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Old 02-14-2014, 08:40 AM   #1
mm2margaret
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Mini is useless - V87 errors

So, I have a Mini that has essentially become useless.

I am constantly getting bombarded with v87 errors, often followed by c422 errors, and I am completely unable to use it at all.

It was fine for a while, but of late it's become a liability. I just wonder if Tivo will ever figure out streaming. Other products can do it, but Tivo just can't as far as I'm concerned.

I've done the usual: I've researched this forum, the Tivo forum, restarted everything, re-initialized the Moca connection on the Mini, the Roamio, assigned static IP addresses, and nothing stops the v87 errors, which means the product is useless.

I should say that the Mini is connected via Moca to the Roamio. I've read somewhere that some folks have suggested running ethernet cable between the Roamio and their Mini's, but here on this forum, there are plenty of folks who have tried this and are also having problems. And, as Moca is the recommended way to connect the Mini to the Roamio, and it did work for a while, not sure what that would accomplish.

Love to hear if anyone has any ideas....
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Old 02-14-2014, 09:48 AM   #2
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You have network problems. This isn't TiVo figuring out streaming; it is hardware or a setting somewhere - it definitely could be the TiVo with hardware problems.

I would think that changing networks is the obvious way to debug. Connect via ethernet and see what happens.

The two main problem paths to look at are
1, Hardware on your Moca network
2. Somehow having gotten two networks going. Plenty of people have run into this where two out of the three networks (Moca, wireless, ethernet) are being used, with the expected confusion and errors.
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Old 02-14-2014, 10:23 AM   #3
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I understand your frustration, as I experienced the exact same problem with the Mini while using a MoCA connection. However, since switching to an Ethernet connection the Minis have worked flawlessly (knock wood). Is Ethernet a possibility for you at all? One of my Ethernet connections is through a MoCA adapter - and that was the most problematic Mini in my setup when it was using only MoCA.
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Old 02-14-2014, 11:54 AM   #4
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As stated above, it sounds like you have a network issue that's manifesting in the MoCA setup. I'm not sure where the scads of folks having it still happen with ethernet is coming from, most folks say that going ethernet resolves issues. MoCA is sensitive to all sorts of wiring issues, especially bad connections, older unterminated connections, bad splitters, etc.

I'd say the first step would be to test with ethernet, even if it means moving the mini for a day or so for testing.
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Old 02-14-2014, 08:25 PM   #5
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So, while I can run about 50 ft of Ethernet cable around the stairs and through a door as a temporary test, it's not practical to leave it there. So even if it works, I don't know what good long term it would be. Running Ethernet cable just for the Mini, because it can't do what Tivo says it can do, run on Moca, seems unreasonable given that I've invested a lot of money in Moca adapters, etc.

I've been around the bend with Tivo; I've had HDs, two Premieres and now this configuration of Roamio and the Mini.

Folks, other vendors can do streaming. Sling can do it, others as well. It's not rocket science. But Tivo just can't.

MRV is broken and it can't get up. That's my opinion.

I'll let you all know what good running 50-75 ft of Ethernet cable through the house will do.

Jesus, what a pain. Sorry, but I'm pissed.
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Old 02-14-2014, 08:35 PM   #6
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Have you performed troubleshooting on your coax wiring at all? I am not an expert in this arena, but if this is your first foray with MoCA, it would seem quite possible that it would be an issue with the coax, be it a splitter/amp issue, the need for a PoE filter, or just sub-standard wire.
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Old 02-14-2014, 08:42 PM   #7
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Have you performed troubleshooting on your coax wiring at all? I am not an expert in this arena, but if this is your first foray with MoCA, it would seem quite possible that it would be an issue with the coax, be it a splitter/amp issue, the need for a PoE filter, or just sub-standard wire.

I appreciate all of the attempts to help, by the way. I do appreciate you taking the time to post.
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Old 02-14-2014, 09:47 PM   #8
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Originally Posted by mm2margaret View Post
So, while I can run about 50 ft of Ethernet cable around the stairs and through a door as a temporary test, it's not practical to leave it there. So even if it works, I don't know what good long term it would be. Running Ethernet cable just for the Mini, because it can't do what Tivo says it can do, run on Moca, seems unreasonable given that I've invested a lot of money in Moca adapters, etc.

I've been around the bend with Tivo; I've had HDs, two Premieres and now this configuration of Roamio and the Mini.

Folks, other vendors can do streaming. Sling can do it, others as well. It's not rocket science. But Tivo just can't.

MRV is broken and it can't get up. That's my opinion.

I'll let you all know what good running 50-75 ft of Ethernet cable through the house will do.

Jesus, what a pain. Sorry, but I'm pissed.
I'm sorry you're having problems, but how do you know you should be pissed at TiVo and not at your wiring?

Thousands of folks are running their Minis on MoCa. There is something that is different in your Moca setup than their's, given that you have identical software and supposedly identical hardware. Whether it be cable amps, bad splitters, attenuators, loose connections, bad wires, bad Moca routers, bad TiVo hardware or whatever, something is different and causing you problems. Comparatively few of the possible problems can be TiVo's fault.
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Old 02-15-2014, 12:46 AM   #9
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"Tivo just cant do streaming"

My mini and XL4 have been 99.99% reliable. A couple of weird glitches on the initial software, and rock solid since.

Apparently I am delusional and am not watching it stream every night when I go to bed for an hour or two, mostly over Moca to its host, or occasionally over another hop of ethernet through the XL4 to the base premiere.

So, either you have a dud unit, or your wiring has issues.

The suggestion is to try it over ethernet as a first troubleshooting step. If it doesn't work over ethernet, then you likely have a dud mini or Roamio. Your other choice is to move the Mini to a location that has ethernet temporarily instead of running cable through the house.

Or, you can choose to skip that step and begin troubleshooting your coax problems. Or, just complain its Tivo's fault.

What other steps have you already taken? What results did you find? What adjustments have you made based on those findings?

Have you rebooted everything, including your cable modem, router, switches, the mini and the Roamio?

What model Roamio? a base? What device is creating the moca network, the Roamio or do you have an adapter?

How exactly is everything configured? What is your coax wiring layout/configuration? What changes have you made to the wiring to combat your problems? Are you OTA, Fios or cable? If cable, do you have a POE filter? Have you checked for open taps on splitters, old, out of spec splitters, bad terminations on cables, weird configuration of splitters leading to low signal levels, etc

What do the network diagnostics for Moca say on both ends?
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Old 02-15-2014, 02:16 AM   #10
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If you have a spare coax cable long enough, connect the Roamio directly to the Mini. If it's a Roamio Base, use a single splitter and also connect the MOCA adapter you're using into the cabling, but keep it disconnected from everything else.

If your Mini is then able to communicate reliably with the Roamio, you'll need to look at the remainder of your coax wiring configuration to identify what sort of changes you can try making.

If you are still unable to get reliable communication between the Roamio and Mini, then one of the two devices has a problem and needs to be fixed.
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Old 02-15-2014, 04:28 AM   #11
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I am having the same problem with my Mini, and I have a ethernet connection (brand new cable). This mini was previously hooked up to a Premiere, and I never had a problem. I just purchased a Roamio Plus, and this is when I started having issues. I am also getting error messages when watching a transferred program on the Roamio itself.
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Old 02-15-2014, 09:33 AM   #12
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Originally Posted by mm2margaret View Post
I'll let you all know what good running 50-75 ft of Ethernet cable through the house will do.
Jesus, what a pain. Sorry, but I'm pissed.
Quote:
Originally Posted by dianebrat View Post
I'd say the first step would be to test with ethernet, even if it means moving the mini for a day or so for testing.
There's no reason to run a 50ft + run of ethernet and all the encompassing hassle, you can test it by just picking up the Mini and bringing it to the other room.
I'm not suggesting that it's permanent, just that it's a simple and easy way to test and make sure it's not the Mini and Tivo that are the problem and help you narrow it down to the wiring.
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Old 02-16-2014, 01:11 PM   #13
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Originally Posted by CrispyCritter View Post
I'm sorry you're having problems, but how do you know you should be pissed at TiVo and not at your wiring?

Thousands of folks are running their Minis on MoCa. There is something that is different in your Moca setup than their's, given that you have identical software and supposedly identical hardware. Whether it be cable amps, bad splitters, attenuators, loose connections, bad wires, bad Moca routers, bad TiVo hardware or whatever, something is different and causing you problems. Comparatively few of the possible problems can be TiVo's fault.
Well, let's be honest here. Sure, my Coax could be the problem, but the point is that if you've had any experience with Tivo, you know that they often bring out half baked products.

Point One: I bought one of the early Premiere's with one of the worst software releases in history, and it took about a year before they fixed it. Yes, I spent hours, actually I think it was days, troubleshooting it, and nothing worked, until Tivo fixed their product (software).
Point Two: I bought the slide remote, which worked sometimes and then stopped working. Then magically, it would start working again. Then it would stop. Again hours spent troubleshooting with NO fix. Money, time and effort a total waste.
Point Three: If you check this forum, v87 errors are listed numerous times. Currently there are three posts with v87 errors. There are many other posts with other errors.

So, my take is Tivo brought another questionable piece of hardware, promoted using your existing Coax cable to sell it, and sure, for some it works. For many, it does not.

That's not good enough, in my book.

And, you know, in my upstairs bedroom, I installed Chromecast, and I use my wireless to cast Hulu videos to the TV. The Chromecast uses my wireless, which upstairs has the worst reception in my home. Guess what? Chromecast can stream. On s***ty wireless, all the way down to router and back, and yet, it works.

I repeat: streaming is not rocket science. Sling can do it, Chromecast can do it and do it on s***ty wireless.

Tivo can't. I say, no matter what the problem is, Tivo just can't stream, unless the connections are nearly perfect, which, I feel, is not a reasonable level of performance given the price they are charging for the product.

I have connected it via Ethernet, and we'll see if that fixes it, or if I have bad hardware. But really, I just want my money back.
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Old 02-17-2014, 09:23 AM   #14
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Just to cover my bases...

I have a Roamio Pro.
I have installed a POE Filter, contrary to Comcast's advice.
I have statically addressed my Roamio and my Mini
I have rebooted everything
I have spent hours troubleshooting this.
Wired Ethernet works partially.
I will contact Tivo for an RMA at this point

But, my comment stands, that when it comes to streaming, People should not buy a Mini. I wish I had bought a Sling.
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Old 02-17-2014, 09:47 AM   #15
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Well, the Mini and Sling do completely different things...

Do you have a powered coax splitter on your network? That can wreck havoc on a Moca signal!

Do you have the ability to trace your COAX line and determine how many splitters are in the line between your Mini and the source? You can generally assume there isn't a splitter "in the wall", so if you can trace the termination points you should be able to count them.

Is your Roamio acting as your MOCA bridge? If yes, you will want to track to number of splitters from the Roamio back to the common connection point (generally the source).

The Mini is one of the most reliable products TiVo has put out in a long time, so, unless you received a bad unit, the issue is hidden someplace in your network.
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Old 02-17-2014, 10:45 AM   #16
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Just to cover my bases...

I have a Roamio Pro.
I have installed a POE Filter, contrary to Comcast's advice.
I have statically addressed my Roamio and my Mini
I have rebooted everything
I have spent hours troubleshooting this.
Wired Ethernet works partially.
I will contact Tivo for an RMA at this point

But, my comment stands, that when it comes to streaming, People should not buy a Mini. I wish I had bought a Sling.
Been using a Mini from the first day I could purchase one at Best Buy, got the error the first day I set the system up VIA MoCA, the next day all worked great, and I have never had a problem, so I have to conclude that your Mini problem is a problem in your home or with the Mini itself, not Minis in general.
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Old 02-17-2014, 11:51 AM   #17
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Been using a Mini from the first day I could purchase one at Best Buy, got the error the first day I set the system up VIA MoCA, the next day all worked great, and I have never had a problem, so I have to conclude that your Mini problem is a problem in your home or with the Mini itself, not Minis in general.
Same here, and my Mini has been on MoCA, Ethernet, and now ethernet over PNA, it's always worked flawlessly.

The Mini architecture isn't the issue here, either there's a defective unit or a network problem in the OPs home. Note that a network issue could easily go across the types of network such as wireless, MoCA, and RJ45.
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Old 02-19-2014, 08:43 AM   #18
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Folks:

First of all, if I have network problems, how is it possible for Chromecast to work perfectly and stream perfectly on my crummy incompetent wireless network?

And I would also say that just because the Mini works for you does not mean its' design is flawless. A device that works 80-90% of the time is neither a good device nor a reliable device.

Here's the truth: the reason Tivo does not sell the Mini as a wired ethernet only device is because it wouldn't sell. Few homeowners have the desire or the funds to run ethernet cable for such a device. But that's really what the Mini is: a wired ethernet only device.
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Old 02-19-2014, 09:03 AM   #19
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Folks:

First of all, if I have network problems, how is it possible for Chromecast to work perfectly and stream perfectly on my crummy incompetent wireless network?
Because the two networks have nothing at all to do with each other! MoCa and wireless are entirely different transport mechanisms. Why do you expect a possible problem with wiring in MoCa to affect a wireless network?

The fact that you don't know anything about networks is not a reflection on you at all. However, blaming TiVo for your network problems is ludicrous, given that lack of knowledge.
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Old 02-19-2014, 12:24 PM   #20
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mm2Margaret, where is your POE filter installed?
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Old 02-19-2014, 01:24 PM   #21
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Point Three: If you check this forum, v87 errors are listed numerous times. Currently there are three posts with v87 errors. There are many other posts with other errors.
There are 392 threads in this sub-forum. 13 of those threads contain one or more posts that have the term "V87" in them. Thats 3.13%.

There are 7,875 individual posts in this sub-forum. 26 of those posts contain the term "V87" in them. That's 0.33%.

IMO, that's not numerous.

Quote:
And, you know, in my upstairs bedroom, I installed Chromecast, and I use my wireless to cast Hulu videos to the TV. The Chromecast uses my wireless, which upstairs has the worst reception in my home. Guess what? Chromecast can stream. On s***ty wireless, all the way down to router and back, and yet, it works.
You know your wireless is sh***ty, but you seem oblivious to the fact that the coax cables in your house can be making your MoCa network even more sh***ty than your wireless network.

Quote:
I repeat: streaming is not rocket science. Sling can do it, Chromecast can do it and do it on s***ty wireless.
Can you run 3+ Chromecasts at the same time, each streaming a different show in 1080?

That's the type of environment that streaming has to work in where things get a little more complex than how you do stuff in your house.

Rocket science? Hardly. But setting up one Chromecast (regardless of the network condition) and proclaiming "That, folks, is how streaming is done" is pretty silly.
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Old 02-19-2014, 10:08 PM   #22
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Because the two networks have nothing at all to do with each other! MoCa and wireless are entirely different transport mechanisms. Why do you expect a possible problem with wiring in MoCa to affect a wireless network?

The fact that you don't know anything about networks is not a reflection on you at all. However, blaming TiVo for your network problems is ludicrous, given that lack of knowledge.
I'm a CCIE, idiot. Look it up, just in case you don't know what that is.

And, just for the record, I never said that Moca and Wireless were the same networks. Of course, they're different. The Wireless network is, or should be, far inferior to it's ability to carry network data, video data, given how poor the signal is in my bedroom.

The comparision is valid. A not very robust wireless network environment, versus a functioning coax cable environment, at least for the cable signals to my bedroom, which work fine, EXCEPT for the Mini.
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Old 02-19-2014, 10:14 PM   #23
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mm2Margaret, where is your POE filter installed?
At the POE into my house
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Old 02-20-2014, 12:51 AM   #24
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At the POE into my house
Cool, just checking.
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Old 02-20-2014, 04:50 AM   #25
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Arguing aside...

Network issue resolution with moca is usually the same.

- Splitters and barrel connectors between devices should be rated for at least 1000 MHz and not too old/weathered.
- Any amps in the way should also be bi-directional 1000 MHz. Ideally they're located at the POE anyway.
- A POE filter is beneficial.
- There's always the chance a coax line itself is too damaged, old, or not solidly connected somewhere.

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Old 02-20-2014, 08:00 AM   #26
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Cool, just checking.

No problem. Non-abusive attempts to help are appreciated. I would prefer to resolve this issue. I would prefer that the Mini to work, rather than not work.

On another note, about the cabling in the house. This house was cabled with coax in every room. What that means is there are no amplifiers or splitters in the house.

The Mini has a single run of cable from the wall to it. The Roamio has a single run of coax cable to it. I have not installed any splitters, nor have I found any. It is possible there are some, as they may have been installed when the house was built. But again, I haven't found any. There may be some in the attic. But again, every room receives cable tv signals, and does it perfectly. I have never had any issues with the TV signal in any of the rooms.

There was an Actiontec Moca Adapter plugged into the Mini, which has been removed. Plugged in or not, it does not make any difference.
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Old 02-20-2014, 08:03 AM   #27
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I'm a CCIE, idiot. Look it up, just in case you don't know what that is.
Wow, completely unnecessary. Nobody knows your expertise, and you certainly did not come across as a "CCIE" in your email thread or lack of professionalism. The folks here are trying to help you.
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Old 02-20-2014, 08:05 AM   #28
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Arguing aside...

Network issue resolution with moca is usually the same.

- Splitters and barrel connectors between devices should be rated for at least 1000 MHz and not too old/weathered.
- Any amps in the way should also be bi-directional 1000 MHz. Ideally they're located at the POE anyway.
- A POE filter is beneficial.
- There's always the chance a coax line itself is too damaged, old, or not solidly connected somewhere.
About a week or so ago, after a TW service visit for a missing channel on my lineup (whole 'nother issue), I started getting V87 errors on both my mini's and I'm also using MOCA from my Roamio plus. I'd note that my coax in the attic is all fairly new, heavy gauge used for my previous satellite setup.
The only things that changed during that time frame was:
1) I received a patch (update) due to occasional V112 errors (fixed V112 errors)
2) TW Service man replaced my 3 way splitter in attic (5-2040Mhz) with his own 3 way splitter.
3) TW service man took off my POE filter (which was right before 3 way splitter) since he wasn't familiar with what it was/does.

So I did these three things:
1) put back my 3 way splitter that I specifically bought for my MOCA network.
2) Changed my IP configuration on my Roamio and 2 mini's to static IP's.
3) Put the POE filter back on where I had it.

Since then I have not had a single V87 error and nothing else has changed other than the two things I mentioned.
The fact that I started getting these errors on both my mini's after TW switched out my splitter was my problem in my opinion. My dB signals never really changed but somehow his splitter must have not had the same range (it wasn't labeled) as the one I bought does.

I think I also read that the POE filter helps by reflecting signals back into your MOCA network instead of letting them 'bleed' outside of your network

Either way, for the past 3 weeks, no more V87 errors.
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Old 02-20-2014, 08:13 AM   #29
mm2margaret
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Originally Posted by jrtroo View Post
Wow, completely unnecessary. Nobody knows your expertise, and you certainly did not come across as a "CCIE" in your email thread or lack of professionalism. The folks here are trying to help you.
With all due respect to you, I feel that some of the remarks posted here were nothing more than abuse. Yes, there have been some helpful remarks, actually the majority of remarks and comments have been, but some, in particular two, were not, and were very personal. I am a very experienced Network Engineer, and a very experienced Tivo owner. I've had six of them. My comments, up until the remark you referenced, were only about Tivo and some of it's failures, which should be fair comment in this forum.

But when it becomes personal, yes, I will fight back.
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Old 02-20-2014, 08:38 AM   #30
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Originally Posted by mm2margaret View Post
With all due respect to you, I feel that some of the remarks posted here were nothing more than abuse. Yes, there have been some helpful remarks, actually the majority of remarks and comments have been, but some, in particular two, were not, and were very personal. I am a very experienced Network Engineer, and a very experienced Tivo owner. I've had six of them. My comments, up until the remark you referenced, were only about Tivo and some of it's failures, which should be fair comment in this forum.

But when it becomes personal, yes, I will fight back.
I too have been in the network and computer support business since 1985. One thing I've learned about these forums is that despite my computer technical background, I have to be thick skinned to get what I need here. Reading posts doesn't convey the same way as if you were face to face and obviously it's much easier to to mis-read intentions.

The hardest thing for me to recognize is that while I am a really good computer support analyst and respectable network analyst, I might suck at the cable TV and "all things" MOCA infrastructure. Some things that I think should be 'logical' aren't. I don't always understand why some things work and others don't.
I'm now always ready to accept that some (all?) blame of a particular problem is really on my end (cabling, splitters, etc.) until proven differently.
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