's more appropriate; please tell me where to go. :-)

Thanks for the consideration,
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Old 04-16-2014, 10:52 PM   #1727
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The max you can put in a Roamio is 3TB, with the exception of a special proprietary process by Weaknees.
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Old 04-16-2014, 11:00 PM   #1728
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Hi,
Would you tell me or point me to how to do the disk drive tests that you've suggested in the forums?

Nooneuknow has given some very helpful advice in forums and I hope he or someone can point me right.

I want to upgrade my 1TB WD10EURS AV-GP to 4 TB so I bought the WD40EURS AV on Amazon. I notice it says "AV" and not "AV-GP", don't know if that matters.

When installed the Tivo tries to boot up, flashes the screen about "Need to format the hard drive" but then goes immediately to a second screen, then reboots and recycles.

I can post this to a different or new thread if that's more appropriate; please tell me where to go. :-)

Thanks for the consideration,
-deac
Thanks for the kind words. I seem to be hated by long-timers, and (lately) loved by first-time posters, long time lurkers, and new members...

Sorry to have to point out the obvious (to long-timers) answer:

The Roamios can only format (partition) up to 3TB.

The model number of your drive reflects an "AV-GP" drive, which is designed for A/V applications that operate 24/7. I'm sure the drive says "Green" or "Green Power" somewhere on the label (the "GP" designation).

Currently, the only easy way to get 4TB on a Roamio is to buy a specially pre-prepared drive from a web-store called Weaknees, or buy a Roamio from them with that drive in it.

There are harder ways, that even I am waiting to be simplified, and pass the test of time in use. I think there are about three threads on the subject. Maybe one of those who has mastered it, can walk you through it.

Sorry for the bad news. If possible, you may want to return the drive to where you purchased it from, as "incompatible". You really can't go wrong with Green AV drives for TiVo use, and will get a year longer warranty. I'll point-out, as I always do, that TiVo doesn't use the AV-specific features of the drive. But, these days, the year longer warranty is (usually) worth the drice difference between Green and Green AV (AV-GP).

So, the usual recommendation is to get a WD30EURX, or a WD30EURS (older model that works just as well for TiVo use).
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Old 04-16-2014, 11:04 PM   #1729
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Is there an echo in here?
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Old 04-16-2014, 11:10 PM   #1730
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Is there an echo in here?
I was typing and multi-tasking, so your quick post beat my longer reply.
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Old 04-16-2014, 11:45 PM   #1731
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Question

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The Roamios can only format (partition) up to 3TB.
Thanks to both of you, and thanks for the extra explanation.

If I do get the 3TB device should I do the disk tests mentioned elsewhere, and if so where can I find a description of how to do them? I'm pretty computer competent but Tivo newby.

thanks very much, you are a champ,
-deac
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Old 04-17-2014, 12:05 AM   #1732
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Originally Posted by deac33 View Post
Thanks to both of you, and thanks for the extra explanation.

If I do get the 3TB device should I do the disk tests mentioned elsewhere, and if so where can I find a description of how to do them? I'm pretty computer competent but Tivo newby.

thanks very much, you are a champ,
-deac
If you have a computer with a spare SATA port and SATA power connector, some use the software from the drive manufacturer's website, like "WinDlg" (Data Lifeguard Diagnostics for Windows) for WD.

The In-TiVo tests can't do as much testing, and are better described in some of the other threads.

You want to write zeroes (whole drive), then run extended (read whole drive) tests, to be sure the drive has no current defects.

You can also just put it in and pull it to run the read-tests, later, if you have problems. The in-TiVo testing is limited, and takes forever.

Your best bet, if pre-testing, is to use the support section for the drive maker you use, on their website. If you still have questions, you can ask here.
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Old 04-20-2014, 11:05 AM   #1733
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If you have a computer with a spare SATA port and SATA power connector, some use the software from the drive manufacturer's website, like "WinDlg" (Data Lifeguard Diagnostics for Windows) for WD.

The In-TiVo tests can't do as much testing, and are better described in some of the other threads.

You want to write zeroes (whole drive), then run extended (read whole drive) tests, to be sure the drive has no current defects.

You can also just put it in and pull it to run the read-tests, later, if you have problems. The in-TiVo testing is limited, and takes forever.

Your best bet, if pre-testing, is to use the support section for the drive maker you use, on their website. If you still have questions, you can ask here.
I am not allowed to send PM's yet .. can you PM me and let me know how much you are selling the 2TB hard drives for? Thanks!
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Old 04-21-2014, 12:47 AM   #1734
truman861
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So im trying to understand, is the TiVo software stored on the hard drive? For example, if my current software version works fine but I know theres a new update coming, can I create a new hard drive on a backup drive and if something happened to the software version that I don't end up liking, could I swap back over to the other hard drive and have the previous version even though I would loose my saved shows ?
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Old 04-21-2014, 05:44 AM   #1735
ggieseke
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Quote:
Originally Posted by truman861 View Post
So im trying to understand, is the TiVo software stored on the hard drive? For example, if my current software version works fine but I know theres a new update coming, can I create a new hard drive on a backup drive and if something happened to the software version that I don't end up liking, could I swap back over to the other hard drive and have the previous version even though I would loose my saved shows ?
On Roamios the software is stored in flash memory, not on the hard drive.
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Old 05-08-2014, 01:20 PM   #1736
sksjedi
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Roamio Upgrade FAQ?

Hello, is there a Roamio HD upgrade FAQ for Dummies someplace?
I have a 4 tuner Roamio that I want to set up for OTA, and want to expand the hard drive capacity.
The instructions on page 1 seem pretty clear, what confuses me is what kind of HD to purchase? I have tried to read as many of the 58 pages as possible, but keep getting confused.

I'm looking for a 2TB drive, and keep seeing deals pop up, but don't know which drive to get WD RED/BLUE/BLACK/GREEN? etc..
Seagates?

Thanks
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Old 05-08-2014, 01:58 PM   #1737
A J Ricaud
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Originally Posted by sksjedi View Post
I'm looking for a 2TB drive, and keep seeing deals pop up, but don't know which drive to get WD RED/BLUE/BLACK/GREEN? etc..
Seagates?
Thanks
Most people seem to prefer the Western Digital 2/3 TB Green AV/GP drives. The plain "green" drives are OK, too, just not specifically designed for DVRs. Some also like the Western Digital "red" drives, which have a longer warranty and are designed for 24/7 server (NAS) applications. I haven't seem many using Seagate drives.
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Old 05-08-2014, 02:03 PM   #1738
DeltaOne
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The instructions on page 1 seem pretty clear, what confuses me is what kind of HD to purchase?
Don't over-think the issue. The cheapest drive will work fine.
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Old 05-08-2014, 05:49 PM   #1739
ggieseke
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Forget black altogether, and possibly blue. The blacks run WAY too hot. I have blues in two of my Series 2s and they're fine, but the RPMs are more than you need and the temps are borderline.

Seagate drives have been getting mixed reviews, but I'm not sure why. I have 5 ST2000DM001 and 6 ST4000DM000 drives and they have all been rock solid. The RPMs, overall performance, acoustics, and even the number of sectors are the same as the equivalent green/red WD drives.

TiVos (even a Roamio Pro) run at 1.5Gbps, so just look for a 5400-5900 RPM drive that runs cool and quiet. I have bought WD reds from vendor X one day, greens from vendor Y the next, and Seagates the day after that. Look for warranty, price and shipping costs.
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Old 05-08-2014, 06:04 PM   #1740
CoxInPHX
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sksjedi View Post
I'm looking for a 2TB drive, and keep seeing deals pop up, but don't know which drive to get WD RED/BLUE/BLACK/GREEN? etc..
Seagates?

Thanks
Quote:
Originally Posted by A J Ricaud View Post
Most people seem to prefer the Western Digital 2/3 TB Green AV/GP drives. The plain "green" drives are OK, too, just not specifically designed for DVRs. Some also like the Western Digital "red" drives, which have a longer warranty and are designed for 24/7 server (NAS) applications. I haven't seem many using Seagate drives.
Quote:
Originally Posted by DeltaOne View Post
Don't over-think the issue. The cheapest drive will work fine.
I'd stick with what TiVo installs OEM:

Western Digital 2 TB WD AV-GP - WD20EURX

Western Digital 3 TB WD AV-GP - WD30EURS
or
Western Digital 3 TB WD AV-GP - WD30EURX
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