TiVo Community
TiVo Community
TiVo Community
Go Back   TiVo Community > TiVo TV Talk > Now Playing - TV Show Talk
TiVo Community
Reply
Forum Jump
 
Thread Tools
Old 04-24-2014, 02:31 AM   #61
BitbyBlit
.
 
Join Date: Aug 2001
Posts: 2,886
Quote:
Originally Posted by john4200 View Post
Since no less than three people have argued with my posts about the details of the evidence implicating Ward rather than addressing my point, it is quite obvious that not everyone "gets" it.

EDIT: add bitbyblit to the list, making at least four
This is what you posted:

Quote:
Originally Posted by john4200 View Post
I was surprised that Skye did not think, even for a second, that the traitor might be Melinda. The evidence that it was Ward was quite persuasive, but I did not expect Skye to be so rational about it so quickly.
I pointed out that Skye likely was not certain that Ward was Hydra, at least not at the beginning, and thus must have considered the possibility that it could have been May.

But I also think you are overestimating her feelings for Ward and animosity toward May. Her animosity toward May only resurfaced when she thought May was betraying Coulson. But nothing indicated that any of that remained once they got to Providence.

And so far Ward has been the one primarily making the moves on her. While Skye has seemed somewhat interested, nothing has indicated that she was so blinded by love that all reason would have escaped her. On top of that, she is a genius computer hacker, so she would have a more analytical mind than most.

The blood likely triggered Skye's memory of having seen it on Ward just moments ago along with his acting weird about it. That, combined with Ward having been at the Fridge combined with Ward's association with Garrett combined with May having been involved in a confrontation where Garrett was about to kill her all strongly implicated Ward.

Her mind most likely automatically connected the dots subconsciously, and it was an instinctive reaction for her to conclude, "Ward". No doubt after that initial gut reaction, she consciously processed all the facts. But at least she had the wherewithal to hide from Ward until she could verify one way or the other.
__________________
...there's a fine line between committing a felony and doing something really super cool. Sock, Reaper
BitbyBlit is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-24-2014, 03:07 AM   #62
john4200
Registered User
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Posts: 3,436
Quote:
Originally Posted by JYoung View Post
No, we're saying that with what was laid out, there's no real reason to consider May when it's Ward who lied to her.

If you want to play Johnny Cochran and get into the extreme minutia instead of seeing the big picture though, have at it.
Still completely missing the point. In fact, you have accused me of exactly what you are doing.

Last edited by john4200 : 04-24-2014 at 03:17 AM.
john4200 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-24-2014, 03:11 AM   #63
john4200
Registered User
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Posts: 3,436
Quote:
Originally Posted by BitbyBlit View Post
Her mind most likely automatically connected the dots subconsciously, and it was an instinctive reaction for her to conclude, "Ward".
Which is quite an amazing and unusual thing for a person to do so quickly in such a situation, given natural biases, the complexity of the evidence, and the stress of finding a colleague's dead body. Which was my original point.
john4200 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-24-2014, 06:55 AM   #64
JoBeth66
Temp
 
Join Date: Feb 2002
Posts: 13,421
Quote:
Originally Posted by john4200 View Post
Which is quite an amazing and unusual thing for a person to do so quickly in such a situation, given natural biases, the complexity of the evidence, and the stress of finding a colleague's dead body. Which was my original point.
Disagree.

If Melinda had been the killer, there would have been no reason for her to hide Koenig's body, or, if she DID hide the body, to put a trigger on the door so she'd know if someone discovered it. It would be completely illogical and a waste of getaway time. So the penny on the door made it clear that it was Ward who killed him. Any lingering doubt she may have had was erased when Ward said nothing about the penny when he opened the door, and when he told her Koenig was opening the hanger doors for them.

I was more surprised that she didn't consider, even wrongly, that Ward had killed May as well. (Note that she may have, but she didn't articulate it, which I would have expected.)

and yeah, as soon as Ward opened the door to the closet, I said "Skye better have put that penny back".
__________________
Amy Jo
----------------
Opting out.
JoBeth66 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-24-2014, 07:02 AM   #65
Rob Helmerichs
I am Groot!
 
Rob Helmerichs's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2000
Location: Minneapolis
Posts: 31,701
You all realize he will never, never quit, right?
__________________
“This is the moment of truth. Are you my friend, or are you some bloodsucking network vampire?”
“Why do I have to pick one or the other?”
Rob Helmerichs is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-24-2014, 07:25 AM   #66
eddyj
Registered User
 
eddyj's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: South Florida
Posts: 48,877
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rob Helmerichs View Post
You all realize he will never, never quit, right?
That is our fault. We should just admit that he is perfect, that his logic is infallible, and that he is smarter than all of us put together. Once I reached that conclusion, I stopped banging my head against my desk.
__________________

To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
eddyj is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-24-2014, 07:51 AM   #67
ehusen
Geek not Nerd
 
ehusen's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: Chicago Suburbs
Posts: 895
I actually thought this episode was pretty okay. I didn't think the characters acted too far from what would be logical. I still have issues though, as others have stated...

How did Melinda May get back to civilization? It is supposed to be extremely remote and secret and all. I just don't think she could have walked.

Why did Ward use a penny? Come on, Bond did this right 50 years ago. You use a small length of string laid in front of the door. If it's messed up/moved you know someone has been through the door but without telegraphing your warning system. What good is a warning that immediately tells the person entering that they have been detected. (Pennies don't magically wind up on top of a door).
__________________
"I am Husenus!"
ehusen is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-24-2014, 08:45 AM   #68
madscientist
Deregistered Snoozer
 
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: Lexington, MA
Posts: 3,190
Maybe Ward had a penny, but didn't have any string. Would it be better if he had used a more sophisticated system, but Skye had sussed it out anyway? I'd rather have Ward be in a hurry and use what he had available, even if imperfect, than another scene where Skye is unbelievably talented and/or lucky.
__________________
"Please remain calm--I may be mad, but I am a professional!" -- Mad Scientist
madscientist is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-24-2014, 08:49 AM   #69
JoeyJoJo
Damaged Goods
 
JoeyJoJo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: Southern NH.
Posts: 6,395
Quote:
Originally Posted by john4200 View Post
What exactly do you mean by that?
He means you're being annoying and not furthering the discussion of the episode at all.

With all your brilliant insight, I'm surprised you missed that.
JoeyJoJo is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-24-2014, 09:22 AM   #70
BitbyBlit
.
 
Join Date: Aug 2001
Posts: 2,886
Quote:
Originally Posted by JoBeth66 View Post
If Melinda had been the killer, there would have been no reason for her to hide Koenig's body, or, if she DID hide the body, to put a trigger on the door so she'd know if someone discovered it. It would be completely illogical and a waste of getaway time.
Or even create a body in the first place. Why kill Koenig and then say goodbye to Ward, or vice versa? There was no clear reason why May would want Koenig dead, but not Ward or Skye.

The most likely reason to kill Koenig would be to keep someone still at the base from finding out something about someone else still at the base. That left two possibilities: Skye killed Koenig to prevent Ward from finding out something or Ward killed Koenig to prevent Skye from finding out something. And Skye could eliminate one of them.

Quote:
Originally Posted by JoBeth66 View Post
I was more surprised that she didn't consider, even wrongly, that Ward had killed May as well. (Note that she may have, but she didn't articulate it, which I would have expected.)
I think if she did consider it in her head, she probably realized that since Ward didn't know about the lanyard tracking system, May's lanyard would have still been in the building had her body been hidden somewhere else.

Thus, May must have really left.

But if the thought that Ward might have killed May as well did pop into her head when she discovered Koenig, that would have been one more thing that would have pushed her initial gut reaction into the "Ward did it" territory.

And I suppose it's still possible that she thinks May truly wanted to leave, but Ward might have gotten to her outside, and killed her there. If so, she likely knows that she needs to tread lightly because Ward told her May had left, and she needs to continue to pretend that she trusts him completely. So even if she suspects that Ward might have killed May, she has to be careful about how she probes him about it.
__________________
...there's a fine line between committing a felony and doing something really super cool. Sock, Reaper

Last edited by BitbyBlit : 04-24-2014 at 10:01 AM.
BitbyBlit is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-24-2014, 09:44 AM   #71
JoBeth66
Temp
 
Join Date: Feb 2002
Posts: 13,421
Quote:
Originally Posted by BitbyBlit View Post
I think if she did consider it in her head, she probably realized that since Ward didn't know about the lanyard tracking system, May's lanyard would have still been in the building had her body been hidden someone else.

Thus, May must have really left.

But if the thought that Ward might have killed May as well did pop into her head when she discovered Koenig, that would have been one more thing that would have pushed her initial gut reaction into the "Ward did it" territory.

And I suppose it's still possible that she thinks May truly wanted to leave, but Ward might have gotten to her outside, and killed her there. If so, she likely knows that she needs to tread lightly because Ward told her May had left, and she needs to continue to pretend that she trusts him completely. So even if she suspects that Ward might have killed May, she has to be careful about how she probes him about it.
That's really good analysis. Makes sense when you look at it that way.
__________________
Amy Jo
----------------
Opting out.
JoBeth66 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-24-2014, 10:30 AM   #72
Jagman_sl
Registered User
 
Jagman_sl's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2001
Location: Jacksonville, FL
Posts: 355
Quote:
Originally Posted by JoBeth66 View Post
Disagree.

If Melinda had been the killer, there would have been no reason for her to hide Koenig's body, or, if she DID hide the body, to put a trigger on the door so she'd know if someone discovered it. It would be completely illogical and a waste of getaway time. So the penny on the door made it clear that it was Ward who killed him.
I think that this, more than anything else, exonerates May as the killer, leaving only Ward.
Jagman_sl is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-24-2014, 10:32 AM   #73
alpacaboy
Registered User
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
Posts: 1,972
[joking]
Maybe the penny was a decoy and he also put a hair or something elsewhere on the door so he knows he was discovered.
[/joking]
__________________
J: Where do you think they are?
S: I don't know. Lot of places in the world with C4 and yogurt.
(Burn Notice)
alpacaboy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-24-2014, 10:58 AM   #74
DavidTigerFan
Transporter Accident
 
DavidTigerFan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: Charleston, SC
Posts: 10,005
I'll get a screenshot of the door and enhance it to see if we can see a hair on it.
__________________
The invasion is complete. :D

Xbox Live: DTigerFan
DavidTigerFan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-24-2014, 10:59 AM   #75
Hunter Green
Curmudgeon
 
Hunter Green's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: People's Republic of Vermont
Posts: 2,934
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gerryex View Post
Anyone else taken aback when May leaves the secret outpost and just walks out the door. The next time we see her she is walking on a highway with no snow to meet her mom. Did May walk all that way? Wow, she is a fast walker and has great endurance!!!
I have no problems assuming May is a resourceful enough agent to secure transportation (stealing cars, hitching rides, heck, leaping onto moving trains) to get there, and we just didn't see the voyage since it wasn't noteworthy. It does seem like it was awfully quick, though, considering how little time passed comparatively for the others.

Didn't someone observe that the name Koenig was shared with one of the Howling Commandos, suggesting maybe that character might be a grandson of one of them? Or did I imagine that? If that's the case, maybe this was a funny way of saying that, despite the name, he wasn't actually what we guessed he might be.
__________________
former owner of a Series 2 Tivo, lifetime subscription, 233 hours, now sold
Hunter Green is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-24-2014, 11:03 AM   #76
LoadStar
LOAD"*",8,1
 
LoadStar's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2001
Location: Milwaukee, WI
Posts: 31,170
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hunter Green View Post
Didn't someone observe that the name Koenig was shared with one of the Howling Commandos, suggesting maybe that character might be a grandson of one of them?
In the comics, Eric Koenig was one of the Howling Commandos. However, the Cinematic Universe doesn't necessarily depict the characters in the same way as the comics. (For example, Jasper Sitwell also appeared in the comics, but there he was a loyal SHIELD agent.)
LoadStar is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 04-24-2014, 11:06 AM   #77
Ereth
Registered User
 
Ereth's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: Jacksonville, FL
Posts: 36,813
Also, the time difference is more notable here.

Captain America first came back in the 1960s, only 20 years after he fought in WW2. It was conceivable that he could run into other veterans of WW2 still active and fighting for SHIELD at that time. Comics time elasticity let those characters continue to live even though the idea that these middle-aged men fought in WW2 is now ridiculous.

But the movies brings Cap back 70 years after he froze in ice, not 20. It's clear to the audience that he won't be running into any other young(ish) healthy men who also fought in WW2, so while Cap fought along side the Howling Commandos in the comics for decades, they can't do that here.
__________________
Remember "Just Alley"? Re-read it
To view links or images in signatures your post count must be 10 or greater. You currently have 0 posts.
.

Please do not "Fixed Your Post" on my posts. I find that rude and annoying. Thank you for your consideration.
Ereth is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-24-2014, 11:08 AM   #78
smbaker
Registered User
 
Join Date: May 2003
Posts: 15,948
Quote:
Originally Posted by eddyj View Post
That is our fault. We should just admit that he is perfect, that his logic is infallible, and that he is smarter than all of us put together.
I tried this in another thread. IIRC he didn't know how to respond to being declared the winner and started calling me names.
smbaker is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-24-2014, 11:13 AM   #79
unitron
Registered User
 
unitron's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: semi-coastal NC
Posts: 13,718
It bugs me that Skye didn't check to be sure whether Koenig was possibly still alive, and that she didn't check him for any weapons that it might be handy to have with a would-be murderer running around.
__________________
(thisismysigfile)


"I am altering the deal. Pray I don't alter it any further."

Darth TiVo, 14 February, 2011
unitron is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-24-2014, 11:17 AM   #80
smbaker
Registered User
 
Join Date: May 2003
Posts: 15,948
Quote:
Originally Posted by unitron View Post
It bugs me that Skye didn't check to be sure whether Koenig was possibly still alive, and that she didn't check him for any weapons that it might be handy to have with a would-be murderer running around.
Time was of the essence. She saw from the pad that Ward was wandering the base.

She's also not necessarily trained to know what to do in that situation. She's the agent with the least amount of formal training. She probably panicked.
smbaker is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-24-2014, 12:03 PM   #81
Jagman_sl
Registered User
 
Jagman_sl's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2001
Location: Jacksonville, FL
Posts: 355
Plus he was stuffed in the ceiling, was dripping blood, and had the dead eyes. I'm no doctor but I think I'd call it at that point, too...
Jagman_sl is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-24-2014, 01:05 PM   #82
unitron
Registered User
 
unitron's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: semi-coastal NC
Posts: 13,718
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jagman_sl View Post
Plus he was stuffed in the ceiling, was dripping blood, and had the dead eyes. I'm no doctor but I think I'd call it at that point, too...
Did you run it on slow motion or on a really big screen?

'Cause the version I saw never stayed on him long enough for me to focus on anything.
__________________
(thisismysigfile)


"I am altering the deal. Pray I don't alter it any further."

Darth TiVo, 14 February, 2011
unitron is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-24-2014, 01:18 PM   #83
Jagman_sl
Registered User
 
Jagman_sl's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2001
Location: Jacksonville, FL
Posts: 355
Quote:
Originally Posted by unitron View Post
Did you run it on slow motion or on a really big screen?

'Cause the version I saw never stayed on him long enough for me to focus on anything.
Big screen. :-)
Jagman_sl is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-24-2014, 01:46 PM   #84
unitron
Registered User
 
unitron's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: semi-coastal NC
Posts: 13,718
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ereth View Post
Also, the time difference is more notable here.

Captain America first came back in the 1960s, only 20 years after he fought in WW2. It was conceivable that he could run into other veterans of WW2 still active and fighting for SHIELD at that time. Comics time elasticity let those characters continue to live even though the idea that these middle-aged men fought in WW2 is now ridiculous.

But the movies brings Cap back 70 years after he froze in ice, not 20. It's clear to the audience that he won't be running into any other young(ish) healthy men who also fought in WW2, so while Cap fought along side the Howling Commandos in the comics for decades, they can't do that here.
About that same time they were thawing out Cap for the first time the original Nick Fury (white guy, used to be a Sgt. and led the Howling Commandos) was having some gray added to his temples and being recruited to be an agent of S.H.E.I.L.D., and all of that was going on during my early adolescence. (In later adolescence comic books took a back seat to other interests)

So it's still a little strange for me for Fury to be a black guy born about the same time I was.

Not as strange as if they'd used Hasselhoff for the Shaft remake though.
__________________
(thisismysigfile)


"I am altering the deal. Pray I don't alter it any further."

Darth TiVo, 14 February, 2011
unitron is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-24-2014, 01:47 PM   #85
smbaker
Registered User
 
Join Date: May 2003
Posts: 15,948
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jagman_sl View Post
Plus he was stuffed in the ceiling, was dripping blood, and had the dead eyes. I'm no doctor but I think I'd call it at that point, too...
Doesn't that seem like an odd place to stash a blood-dripping corpse? Why not just hide him behind some of the boxes? Absent the tracking devices, Skye wasn't likely to have gone into that room.

It just sounds like a lot of extra work to me (then again, it's just a silly TV show).
smbaker is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-24-2014, 01:50 PM   #86
unitron
Registered User
 
unitron's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: semi-coastal NC
Posts: 13,718
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jagman_sl View Post
Big screen. :-)
I think a lot of stuff is starting to be shot not just for wider screens but for bigger ones, so where in the past they might have zoomed in more on something important to the plot, or kept it on the screen longer, now it's become blink and you miss it.
__________________
(thisismysigfile)


"I am altering the deal. Pray I don't alter it any further."

Darth TiVo, 14 February, 2011
unitron is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-24-2014, 01:51 PM   #87
Jagman_sl
Registered User
 
Jagman_sl's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2001
Location: Jacksonville, FL
Posts: 355
Big Grin

Quote:
Originally Posted by smbaker View Post
Doesn't that seem like an odd place to stash a blood-dripping corpse? Why not just hide him behind some of the boxes? Absent the tracking devices, Skye wasn't likely to have gone into that room.

It just sounds like a lot of extra work to me (then again, it's just a silly TV show).
Not to mention actually placing the body on the grate when there were solid ceiling tiles right next to it. If Ward is the best that HYDRA has to offer then this may not last long....
Jagman_sl is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-24-2014, 02:17 PM   #88
smbaker
Registered User
 
Join Date: May 2003
Posts: 15,948
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jagman_sl View Post
If Ward is the best that HYDRA has to offer then this may not last long....
Well yeah, but then put him in comparison against what Shield has to offer... They couldn't even administer the lie detector test properly.

One agent of shield left because her feelings were hurt. Another left to go save his ex-girlfriend. Meanwhile, HYDRA steals the bus right out from under them.
smbaker is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-24-2014, 02:36 PM   #89
Jagman_sl
Registered User
 
Jagman_sl's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2001
Location: Jacksonville, FL
Posts: 355
Quote:
Originally Posted by smbaker View Post
Well yeah, but then put him in comparison against what Shield has to offer... They couldn't even administer the lie detector test properly.

One agent of shield left because her feelings were hurt. Another left to go save his ex-girlfriend. Meanwhile, HYDRA steals the bus right out from under them.
LOL! Good points!
Jagman_sl is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-24-2014, 02:39 PM   #90
Rob Helmerichs
I am Groot!
 
Rob Helmerichs's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2000
Location: Minneapolis
Posts: 31,701
An argument could be made that they'd be better off just being slaves to Hydra.



SHIELD, by the way, is an acronym, hence the capitals (more properly S.H.I.E.L.D.). Hydra is just a word.
__________________
“This is the moment of truth. Are you my friend, or are you some bloodsucking network vampire?”
“Why do I have to pick one or the other?”
Rob Helmerichs is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply
Forum Jump




Thread Tools


Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Advertisements

TiVo Community
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.6.8
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
vBulletin Skins by: Relivo Media

(C) 2013 Magenium Solutions - All Rights Reserved. No information may be posted elsewhere without written permission.
TiVo® is a registered trademark of TiVo Inc. This site is not owned or operated by TiVo Inc.
All times are GMT -5. The time now is 11:45 PM.
OUR NETWORK: MyOpenRouter | TechLore | SansaCommunity | RoboCommunity | MediaSmart Home | Explore3DTV | Dijit Community | DVR Playground |