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Old 03-08-2014, 01:19 AM   #211
jwbelcher
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Originally Posted by CoxInPHX View Post
The last 10 days or so, all my Tivos have been randomly rebooting at different times and frequency. I have tried to study the logs after it has happened, but have not been able to determine why.

Roamio Pro - once every 1 - 2 days
Elite/XL4 - once to 3x's per day
Premiere - every 2 - 3 days (Premiere has a brand new 2TB HDD)

Something odd is happening.
My roamio started rebooting around the same timeframe - with about the same frequency. I emailed Margret a week ago about it. She offered to have them look at the logs, but still waiting to hear back. I think it's service connections as someone earlier speculated.
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Old 03-08-2014, 02:17 AM   #212
CoxInPHX
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Originally Posted by jwbelcher View Post
My roamio started rebooting around the same timeframe - with about the same frequency. I emailed Margret a week ago about it. She offered to have them look at the logs, but still waiting to hear back. I think it's service connections as someone earlier speculated.
I also emailed Margret today with my Elite/XL4 TSN and asked her to take a look at the logs. I hope she responds and looks into it.
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Old 03-08-2014, 06:56 AM   #213
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Originally Posted by jwbelcher View Post
My roamio started rebooting around the same timeframe - with about the same frequency. I emailed Margret a week ago about it. She offered to have them look at the logs, but still waiting to hear back. I think it's service connections as someone earlier speculated.
It has happened in the past, but normally there is more of a geographic flavor to the reboots - there is messed up guide data for particular areas of the country that cause problems. I'm not sure I see that here, though most of the reports have been in the western third of the country.

When exactly did it start? Could it be when guide data for the daylight savings time switchover first appeared? (It sounds like a bit before, but perhaps some of the early reports could have been actual hardware disk problems.)
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Old 03-08-2014, 08:12 AM   #214
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I see my Roamio Pro rebooted this morning again at 3:12am MST, according to the CC boot time and OOB start time. (Arizona does not observe DST so that should not be the issue with guide data here.)

It appears it uploaded the logs immediately after, as the logs all start again at 3:40am
Last Service Connection was 3:38 AM MST
Last VCM Connection was 3:40 AM MST

I again emailed this info to Margret.
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Old 03-08-2014, 08:32 AM   #215
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I see my Roamio Pro rebooted this morning again at 3:12am MST, according to the CC boot time and OOB start time. (Arizona does not observe DST so that should not be the issue with guide data here.)
For the DST, what I'm thinking is more along the lines of some misguided shows may have changed the time of their scheduled shows (not realizing that the times are probably already in universal time in their schedule) and the TiVo is seeing conflicts as those mistakes work through the system and are corrected,and the TiVo is responding poorly. Since so few people are seeing the reboots, I would think the problem is probably bad data running into a TiVo bug handling it.
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Old 03-08-2014, 08:56 AM   #216
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The last 10 days or so, all my Tivos have been randomly rebooting at different times and frequency. I have tried to study the logs after it has happened, but have not been able to determine why.

Roamio Pro - once every 1 - 2 days
Elite/XL4 - once to 3x's per day
Premiere - every 2 - 3 days (Premiere has a brand new 2TB HDD)

Something odd is happening.
Add me to this list.

I'm only running Roamios. But, for about two weeks, daily reboots at random times, sometimes more than once a day, happening when they are recording, not recording - but in use for Live TV, as well as one that sits in standby 99% of the time (which is the one rebooting the most).

A symptom is that while new recordings occur, the drive usage bar won't advance beyond exactly 50%, which is not right.

I suspected hard drive issues too. I use WD Red NAS 3TB drives in my three base model Roamios. I ran all the WD Diags before using the drives. I can't get the drives to show ANY SMART value degradation, when tested on a PC and the tests complete in a shorter time than estimated.

When tested in Roamio, the extended tests built into KS54 (IR mode remote, or RF/IR remote set to IR-only mode required to get kickstart menus on Roamios), estimate the test should take ~480 minutes, I aborted after 2500 minutes had passed. The SMART values still are perfect. I am now running the Roamio SMART off-line data gathering test, estimated at ~716 minutes to finish, and have passed the 1540 minute mark (right now). All the SMART short tests in KS54, in Roamios, complete quickly, and pass.

When I had Premieres, that came stock with 320GB drives, which I had upgraded to 2TB drives, the same long SMART tests finished either in less time than the estimate, or within ~10% beyond the estimated times.

I'll be moving along to trying any other kickstart tests that still are available on Roamios (although, as with the upgraded Premieres, the only HDD tests that larger drives would do were the SMART ones, and not the TiVo-specific ones, which cease to work without a stock drive).

The last thing I will try after all else is running SpinRite to try and get a better verification on whether or not there is anything, at all, wrong with the drives.

I'm beginning to think that it's a TiVo problem, perhaps related to hardware, or the wall-wart power supplies (mine run very hot to the touch). The drives are running very cool, and the MBT is below 50 degrees on all units (although, the tiny fans are spinning like jet turbines, and making noise like min-jet turbines).

That's all I can report at this time. I'll check back in later to update what I find, and/or don't find, and compare notes with anybody else having issues like recently reported (spontaneous reboots beginning ~2 weeks ago).

Yes, I realize this is a Premiere thread/area. I thought sharing that I'm having similar issues with my Roamios may be helpful.

Yes, all my TiVos are on UPS battery backup, with a full 120-125V of power.
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Old 03-08-2014, 10:44 AM   #217
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Originally Posted by CoxInPHX View Post
I see my Roamio Pro rebooted this morning again at 3:12am MST, according to the CC boot time and OOB start time. (Arizona does not observe DST so that should not be the issue with guide data here.)

It appears it uploaded the logs immediately after, as the logs all start again at 3:40am
Last Service Connection was 3:38 AM MST
Last VCM Connection was 3:40 AM MST

I again emailed this info to Margret.
I've notice a service connect after several of my reboots. I wonder if its standard protocol after an unexpected restarted.

Btw, are you pulling the drive to see the logs? I'm reluctant to open the unit up.
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Old 03-08-2014, 12:38 PM   #218
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I've notice a service connect after several of my reboots. I wonder if its standard protocol after an unexpected restarted.

Btw, are you pulling the drive to see the logs? I'm reluctant to open the unit up.
While your post isn't in response to mine (directly), I have the answer you seem to be looking for.

The TiVo logs (most of them) can be viewed with a TiVo backdoor, which involves going to System Information then:

Press: Clear, Clear, Enter, Enter, 0.

That gets you into the TiVo backdoor area. The title of screen is "Backdoors Information", and getting to the logs in pretty obvious once you are in. The navigation is explained by the backdoor. But, it's a bit hard to go back a log, since left/back takes you out of the logs, rather than advancing to the next log, like the right directional press will do.

If your system won't allow you in, just reboot first, then go in.

To make life easier, you can make markers in your logs with date/time stamps, by going to Live TV, then pressing 9,1,1,Clear (hit clear before a channel change can happen).

You can initiate/dump extra A/V logging data (and date/time stamps) in the logs by pressing 7,7,7,Clear in Live TV (again, pressing clear before the channel can change).

The logs can also be viewed with a disk editor/hex editor with the TiVo drive connected to a computer. You will find them in the var partition, and will see more than the backdoor allows (my preferred method, when puling the drive suites me).
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Old 03-08-2014, 02:25 PM   #219
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Thanks nooneuknow. This is exactly what I was hoping for.

I've replaced my S3 several times due to drive failures, but probably not worth pulling the Roamio's yet since others seem to have the same problem going on. I am curious though if the same errors appear in S5 logs for drive failures. With this backdoor, I can at least investigate without potentially voiding my extended warranty.
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Old 03-08-2014, 02:37 PM   #220
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Thanks for the logging tips, nooneuknow. I did this and I was able to gather (before syslog restarted and deleted my logs) that my reboots appear to be an out of memory condition.

Here's some info I gathered from tverr:

463562/14 TmkMempool mypool tried to allocate a bunch of bytes and it failed

137461/14 TmkAssertionFailure[26569]: {20359763} : (OutOfMemoryCrash, line 147 ())

Then it dumps a bunch of /proc info and tells me to look at the kernel log for a backtrace. Unfortunately syslogd had restarted and wiped the logs by then.

Not sure where to take this info, but maybe someone else seeing the reboots can see if we're having the same issue? My TiVo is only 43% full and less than a year old. Only started having problems in the last couple weeks. It's an XL4 with lifetime service. My Mini doesn't seem to be having issues from what I can tell.
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Old 03-08-2014, 09:47 PM   #221
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I too saw the out of memory condition. OutOfMemoryCrash in the logs.

But I also saw way too much other info, that could be a potential cause for a restart.

I wish we could access the logs in a browser with a URL and the IP address, so we could copy them down and compare.
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Old 03-09-2014, 08:28 AM   #222
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I too saw the out of memory condition. OutOfMemoryCrash in the logs.

But I also saw way too much other info, that could be a potential cause for a restart.

I wish we could access the logs in a browser with a URL and the IP address, so we could copy them down and compare.
If anybody tries running the long SMART tests on an upgraded drive (in a base Roamio), and runs into the elapsed time being several days past the "guesstimated time" the TiVo states, with no end in sight (I'm at 2876 minutes elapsed time on my second attempt), while aborting and checking the SMART attributes shows a perfectly healthy drive, please let me know.

Has anybody ever confirmed that these (in the TiVo) tests work on a Roamio upgrade drive (actually complete)?

As far as being able to copy and share the logs, that can be done with the drive outside the TiVo, and connected to a PC, using a disk/hex editor.

I fear this may be the same (or similar to) scenario I have seen happen on TiVo HDs, Premieres, and now (possibly) Roamios, where if you hit a certain number of total recordings, it seems that the TiVo isn't able to cope, and will start rebooting, just like described, until you offload and delete the folder, or just delete it, without offloading first.

I have a few shows that I set to record everything, and record in SD, which have always caused issues like this when the number of recordings exceeded 300 for a folder. A reboot would sometimes prune the number back down to 300 (from a number like 367). Then I would not see a reboot again, until that folder ticked back up to some other random >300 number of recordings. If a reboot alone wouldn't prune folders down to 300 recordings, a KS52 always would, every time, on before-Roamio platforms.

I have only had my Roamios long enough to get to this point. I had a blind faith that the better hardware in the platform would be able to cope.

This is a nightmare issue, for me, because I'm running on upgraded drives. TiVo has turned me away for support in the past for running upgraded drives (they figured it out, I never tell them). I also couldn't achieve the archives of recordings I do now, on stock drives, of TiVos past...

There is one TiVo in the house (a base Roamio) that isn't doing this... It is a unit that my family, but not me, uses, and they never have more than a total of 50 programs, in all, and often there are more like a total of a dozen, or less. They never save anything, or try to record and archive years worth of a program like I do. I've often wondered why I upgraded that one to 3TB, since they never need more than 500GB, then realize it gives me the ability to dig shows out of their Deleted folder, in the event that I have bad recording, missed recording, or forgot to set up a new season pass for a new program, etc... The point (in this paragraph), is that this not-rebooting unit never has recordings on it for long, and nobody stockpiles episodes of anything to watch later (or just to have in case they want to watch them a year from now)...

Last edited by nooneuknow : 03-09-2014 at 09:04 AM.
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Old 03-09-2014, 12:06 PM   #223
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If anybody tries running the long SMART tests on an upgraded drive (in a base Roamio), and runs into the elapsed time being several days past the "guesstimated time" the TiVo states, with no end in sight (I'm at 2876 minutes elapsed time on my second attempt), while aborting and checking the SMART attributes shows a perfectly healthy drive, please let me know.

Has anybody ever confirmed that these (in the TiVo) tests work on a Roamio upgrade drive (actually complete)?
I guess you mean running the SMART tests via KS54. I've never run KS54 or the SMART tests explicitly. But are the SMART tests similar to the DST (Device Self-Test) that is (I believe) the short test invoked by the WD Data Lifeguard Diagnostic program? I've run those tests, short and long. I believe that the long test has occasionally hung but then completed when rerun, so I may have sometimes blamed glitches in the test-bed system. Of course if the test-bed system is the TiVo, that would be less reassuring.

Quote:
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I fear this may be the same (or similar to) scenario I have seen happen on TiVo HDs, Premieres, and now (possibly) Roamios, where if you hit a certain number of total recordings, it seems that the TiVo isn't able to cope, and will start rebooting, just like described, until you offload and delete the folder, or just delete it, without offloading first.

I have a few shows that I set to record everything, and record in SD, which have always caused issues like this when the number of recordings exceeded 300 for a folder. A reboot would sometimes prune the number back down to 300 (from a number like 367). Then I would not see a reboot again, until that folder ticked back up to some other random >300 number of recordings. If a reboot alone wouldn't prune folders down to 300 recordings, a KS52 always would, every time, on before-Roamio platforms.

I have only had my Roamios long enough to get to this point. I had a blind faith that the better hardware in the platform would be able to cope.
Do you really mean KS52? According to WeaKnees, that is an Emergency Software Reinstall. What you describe sounds more like something that would happen as a result of KS58 or KS57 or maybe KS54. In any case, it's a scary possibility that would seem to indicate a blatant bug in TiVo's software. The fact that Roamio hardware is faster or better probably wouldn't help.

Quote:
Originally Posted by nooneuknow View Post
There is one TiVo in the house (a base Roamio) that isn't doing this... It is a unit that my family, but not me, uses, and they never have more than a total of 50 programs, in all, and often there are more like a total of a dozen, or less. They never save anything, or try to record and archive years worth of a program like I do. I've often wondered why I upgraded that one to 3TB, since they never need more than 500GB, then realize it gives me the ability to dig shows out of their Deleted folder, in the event that I have bad recording, missed recording, or forgot to set up a new season pass for a new program, etc... The point (in this paragraph), is that this not-rebooting unit never has recordings on it for long, and nobody stockpiles episodes of anything to watch later (or just to have in case they want to watch them a year from now)...
So it might not matter how many programs accumulate in Recently Deleted, as long as no group folder exceeds ~300 programs? Can I assume that you keep groups (by series name) turned on? Might turning groups off circumvent the problem? I'm sure I've never had 300 shows in a folder for one series anyway.
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Old 03-09-2014, 05:19 PM   #224
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Here's some info I gathered from tverr:
463562/14 TmkMempool mypool tried to allocate a bunch of bytes and it failed
137461/14 TmkAssertionFailure[26569]: {20359763} : (OutOfMemoryCrash,

Not sure where to take this info,
Did you ever consider opening a support ticket at tivo.com ?

I believe we all need to become more proactive. TiVo's first line support is so bad, we need them to see a volume of similar complaints to make them escalate.

I've been discussing my frequent random reboots with them, and so far all they want to discuss is my signal levels and whether I have the TiVo plugged into a good outlet. I get the feeling I'm all alone here. Obviously there are many other people seeing random reboots.
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Old 03-09-2014, 06:57 PM   #225
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Margret responded to my email and has turned on additional logging on my TiVos. So hopefully they will find the issue.

My Roamio Pro rebooted again today, Sun, March 9, 2014 @ 1:12 PM - Arizona Time (PDT) - 8:12 PM (UTC)
No one was using the DVR at the time, TV was off.

The Roamio Pro had already uploaded the logs,
Last Service Connection was 1:33 PM - Arizona Time (PST)
Last VCM Connection was 1:37 PM - Arizona Time (PST)
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Old 03-10-2014, 10:33 PM   #226
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I've had my Premiere 4 reboot I think twice in the past few weeks.. once during Once upon a Time in Wonderland.. Not a HUGE deal, since I haven't watched ANY eps of that show yet.. but it will be a pain when I 'catch up'.

I thought the hard drive might be going bad, then saw mentions of these threads
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Old 03-10-2014, 11:18 PM   #227
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Margret responded to my email and has turned on additional logging on my TiVos. So hopefully they will find the issue.
Margret responded again and said they have identified the issue in my logs. So anyone else with rebooting issues should contact her, and ask that additional logging be turned on and email her with details and time of every random reboot.
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Old 03-12-2014, 09:18 PM   #228
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I started with the 2 tuner Premiere XL back in May 2011. Never had any problems. In October 2011, I upgraded to the 4 tuner Elite. After 5 months of having it, spontaneous reboots started to happen--be it while recording, watching live TV, or while doing nothing since I was at work. That was box #1. I would call to complain and they'd send me another box. This went on with EVERY box and always within 5 months after having it. By the time I got up to box #5, I called it in and I got the Roamio Pro for nothing, a clean swap for my troubles. Yeah well, my Roamio Pro spontaneously rebooted for the first time while I was watching live TV sometime last month. Of course it happened after 5 months of having it. Today, while I was at work, it spontaneously rebooted again at about 3:15ish PM EST. I know this because only one show is recording at that time and I noticed that it was listed 2x in the folder with a chunk missing right at the time it rebooted so I had the first 15 minutes, lost about 8 minutes or so, and then the 2nd listing resumed at about 30 minutes in.

When I was having the problems with the XL boxes ( and I'd get refurbished and brand new boxes), I was told by a tech that maybe I need to rearrange my furniture in my living room. What?
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Old 03-12-2014, 09:19 PM   #229
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Margret responded again and said they have identified the issue in my logs. So anyone else with rebooting issues should contact her, and ask that additional logging be turned on and email her with details and time of every random reboot.
Cox, how did you contact Margret? Can I have her email address if that's what you used to contact her? Thanks!

Wendy
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Old 03-12-2014, 09:28 PM   #230
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margret at tivo dot com
https://twitter.com/tivodesign

I though maybe it was the daylight savings time guide data, as someone else suggested, because I had not had a reboot in 3 days.

But late this afternoon the Roamio Pro rebooted again.
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Old 03-12-2014, 10:44 PM   #231
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margret at tivo dot com
https://twitter.com/tivodesign

I though maybe it was the daylight savings time guide data, as someone else suggested, because I had not had a reboot in 3 days.

But late this afternoon the Roamio Pro rebooted again.
Thanks Cox! yeah, mine rebooted for the 2nd time today at about 3ish. I think I'm cursed.
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Old 03-12-2014, 11:19 PM   #232
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Try this for those reboots (at your own risk):

Warning/disclaimer: If you brick the TiVo doing this (endless reboot looping cycle), you will lose everything and have to re-image the hard drive using one of the many fine free tools and images available from the friendly and helpful folks on TCF. I recommend backing up your SP list with KMTTG if you want a fast and easy way to put your SPs and ARWLs back on once you have re-imaged if this unfortunate, but possible, scenario happens to you.

Before you do any of this, please see this post from TiVoMargret: http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb...9#post10039469 (which was posted after I posted my first revision of this guide).

1. Make a list of any scheduled recordings that aren't part of a Season Pass or ARWL - You will need to re-schedule/add them back later.

2. Make sure you have AT LEAST 4 hours before anything is going to record (that you care if it does).

3. Reboot with the option to "Clear Program Information & To Do List".

4. Unplug the network cable (unplugging the coax-in, as well, can't hurt either - especially if you are using MoCA)

5. Babysit while it does the clearing.

6. Upon completing it will reboot.

7a. (On pre-Roamio models only) Try a KS52, for a lesser risk of a reboot loop situation. Even though this is called an "Emergency Software Reinstall", and does re-install the current software to the alternate partitions, this option is designed to detect if a KS57 or KS58 routine should be run on the next pass/boot, and schedules them, if needed (when it detects issues). Some of the reason why a TiVo sometimes seems faster after a software update, is due to the routines, integrity checks, and cleanup processes invoked, to help insure software updates complete without issue.

7b. (On Roamio models, which no longer support KS52) Initiate a KS57 & KS58 back to back.

7c. Added note for 7a and 7b: Quite some time ago, TiVo made the decision to not automatically perform basic drive data integrity checks (before the Roamio was even on the radar), and chose instead to only do basic checks after every XX reboots - I forgot how many it takes. This was done to speed up the boot/reboot time.

8. Let it boot up, then reconnect the coax and networking cable.

9. Connect to the TiVo service (and expect no recordings until connection has completed and all data loaded).

10. Add back in the items from the list in step 1.

11. Give it a few days and report back on what happens.

Please don't send me death threats or cuss me out if your TiVo bricks itself (cycling between GSOD and Welcome-Starting Up). This is always a risk when using KS commands.

Note: You can always leave out the KS commands and see if just purging and reloading the guide data helps. SPs repopulate, so they will re-schedule any SP & ARWL associated recordings, once the guide data has downloaded, loaded, and been fully processed.

Good Luck!

Last edited by nooneuknow : 03-19-2014 at 08:45 PM.
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Old 03-13-2014, 09:08 AM   #233
slowbiscuit
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Mine did a reboot last night for the first time I can remember. If it starts happening again I will certainly try a clear program and todo after an SP backup to see if it works. Not going anywhere near the kickstarts on a 2TB disk unless I suspect other disk problems though.
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Old 03-13-2014, 09:32 AM   #234
chiguy50
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Quote:
Originally Posted by slowbiscuit View Post
Mine did a reboot last night for the first time I can remember. If it starts happening again I will certainly try a clear program and todo after an SP backup to see if it works. Not going anywhere near the kickstarts on a 2TB disk unless I suspect other disk problems though.
I hope I am not jinxing anything, but FWIW I have had zero reboots on either my Premiere Elite or 2-tuner Premiere in recent memory, although there have been occasional spontaneous reboots in the past.

Given the recent wide-spread occurrence and frequency of these reported reboots, I assume it is a systemic TiVo glitch (possibly firmware-related) and not due to an individual DVR's defective operation. But there could be some factors specific to the individual set-up or usage that is contributing to the rebooting. I hope that TiVo addresses the issue and provides not just a resolution but feedback on the cause.
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Old 03-13-2014, 10:47 AM   #235
Teeps
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wendy in NY View Post
When I was having the problems with the XL boxes ( and I'd get refurbished and brand new boxes), I was told by a tech that maybe I need to rearrange my furniture in my living room. What?
I'm guessing they were concerned about air flow or lack thereof; TiVo gets too hot.
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Old 03-13-2014, 11:44 AM   #236
chiguy50
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Big Grin No Need to Thank Me

Quote:
Originally Posted by chiguy50 View Post
I hope I am not jinxing anything, but FWIW I have had zero reboots on either my Premiere Elite or 2-tuner Premiere in recent memory, although there have been occasional spontaneous reboots in the past.

Given the recent wide-spread occurrence and frequency of these reported reboots, I assume it is a systemic TiVo glitch (possibly firmware-related) and not due to an individual DVR's defective operation. But there could be some factors specific to the individual set-up or usage that is contributing to the rebooting. I hope that TiVo addresses the issue and provides not just a resolution but feedback on the cause.
Ahhh, ask and ye shall receive!

http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb...9#post10039469

Quote:
Originally Posted by TiVoMargret View Post
We found an interaction between the box and the service that was causing some random reboots. We made a change to the service last night that should resolve the problem. Please make a connection to the TiVo Service.

If you experience more than one reboot after making the connection to the TiVo Service, please email me your TSN with the subject "Random Reboots". (margret@tivo.com)

I am very sorry for the trouble!
--Margret

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Old 03-13-2014, 12:57 PM   #237
nooneuknow
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Recent random reboot problem (multiple platforms) - TiVoMargret responds!

Quote:
Originally Posted by NotVeryWitty View Post
http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb...9#post10039469

Quote:
Originally Posted by TiVoMargret View Post
We found an interaction between the box and the service that was causing some random reboots. We made a change to the service last night that should resolve the problem. Please make a connection to the TiVo Service.

If you experience more than one reboot after making the connection to the TiVo Service, please email me your TSN with the subject "Random Reboots". (margret@tivo.com)

I am very sorry for the trouble!
--Margret
Great to hear!

However, if this "service interaction issue" causing the reboots caused any corruption of the databases/structures as a result of the primary cause, my advice in this post http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb...4#post10038994 may clean up any lingering issues.

If us TiVo users didn't have TiVoMargret, this issue would likely be repeatedly denied by the TiVo CS Reps, as even existing, go on for months, and we'd all be stuck doing the CSR scripted support dance, which usually includes finding any way to blame the problem on anything except TiVo (the product and/or the company).
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Old 03-17-2014, 01:57 PM   #238
akalion
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And I was just thinking how my Elite has not rebooted in the past several days. Previous to this, it was rebooting once or twice a day which started a month or so back! Knew it was not the hardware! Glad to see they worked it out!
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Old 05-25-2014, 03:00 AM   #239
nooneuknow
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http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb...d.php?t=517829

http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb...d.php?t=517733

Any Premiere owners wondering what's going on? Or, have the Premieres been spared this time?
__________________
...

Last edited by nooneuknow : 05-25-2014 at 09:03 PM.
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Old 05-25-2014, 10:20 AM   #240
b_scott
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my Tivo Premiere XL randomly rebooted in the middle of HBO's Real Time on Friday night.
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