Torchwood "Immortal Sins" 8/19/2011 [Text View]

john4200

08-20-2011, 03:33 AM

And while Gwen's eyes are being monitored, there are tons of ways of signaling to someone (CIA operatives to boot) that something is amiss.

If Gwen just faced a wall while she talked to anyone, the people monitoring the contacts would not know what anyone was saying. Unless I missed something (I fast-forwarded through most of Gwen's whining).

I was disappointed that Jack did not flatten Gwen once she let him out of the car. His hands were tied behind his back, but he still could have clobbered her.

danterner

08-20-2011, 09:07 AM

Best episode of the season by far, so far.

Loved that The Doctor was directly mentioned, as well as the Trickster's Brigade. And there was an alien! It's finally starting to feel more like the Torchwood/DW universe.

Cool to see Nana Visitor. And next week it looks like (casting spoiler)

John DeLancie has a role, as well.

pkscout

08-20-2011, 09:09 AM

Cainebj

08-20-2011, 09:16 AM

I was disappointed that Jack did not flatten Gwen once she let him out of the car.

I totally disagree - the best thing of that whole scene was when they said to each other don't forget what I said in the car and had a nano-second hug before goin back to the bad guys.

To me this was a character episode arc dating back to the very first show of the first series - I loved it.

pteronaut

08-20-2011, 10:21 AM

The pacing was much better, we are finally getting some forward movement on the main story line, and it was good to focus on the actual main characters. But seriously? I hope this whole thing doesn't end up revolving around a jilted lover.Or Jack's brother. (I cannot remember if he was alive or not after Jack's previous encounter with him.)

robojerk

08-20-2011, 02:33 PM

This episode actually had a feel of Torchwood, but still not sure if this season can repair itself from the first 6/10 episodes.

So how did Jack's companion survive all these years? Trickster's Brigade (http://tardis.wikia.com/wiki/Trickster%27s_Brigade)?

john4200

08-20-2011, 02:38 PM

the best thing of that whole scene was when they said to each other don't forget what I said in the car and had a nano-second hug before goin back to the bad guys.

Bad? I would think a bad guy would not stand around politely waiting for his friend to hand him over to die.

Anubys

08-20-2011, 03:08 PM

So how did Jack's companion survive all these years?

I think you can assume he used some of Jack's hints about the future to make a ton of money. But a 100 years living is not out of the realm of possibility, especially if he used Jack's blood or something to prolong his life (hmmm!).

Cainebj

08-20-2011, 04:06 PM

Bad? I would think a bad guy would not stand around politely waiting for his friend to hand him over to die.

By Bad Guys - I meant the people who kidnapped Gwen's family in the first place.

john4200

08-20-2011, 05:06 PM

By Bad Guys - I meant the people who kidnapped Gwen's family in the first place.

So, Gwen expresses her contempt and low regard for Jack's life to him in the car, and Jack basically responds that he will do anything to preserve his life. Then they get out of the car and Jack politely stands next to Gwen waiting for her to hand him over to (as far as Jack knows) likely torture or death.

How is that a good scene?

robojerk

08-20-2011, 06:03 PM

After Jack was being murdered over and over again, when the three guys did their little handshake/pact deal, looking at their arms from above would result in a view of a triangle.I think you can assume he used some of Jack's hints about the future to make a ton of money. But a 100 years living is not out of the realm of possibility, especially if he used Jack's blood or something to prolong his life (hmmm!).I grant he could be alive naturally(, but whats the fun in that?) It's been 84 years since 1927, and Jack's lover Angelo appeared to be in his 20's.

I'm not sure if I like my own theory here but the 3 bad guys and Angelo (since the theory is he somehow knew some of Jack's secrets) transfused Jack's blood into themselves (with the help of the trickster's brigade?) and now they're immortal, but not in a stay young forever kind of way. All of this Miracle Day nonsense was setup to kill Jack and end their own immortality since they're probably still aging and death eludes them. They believe if they can kill Jack (which would make the trickster's happy) they can finally die themselves.

danterner

08-20-2011, 06:41 PM

After Jack was being murdered over and over again, when the three guys did their little handshake/pact deal, looking at their arms from above would result in a view of a triangle

I noticed that as well. I'm sure it is not a coincidence.

I've been thinking about the triangle. What if it's a reference to the Bermuda Triangle? Isn't Florida one point of the triangle (Bermuda and Puerto Rico being the other two)? And didn't Ponce de Leon supposedly discover Florida while searching for the Fountain of Youth? Fountain of youth = immortality?

balboa dave

08-20-2011, 07:30 PM

Jack's immortality is a quirk of physics (fixed point in time), not due to anything biological. This is just wild speculation on my part, but by extension, I suppose his blood might remain partially affected even when apart from him. That could (loosely) explain the not-dying-but-no-regeneration effects on anyone who received his blood, but not how everyone on earth got it at once. Maybe it got weaponized. If everyone gets infected, then some event triggers the effects across the world simultaneously, then maybe that would diffuse or alter the effects specifically on Jack, maybe act like a drain on him, rendering him mortal. I guess we'll learn soon enough.

TonyD79

08-20-2011, 07:54 PM

ALLRIGHT now that's the TORCHWOOD I love!!!

Took 7 episodes but finally.

At first I was like - seriously?
- - - we're going back to Ellis Island and 1927 but - - -

Gimme an episode featuring Captain Jack and Gwen and minimal of these new American characters and i'm a happy puppy.

Thank you Jane Espenson.

Yes.

I love episodes when Jack dies over and over or when he gets buried or boxed or whatever.

And when he gets to show off his knowledge of past and future history.

Love the conversation between Jack and Gwen. Pure Torchwood. They hate it but love it.

They still write Jack and Gwen well. Starting to write Esther well. Now they need to work on Rex.

Also enjoying the guest stars. Nana!!!!!

And a throw away alien!

Can they reedit the first six shows to about three and start over?

Personally, I don't care what the solution to the riddle is. I just want good storytelling. This finally was good.

To anyone who wants to nitpick things like tactics. Torchwood is a story about people, not details.

cheesesteak

08-21-2011, 05:14 AM

This was the first episode that centered on and featured Jack. About damn time. After all, it's his show.

Thank God that the only Oswald Danes reference was one throw away line. Danes is the worst thing about Torchwood:Miracle Day. The woman who got crushed in the car was a much better villain.

Has there ever been an explanation as to how long Jack remains dead? It seems to vary depending upon the plot's needs. He couldn't have been dead for much longer than a minute when he fell off the roof. Also, he was shot in the head. Where'd the bullet go? And while I'm at it, he should have been ripped to shreds during the torture scene. How fast does his body heal?

Rob Helmerichs

08-21-2011, 06:17 AM

Also, he was shot in the head. Where'd the bullet go?
Well, there was a spray of blood behind him, so I assume it's buried in the wall...

cheesesteak

08-21-2011, 07:19 AM

It was interesting that the ignorant townspeople went straight to the "He's the Devil!" side of things. Why not think he's an angel? Just because Jack's supernatural doesn't automatically mean he's eeeevil. These same people probably would have worshipped him if his face kind of looked like some burnt markings on a grilled cheese sandwich.

Rob Helmerichs

08-21-2011, 07:38 AM

Must be that devilish grin.

dianebrat

08-21-2011, 08:17 AM

This episode actually had a feel of Torchwood, but still not sure if this season can repair itself from the first 6/10 episodes
Agreed, this for the first time FELT like Torchwood, I don't think it will save my opinion of the series, but at least I really enjoyed it vs. just "taking one for the team"

cheesesteak

08-21-2011, 01:32 PM

This was the first time I wanted to slap Gwen. I know the bad guys kidnapped her family but in her Torchwood universe, Jack always saves the day. You don't just turn him over to the baddies without planning something sneaky to foil the evil guys' evil plans. I'm with Rex with regards to Torchwood acting like amateurs.

DavidTigerFan

08-21-2011, 02:40 PM

I know i miss stuff be cause i dont watch dr who, but how does Jack know about the future? No spoilers from dr who if you can....i plan to watch soon.

dianebrat

08-21-2011, 03:09 PM

I know i miss stuff be cause i dont watch dr who, but how does Jack know about the future? No spoilers from dr who if you can....i plan to watch soon.

Just being safe, but I don't view either as a spoiler
He's from the 51st century (no spoiler there) and he was one of the Doctor's companions for a while.

scandia101

08-21-2011, 03:40 PM

I know i miss stuff be cause i dont watch dr who, but how does Jack know about the future? No spoilers from dr who if you can....i plan to watch soon.

His wristband, among other things, has a vortex manipulator, which is a cheap and dirty way to travel through time and space - when it's not damaged. He has this wristband because at one time he was a time agent.

DavidTigerFan

08-21-2011, 04:03 PM

Does jack get introduced in the new dr who ie the 2000s or the old?

IndyJones1023

08-21-2011, 04:12 PM

Finally a real Torchwood episode!

I'm hazarding a guess that...

...all these years Angelo has been working on a way to "cure" Jack from his immortality and this is his gift to Jack.

And this sure is turning into a gay soap opera. I thought Jack was supposed to be omnisexual.

Rob Helmerichs

08-21-2011, 04:18 PM

Does jack get introduced in the new dr who ie the 2000s or the old?
The new.

robojerk

08-21-2011, 08:31 PM

And this sure is turning into a gay soap opera. I thought Jack was supposed to be omnisexual.

I'm inclined to agree Jack is no longer an omnisexual. Both RTD and Barrowman are openly gay so I'm assuming they have changed the character for themselves. I see nothing wrong with it, however I could imagine the target audience for this show probably has no interest in seeing that much man flesh on man flesh, and would prefer some of the female variety. I think it's time for Esther to take her top off to balance things out.

LoadStar

08-21-2011, 08:43 PM

I'm inclined to agree Jack is no longer an omnisexual. Both RTD and Barrowman are openly gay so I'm assuming they have changed the character for themselves.

I have two theories about this. My first theory is that they decided to simplify the character a bit, because the whole omnisexual thing was one of those fun and light things about the character (you know, "haha, he's flirting with anything that moves"). However, "fun" and "light" is anathema to this series, so it doesn't really fit anymore.

The other theory is that it was unintentional, but it just sort of happened because as you mentioned, RTD and Barrowman are both gay, and having the character more "gay" than "omnisexual" just felt more genuine/familiar to them.

I briefly thought that it might have been an intentional decision, as some sort of agenda... but I discounted that a bit, because if that were true, they'd have done something more with that aspect to the character besides for just being gay.

Rob Helmerichs

08-21-2011, 08:48 PM

I'm inclined to agree Jack is no longer an omnisexual. Both RTD and Barrowman are openly gay so I'm assuming they have changed the character for themselves.
Although bear in mind that they're the ones who created the character in the first place.

And he has talked about being interested in women this season. I suspect he's not done with the sexual conquests, and that they won't all be men (otherwise, why bring attention to the fact that he's also into women?).

TonyD79

08-21-2011, 10:00 PM

Although bear in mind that they're the ones who created the character in the first place.

And he has talked about being interested in women this season. I suspect he's not done with the sexual conquests, and that they won't all be men (otherwise, why bring attention to the fact that he's also into women?).

And aliens. And slugs. And....

kaszeta

08-21-2011, 10:40 PM

Well, it's improving, but that was still one heck of an obvious resolution, IMHO.

And I wasn't expecting to see Major Kira.

IndyJones1023

08-21-2011, 10:41 PM

And I wasn't expecting to see Major Kira.

I was. I hate when they spoil things by putting names in the credits at the start.

kaszeta

08-21-2011, 10:49 PM

I was. I hate when they spoil things by putting names in the credits at the start.

Somehow I missed that this week. I usually watch that (indeed, I said "Newman!" back in Week 1)

busyba

08-21-2011, 11:26 PM

This was the first time I wanted to slap Gwen. I know the bad guys kidnapped her family but in her Torchwood universe, Jack always saves the day.

Ask Jack's daughter what she thinks about what you just said. ;)

busyba

08-21-2011, 11:27 PM

Anybody else amused by the idea of a guy wearing a vintage WW2 Air Force overcoat in 1927? :D

robojerk

08-21-2011, 11:37 PM

Anybody else amused by the idea of a guy wearing a vintage WW2 Air Force overcoat in 1927? :D

He's fashion forward?

kaszeta

08-21-2011, 11:40 PM

Anybody else amused by the idea of a guy wearing a vintage WW2 Air Force overcoat in 1927? :D

A little bit, but that's not a WW2 overcoat. That's actually the third coat we've seen him in. This one is a lot lighter, and now Navy blue.

I wouldn't mind having his tailor. His makeup team needs to locked in the pandorica, however.

Peter000

08-22-2011, 02:42 AM

Where the hell was the alien? I totally missed it.

danterner

08-22-2011, 04:32 AM

Where the hell was the alien? I totally missed it.

Inside the locked box they were supposed to transport but not look into.

cheesesteak

08-22-2011, 06:54 AM

I believe Jack is hoping his next female conquest will be Gwen Cooper.

I know it's his trademark but I think Jack's overcoat is a bit silly.

Vendikarr

08-22-2011, 08:22 AM

I believe Jack is hoping his next female conquest will be Gwen Cooper.

Somehow I think if Rhys gets killed, Gwen would be on Jack like butter on toast.

cheesesteak

08-22-2011, 08:38 AM

It should be funny to hear Rex's comments if everything that's been happening is because of one of Jack's gay lovers.

Peter000

08-22-2011, 08:51 AM

Inside the locked box they were supposed to transport but not look into.
Oh, duh. Din't register as "alien" in my mind, but "creature."

tiassa

08-22-2011, 10:07 AM

A couple of points:
The locals jumped to the "He's the Devil" conclusion because he was "corrupting" Angelo.
During one of the "They keep killing Jack" sequences, the landlady took a small container of his blood, also remember that at some point someone said to Jack "What did you give them, all those years ago?"
How do we know that the US armed forces didn't get the idea for long overcoats from Jack?

danterner

08-22-2011, 10:22 AM

I'm thinking that the vial of blood is significant, too. Since all of Jack is special, it stands to reason his blood is special too. I also seem to recall mention being made in other related series (both Doctor Who and Sarah Jane Adventures) that careful steps must be taken when a timelord dies, lest people with bad intentions get ahold of the body and use it in evil ways:

In the Sarah Jane Adventures, it was mentioned in the first episode of the two-parter that featured Matt Smith (called "The Death of the Doctor"). In Doctor Who, was there maybe a comment along those lines in the first episode of the current season? Less sure about that.

Anyhow, Jack is no Timelord. However, his fixed-point-in-timedness may mean that similar proscriptions apply. He's special.

The way I understand the episode, the Butcher and neighborhood kept killing Jack over and over. At first it was just to witness the miracle of his undying, but at some point it turned to collecting his blood. At some point after that, the three gentlemen learned of the situation and his blood and decided to purchase Jack for themselves to further their own ends (whatever they may be).

ETA: Anyone here been playing the "Torchwood: Web of Lies (http://itunes.apple.com/us/app/torchwood-web-of-lies/id444833037?mt=8)" iOS app that's a companion to this season? It's an episodic motion comic with accompanying mini-games. Eve Myles and John Barrowman and Eliza Dushku do the voice acting, and the script is written by Jane Espensen with Russell T. Davies exec producing. It's nothing great, but each episode is short enough to be mildly entertaining. The app and first episode are free, with subsequent episodes (one released each week, alongside the television episode) as in-app purchases. The total for all 10 is $2.99. It's nothing great, but for $2.99 I feel like I'm getting my money's worth.

busyba

08-22-2011, 10:22 AM

How do we know that the US armed forces didn't get the idea for long overcoats from Jack?

Jack also gave them transparent aluminum. :)

btw... isn't it weird that Major Kira could just say Angelo's name and Jack would immediately remember who he was? I mean, sure, it's only been 80+ years in Angelo's timeline, but remember that from Jack's perspective those flashbacks took place 2000 years ago.

busyba

08-22-2011, 10:25 AM

speaking of those three guys... they're standing there discussing entering into a partnership to purchase a sentient being. The first two come to an agreement and ask the third guy, the black guy, if he's in. There's a pregnant pause before he says yes.

I have to imagine that during that pause, the black guy must have been contemplating the irony.

kaszeta

08-22-2011, 10:58 AM

btw... isn't it weird that Major Kira could just say Angelo's name and Jack would immediately remember who he was? I mean, sure, it's only been 80+ years in Angelo's timeline, but remember that from Jack's perspective those flashbacks took place 2000 years ago.

Do we know enough about his timeline to know exactly where in his own timeline that occurred? I think all we know for sure is that it happened after he met The Doctor.

busyba

08-22-2011, 11:06 AM

Do we know enough about his timeline to know exactly where in his own timeline that occurred? I think all we know for sure is that it happened after he met The Doctor.

We know the 1927 flashbacks were during his early Torchwood days, since he was on a TW mission, so that puts him not too long, maybe 50 years, after he met the Doctor.

His timeline tracked pretty much linearly with Earth's timeline after that, up until Torchwood Season 2. At which point he got sent back to 27AD. The Jack we see today is about 2000 years older than the Jack in the 1927 flashbacks.

TAsunder

08-22-2011, 02:09 PM

robojerk

08-22-2011, 02:20 PM

People actually thought this was a good episode? I thought it was worse in many regards. About 2/3 of the episode was uninteresting time period soap opera stuff. I can only hope it becomes important enough to warrant the amount of time they spent on it.

I'll stand by my "this felt like an actual Torchwood episode"

As to whether I liked it or not I can't say. My/our expectations could just be a lot lower, or it could be the high of seeing actual sci-fi stuff from the Doctor Who universe.

TAsunder

08-22-2011, 02:51 PM

I'll stand by my "this felt like an actual Torchwood episode"

As to whether I liked it or not I can't say. My/our expectations could just be a lot lower, or it could be the high of seeing actual sci-fi stuff from the Doctor Who universe.

Good clarification; That makes sense to me. I enjoyed seeing the Doctor Who reference as well and the scenes surrounding it.

pteronaut

08-22-2011, 03:42 PM

We know the 1927 flashbacks were during his early Torchwood days, since he was on a TW mission, so that puts him not too long, maybe 50 years, after he met the Doctor.

His timeline tracked pretty much linearly with Earth's timeline after that, up until Torchwood Season 2. At which point he got sent back to 27AD. The Jack we see today is about 2000 years older than the Jack in the 1927 flashbacks.I believe that Jack's escapades before WWII happened after Jack was killed by the Daleks, and resurrected by Rose/ Bad Wolf, as in DW: Utopia, Jack told The Doctor that he had used his Vortex manipulator to return to 1869, and then waited for The Doctor to return.

busyba

08-22-2011, 07:33 PM

I believe that Jack's escapades before WWII happened after Jack was killed by the Daleks, and resurrected by Rose/ Bad Wolf, as in DW: Utopia, Jack told The Doctor that he had used his Vortex manipulator to return to 1869, and then waited for The Doctor to return.

Exactly right.

wprager

08-22-2011, 08:24 PM

Finally a real Torchwood episode!

I'm hazarding a guess that...

And this sure is turning into a gay soap opera. I thought Jack was supposed to be omnisexual.

I keep hearing that term, but I have yet to see it in practice. I've seen S1 and S3 and all but the last 3 episodes of S2. Still haven't seen the "omni" part.

wprager

08-22-2011, 08:25 PM

I'm inclined to agree Jack is no longer an omnisexual. Both RTD and Barrowman are openly gay so I'm assuming they have changed the character for themselves. I see nothing wrong with it, however I could imagine the target audience for this show probably has no interest in seeing that much man flesh on man flesh, and would prefer some of the female variety. I think it's time for Esther to take her top off to balance things out.

As intriguing as that is, I would actually prefer my SciFi to be not so graphic. Loved BSG (especially the first two seasons), but sometimes I wish it was a bit less raunchy, as I still haven't re-watched it with my boys (13 and 15).

Unbeliever

08-22-2011, 08:35 PM

I keep hearing that term, but I have yet to see it in practice. I've seen S1 and S3 and all but the last 3 episodes of S2. Still haven't seen the "omni" part.

He was more omni in Doctor Who, less so in Torchwood.

In Doctor Who, he was flirting with anything that had a pulse, even a couple of robots that didn't.

--Carlos V.

busyba

08-22-2011, 11:42 PM

He even fondled the boobs of one of the robots.

Gerryex

08-23-2011, 07:56 AM

People actually thought this was a good episode? I thought it was worse in many regards. About 2/3 of the episode was uninteresting time period soap opera stuff. I can only hope it becomes important enough to warrant the amount of time they spent on it.

I think you and I are in a minority but I agree with you that I thought this was the worst episode yet! I can see why they had to set up the history of the other guy with Jack, but I think they spent WAY too much time on that part of the story. I'm much more interested in what is happening in the present.

I was almost ready to stop watching several times but stuck with it anyway!!

Gerry

BrettStah

08-23-2011, 02:32 PM

Yeah, parts were good, but there were other parts that were unneeded. I felt like this dog at times:

http://i.imgur.com/FFkNV.jpg

TonyD79

08-23-2011, 02:45 PM

I think you and I are in a minority but I agree with you that I thought this was the worst episode yet! I can see why they had to set up the history of the other guy with Jack, but I think they spent WAY too much time on that part of the story. I'm much more interested in what is happening in the present.

I was almost ready to stop watching several times but stuck with it anyway!!

Gerry

Hmm. You are watching a show that has as a huge part of it a time traveling immortal and you want to stay only in the present. Were you a Torchwood fan prior? Doctor Who?

robojerk

08-23-2011, 02:51 PM

Flashbacks != Timetravel

I'm surprised no one has said anything about Angelo calling Jack a devil? hmmmmm

busyba

08-23-2011, 03:57 PM

Flashbacks != Timetravel

Flashbacks with a guy who has future technology and knows about the future, does fall under time travel. Plus it's de rigeur in shows involving immortals.

Gerryex

08-23-2011, 05:33 PM

Hmm. You are watching a show that has as a huge part of it a time traveling immortal and you want to stay only in the present. Were you a Torchwood fan prior? Doctor Who?

You are absolutely right as I usually enjoy the time traveling aspect of any show, especially in Dr Who and its derivatives, like Torchwood. What I really meant to say was that they spent too much of the episode on this particular aspect of Jack's past and I was quite bored with it!

Gerry

P. S. I've been watching Dr Who ALL THE WAY BACK to the Patrick Troughton (second Dr) episodes and I think I've seen almost every single episode from then on to the latest Drs. I even saw many of the first Dr episodes (William Hartnell) but not all of them. So, yes I am a Sci Fi fan including time travel. Its just that this episode, in my opinion, stunk!!!