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Old 02-20-2014, 09:56 AM   #31
mm2margaret
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I too have been in the network and computer support business since 1985. One thing I've learned about these forums is that despite my computer technical background, I have to be thick skinned to get what I need here. Reading posts doesn't convey the same way as if you were face to face and obviously it's much easier to to mis-read intentions.

The hardest thing for me to recognize is that while I am a really good computer support analyst and respectable network analyst, I might suck at the cable TV and "all things" MOCA infrastructure. Some things that I think should be 'logical' aren't. I don't always understand why some things work and others don't.
I'm now always ready to accept that some (all?) blame of a particular problem is really on my end (cabling, splitters, etc.) until proven differently.
Look, reasonable, and reasoned comments like yours are fine. But really nothing short of getting a coax cable tester, and going through the house connection by connection, there's no point. And I might still do that. I used to use them with the old Ethernet coax, but nobody I know has one anymore, but I guess I could buy one, I suppose.

As I mentioned earlier, there's no obvious splitters or amplifiers, unless they're in the attic, which is covered by insulation. I have not installed any splitters or amplifiers.

Is it worth it to rip through the attic disturbing all of the insulation searching for a potential problem? Is it worth to run Ethernet cable just to support the Mini? Well, for me no, it's not.

Bottom line is that Tivo got me again with the Mini. Like the early Premieres and the Slide Remote, the Mini is, another example of a product that kind of works.

The Mini cost me about $250, and I'm not ripping up my attic or running Ethernet cable just to support it. I'll sell it on E-Bay and take the loss.
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Old 02-20-2014, 10:42 AM   #32
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On another note, about the cabling in the house. This house was cabled with coax in every room. What that means is there are no amplifiers or splitters in the house.
If you don't have a splitter somewhere in the house that concatenates all of the lines, then each room would be on its own isolated segment. Your Mini would have never worked. You would also need a seperate cable company demarc for each room.
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Old 02-20-2014, 10:50 AM   #33
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I will contact Tivo for an RMA at this point
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I'll sell it on E-Bay and take the loss.
Would TiVo not RMA it for you?
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Old 02-20-2014, 02:54 PM   #34
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Would TiVo not RMA it for you?
Yes, I think they will, but I'm not keeping it. Once I get it back, I'll just sell it with the lifetime sub, and take my losses.

I already bought an old Premiere, which I'll use for now.....I used to have two Premiere's, with cable cards, etc and I sold them both. Wish I hadn't.
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Old 02-20-2014, 02:57 PM   #35
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I've said this before... but guys, it's always worth it to run ethernet. Always. Do it. seriously, suck it up and run the ethernet. Not just for your mini... to make your life better for all future technologies too.

I but a new device, and I don't have to deal with wireless signal, wireless security, blah blah blah. I just plug it in and it works.
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Old 02-20-2014, 03:29 PM   #36
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I've said this before... but guys, it's always worth it to run ethernet. Always. Do it. seriously, suck it up and run the ethernet. Not just for your mini... to make your life better for all future technologies too.

I but a new device, and I don't have to deal with wireless signal, wireless security, blah blah blah. I just plug it in and it works.
+1, I've been converting all my phone outlets in my house to Ethernet and all is good in my electronics world (TV's, computers, Tivo's, Roku's, etc). My Mini has been flawless since day 1 and streams from 3 different Tivo's (two of them 2 tuner Premiers) with zero glitches so I'm convinced that the mini is well designed for what it does.
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Old 02-20-2014, 04:19 PM   #37
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If you don't have a splitter somewhere in the house that concatenates all of the lines, then each room would be on its own isolated segment. Your Mini would have never worked. You would also need a seperate cable company demarc for each room.
I custom built my home in the late 90s but I did run RG6 quad shield from one point in the cellar to each cable outlet, so MoCA was easy for me, but I had a friend that required outside cable splitters to be removed and the cable run directly into the cellar to get his system to run using MoCA, a real pain.
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Old 02-20-2014, 06:26 PM   #38
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The Mini has a single run of cable from the wall to it. The Roamio has a single run of coax cable to it. I have not installed any splitters, nor have I found any. It is possible there are some, as they may have been installed when the house was built. But again, I haven't found any. There may be some in the attic. But again, every room receives cable tv signals, and does it perfectly. I have never had any issues with the TV signal in any of the rooms.
Surely there is at least one central splitter somewhere near where the cable service enters the house. You mentioned installing a POE filter. What is the POE filter connected to, if not a splitter? The POE filter should be installed on the input side of the central splitter. If you don't know whether it is or not, it could be hindering more than helping.

Once you find it, if there aren't enough outputs at the central splitter to feed all TV outlets, then you know there are other splitters someplace else too.

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Old 02-20-2014, 08:58 PM   #39
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Surely there is at least one central splitter somewhere near where the cable service enters the house. You mentioned installing a POE filter. What is the POE filter connected to, if not a splitter? The POE filter should be installed on the input side of the central splitter. If you don't know whether it is or not, it could be hindering more than helping.

Once you find it, if there aren't enough outputs at the central splitter to feed all TV outlets, then you know there are other splitters someplace else too.
Some homes/Apt. were built with taps for each cable outlet, saved time and cable but I don't know how such taps would work with MoCA. The POE filter should never be used until your MoCA system is up and running well, then, at you option, install the filter at cable input. I am sure people are not sitting on you cable hoping to lock onto your MoCA signal the second you turn it on. You won't find 1 in a thousand people who even knows what a MoCA signal is.
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Old 02-21-2014, 10:55 AM   #40
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+1, I've been converting all my phone outlets in my house to Ethernet and all is good in my electronics world (TV's, computers, Tivo's, Roku's, etc). My Mini has been flawless since day 1 and streams from 3 different Tivo's (two of them 2 tuner Premiers) with zero glitches so I'm convinced that the mini is well designed for what it does.
I'm getting ready to put my house on the market, and I know the first thing I will have to do, before I even move in, is run Cat5e or Cat6 to every bedroom and living space in the house.... I'm just ready for it. I know my wife is going to want to repaint every room anyways.... so, time to break out the drill, jig saw and fish tape and start running the cables! Patching drywall anymore is second nature with all the work I've had to do on my current house.

The one thing I haven't had to do in my current house is run ACROSS the joists... just pure luck with how the house is laid out (crawl space and some unfinished attic space), i could always run WITH them. I know this is going to come up at some point in the new house and I'll have to figure out a good way to do it.
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Old 02-21-2014, 12:31 PM   #41
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If you only need to go through a couple of studs/joists then one of those long semi flexible drill bits will work, if more than that then start cutting holes in the sheet rock every 4-5 feet or so to use the bit. My phone jacks were all Cat5 so the conversion to Ethernet was easy, just had to buy the test equipment, a couple tools and the jacks.
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Old 02-23-2014, 10:47 AM   #42
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Have you tried without the POE filter or reversing it? I read somewhere on these forums that installing it the wrong way hoses MOCA.
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Old 02-23-2014, 12:40 PM   #43
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Have you tried without the POE filter or reversing it? I read somewhere on these forums that installing it the wrong way hoses MOCA.
As I said above you don't need a POE filter when you first set up your MoCA system, don't even think of using a POE filter until you MoCA network system is working, the odds that someone is just waiting to get on your MoCA network is ridiculous, after all is working then you can put the POE filter on if it will make you feel better.
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Old 02-23-2014, 01:52 PM   #44
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Have you tried without the POE filter or reversing it? I read somewhere on these forums that installing it the wrong way hoses MOCA.
There's nothing directional about a POE filter.
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Old 02-24-2014, 11:15 AM   #45
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If you only need to go through a couple of studs/joists then one of those long semi flexible drill bits will work, if more than that then start cutting holes in the sheet rock every 4-5 feet or so to use the bit. My phone jacks were all Cat5 so the conversion to Ethernet was easy, just had to buy the test equipment, a couple tools and the jacks.
Yeah, that's what I was planning on doing but my main thing was researching the regulations on drilling holes in joists. I honestly am not sure if there's a point where you've drilled too many holes and now you're hurt the integrity of the wall.

But I am definitely getting one of those flexible drill bits.
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Old 02-24-2014, 03:38 PM   #46
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Yeah, that's what I was planning on doing but my main thing was researching the regulations on drilling holes in joists. I honestly am not sure if there's a point where you've drilled too many holes and now you're hurt the integrity of the wall.

But I am definitely getting one of those flexible drill bits.
One small hole for an cat cable will not be the straw that broke the camel's back in any stud, I have built many homes (years ago) and only the TGI studs/beams have any standards on holes and the holes you can make in TGI are already pre-marked.
Also make sure you don't drill into any pipes on the other side of a stud your drilling a hole in.
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Old 02-24-2014, 08:31 PM   #47
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One small hole for an cat cable will not be the straw that broke the camel's back in any stud, I have built many homes (years ago) and only the TGI studs/beams have any standards on holes and the holes you can make in TGI are already pre-marked.
Also make sure you don't drill into any pipes on the other side of a stud your drilling a hole in.
Yep, in can be interesting at times, water pipes, wires, heat ducts, central vacuum pipes and even fiberglass insulation can be a problem when it wraps up in a ball around the bit. Have fun!
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Old 02-24-2014, 11:14 PM   #48
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There's nothing directional about a POE filter.
Just relaying something I read. I don't use a POE filter myself on my MOCA network.
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Old 02-24-2014, 11:21 PM   #49
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Just relaying something I read. I don't use a POE filter myself on my MOCA network.
People should not use the POE filter until their MoCA system is fully working without problems, the chance of a MoCA hack is almost nonexistent as MoCA networks are so new compared to say WiFi.
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Old 02-25-2014, 01:48 PM   #50
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People should not use the POE filter until their MoCA system is fully working without problems, the chance of a MoCA hack is almost nonexistent as MoCA networks are so new compared to say WiFi.
That's not completely true as two devices each trying to be the ones creating a MOCA network at any given frequency are not compatible and might result in strange behaviors if such contention occurs intermittently... barely enough signal for your devices to see it sometimes, etc.

It's a lot less likely to be a problem the further away (in coax cable measurement) from any possible other cable subscriber, simply because of losses per foot over coax essentially accomplishing the same thing a POE filter accomplishes.
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Old 02-25-2014, 03:01 PM   #51
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One small hole for an cat cable will not be the straw that broke the camel's back in any stud, I have built many homes (years ago) and only the TGI studs/beams have any standards on holes and the holes you can make in TGI are already pre-marked.
Also make sure you don't drill into any pipes on the other side of a stud your drilling a hole in.
That's good advice. Thanks for the info!
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Old 02-25-2014, 04:40 PM   #52
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That's not completely true as two devices each trying to be the ones creating a MOCA network at any given frequency are not compatible and might result in strange behaviors if such contention occurs intermittently... barely enough signal for your devices to see it sometimes, etc.

It's a lot less likely to be a problem the further away (in coax cable measurement) from any possible other cable subscriber, simply because of losses per foot over coax essentially accomplishing the same thing a POE filter accomplishes.
Yes, but what are the odds of one of your neighbors also having a MoCA setup and also not using a POE filter, and be close enough to you to cause interference? I think that is very low possibility at this time as MoCA is too new. When smart TVs and routers start having built in MoCA the problem may get greater, as of now WiFi is the new built in adapter addition to electronics. (last few years)
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Old 02-25-2014, 05:39 PM   #53
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Yes, but what are the odds of one of your neighbors also having a MoCA setup and also not using a POE filter, and be close enough to you to cause interference? I think that is very low possibility at this time as MoCA is too new. When smart TVs and routers start having built in MoCA the problem may get greater, as of now WiFi is the new built in adapter addition to electronics. (last few years)
Not necessarily so,
We did a MoCA install at my Dad's house and I hadn't yet gotten the POE, there was a call to him from Comcast within a few days, a neighbor was having issues, the POE resolved them.
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Old 02-26-2014, 03:55 PM   #54
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Not necessarily so,
We did a MoCA install at my Dad's house and I hadn't yet gotten the POE, there was a call to him from Comcast within a few days, a neighbor was having issues, the POE resolved them.
So the neighbor was not using a POE filter ?? or was and still having issues that your Dads POE filter fixed.
Why did Comcast come to your Dads home?, is Comcast now looking for a MoCA signal on their outside cable ??.
Hard to believe the MoCA signal would survive going outside your Dads home through the cable drop/tap at the poll than back into your Dads neighbor tap with power enough to interfere with the signal at the neighbors home. Maybe this MoCA signal is more pervasive than I thought.
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Old 02-26-2014, 08:02 PM   #55
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So the neighbor was not using a POE filter ?? or was and still having issues that your Dads POE filter fixed.
Why did Comcast come to your Dads home?, is Comcast now looking for a MoCA signal on their outside cable ??.
Hard to believe the MoCA signal would survive going outside your Dads home through the cable drop/tap at the poll than back into your Dads neighbor tap with power enough to interfere with the signal at the neighbors home. Maybe this MoCA signal is more pervasive than I thought.
Neighbor apparently had issues and called Comcast support, I don't know if they had MoCA or not, I just know they called Comcast, the tech came out, reviewed, then tracked down my dad and said "hey, we're getting data leakage from you, you need to fix that" at that time Dad called me, I let him know we need a POE, and that satisfied the tech, I then installed it a few days later.

FWIW Dad is in a very VERY high tech neighborhood, house in front of him has one of the original Android peeps in it.
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Old 02-27-2014, 09:39 PM   #56
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The Solution!

Well, at least for me!

And it wasn't cheap, but I bought the latest, most expensive powerline adapters (Linksys AV2), and hooked up the Mini to Roamio via a switch.

And, it works. I thought after all the stuff I stirred up, I thought I should at least tell you all what finally solved my problem.

Not really happy that the Moca didn't work, but at least something is working...
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Old 02-27-2014, 10:53 PM   #57
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Well, at least for me!

And it wasn't cheap, but I bought the latest, most expensive powerline adapters (Linksys AV2), and hooked up the Mini to Roamio via a switch.

And, it works. I thought after all the stuff I stirred up, I thought I should at least tell you all what finally solved my problem.

Not really happy that the Moca didn't work, but at least something is working...
Either way, glad you have a solution, maybe not your preferred one, but a solution. I'm happy for you.
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Old 02-28-2014, 07:27 AM   #58
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And it wasn't cheap, but I bought the latest, most expensive powerline adapters (Linksys AV2), and hooked up the Mini to Roamio via a switch
Amusingly enough I'm the local PNA evangelist, and this was one of the rare threads I didn't mention them in
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Old 02-28-2014, 10:14 PM   #59
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Amusingly enough I'm the local PNA evangelist, and this was one of the rare threads I didn't mention them in
Well, I'm not really happy about it. I feel Tivo got me again.....but at least I have the option of using the Premiere I bought, and dump the Mini, or keep the Mini. That's something, I suppose.

I should have known.....I really wish I hadn't bought the Mini. It just wasn't worth the trouble.
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Old 03-04-2014, 02:11 AM   #60
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Well, I'm not really happy about it. I feel Tivo got me again.....but at least I have the option of using the Premiere I bought, and dump the Mini, or keep the Mini. That's something, I suppose.

I should have known.....I really wish I hadn't bought the Mini. It just wasn't worth the trouble.
TiVo over MoCA rules. You just can't get any easier than unhooking the coax from a cable box and screwing it into the Mini and setting networking to MoCA. Of course it helps when your provider is FiOS and all your coax is fairly new commercial grade. Knew nothing about MoCA until being told how simple setting up Mini's would be on FiOS. So I replaced 5 cable boxes at my folks house with 4 Minis and a Roamio Plus.

Worked so well I setup MoCA in my apt btwn my RCN TiVo Q and my Premiere. Since the Premiere doesn't support MoCA I used an Actiontec Coax Network Adapter 3500T and a splitter. TiVo uses one Gigabit Ethernet port leaving three free for the TV and Roku.
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