Tivo is disappointing!

[chelman]

I had my tivo primere for about a week now an I'm very disappointed with its "features." The most attacting feature to me was You Tube: The search in tivo is very limited, since the keyboard is limited, you won't get the same search as in your PC. Netflix only shows only your qeue, you can't search for movies. And some other disappointments are not worthy to list here.

It seems live Tivo is more concerned with their legal department that with R&D and marketing. Tivo will be remembered as the little company that could but didn't want to and f*%$ up.

Tivo R&D engineers: You are wasting a great opportunity, getting into mediocrity, and killing your jobs! Amaze us with your imagination and creativity. Perhaps you need some help from the hacker community to get wild and creative, forget about the steady paycheck! Don't limit us to your incapability and lack of imagination, surprise us!

[nrc]

I had my tivo primere for about a week now an I'm very disappointed with its "features." The most attacting feature to me was You Tube: The search in tivo is very limited, since the keyboard is limited, you won't get the same search as in your PC. Netflix only shows only your qeue, you can't search for movies. And some other disappointments are not worthy to list here.

Use TiVo Search to see the entire Netflix library.

[lessd]

I had my tivo primere for about a week now an I'm very disappointed with its "features." The most attacting feature to me was You Tube: The search in tivo is very limited, since the keyboard is limited, you won't get the same search as in your PC. Netflix only shows only your qeue, you can't search for movies. And some other disappointments are not worthy to list here.

It seems live Tivo is more concerned with their legal department that with R&D and marketing. Tivo will be remembered as the little company that could but didn't want to anf f*%$ up.

Tivo R&D engineers: You are wasting a great opportunity, getting into mediocrity, and killing your jobs! Amaze us with your imagination and creativity. Perhaps you need some help from the hacker community to get wild and creative, forget about the steady paycheck! Don't limit us to your incapability and lack of imagination, surprise us!

If you purchased this TiVo for You Tube use you made an error, the TiVo is a DVR with extras, You Tube, Netflix, etc. are all extras that make this DVR more valuable to some users but I think if your main use is not the DVR function, the other extras you want can be done on other hardware that may have a better interface for the other functions. TiVo was designed as a DVR and I know of no better alternative to this DVR for the DVR functions and the ability to put in a 2Tb drive and have fast MRV between your TiVos (TPs). If for example I just wanted Netflix I would purchase the Apple TV, that does a great job with Netflix, You Tube is best used on a PC, TiVo is not the best answer for all the extra stuff it can now do, but if you want a single box that is a good DVR you have no good alternative. TiVo now does Hulu +, Pandora, Netflix, You Tube, the weather, pictures from you computer, and the list goes on.

[aridon]

Youtube isn't even on my radar as being important. Netflix on Tivo works pretty well for me and searching on the tivo bringing up netflix results in addition to live tv or amazon is pretty nice. For more in depth searching for just netflix i'll use my pc or android phone while updating my dvd queue.

Now the HD UI is an abortion. Sure its useable and barely tolerable most of the time but still a wreck of a mess. Especially how it switches in and out of old / new mode and doesn't cache anything. What idiot thought that up?

[atmuscarella]

If you purchased this TiVo for You Tube use you made an error, the TiVo is a DVR with extras, You Tube, Netflix, etc. are all extras that make this DVR more valuable to some users but I think if your main use is not the DVR function, the other extras you want can be done on other hardware that may have a better interface for the other functions. TiVo was designed as a DVR and I know of no better alternative to this DVR for the DVR functions and the ability to put in a 2Tb drive and have fast MRV between your TiVos (TPs). If for example I just wanted Netflix I would purchase the Apple TV, that does a great job with Netflix, You Tube is best used on a PC, TiVo is not the best answer for all the extra stuff it can now do, but if you want a single box that is a good DVR you have no good alternative. TiVo now does Hulu +, Pandora, Netflix, You Tube, the weather, pictures from you computer, and the list goes on.Unfortunately this is a great post. It sums up the current situation all too well.

[MrJedi]

I agree with most of the folks here. I bought my Premier for its DVR capabilities. It is better than any Time Warner or Surewest box I have used. Having the ability to use it for Pandora, Netflix, and YouTube was a nice bonus, but I have other devices that could already access those services. During the Fall/Spring period I had 5 shows I wanted to watch at 7pm on Mondays. TiVo was smart enough to record two of the shows are at a later rebroadcast time. Which left me with one show I had to download to watch it (which was available via Amazon Video). Find me a cable DVR that manages your recordings in that way automatically. The Scientific Atlanta DVRs require you to find those additional recordings, and set it to record in that time slot only. However, if that second time slot you manually picked ever changes the SA DVR won't record it. TiVo will see the change and record accordingly.

While I realize it is not typically the case now, when I bought my TiVo it was cheaper monthly than a cable DVR. Where I live an HD DVR cost me $17 a month. Had I done a TiVo monthly fee instead of lifetime I would pay only. $15.50 (12.99 + $2.50 CableCard) a month. So for a $1.50 less a month on a $59 Woot Refurb I get a more reliable DVR, plus it has some extra goodies (admittedly most are half-baked). The inability to search Netflix within the app didn't bother me as the other Netflix ready device I have didn't allow it either so I was used to that. Granted, you can work around this by using TiVo's search but I have found it returns false positives (returns results for movies that are DVD/Blu-Ray only).

My point is that if your focus was on how well a device does streaming media you should have purchased a Roku, AppleTV, or GoogleTV. If your focus was a DVR that can support a CableCard and has more features than any other CableCard DVR you made the right choice. :)

[Series3Sub]

Unfortunately this is a great post. It sums up the current situation all too well.

But the OP is an example of how times are changing and that the new generation, not the Luddites on this forum who comprise a tiny elite, is exactly why I suggested in a thread that TiVO, already having the DVR bit down pretty well, needs to design and market TiVo as primarily a media streamer and DVR an extra with its flexibility of an HDD. I still think it is NOT to late for TiVo to change course just a bit. However, if they continue to view the OTT media streaming (saved on the HDD is an incredibly convenient thing) as secondary, and only concerned with MSO's, then TiVo is truly doomed. There are lots of folks who won't consider TiVo because of how it is marketed as a DVR first and foremost. The DVR should be marketed as a secondary, but key feature in "cutting the cable" (but TiVo is too cozy with some cable cos. to do this, I guess), recording all the OTA "Free" TV along with the primary tool of TiVo the Media Streamer, and the monthly subscription could marketed as ones guarantee of reliable Name Based Recording of all your OTA shows.

The problem is, people today are no longer seeking the DVR as they once did and are now lured by the media streamer (Netflix and Hulu are often cited as what they want with all its advantages) and cutting out the necessity of a DVR that is usually tied to an MPVD service. TiVo could join this niche with its supreme marketing that has always seemed TiVo's greatest strength, even more than the product itself. But heaven forbid if TiVo does something that is not in line with the cable cos., who they mistakenly see as their savior.

Time seems to be passing TiVo by. Although if TiVo had just added at least the ability to record just one more channel (for a total of 3), it would have gone a long way to making the Premiere seem worth the upgrade.

[tenthplanet]

But the OP is an example of how times are changing and that the new generation, not the Luddites on this forum who comprise a tiny elite, is exactly why I suggested in a thread that TiVO, already having the DVR bit down pretty well, needs to design and market TiVo as primarily a media streamer and DVR an extra with its flexibility of an HDD. I still think it is NOT to late for TiVo to change course just a bit. However, if they continue to view the OTT media streaming (saved on the HDD is an incredibly convenient thing) as secondary, and only concerned with MSO's, then TiVo is truly doomed. There are lots of folks who won't consider TiVo because of how it is marketed as a DVR first and foremost. The DVR should be marketed as a secondary, but key feature in "cutting the cable" (but TiVo is too cozy with some cable cos. to do this, I guess), recording all the OTA "Free" TV along with the primary tool of TiVo the Media Streamer, and the monthly subscription could marketed as ones guarantee of reliable Name Based Recording of all your OTA shows.



The problem is, people today are no longer seeking the DVR as they once did and are now lured by the media streamer (Netflix and Hulu are often cited as what they want with all its advantages) and cutting out the necessity of a DVR that is usually tied to an MPVD service. TiVo could join this niche with its supreme marketing that has always seemed TiVo's greatest strength, even more than the product itself. But heaven forbid if TiVo does something that is not in line with the cable cos., who they mistakenly see as their savior.

Time seems to be passing TiVo by. Although if TiVo had just added at least the ability to record just one more channel (for a total of 3), it would have gone a long way to making the Premiere seem worth the upgrade.


There is a big shakeout coming in streaming devices, data caps are not going away, cable is not going away. Tivo can record and that is strength people don't buy Tivo's because cable co's dvr get the job done well enough ( the same excuse as in the last 5yrs or so). Tivo will survive most of the so called competition won't. And some of the so called Luddites on this forum are way tech savy when it comes to hardware, a lot of the so called new generation can't build and can't program and when you can't do either that is the equivilant of being a 21st century Luddite.

[jtreid]

data caps are not going away, cable is not going away
And that is the crux of the matter. For most of us, one company controls the method of delivery for television and broadband. They will not go away because they control the spigot into our homes. One way or another, they will make a profit and we will suffer.

You over-the-air people need not respond. I did say most of us; not all.

[L David Matheny]

And that is the crux of the matter. For most of us, one company controls the method of delivery for television and broadband. They will not go away because they control the spigot into our homes. One way or another, they will make a profit and we will suffer.

You over-the-air people need not respond. I did say most of us; not all.

Even OTA-only TV viewers (like me) have to get our broadband from somebody. I have DSL, but I know many use cable. I think it will be a while before wireless broadband is really ready for primetime. Sprint may have plans with no regulated caps, but I doubt that their infrastructure is physically capable of handling millions of people each using tens or hundreds of gigabytes per month.

As an aside, I find it interesting that in an era when everybody seems to want to go wireless (cell phones especially), I keep hearing noises about Congress eventually taking away broadcast TV to give (sell) the spectrum to this or that special interest. Broadcast TV has been efficiently wireless for decades, and today it's better than ever. I suppose it could be replaced by satellite broadcast services that offer basic service free or at nominal cost and with public-interest requirements similar to those of terrestrial broadcasters; but I can't imagine how anyone (except the vested interests) would want to see TV delivery become the exclusive province of cable companies saddled with the inherent inefficiencies of continually fussing with all that obsolete infrastructure. Cable companies are so 20th century.

[crxssi]

Use TiVo Search to see the entire Netflix library.

But only in HDUI. It doesn't work in SDUI. That is a huge limitation right there for many of us.

[Series3Sub]

There is a big shakeout coming in streaming devices, data caps are not going away, cable is not going away. Tivo can record and that is strength people don't buy Tivo's because cable co's dvr get the job done well enough ( the same excuse as in the last 5yrs or so). Tivo will survive most of the so called competition won't. And some of the so called Luddites on this forum are way tech savy when it comes to hardware, a lot of the so called new generation can't build and can't program and when you can't do either that is the equivilant of being a 21st century Luddite.

Your contribution is appreciated. I would suggest, however, that you post affirms my point: the "Luddites" :) on this forum (I admit to being a bit one, myself :)) have not been able to prevent the massive hemorrhage of subscribers TiVo keeps losing. While adknowleding the bugs of the Premier having soured a fair number of TiVo die-hard lovers into leaving TiVo, I still think the problem is that TiVo is marketing something that is anachronistic to the growing numbers who are buying streaming boxes TODAY. And ones' technical skill or prowess has nothing to do with the money they spend on what product. Marketing and product design determain that, and, like it or not, it is those non-tech savy who TiVo desperately needs (heck, all industries need to reach) to reach to start a net INCREASE of subscribers instead of its current nose-dive. Gee, I thought that TiVo was designed for the NON-tech savy masses, no? The ease of its use and display and functions and menus. The big selling point was that it was EASY to use and and didn't require "tech-savy" folks to operate and enjoy. This is what users and even the "tech-savy" used to trumpet about TiVo.

So, your statement that TiVo appeals to the "tech-savy" (inferring that it does almost exclusively) just affirms that TiVo is no longer appealing to the mass market and to only the few who like to hack the units. That is a sure way to go out of business, or, at least, lose lots of subscribers, which TiVo has already suffered.

I would just make the point that if TiVo marketed as a media streamer first (and focus on that as #1 ad far as R&D and access to more internet pods, etc. because they already have the DVR functionality down quite well), they could appeal to the consumers who can turn things around for the better at TiVo. The current roster of "tech-savy" subscribers is putting TiVo close to out of business, hence the attention to the MSO's and just suing anyone who won't talk to them about adding a TiVo service to their MVPD service.

[smbaker]

I would just make the point that if TiVo marketed as a media streamer first (and focus on that as #1 ad far as R&D and access to more internet pods, etc. because they already have the DVR functionality down quite well),

The problem is, Tivo has positioned itself as a Jack of all Trades, but Master of None. The netflix implementation isn't very good. The amazon implementation is so-so (no amazon prime streaming?). Hulu+ took forever to bring to market. Youtube occasionally crashes my box. Competition is creeping up on the DVR functionality, with others beating Tivo to streaming and whole-home positioning. The HDUI for the DVR itself remains incomplete.

If I wanted a streaming device, then there are a number of devices I'd choose before the Tivo. One of them is my TV itself which has most of these streaming services built into it. My blu-ray player and PS3 are also better streaming devices than my Tivo, and neither of them takes an eternity to boot if something goes wrong.

[atmuscarella]

The reality is if someone doesn't want a DVR there is no reason to buy a TiVo.

People can blah blah all they want about costs, as long as a TiVo is a DVR it has to cost significantly more than a streaming media device. So even if Tivo was as good as a Ruko at streaming media you still wouldn't buy a TiVo unless you wanted a DVR.

The streaming media features TiVo has added are to help it still be competitive in the cable DVR market. Due to cable cards TiVo has become more costly and more complicated for the end user. At the same time that cable company DVRs have continued to improve and sometimes are used as loss leaders.

Thanks,

[dahacker]

Tivo is still the best DVR device, but only by a slim margin. Netflix is the only reasonably useful extra service on the device. Hulu+ seriously?

I'm not sure I really understand how Tivo can lose 2.4 million subscribers over 5 years and still think they can maintain price points well over Cable Service Provider DVRs while performing near ZERO innovation since the Series 3 was introduced. Not to mention the recent price increases for current owners.

Tivo is losing on cost PERIOD. Yes lifetime service can be more cost effective, but people can't deal with break even cost periods of 3-5 years.

[atmuscarella]

Tivo is losing on cost PERIOD. Yes lifetime service can be more cost effective, but people can't deal with break even cost periods of 3-5 years.Break even at the current prices is 27 months for those eligible for MSD and 25 months for those paying full price. That is not 3-5 years.

I don't find a Premiere with lifetime at less than $500 with MSD or less than $600 without to be out of line. Tivo has been and continues to lose money selling stand alone DVRs lowering their prices isn't going to fix that.

There are lots of reasons for TiVos problems, many that were/are out of their control and many they have caused themselves. I would put their pricing at the lower end of their issues.

Thanks,

[larrs]

...Not to mention the recent price increases for current owners.

Tivo is losing on cost PERIOD. Yes lifetime service can be more cost effective, but people can't deal with break even cost periods of 3-5 years.

There was no cost increase to current owners to my knowledge. My bills were the same this month as last month and others have said even their annual plans renewed at the current rate.

I don't get the losing on cost statement. My cableco DVR is $17 a month, for each DVR (I once had two), a total of $34. Tivo is now $20 for one plus $15 for the second= $35. Yes, the cable cards are extra ($1.99 each), but that is not enough to proclaim they are losing on cost- not for what you get for the $75-99 upfront plus $4-5 more per month.

[dahacker]

Break even at the current prices is 27 months for those eligible for MSD and 25 months for those paying full price. That is not 3-5 years.

I don't find a Premiere with lifetime at less than $500 with MSD or less than $600 without to be out of line. Tivo has been and continues to lose money selling stand alone DVRs lowering their prices isn't going to fix that.

There are lots of reasons for TiVos problems, many that were/are out of their control and many they have caused themselves. I would put their pricing at the lower end of their issues.

Thanks,

Sorry its all about money and cost and your example break even months are Tivo vs Tivo. Certainly if you want a Tivo, you should get lifetime. But the decision that everyday people (not us Tivo evangelists) are making is Cable service DVR vs Tivo DVR life costs.

Example:
Verizon FIOS DVR: $15.99/month
Tivo Premier: $99.99 + $19.99/month + $3.99/month cable card
Result: Tivo loses on cost

Lifetime Verizon DVR vs Tivo Premier Example:
X = months
15.99 * X = 99.99 + 499.99 + (3.99 * X)
X = 50
Break even is 50 months for Tivo over Verizon FIOS. i.e. over 4 years. When I explain that Tivo is cheaper after 50 months, most people rightly go and just get the Cable service DVR despite Tivo's slim superiority.

Again. Its all about cost. Just ask anyone you know who has a non Tivo DVR. The market decides period.

[dahacker]

There was no cost increase to current owners to my knowledge. My bills were the same this month as last month and others have said even their annual plans renewed at the current rate.

I don't get the losing on cost statement. My cableco DVR is $17 a month, for each DVR (I once had two), a total of $34. Tivo is now $20 for one plus $15 for the second= $35. Yes, the cable cards are extra ($1.99 each), but that is not enough to proclaim they are losing on cost- not for what you get for the $75-99 upfront plus $4-5 more per month.

Lifetime on new machines was discounted to $200 for prior owners for a long time. Now its $400. I can't recall the delta on initial hardware cost if any.

From an email:

"New pricing begins May 19th

DVR pricing: $99.99 TiVo Premiere OR $299.99 TiVo Premiere XL DVR with purchase of a TiVo service plan
Service plans*: $19.99/mo. with 1-yr commitment OR $499.99 Product Lifetime service"

See my example above for why cost delta IS an issue to MOST people.

[atmuscarella]

Sorry its all about money and cost and your example break even months are Tivo vs Tivo. Certainly if you want a Tivo, you should get lifetime. But the decision that everyday people (not us Tivo evangelists) are making is Cable service DVR vs Tivo DVR life costs.

Example:
Verizon FIOS DVR: $15.99/month
Tivo Premier: $99.99 + $19.99/month + $3.99/month cable card
Result: Tivo loses on cost

Lifetime Verizon DVR vs Tivo Premier Example:
X = months
15.99 * X = 99.99 + 499.99 + (3.99 * X)
X = 50
Break even is 50 months for Tivo over Verizon FIOS. i.e. over 4 years. When I explain that Tivo is cheaper after 50 months, most people rightly go and just get the Cable service DVR despite Tivo's slim superiority.

Again. Its all about cost. Just ask anyone you know who has a non Tivo DVR. The market decides period.There are 100 million plus homes with TVs most of them with more than one. There are significant problems beyond the current cost of a TiVo that are resulting in TiVos lack of sales.

Not everyone buys a Chevy or Toyota plenty of people buy Cadillac, BMW, Mercedes, or Lexus cars instead and they are not cheaper. The same is true for electronic equipment, premium equipment should be salable at a premium price (and generally is).

TiVo is being marketed as a superior/premium product (if it is not a superior/premium DVR there is no reason for it) and should be able to be sold as such. The fact that they have not been successful is a directed result of all the other issues. Higher prices does not prevent sales just ask Apple.

Thanks,

[atmuscarella]

Lifetime on new machines was discounted to $200 for prior owners for a long time. Now its $400. I can't recall the delta on initial hardware cost if any.

From an email:

"New pricing begins May 19th

DVR pricing: $99.99 TiVo Premiere OR $299.99 TiVo Premiere XL DVR with purchase of a TiVo service plan
Service plans*: $19.99/mo. with 1-yr commitment OR $499.99 Product Lifetime service"

See my example above for why cost delta IS an issue to MOST people.The price of a Premiere with lifetime for existing customers (that qualify for MSD) has been $470 to $500 since the Premiere was released pretty much the same as it is now only you also get 6 months of Hulu+ now, which you didn't get in the past. So technically if you buy a Premiere through Amazon (under $80) now and put lifetime on it with a MSD ($399) and value Hulu+ at it's cost (-$47) a Premiere with lifetime is now at it's cheapest point since release. Even without Hulu+ it is within $10 of it's cheapest point.

If you would like to see all the differant price points the Premiere has been at since release you can check out this thread:

http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?t=469929

Thanks,

Thanks,

[aridon]

Coupon code plsr still works for $100 off life time.

[dahacker]

There are 100 million plus homes with TVs most of them with more than one. There are significant problems beyond the current cost of a TiVo that are resulting in TiVos lack of sales.

Not everyone buys a Chevy or Toyota plenty of people buy Cadillac, BMW, Mercedes, or Lexus cars instead and they are not cheaper. The same is true for electronic equipment, premium equipment should be salable at a premium price (and generally is).

TiVo is being marketed as a superior/premium product (if it is not a superior/premium DVR there is no reason for it) and should be able to be sold as such. The fact that they have not been successful is a directed result of all the other issues. Higher prices does not prevent sales just ask Apple.

Thanks,

This is your opinion. My opinion based on well educated and high end consumer friends is that their sole decision factor is COST for DVRs.

If Tivo had Apple margins on products, then I would agree they should keep the price point. Reality is that Tivo is losing money on their DVRs and need to make and maintain market share or they will die.

A better analogy can be found in TVs. Remember Pioneer Kuro? They were the best TVs period, but everyone was picking TVs based on COST. So I think they should take their new found Dish money and match the cable company prices and market as such. Otherwise they will go the way of the Kuro.

No. Thank You.

[crxssi]

Tivo is still the best DVR device, but only by a slim margin.

That completely depends on how you define "best". If you define it by initial cost, ongoing cost, reliability, speed of activation, hassle of getting working, replacement convenience when something goes wrong, etc, it is likely not the "best". And as I said before, if your competition (most cable DVR boxes) is a "D" and you are a "C", that isn't helping much when the competition is improving speed, capacity, and features, while your product hasn't improved much at all.

TiVo is, indeed, walking on the dangerous side of being pretty apathetic.

[Series3Sub]

The problem is, Tivo has positioned itself as a Jack of all Trades, but Master of None. The netflix implementation isn't very good. The amazon implementation is so-so (no amazon prime streaming?). Hulu+ took forever to bring to market. Youtube occasionally crashes my box. Competition is creeping up on the DVR functionality, with others beating Tivo to streaming and whole-home positioning. The HDUI for the DVR itself remains incomplete.

If I wanted a streaming device, then there are a number of devices I'd choose before the Tivo. One of them is my TV itself which has most of these streaming services built into it. My blu-ray player and PS3 are also better streaming devices than my Tivo, and neither of them takes an eternity to boot if something goes wrong.

You are correct. It seems that TiVo is going all over the place. That's why I thought that TiVo should "join 'em" and focus as a media streamer #1. Then the DVR is icing on the cake as it can be marketed as a convenient way to store the streamed content for hiccup free viewing and "cut the cord" for recording all the OTA content to justify the monthly subscription.

However, I fear that TiVo is still stuck to the notion that they still need to crawl up the colon of MSO's, as they did on day one back in the 1990's. I'm certain the smart people at TiVo considered this, but 'ol Tom doesn't want to risk ticking off the MSO's. So, now TiVo is doomed to the mirage of the MSO promises (and DirecTV phoney baloney promise) to save them, along with the many patent suits.

Just an idea I thought could bring TiVo around to actually gain a few customers without wasting the time it did with Comcast and even DirecTV. I guess even TiVo is a Luddite. Say what ever happened to the mighty and solid as a rock Pam American Airways, or Blockbuster Video, the VCR, IBM personal computers, Xerox, you name it? I fear TiVo will be in that heap, and that would be a dirty shame. It is still a good product, but Tom's business model is to sue, sue, sue, rather than give us a 3rd tuner from which to record.

[dahacker]

It is still a good product, but Tom's business model is to sue, sue, sue, rather than give us a 3rd tuner from which to record.

+1

[aaronwt]

This is your opinion. My opinion based on well educated and high end consumer friends is that their sole decision factor is COST for DVRs.

If Tivo had Apple margins on products, then I would agree they should keep the price point. Reality is that Tivo is losing money on their DVRs and need to make and maintain market share or they will die.

A better analogy can be found in TVs. Remember Pioneer Kuro? They were the best TVs period, but everyone was picking TVs based on COST. So I think they should take their new found Dish money and match the cable company prices and market as such. Otherwise they will go the way of the Kuro.

No. Thank You.

If they were to match the cable prices they would need to raise their prices. It would cost me alot to get five HD DVRs from FiOS. While with my Premieres I will break even after 2.5 years(I'm halfway there) Plus they would have a miniscule amount of storage and I would not even be able to transfer shows to a PC for permanent storage like I can now. Plus they use more electricity than the Premieres. And with the TiVo I can sell it at some point later further reducing the cost.

Even if FiOS offered to give me free service I would not trade my Premeires for their DVR offerings. they can't even record shows reliably like the Premiere can. And for a DVR that is one of the most important things you need.

[orangeboy]

...It is still a good product, but Tom's business model is to sue, sue, sue, protect, protect, protect, rather than give us a 3rd tuner from which to record. allow others to steal the functions that make TiVo stand out.

FYP.

[atmuscarella]

This is your opinion. My opinion based on well educated and high end consumer friends is that their sole decision factor is COST for DVRs.

If Tivo had Apple margins on products, then I would agree they should keep the price point. Reality is that Tivo is losing money on their DVRs and need to make and maintain market share or they will die.

A better analogy can be found in TVs. Remember Pioneer Kuro? They were the best TVs period, but everyone was picking TVs based on COST. So I think they should take their new found Dish money and match the cable company prices and market as such. Otherwise they will go the way of the Kuro.

No. Thank You.Well your post outlines one of TiVos greatest problems and no it still is not price.

So in your mind the only thing that matters to anyone when it comes to a DVR is price? Really?

So for every other product category there is a range of available products from low price to high price but for DVRs there is only room for the lowest price product? Let me say again Really??

So if I go with your TV example the fact that for any size set you want to look at the fact that the lowest price set is 1/2 to 1/3 of the cost of the highest price sets apparently means no buys anything put the low price sets - let me say one more time Really???

The fact is TiVo can not always compete with cable company DVRs on price. Currently you can find cable company DVRs that are "free" or cost over $20/mo. Cable companies may choose to attempt to make money on the DVRs they rent or they may choose to use them as loss leaders. TiVo does not have that ability and can not set different prices for different markets.

The last time I saw any data on what cable companies were paying for DVRs was from data in a Motorola financial report that showed they were getting over $450/unit wholesale from the cable companies. If cable companies had to charge enough so that their DVRs where a profitable standalone business no one would be able to rent a DVR for anywhere near $20/month.

Thanks,

PS: Just in case you didn't get it, one of TiVos greatest problems is finding a way to market a TiVo so that people easily understand why it is a premium product and why it provides them with more value and is thus worth paying for. I would also say another great problem they have right now is actually delivering such a product.

[KungFuCow]

If you purchased this TiVo for You Tube use you made an error, the TiVo is a DVR with extras, You Tube, Netflix, etc. are all extras that make this DVR more valuable to some users but I think if your main use is not the DVR function, the other extras you want can be done on other hardware that may have a better interface for the other functions. TiVo was designed as a DVR and I know of no better alternative to this DVR for the DVR functions and the ability to put in a 2Tb drive and have fast MRV between your TiVos (TPs). If for example I just wanted Netflix I would purchase the Apple TV, that does a great job with Netflix, You Tube is best used on a PC, TiVo is not the best answer for all the extra stuff it can now do, but if you want a single box that is a good DVR you have no good alternative. TiVo now does Hulu +, Pandora, Netflix, You Tube, the weather, pictures from you computer, and the list goes on.

Since you're essentially giving Tivo a pass on their shoddy implementations, maybe they should put a disclaimer on the box or something. Something like.... "Netflix and YouTube are semi-complete and may not provide a satisfying user experience."

And your statement "Tivo now does blah blah blah", no, Tivo has half baked solutions to everything that isnt DVR related.

[lessd]

Since you're essentially giving Tivo a pass on their shoddy implementations, maybe they should put a disclaimer on the box or something. Something like.... "Netflix and YouTube are semi-complete and may not provide a satisfying user experience."

And your statement "Tivo now does blah blah blah", no, Tivo has half baked solutions to everything that isnt DVR related.

I think you just made my point half baked solutions to everything that isn't DVR related so if the other non DVR functions is what you want; get the hardware that is best suited for that function, TiVo may not be what some people want but most people don't purchase a TiVo for You Tube or Netflix as those services are what i call extras, use them if you want or purchase hardware that will do a better job than TiVo for the extras. Netflix is good enough for me on TiVo and I use my PC to watch any You Tube stuff.
I am only giving TiVo a pass because I like the DVR function and don't care much about the other extras, whatever i get (in other non DVR functions) is still better than nothing, or better (IMHO) than getting another box to go with the TiVo.

[smbaker]

PS: Just in case you didn't get it, one of TiVos greatest problems is finding a way to market a TiVo so that people easily understand why it is a premium product and why it provides them with more value and is thus worth paying for. I would also say another great problem they have right now is actually delivering such a product.

Agreed. Unfortunately, naming it the "Premiere" was not the same as delivering a "premium" product. Tivo's goal seems to be striving for mediocrity in every aspect, trying to produce as close an an average DVR as possible. Even minor things like completing the remaining screens in HD are not worth the bother.

Producing an average (or below average) DVR isn't going to succeed. I'm now at the point where I'm recommending to family members and relatives to keep what they have rather than purchasing a Tivo. It's just too much hassle for too little reward.

The only reason why I'm keeping personal loyalty to the brand is my familiarity with the interface. I'm stubborn and I don't like change.

[zooeyglass]

The only reason why I'm keeping personal loyalty to the brand is my familiarity with the interface. I'm stubborn and I don't like change.

I feel the same way. I have been a Tivo owner since 2000 and used to boast about Tivo and give them away as gifts. Now I often think about what is keeping me with Tivo instead of going elsewhere.

[atmuscarella]

Agreed. Unfortunately, naming it the "Premiere" was not the same as delivering a "premium" product. Tivo's goal seems to be striving for mediocrity in every aspect, trying to produce as close an an average DVR as possible. Even minor things like completing the remaining screens in HD are not worth the bother.

Producing an average (or below average) DVR isn't going to succeed. I'm now at the point where I'm recommending to family members and relatives to keep what they have rather than purchasing a Tivo. It's just too much hassle for too little reward.How TiVo stacks up against the "competition" is really a very individual thing and depends on your individual options.

If we exclude HTPCs most people only really have one or two other options.

For us OTA people the only other HD OTA DVR appliance out there is a VCR style DVR by Channel Master (http://www.amazon.com/Channel-Master-CM-7000PAL-Digital-Recorder/dp/B0033TJPJW). It costs about $300. Compared to that the Premiere is a significantly premium product. For existing TiVo owners the Premiere with lifetime only costs about $180 more and would seem like a very good value to me.

All cable users have Moxi (http://www.moxi.com/us/) as an option. I know nothing about the product other than it is priced close to a TiVo and many people are wondering about it's future also.

The wild card for most cable users is what they can get from their cable provider and how much it is going to cost.

There really isn't much question if a Premiere is a premium DVR compared to all of the cable DVRs I have seen - it is.

However there are 2 primary problems with the Premiere that caused me to write the statement I did ("I would also say another great problem they have right now is actually delivering such a product.").

One is the HDUI, TiVo pimped it as one reason why their DVR was superior to other DVRs so they need to fix it. Personally I think their SDUI is just fine and that they still had a superior product with it. I also do not think that graphically intensive UI enhances a DVR but that is not the way TiVo went so HDUI it is.

The second is the streaming media features of the Premiere. TiVo again made the decision to not promote the actual superior DVR features of the Premiere that make it a superior product but instead to pimp media streaming features and went into this "one box" promotion mode. Again the same as the HDUI that means the streaming media features have to work and be superior to the alternatives (which are not actually cable DVRs).

Personally streaming media through a TiVo made more sense to me 2 years ago. At this point every new TV and Blu-Ray player is loaded with streaming media features. Devices like a Roku are already becoming legacy devices, if TiVo really wants to be in the steaming media business they need to get their software in TVs (assuming they actual figure out how to do it well) which seems very very unlikely at this point. I just don't believe Samsung, Panasonic, Vizio, or LG are going to pay someone for their TVs operating systems and if they do it will more likely be Google.

The finial thing I will say about streaming media is that Roku has by building a very good product set the value of streaming media. Which is less than $80 (the cost of a Roku XD). So even if TIVo did streaming media as good as a Roku it only adds less than $80 to the TiVos value.

Thanks,

[smbaker]

second is the streaming media features of the Premiere. TiVo again made the decision to not promote the actual superior DVR features of the Premiere that make it a superior product but instead to pimp media streaming features and went into this "one box" promotion mode. Again the same as the HDUI that means the streaming media features have to work and be superior to the alternatives (which are not actually cable DVRs).

I think we're in agreement here. I now have 4-way redundancy in my living room for netflix, pandora, youtube, Hulu+, etc. If these features had a superior implementation on the Premiere, then it would be something to get excited about, but they don't. If I want to do any of those things, then one of the other boxes (even the internet capabilities in my TV itself) do a better job and are more reliable. Why people are so excited to see Hulu+ come to the Premiere when they could have simply bought a Hulu+ enabled blu-ray player or Roku with a better implementation six months ago is beyond me.

The point where we disagree is that I don't see anything in the Tivo at this point to qualify it as a "premium DVR". I can compare it to my father's directv DVR and his seems to do most of the same things. My personal preference is toward the Tivo interface, but there's no more significance to that than my preference of Chevrolet to Ford.

It's all about quality and attention to detail. You can't market a premium product if you let the quality control slip.

[aridon]

Directv and dish have the best non tivo dvrs. Bar none.

However you aren't using premiere with those services so its a moot point. You also aren't using netflix or hulu so welcome to second box land.

Also htpc are ok but good luck getting reliable hd recordings. The only way right now is with the hdpvr from hauppauge and trust me I tried it before buying a premiere this month. Sure it technically had the potential to work, it often times just didn't. They make better game recording devices, counting them to work reliably with media center or sage/myth tv isn't happening and they require significant baby sitting. Until more options come for recording hd they are not viable options.

Now if you torrent everything and stream sure htpc are great. But that is theft plain and simple. Morally casual individuals can get away with it and yes it works just as well if not better than tivo. But that is a different thing entirely.

[smbaker]

Directv and dish have the best non tivo dvrs. Bar none.

However you aren't using premiere with those services so its a moot point

It isn't an entirely moot point. One of the reasons I'm still with comcast is because of my Tivos. If I ever decided to drop the Tivo, I would immediately re-evaluate my choice in television providers before choosing a DVR. I suspect the same is true of many other users, for example see the "Molly Rants" CNET column referenced in a few threads here where I believe she dropped Tivo and switched providers at the same time.

[aridon]

It isn't an entirely moot point. One of the reasons I'm still with comcast is because of my Tivos. If I ever decided to drop the Tivo, I would immediately re-evaluate my choice in television providers before choosing a DVR. I suspect the same is true of many other users, for example see the "Molly Rants" CNET column referenced in a few threads here where I believe she dropped Tivo and switched providers at the same time.

It is moot because tivo doesn't really work well with those services like it does with cable so the option is really off the table for most people. Until there are cable card equivalents for satellite or the vapor ware directv box appears tivo won't be a factor on those platforms.

Also keep in mind dish rapes you on box fees if you go over one. Directv is better with that.

[smbaker]

It is moot because tivo doesn't really work well with those services like it does with cable so the option is really off the table for most people.

I fail to see the distinction. If I wanted to switch from the Tivo to the DirecTv DVR, then I'd switch from comcast to directv at the same time. I don't see how that option is off the table for most people (aside from any applicable service commitments).

In my particular case, my choice of DVR is influencing my choice of television provider, not vice-versa.

[lessd]

I fail to see the distinction. If I wanted to switch from the Tivo to the DirecTv DVR, then I'd switch from comcast to directv at the same time. I don't see how that option is off the table for most people (aside from any applicable service commitments).

In my particular case, my choice of DVR is influencing my choice of television provider, not vice-versa.

Most people do separate their TV service from their DVR service, they chose the TV service they want (OTA, Cable, Satellite, etc.) by looking at the total non DVR picture, like phone service, Internet service etc. If one was to select Comcast triple play system than the DVR selection would be next, and as of now it's only the Comcast DVR system or TiVo DVR system that makes the most sense for the average consumer.

[smbaker]

Most people do separate their TV service from their DVR service, they chose the TV service they want (OTA, Cable, Satellite, etc.) by looking at the total non DVR picture, like phone service, Internet service etc.

Tivo users aren't most people! We display uncommon brand loyalty. Or used to, at least.

[KungFuCow]

I think you just made my point half baked solutions to everything that isn't DVR related so if the other non DVR functions is what you want; get the hardware that is best suited for that function, TiVo may not be what some people want but most people don't purchase a TiVo for You Tube or Netflix as those services are what i call extras, use them if you want or purchase hardware that will do a better job than TiVo for the extras. Netflix is good enough for me on TiVo and I use my PC to watch any You Tube stuff.
I am only giving TiVo a pass because I like the DVR function and don't care much about the other extras, whatever i get (in other non DVR functions) is still better than nothing, or better (IMHO) than getting another box to go with the TiVo.

And I agree with you but if Tivo is going to advertise these features, they should at least be passable usable.

[lessd]

And I agree with you but if Tivo is going to advertise these features, they should at least be passable usable.

What passable usable, and TiVo does not do much national advertising, How good does say Netflix have to be to be passable, I think it is good enough for my use but my friend has Netflix on the Apple TV, the interface a way ahead of what TiVo is doing, but for me it's a second box, and the use of another TV input, things just get more complicated, if it is worth to you do it.

[unitron]

Coupon code plsr still works for $100 off life time.

For all model TiVos, or just S4s?

[dahacker]

So in your mind the only thing that matters to anyone when it comes to a DVR is price? Really?


No. I think Tivo's reasons for loss of subscribers to other DVRs is in the following order.

1. Cost (perceived or real) as compared to a Cable Company DVR.
2. Convenience. (easier to just have the Cable company install theirs)
3. Cablecard Sucks.
4. Marketing.
5. Features.

With cost VERY HEAVILY weighted.

Until you provide an actual study to refute, I will not believe otherwise. Have you asked your friends who have other branded DVRs why they chose to not get a Tivo? I've already located an older Tivo study that showed COST was the primary concern of NEW customers. I also located a Tivo internal powerpoint presentation that showed PRICE was their number one problem they were trying to fix. They were older studies, so I will not link to them here. I would love to know the current FACTS whether they agree with me or not.

No THANK YOU!

[lessd]

No. I think Tivo's reasons for loss of subscribers to other DVRs is in the following order.

1. Cost (perceived or real) as compared to a Cable Company DVR.
2. Convenience. (easier to just have the Cable company install theirs)
3. Cablecard Sucks.
4. Marketing.
5. Features.

With cost VERY HEAVILY weighted.

Until you provide an actual study to refute, I will not believe otherwise. Have you asked your friends who have other branded DVRs why they chose to not get a Tivo? I've already located an older Tivo study that showed COST was the primary concern of NEW customers. I also located a Tivo internal powerpoint presentation that showed PRICE was their number one problem they were trying to fix. They were older studies, so I will not link to them here. I would love to know the current FACTS whether they agree with me or not.

No THANK YOU!

All I can tell you is that purchased correctly, two or more TiVos with Lifetime Service is less costly that two or more cable DVR, and if having more storage is important to you than TiVo is the only way to go. This assumes keeping the TiVos for more than 4 years and/or the fact that you can sell a used TiVo and get back much (sometimes more) of your Lifetime Cost. I will say also that TiVo has a small hardware risk problem (your TiVo hardware goes up in smoke) that one would not have with a cable DVR. In my 10 years of having many TiVos (about 20 different TiVos) I never had any hardware problems except the replacement of some of my upgraded hard drives.

[smbaker]

1. Cost (perceived or real) as compared to a Cable Company DVR.
2. Convenience. (easier to just have the Cable company install theirs)
3. Cablecard Sucks.
4. Marketing.
5. Features.

With cost VERY HEAVILY weighted.

A superior product can often be sold for a higher price if the price can be justified. Take something like Apple for example where the prices are quite high but they enjoy a very loyal customer following.

I would combine your points #2 and #3 and say that the cablecard requirement is the most significant factor affecting purchase. It prevents the Tivo from being treated as a simple appliance that the customer can take home and plug in. Instead, the customer is told that in order to use the device he must contact a third party, pay an unknown up-front fee and an unknown month-to-month free, and wait. Americans are an instant gratification society. If they buy something, they want to use it immediately.

[crxssi]

All I can tell you is that purchased correctly, two or more TiVos with Lifetime Service is less costly that two or more cable DVR,

That COMPLETELY depends on what your cable company charges for their DVR's, cablecards, what factor, if any, you put in for repairs/maintenance of the TiVo, how long the TiVo will last, and what you actually ended up paying for your TiVo and Lifetime.

Your loose generalization does not hold across the board.

[crxssi]

I say that the cablecard requirement is the most significant factor affecting purchase. It prevents the Tivo from being treated as a simple appliance that the customer can take home and plug in. Instead, the customer is told that in order to use the device he must contact a third party, pay an unknown up-front fee and an unknown month-to-month free, and wait.

And for many (soon to be most), they also have to fight with tuning adapters. Another monster of unfriendliness (something else to break, compatibility issues, additional coax cables, additional power cable, additional USB cable, additional space to place it, etc).

[lessd]

That COMPLETELY depends on what your cable company charges for their DVR's, cablecards, what factor, if any, you put in for repairs/maintenance of the TiVo, how long the TiVo will last, and what you actually ended up paying for your TiVo and Lifetime.

Your loose generalization does not hold across the board.

I have four TiVos so I guess if the cable co did not charge much for the extra 3 cable DVRs you may be correct, however in the past my cost of a TiVo after selling it on E-Bay has been about $3 to $4 /month, sometimes i made a profit on the TiVo so my cost has almost been zero inc $1.5/month I pay for each cable card. I do admit that many people can't pull this off because their cable co charges an HD outlet fee (my Comcast has AO for each cable card on the bill but the charge is $0). Each person has to look at their own situation with their cable co., but if i can do it some others must also be able to do it.