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Old 02-13-2014, 07:27 AM   #121
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Originally Posted by john4200 View Post
Which does not work as an explanation, since the closest walker to Michonne in a couple scenes was one of the herd, not her pets. She would need to keep her pets on a very short leash for your explanation to work.
Robert Kirkman, who wrote this episode, created the show, and is probably as high up as you can go without being the showrunner, lives in LA, as does the writing staff. I have on several occasions suspected that there's a disconnect between what goes on in the LA writer's room and what goes on on the Georgia sets & locations...either situations where the writer writes something without thikning about how it would block out and the director doesn't fix it, or the director doesn't understand or get some element of the script. This might be such a case...the writer (Kirkman) has a notion of how the pets work as zombie repellent (he also wrote the comic story in which they first appeared), but the director doesn't know and/or care, and just shoots to be cool.

I've always wondered about shows that are written in LA and shot in Vancouver, and how they get around the geographic disconnect; do the writers have a representative on the set? Do they write extremely detailed instructions as to how certain scenes should be filmed? Etc. And I've always suspected that either WD doesn't have such safeguards, or they don't work.

(The scenes I've noticed in the past usually involve geography...zombies attacking out of nowhere in the middle of a field, somebody in a car tracking somebody on foot with no apparent way of telling where they are; etc. As if they don't take the script into account when choosing locations, and then don't fix the scenes when shooting them.)
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Old 02-13-2014, 08:39 AM   #122
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Early in the episode Rick made a big deal about telling Carl not to waste bullets. That was after Carl uses one to kill the "do what I couldn't do" zombie which Rick was trying to use the axe on. He (Rick) said something like "one bullet can make a difference".

So... who else thought, when Carl was being overrun by 3 zombies, that he was going to come up one bullet short? I sure did.

...

I agree that "sick Rick appearing to be a zombie" was a bad contrivance made for dramatic purposes. No need to go there.

...

The zombie that looked like Michone (sp?)... that was simply her imagination. Right?
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Old 02-13-2014, 08:41 AM   #123
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The zombie that looked like Michone (sp?)... that was simply her imagination. Right?
Talking dead response to that

Spoiler:
They said she just came across one that looked like her and it snapped her out of her funk, she realized she didn't want to be dead yet. So I'd say real, not in her head

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Old 02-13-2014, 08:48 AM   #124
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Talking dead response to that

Spoiler:
They said she just came across one that looked like her and it snapped her out of her funk, she realized she didn't want to be dead yet. So I'd say real, not in her head
But the first time she 'saw' the doppelganger zombie, she looked a second time and realized it was a white woman zombie.

I think it was just her imagination. If it wasn't, then they did a poor job with continuity/direction. Go back and watch the first time she sees the Michone zombie and tell me if I'm wrong.
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Old 02-13-2014, 08:54 AM   #125
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But the first time she 'saw' the doppelganger zombie, she looked a second time and realized it was a white woman zombie.

I think it was just her imagination. If it wasn't, then they did a poor job with continuity/direction. Go back and watch the first time she sees the Michone zombie and tell me if I'm wrong.
It appeared that way to me, too.
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Old 02-13-2014, 08:58 AM   #126
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Early in the episode Rick made a big deal about telling Carl not to waste bullets. That was after Carl uses one to kill the "do what I couldn't do" zombie which Rick was trying to use the axe on. He (Rick) said something like "one bullet can make a difference".

So... who else thought, when Carl was being overrun by 3 zombies, that he was going to come up one bullet short? I sure did.
*raises hand*

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I agree that "sick Rick appearing to be a zombie" was a bad contrivance made for dramatic purposes. No need to go there.
I don't think it was just a contrivance. It forced Carl to face the realization that he couldn't do it by himself after all. He, basically, gave up: if Rick was dead then he felt he might as well just die right there because he wouldn't make it.
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Old 02-13-2014, 09:11 AM   #127
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I agree that "sick Rick appearing to be a zombie" was a bad contrivance made for dramatic purposes. No need to go there.
Right?
That was the whole point of the episode. Everything led up to that point. Carl being cocky and thinking the whole season he would have made the tough decisions and save the group. This whole episode was him making decisions on his own and barely making it. At the end when HE perceived Rick was turning HE decided he couldn't do it and wanted to give up. It's a cathartic change moment for him. We saw the moment and the episode mostly from HIS point of view. The director even said it was about him giving up.

The problem is a lot of viewers come in with the baggage of not liking Carl and therefore discount his story and anything about him.

They could have shown the scene from Ricks point of view barely being able to speak and trying to tell Carl to not shoot him but that would not have conveyed Carl's moment.
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Old 02-13-2014, 10:18 AM   #128
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Which does not work as an explanation, since the closest walker to Michonne in a couple scenes was one of the herd, not her pets. She would need to keep her pets on a very short leash for your explanation to work.
As I said, the walkers make their "assessment" of whether there is anything in the area worth chasing based on the other walkers around. So when that closest walker to Michonne first encountered the group, it saw a bunch of zombies ambling along, not chasing anything, and therefore it also had no reason to chase anything. Since nothing about that assessment changed even when the walker got close to Michonne, there was no need to alter its behavior. Only when Michonne changed her behavior and made it clear to the walkers that she wasn't one of them, did they have to "re-assess" the situation and determine that she was an appropriate target.

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But the first time she 'saw' the doppelganger zombie, she looked a second time and realized it was a white woman zombie.

I think it was just her imagination. If it wasn't, then they did a poor job with continuity/direction. Go back and watch the first time she sees the Michone zombie and tell me if I'm wrong.
It wasn't just her imagination. It was simply poor editing. In that next scene, when she looks over and sees the white woman, the camera then pulls back and you see the walker with dreadlocks walking behind the white woman.



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Early in the episode Rick made a big deal about telling Carl not to waste bullets. That was after Carl uses one to kill the "do what I couldn't do" zombie which Rick was trying to use the axe on. He (Rick) said something like "one bullet can make a difference".

So... who else thought, when Carl was being overrun by 3 zombies, that he was going to come up one bullet short? I sure did.
Me three.
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Old 02-13-2014, 10:19 AM   #129
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I know I'm probably in the minority on this, but this episode was one of the most boring hours of television I've ever watched.

Rick takes a nap. Michonne wanders aimlessly. Carl eats pudding.

There wasn't any suspense, as I was almost certain all three of these people would be fine and be together by the end of the episode. It felt like filler material thrown in to position us for the story that will happen in another couple of episodes. Next week's episode looks a little more entertaining.
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Old 02-13-2014, 10:21 AM   #130
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*raises hand*

I don't think it was just a contrivance. It forced Carl to face the realization that he couldn't do it by himself after all. He, basically, gave up: if Rick was dead then he felt he might as well just die right there because he wouldn't make it.
That was my impression also. He was pretty much done with it all. After he realized he could not head-kill his father, he just turned his head to let him have at it.
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Old 02-13-2014, 10:25 AM   #131
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I know I'm probably in the minority on this, but this episode was one of the most boring hours of television I've ever watched. Rick takes a nap. Michonne wanders aimlessly. Carl eats pudding. There wasn't any suspense, as I was almost certain all three of these people would be fine and be together by the end of the episode. It felt like filler material thrown in to position us for the story that will happen in another couple of episodes. Next week's episode looks a little more entertaining.
I think this episode was given over completely for character development....of Carl and Michonne. The action and the physical things didn't move very far along, but we see them change emotionally. That's sort of hard to show during non-stop zombie battles. I think it was well done.
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Old 02-13-2014, 10:27 AM   #132
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Yeah, I think it's a great setup for whatever this half of the season will entail.

Glad they did this one, really baselines what the new normal for them is (out of the prison)
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Old 02-13-2014, 12:08 PM   #133
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As I said, the walkers make their "assessment" of whether there is anything in the area worth chasing based on the other walkers around. So when that closest walker to Michonne first encountered the group, it saw a bunch of zombies ambling along, not chasing anything, and therefore it also had no reason to chase anything. Since nothing about that assessment changed even when the walker got close to Michonne, there was no need to alter its behavior.
So now you are getting back to the problem someone else pointed out. You are assuming the walkers are rather smart. This explanation requires that they remember something that happened some hours ago: Walker is right by Michonne, mmmmm, smell yummy fresh meat! But wait, when I first saw her 2 hours ago those other walkers were closer and they did not eat her, so she must not be good to eat. I'll ignore her.
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Old 02-13-2014, 12:18 PM   #134
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I think everyone is giving too much thought to the walker's awareness and ability to think.

The way I see it, it's nothing more than animal instinct.

Just like if one deer throws up it's tail the other deer will instantly be on alert. Or how those huge flocks of birds or schools of fish seem to move together as one huge organism.

None of it requires thought. It just is.
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Old 02-13-2014, 12:51 PM   #135
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I think everyone is giving too much thought to the walker's awareness and ability to think.

The way I see it, it's nothing more than animal instinct.
So, the instinct here is: mmmmm, I smell yummy fresh meat. I will eat it!

Except, walkers right next to Michonne (closer than her pets) do not eat the yummy fresh meat.

There is no plausible in-story explanation. The out of story explanations sound plausible (do it just because it looks cool, or some disconnect between writing and directing)
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Old 02-13-2014, 01:17 PM   #136
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We have seen that smell is very important for the walkers. People have temporarily gotten away with disguising themselves with walker guts and blood until it rained. If she were standing close enough, they might not smell her. But that doesn't work in this scene -- just possibly in the general "how do her pets work" sense. How things occurred here was unclear. Probably just a plot hole created by directing choices.
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Old 02-13-2014, 01:24 PM   #137
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Except, walkers right next to Michonne (closer than her pets) do not eat the yummy fresh meat.
If she looks, acts, smells, and sounds like a walker, then why would the walkers attack her? Their senses appear to be much duller than ours, so blending in should not be that difficult. The bigger question to me is why everyone in the series doesn't do what Michonne does. Her technique seems to work well.

I think it's blending in is more about behavior than anything else. When people are swarmed, it's usually either when they're engaged in combat, or when they're fleeing in fear. Lots of animals seem to be able to sense fear by visual behavior cues.
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Old 02-13-2014, 01:36 PM   #138
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If she looks, acts, smells, and sounds like a walker, then why would the walkers attack her?
Because she does not smell like a walker, and walkers supposedly distinguish other walkers from fresh meat by their sense of smell.
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Old 02-13-2014, 01:56 PM   #139
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I thought this was probably one of THEE best Walking Dead episodes thus far.

Put me in the camp of Carl haters who liked him.

When Carl came across the zombie that took his shoe they SO caught be off guard I jumped up and accidentally bit my lip.
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Old 02-13-2014, 02:59 PM   #140
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I'll probably have to go back and watch this ep again, but there was very little conversation between Rick and Carl about Judith. From my recollection right now, there was just one mention by Carl? I didn't catch a feeling if they think or know she's dead, but they sure didn't seem to act like they weren't sure if she was alive.

Anybody get a feeling one way or another (from the show, not other sources) as to Judith's fate yet? They just didn't seem too concerned about her.
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Old 02-13-2014, 03:09 PM   #141
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How much time has passed since the prison and what we saw in the new episode? From the looks of ricks face, I think not much. They probably haven't really had time to process anything about Judith.
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Old 02-13-2014, 03:17 PM   #142
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I'll probably have to go back and watch this ep again, but there was very little conversation between Rick and Carl about Judith. From my recollection right now, there was just one mention by Carl? I didn't catch a feeling if they think or know she's dead, but they sure didn't seem to act like they weren't sure if she was alive.
I got the distinct impression they think she is dead -
- but I did think boy o boy Rick doesn't care really all that much - it's almost like she was an afterthought.
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Old 02-13-2014, 03:24 PM   #143
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I got the distinct impression they think she is dead -
- but I did think boy o boy Rick doesn't care really all that much - it's almost like she was an afterthought.
I wouldn't say that. We watch the shows a week at a time but in their world there is no week between all this.

Also there was a lot of carnage going on and there are many people he has no idea what happened to. He was also severely beaten. He has barely been coherent since it all happened. I would simply put him in the shock category.

Just like us watching most of them are in the dark for now.
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Old 02-13-2014, 07:23 PM   #144
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So... who else thought, when Carl was being overrun by 3 zombies, that he was going to come up one bullet short? I sure did.
Yeah I figured they were going for something there but I don't think it ended up really mattering. I think it would have been cool if the episode followed Carl using bullets on the walkers he comes across throughout, then when he thinks Rick has turned he closes his eyes, pulls the trigger and CLICK, no more bullets, resulting in a major WHEEEW moment. But then that would negate the whole point of the scene which was Carl not being able to pull the trigger, etc... I wonder if the "bullet" mantra is gonna pay off in some future episode.

I was OK with the episode, but I'm really looking forward to next week. This one was very sleepy and only focused on a few people - next weeks should get into what happened with everyone else. I think the way the ended the mid-season finale with everyone being split up was a great idea, it gives them a bunch of stuff to mine for the rest of the season, and solves one of the biggest complains people have, which is the group staying in one location for too long (the farm, the prison). Now it's a story of people trying to survive in the wild and, hopefully, be reunited eventually.
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Old 02-13-2014, 09:55 PM   #145
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I'll probably have to go back and watch this ep again, but there was very little conversation between Rick and Carl about Judith. From my recollection right now, there was just one mention by Carl? I didn't catch a feeling if they think or know she's dead, but they sure didn't seem to act like they weren't sure if she was alive.

Anybody get a feeling one way or another (from the show, not other sources) as to Judith's fate yet? They just didn't seem too concerned about her.
They definitely think she's dead, based on their reaction from the last episode and also this one.

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How much time has passed since the prison and what we saw in the new episode? From the looks of ricks face, I think not much. They probably haven't really had time to process anything about Judith.
I think this episode started later the same day as the previous episode.

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Also there was a lot of carnage going on and there are many people he has no idea what happened to. He was also severely beaten. He has barely been coherent since it all happened. I would simply put him in the shock category.
I agree with this, but I think that's why there's been no conversation about Judith. They both think she's dead. They can't talk about it yet, especially Rick.
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Old 02-13-2014, 10:58 PM   #146
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Because she does not smell like a walker, and walkers supposedly distinguish other walkers from fresh meat by their sense of smell.
She just dismembered and de-jawed two walkers, tied them to a rope, and hauled them with her. She doesn't have access to a shower. Why would she not smell like walker?

Furthermore, what is the rationale for the walkers having a well developed sense of smell? Is this supported by the graphic novels? They're dead reanimated humans. If anything, they should have a worse sense of smell. They didn't suddenly evolve wet rhinariums like a dog.

Everything I've seen in the series leads me to believe that the walkers recognize patterns of behavior of humans. Human noises. Human movement. Human activity. Noise is most often what the survivors are concerned about.

A human who acts like a walker and masks her scent using walkers should be able to blend in.
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Old 02-13-2014, 11:23 PM   #147
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She just dismembered and de-jawed two walkers, tied them to a rope, and hauled them with her. She doesn't have access to a shower. Why would she not smell like walker?
You are missing the obvious. Because she is not a walker. She is alive. And it has been established on this show that walkers can tell the difference. Walkers are not smart. They obviously do not recognize "patterns of behavior".
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Old 02-14-2014, 01:38 AM   #148
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You are missing the obvious. Because she is not a walker. She is alive. And it has been established on this show that walkers can tell the difference. Walkers are not smart. They obviously do not recognize "patterns of behavior".
It was established in the first season that if humans have walker smell all over them, the walkers will ignore them. (Rick et al, trapped in a building in Atlanta and they rubbed walker on themselves to escape?)

Anyway I know you're a nitpicker about that kind of stuff, but it's been well documented that in that universe that is how it works (as well as with the "pets" masking Michonne). Accept it or not, but it's not going to change.
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Old 02-14-2014, 08:38 AM   #149
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It could also be a combination of smell and behavior. Meaning even if they had smeared zombie guts all overthemselves but still acted like a human (say started running or yelling) that the zombies would still be attracted to them even with no human smell.
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Old 02-14-2014, 08:48 AM   #150
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I think the way the ended the mid-season finale with everyone being split up was a great idea, it gives them a bunch of stuff to mine for the rest of the season, and solves one of the biggest complains people have, which is the group staying in one location for too long (the farm, the prison). Now it's a story of people trying to survive in the wild and, hopefully, be reunited eventually.
Yeah, I agree. I suspect we'll see several different story lines going forward. I think it will help keep the show fresh.
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