No HD UI with Premiere ?

[ilkevinli]

I bought 2 Premiers from Best Buy today and both units received the update to 14.1-01-3-746 but both are missing the HD UI and there isn't an option anywhere to turn it on. Is anyone else running into this issue ? Thanks.

[bkdtv]

Two others noted the same issue.

If you scroll down to the bottom of the system information screen, you'll see that the HD menu is installed on your box, but unavailable. Despite TiVoPony's post, it doesn't look like they flipped the switch on the HD UI quite yet.

[ilkevinli]

Interesting. Thanks for the info. I was going crazy. :D

Two others noted the same issue.

If you scroll down to the bottom of the system information screen, you'll see that the HD menu is installed on your box, but unavailable. Despite TiVoPony's post, it doesn't look like they flipped the switch on the HD UI quite yet.

[Unseen Llama]

I have the same issue. Just waiting for them to flip the switch!

[jfh3]

I bought 2 Premiers from Best Buy today and both units received the update to 14.1-01-3-746 but both are missing the HD UI and there isn't an option anywhere to turn it on. Is anyone else running into this issue ? Thanks.

Bizarre. I have the HD UI on a Premiere (model 746). During setup, I downloaded version 14.1-01-3-746

[SafariKC]

I'm curious if this has to do more with having the TiVo Activated or not. Are the folks who have the HDUI installed using a box that's been activated, or are you using the trial sub that comes with the box?

KC

[ilkevinli]

Both of my boxes are activated and neither have the HD UI available.



I'm curious if this has to do more with having the TiVo Activated or not. Are the folks who have the HDUI installed using a box that's been activated, or are you using the trial sub that comes with the box?

KC

[Unseen Llama]

I'm curious if this has to do more with having the TiVo Activated or not. Are the folks who have the HDUI installed using a box that's been activated, or are you using the trial sub that comes with the box?

KC

My device has been activated.

It does state this on the activation page:

"If you activate your TiVo® Premiere before early April, you will only experience our standard-definition user interface. The new HD user interface will download through a software update to your Premiere in early April."

Also this link
http://support.tivo.com/app/answers/detail/a_id/1611

So those that have the new HDUI, you are using a trial subscription?

[SafariKC]

So those that have the new HDUI, you are using a trial subscription?

I've got Lifetime on my unit and HDUI is available.

[ilkevinli]

What I don't understand is how we can all have the same software version but some have HD UI and some don't.




I've got Lifetime on my unit and HDUI is available.

[jfh3]

I'm curious if this has to do more with having the TiVo Activated or not. Are the folks who have the HDUI installed using a box that's been activated, or are you using the trial sub that comes with the box?


My box is still in the trial period - have not put service on it yet.

So. it appears that whether or not you have the HDUI doesn't depend on the service level.

[jfh3]

What I don't understand is how we can all have the same software version but some have HD UI and some don't.

Maybe it is connection type - component and/or HDMI cable to an HDTV = HDUI, otherwise SD?

[Unseen Llama]

Maybe it is connection type - component and/or HDMI cable to an HDTV = HDUI, otherwise SD?

Nope. I only have HDMI, video set at 720p.

[ilkevinli]

I have an HDMI and only have 1080i and 1080p checked.



Nope. I only have HDMI, video set at 720p.

[Unseen Llama]

I'll give it 24 hours before calling Tivo. Maybe there is some kind of activation on their side that still needs to happen.

[mamosley]

No HDUI on mine either. Has the latest software verision. I had it make another connection to update the guide information past tuesday. It has been loading the last update for almost 2.5 hours. After it is done that I'll do what tivo's web site suggests. I do have to say the sd ui is flying!


To switch from TiVo with SD menus to TiVo with HD menus, press the TiVo button to go to TiVo Central and then select Messages & Settings > Restart or Reset System > Choose TiVo Menus > TiVo with HD Menus (Widescreen).

To switch from TiVo with HD menus to TiVo with SD menus, press the TiVo button to go to TiVo Central and then select Messages & Settings > Settings > Displays > Choose TiVo Menus > TiVo with SD Menus (Standard Screen).

[Unseen Llama]

No HDUI on mine either. Has the latest software verision. I had it make another connection to update the guide information past tuesday. It has been loading the last update for almost 2.5 hours. After it is done that I'll do what tivo's web site suggests. I do have to say the sd ui is flying!


To switch from TiVo with SD menus to TiVo with HD menus, press the TiVo button to go to TiVo Central and then select Messages & Settings > Restart or Reset System > Choose TiVo Menus > TiVo with HD Menus (Widescreen).

To switch from TiVo with HD menus to TiVo with SD menus, press the TiVo button to go to TiVo Central and then select Messages & Settings > Settings > Displays > Choose TiVo Menus > TiVo with SD Menus (Standard Screen).

So you had the old UI at first, then did the system update and now you can see the "Tivo with HD Menus" option?

I don't even see that as an option under my Restart or Reset System menu. I did receive the system update.

Software version: 14.1-01-3-746
Flash player version: 14-1-mr/2010.03.11-1216
HD Menu Software Version: 1-0/2010.03.19-0927
HDUI Available: No
Active UI Mode: Classic
HDUI Support: Capable

Do I not have the latest software?

[mamosley]

So you had the old UI at first, then did the system update and now you can see the "Tivo with HD Menus" option?

I don't even see that as an option under my Restart or Reset System menu. I did receive the system update.

Software version: 14.1-01-3-746
Flash player version: 14-1-mr/2010.03.11-1216
HD Menu Software Version: 1-0/2010.03.19-0927
HDUI Available: No
Active UI Mode: Classic
HDUI Support: Capable

Do I not have the latest software?

Unfortunately not. I waited for the update to complete, did not get the menu. restarted the tivo, still do not have the menu.

[vansmack]

What a buzz kill. So I get to spend the first few days seeing if my Series 4 box is a faster version of a Series 3 box. It is. Grrrreaat.

[comma, splice]

Reposting in this thread...


It looks like nobody is "supposed" to have the HD user interface yet, according to a representative at TiVo.

Here's the conversation, which happened today (Monday, March 29):

[me]: I've been reading on the TiVo Community message boards that people who got theirs yesterday at Best Buy don't have the HD user interface.
[me]: Do you know if the ones shipping from TiVo will have the new interface?
Chad: Nobody has the HDUI until we officially start shipping our units.
Chad: The HDUI is provided as a software update, which I assume is being released today.
[me]: Oh, OK. Thank you!

So could that mean that those who are seeing the HD user interface got it mistakenly?

[vansmack]

Do I not have the latest software?

According to the TiVo chat I just had, we do not.

Some boxes were shipped pre-loaded with the UI loaded and enabled, some did not. Those that did not have to wait for the UI to hit the servers "it should be released today and should reach your box in the next couple days."

[Unseen Llama]

According to the TiVo chat I just had, we do not.

Some boxes were shipped pre-loaded with the UI loaded and enabled, some did not. Those that did not have to wait for the UI to hit the servers "it should be released today and should reach your box in the next couple days."

Chatted with a Tivo rep this morning. He reset/rehit my Tivo Premier and gave me a button pattern to try and reset the system. I'll try when I get home and see if that works.

I sent him my software versions and he said that it was the latest.

[gothaggis]

I bought my unit at Best Buy and it has the HDUI enabled - it had to download updates during setup which took about an hour or so to fully complete.

[greensky]

gothaggis, is the UI any faster than what they showed in the Gizmodo/Engadget reveiws?

[noah82]

I have been in chat sessions with Tivo all day, and I cannot get my box to download the HD interface. I have powered off, started up, restarted guided setup, tried thumbs up thumbs down play play, and nothing works!

Has anybody found a way to manually force the Tivo to download the HD interface or am I stuck until Tivo blesses me with the interface that they have advertised?

[bkdtv]

Today is the first business day since the Premiere launch. I would expect the "no HDUI on my TiVo" issue to be rectified in the next 24 hours.

[noah82]

Well that sucks. I was looking forward to playing with the new HD interface today.

[TiVoPony]

You should have the UI. If you're not seeing it, drop me a private message with your TSN (don't post your TSN in the thread!).

Thanks,
Pony

[noah82]

PM sent. Thank you very much for your help!!

[TiVoPony]

Also, if you could let us know what you've set for your screen resolution, and whether you're using the 'smartscreen' setting under the video/tv aspect ratio menu that'll help.

Pony

[noah82]

Resolution - 1080i (only box that is checked)
Video Aspect Ratio - 16:9 Widescreen, Smartscreen NOT enabled. Should I enable it?

[Unseen Llama]

You should have the UI. If you're not seeing it, drop me a private message with your TSN (don't post your TSN in the thread!).

Thanks,
Pony

I've sent you my TSN as well. Having the same issue of not seeing the new HD UI.

[gothaggis]

gothaggis, is the UI any faster than what they showed in the Gizmodo/Engadget reveiws?

no - it's the same as in the reviews. it really doesn't make any sense why it is slow.....coming from a programming background (and have had experience with flash) - it looks like they refresh the menu text on every new menu load...just doesn't make very much sense to me.

of course, in my personal opinion, they should have used c++ instead of flash, much less overhead.

[TiVoPony]

Also, if you could let us know what you've set for your screen resolution, and whether you're using the 'smartscreen' setting under the video/tv aspect ratio menu that'll help.

Pony

Thanks, we have a couple of datapoints now and are investigating. I'll let you know if we need more information.

Pony

[vansmack]

Thanks, we have a couple of datapoints now and are investigating. I'll let you know if we need more information.

Pony

Thanks for looking into this. I forgot to include my screen reslution - 1080i.

[TiVoPony]

Problem found, resolution going in place. The conservative side of me says you should check back later tonight, but the optimistic side of me says you might be fine in about an hour.

It was a small number of units that hadn't been put into the appropriate grouping on the service to receive the new HDUI. Once this is corrected you should see choosing HDUI as an option after making a service connection (it may take two connections, depending on what else the box is doing). You'll know you're good to go if you see a 'Choose TiVo Menus' item under the Displays screen within Settings.

Thanks to everyone for forwarding your information so quickly!

Pony

[Unseen Llama]

Problem found, resolution going in place. The conservative side of me says you should check back later tonight, but the optimistic side of me says you might be fine in about an hour.

It was a small number of units that hadn't been put into the appropriate grouping on the service to receive the new HD UI. Once this is corrected you should see HDUI as an option after making a service connection (it may take two connections, depending on what else the box is doing). You'll know you're good to go if you see a 'Choose TiVo Menus' item under the Displays screen within Settings.

Thanks to everyone for forwarding your information so quickly!

Pony

Already fixed! Thank you!

[innocentfreak]

Glad to hear you guys got your HD UI.

[Unseen Llama]

Glad to hear you guys got your HD UI.

Thanks for everyones help here! I was banging my head against the wall trying to figure out what was wrong. Glad the problem was found so that future Premier owners won't run into it.

[tomm1079]

now thats service......gotta appreciate the help Pony puts in here.

[noah82]

My HD menu was just enabled too...thanks so much for your quick response!!!

[ilkevinli]

Thanks Pony ! Mine is now fixed also.

[vansmack]

Mine too a reoot, but it's working now - thanks Pony!

[jbdecker]

Mine's working too. Definitely not as slow as the reviews but I do see a lot of room for improvement.

The UI does look great but it feels like a skin. Once you dig deeper you continuously run into old menu's that make the screen flash each time they refresh.

[jbdecker]

no - it's the same as in the reviews. it really doesn't make any sense why it is slow.....coming from a programming background (and have had experience with flash) - it looks like they refresh the menu text on every new menu load...just doesn't make very much sense to me.

of course, in my personal opinion, they should have used c++ instead of flash, much less overhead.

It is kinda funny since lately all the tech news for the last month has been about working around flash, and improving things with HTML5 since the iPad won't support it. When TiVo announced the whole UI was flash based I thought I was back in 1996.

[brasscat]

It is kinda funny since lately all the tech news for the last month has been about working around flash, and improving things with HTML5 since the iPad won't support it. When TiVo announced the whole UI was flash based I thought I was back in 1996.

I think the consensus is Flash has become too widespread as a proprietary multimedia delivery method inside web browsers, and since the code is black-box maintained by Adobe the community can't improve on it, or bug fix it when issues arrive. Apple states the Flash engine for Mac is buggy and the primary cause for browser crashes -- and that Adobe is slow to correct the problem... which is the main reason for the Jobs push-away from Flash to the new HTML5 option.

Flash on the TiVo box is running native, not as a embedded browser module, and is inherently more stable. In TiVo's case, where they are building essentially a multimedia viewer, it makes sense over supporting a codebase of propriety C objects (which they admit was difficult to support over time).

We'll see how they do with incremental updates in the months to come. Updates to the previous TiVo models were rare. It would be great if this new TiVo was faster with updates, especially in finishing out the UI, adding performance improvements, and enabling that second core.

[gweempose]

It would be great if this new TiVo was faster with updates, especially in finishing out the UI, adding performance improvements, and enabling that second core.Am I the only one that thinks it is unlikely they will ever enable the second core? Granted, I am not privy to any technical knowledge relating to the matter, but my gut just tells me that it will never happen.

[orangeboy]

Am I the only one that thinks it is unlikely they will ever enable the second core? Granted, I am not privy to any technical knowledge relating to the matter, but my gut just tells me that it will never happen.

Has it been confirmed by TiVo that the second core is not being used? I would think it unlikely that they'd knowingly not write the software to take advantage of it. If so, why choose that processor? To start from scratch (re)writing software to take advantage of it at some later time? :confused:

[rainwater]

Am I the only one that thinks it is unlikely they will ever enable the second core?

Unfortunately, that article discussing the use of the CPU cores sounds way off base. It is almost impossible to think that both cores aren't being used at the operating system level. I think the article may be referring to the use of the UI layer to take advantage of both cores more effectively. Right now they are most likely relying on the OS to make all those decisions.

[Dark Helmet]

Am I the only one that thinks it is unlikely they will ever enable the second core? Granted, I am not privy to any technical knowledge relating to the matter, but my gut just tells me that it will never happen.

I am confident that both cores will be used eventually (I think rainwater has it right; it sounds like the UI isn't multithreaded, probably the OS can make use of both cores, but that's just a guess).

I remember back when the S3 came out, and there were lots of people who were sure we would never see TiVoToGo and MRV working, the eSATA port enabled ... and while it took a while, now we all take those things for granted. I'm sure most everyone has forgotten all of the moaning and wailing back from when the S3 first came out!

[ilh]

I'll bet both cores are being used by the kernel (OS), and that it is simply that threading in the UI application is not yet enabled. I wonder if this contributes to the very good transfer speeds since one core is generally idle and able to handle transfers.

[gweempose]

I wonder if this contributes to the very good transfer speeds since one core is generally idle and able to handle transfers?So you are suggesting that if they get the UI to utilize both cores, it could negatively impact transfer speeds? That would suck.

[ilh]

Not necessarily. Hopefully the CPU isn't too intimately involved in the ethernet traffic. Is the CPU involved in any encryption/decryption on such transfers? I can't remember where that happens on a TiVo and on which end of a transfer.

[brasscat]

Unfortunately, that article discussing the use of the CPU cores sounds way off base. It is almost impossible to think that both cores aren't being used at the operating system level. I think the article may be referring to the use of the UI layer to take advantage of both cores more effectively. Right now they are most likely relying on the OS to make all those decisions.

I agree the second core is probably being used at the os/hardware level.

I learned about the "inactive" second core from an interview with the TiVo guys at the announcement - -where some TiVo PR guy mentioned that the "second core is currently turned off due to stability issues" and that it would eventually be turned on with later updates.

To me this implies they expect a performance increase once they tune the software to parallel process against that second core.

[sghrush]

Problem found, resolution going in place. The conservative side of me says you should check back later tonight, but the optimistic side of me says you might be fine in about an hour.

It was a small number of units that hadn't been put into the appropriate grouping on the service to receive the new HDUI. Once this is corrected you should see choosing HDUI as an option after making a service connection (it may take two connections, depending on what else the box is doing). You'll know you're good to go if you see a 'Choose TiVo Menus' item under the Displays screen within Settings.

Thanks to everyone for forwarding your information so quickly!

Pony

I completed the service update for my Tivo Premiere but it states HD UI is turned off. Hopefully TivoPony's magical powers can fix it.

[RoyK]

I agree the second core is probably being used at the os/hardware level.

I learned about the "inactive" second core from an interview with the TiVo guys at the announcement - -where some TiVo PR guy mentioned that the "second core is currently turned off due to stability issues" and that it would eventually be turned on with later updates.

....

Yup. Just like the capability to do 2 tuners on one M-Card on the S3 was to eventually be turned on with later updates. Oh, ... wait a minute...

[TiVoPony]

Yup. Just like the capability to do 2 tuners on one M-Card on the S3 was to eventually be turned on with later updates. Oh, ... wait a minute...

Actually Roy, that was never promised, and I posted that while technically feasible, it was not likely to happen - it involved big changes that could destabilize things.

If you're going to ding us, ding us for things we actually promised. ;)

Pony

[TiVoPony]

Has it been confirmed by TiVo that the second core is not being used? I would think it unlikely that they'd knowingly not write the software to take advantage of it. If so, why choose that processor? To start from scratch (re)writing software to take advantage of it at some later time? :confused:

Yes, the second core is not currently enabled. The software can take advantage of it, but it's not ready to release yet. Still, due to the architecture of that chip you don't get double the performance by enabling the second core, there are too many shared resources on the chip between the two cores. You do see a boost however.

Cheers,
Pony

[orangeboy]

Yes, the second core is not currently enabled. The software can take advantage of it, but it's not ready to release yet. Still, due to the architecture of that chip you don't get double the performance by enabling the second core, there are too many shared resources on the chip between the two cores. You do see a boost however.

Cheers,
Pony

Thanks Pony for clearing that up for me! I just didn't make sense to me to have the software written to not take advantage of the dual core, and then spend the time and resources to write software that would. I'm glad to hear that it was "done right" the first time, and now it's just a matter of tweaking it to TiVo's (and hopefully the user's) satisfaction.

[lessd]

Actually Roy, that was never promised, and I posted that while technically feasible, it was not likely to happen - it involved big changes that could destabilize things.

If you're going to ding us, ding us for things we actually promised. ;)

Pony

So from you explanation it would fair for us to assume that at this point the use of a single M cable card in the Series 3 648 will never happen, I don't have a problem with that because, as you pointed out it, was never promised, just hinted at. I do love the Series 3(s) for many reasons and fixing them so i could use one M card would save me only $1.50/month for each Series 3.

[NotVeryWitty]

So from you explanation it would fair for us to assume that at this point the use of a single M cable card in the Series 3 648 will never happen, I don't have a problem with that because, as you pointed out it, was never promised, just hinted at. I do love the Series 3(s) for many reasons and fixing them so i could use one M card would save me only $1.50/month for each Series 3.
When is it a "hint" and when is it a "promise"?

Has Tivo "promised" to use the second CPU core? I don't think so.

Has Tivo "promised" *anything*? Ever?

Until I see the P-word itself come from Bob or another official Tivo rep, I think I need to assume that none of the "hinted-at" features will appear in the shipping Premiere software. So, it would be prudent for me to wait to see what Tivo can actually deliver before I plunk my money down...

[RoyK]

Actually Roy, that was never promised, and I posted that while technically feasible, it was not likely to happen - it involved big changes that could destabilize things.

If you're going to ding us, ding us for things we actually promised. ;)

Pony

I recall that posting being made after TiVo found it could not live up to the statement you made not once but twice in the video taken at CES 2006 (http://www.gearlive.com/index.php/news/article/ces-2006-video-tivo-series-3-video-interview-first-look-0108051437/) that the S3 would require one multistream card or two single stream cards.

[ZeoTiVo]

I recall that posting being made after TiVo found it could not live up to the statement you made not once but twice in the video taken at CES 2006 (http://www.gearlive.com/index.php/news/article/ces-2006-video-tivo-series-3-video-interview-first-look-0108051437/) that the S3 would require one multistream card or two single stream cards.

Wow, you should just get a Moxi and save yourself a lot of heartburn and video archiving. :D

[innocentfreak]

Yes, the second core is not currently enabled. The software can take advantage of it, but it's not ready to release yet. Still, due to the architecture of that chip you don't get double the performance by enabling the second core, there are too many shared resources on the chip between the two cores. You do see a boost however.

Cheers,
Pony

Any word on how enabling the second core may affect transfer speeds? I thought I read somewhere we might see some type of decrease in speed since that core wouldn't be free anymore to handle just the transfer.

[lessd]

When is it a "hint" and when is it a "promise"?

Has Tivo "promised" to use the second CPU core? I don't think so.

Has Tivo "promised" *anything*? Ever?

Until I see the P-word itself come from Bob or another official Tivo rep, I think I need to assume that none of the "hinted-at" features will appear in the shipping Premiere software. So, it would be prudent for me to wait to see what Tivo can actually deliver before I plunk my money down...

I was not referring to the Premiere, I was making reference to the original Series 3.
TiVo has promised the HDUI for the premier but not for any Series 3 TiVo, when it is in the Spec it's a promise. When the original Series 3 came out MRV was not available, TiVo hinted that it would be in the future, and a few months later it was.

[TiVoPony]

I recall that posting being made after TiVo found it could not live up to the statement you made not once but twice in the video taken at CES 2006 (http://www.gearlive.com/index.php/news/article/ces-2006-video-tivo-series-3-video-interview-first-look-0108051437/) that the S3 would require one multistream card or two single stream cards.

Roy, good job digging up that video from 2006. Ahh, we were all so much younger then.

To be clear, that was taken at a tradeshow, with a prototype box, nine months prior to product launch. CableLabs did not introduce a certification process for MCard devices until a year later (after Series3 was on the market).

The marketing materials, manual, etc at the time of the Series3 launch did not claim it worked with MCard.

And, as I pointed out, I clarified that this was not in the cards for Series3 not once, but twice in 2008. Here's the post. (http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?p=6598668#post6598668)

I apologize if you misunderstood 'very, very unlikely'. Or if you made your purchase decision based on preliminary information taken from a trade show nine months prior to launch. It certainly was not our intention to mislead you, or others. The guy speaking in January 2006 on that video had every reason to believe that the cable industry would move faster than they did on MCard, and that the product would be able to embrace that new technology.

Now that the full background is there...I'm not looking for an argument. But I will share that this type of 'welcome' is exactly the reason you don't see much of the old TiVo gang online here anymore. Since dropping back in here I've had some words of encouragement, but it's also been asserted that I don't tell the truth, am not to be trusted, that I'm a 'marketing puke'...

Is that really how you all want to attract more participation from TiVo?

Cheers,
Pony

[athens2004]

Well put.

[jdgarrido]

Pony, don't let some negative post keep you away. I believe that the great majority of those that browse the forums, love it when you come and give us help and insight on Tivo's side. Please keep come back as often as possible.

[innocentfreak]

Is that really how you all want to attract more participation from TiVo?

Cheers,
Pony

Definitely not. I know I for one am happy to see you posting on here again.

[RoyK]

...
Now that the full background is there...I'm not looking for an argument. But I will share that this type of 'welcome' is exactly the reason you don't see much of the old TiVo gang online here anymore. Since dropping back in here I've had some words of encouragement, but it's also been asserted that I don't tell the truth, am not to be trusted, that I'm a 'marketing puke'...

Is that really how you all want to attract more participation from TiVo?

Cheers,
Pony

I didn't mention you at all until you posted a comment in response to my posting stating that you (TiVo) never said that the S3 would be capable of using a single multistream card for multiple tuners.

That isn't true as the video clip clearly shows.

I'd accept your criticism if I'd called you one of the things you mentioned above. I didn't.

Regards

[orangeboy]

...
Now that the full background is there...I'm not looking for an argument. But I will share that this type of 'welcome' is exactly the reason you don't see much of the old TiVo gang online here anymore. Since dropping back in here I've had some words of encouragement, but it's also been asserted that I don't tell the truth, am not to be trusted, that I'm a 'marketing puke'...

Is that really how you all want to attract more participation from TiVo?

Cheers,
Pony

I didn't mention you at all until you posted a comment in response to my posting stating that you (TiVo) never said that the S3 would be capable of using a single multistream card for multiple tuners.

That isn't true as the video clip clearly shows.

I'd accept your criticism if I'd called you one of the things you mentioned above. I didn't.

Regards

Roy,
Pony clearly made his remarks general when he said "you all". If you didn't make any disparaging remarks towards Pony or other TiVo employees, then take no criticism.

This next part is not directed at you Roy.
People bitch about TiVo not participating in the Community forum, but can you blame them after the personal bashing that Pony described? I've said it before: this forum feels less communal, especially when riddled with negative posts and rants about how much better "product X" is so much better than TiVo.

[nrc]

Yup. Just like the capability to do 2 tuners on one M-Card on the S3 was to eventually be turned on with later updates. Oh, ... wait a minute...

Tivo has added features and functionality to every new Series after their introduction. I'm enjoying many features on my S3 today that weren't available or promised at launch.

[nrc]

I didn't mention you at all until you posted a comment in response to my posting stating that you (TiVo) never said that the S3 would be capable of using a single multistream card for multiple tuners.

That isn't true as the video clip clearly shows.

I'd accept your criticism if I'd called you one of the things you mentioned above. I didn't.

Regards

Meanwhile people wonder why TiVo doesn't talk about anything in advance anymore.

[slowbiscuit]

Now that the full background is there...I'm not looking for an argument. But I will share that this type of 'welcome' is exactly the reason you don't see much of the old TiVo gang online here anymore. Since dropping back in here I've had some words of encouragement, but it's also been asserted that I don't tell the truth, am not to be trusted, that I'm a 'marketing puke'...

I'm sorry, but that's self-serving BS. You can always take the high road and ignore the extremists, but if all you want to hear from are fanboys then you need to stick to the tivo.com blog and forums.

Legit criticism of the Premiere and Tivo's decisions on software changes should be welcome here, same as the praise that comes with listening and acting on good suggestions from your customers.

[orangeboy]

Now that the full background is there...I'm not looking for an argument. But I will share that this type of 'welcome' is exactly the reason you don't see much of the old TiVo gang online here anymore. Since dropping back in here I've had some words of encouragement, but it's also been asserted that I don't tell the truth, am not to be trusted, that I'm a 'marketing puke'...


...Legit criticism of the Premiere and Tivo's decisions on software changes should be welcome here, same as the praise that comes with listening and acting on good suggestions from your customers.

Correct. Personal attacks and name calling that Pony described (and endured) are not welcome.

[comma, splice]

Don't bite the hand that feeds.

[comma, splice]

Perfectly worded IMO. I am happy to see Tivo employees here again. I just wonder where they were when developing the series 4. Faster MRV is about the only feature wished for here that is included in the premiere.

I'd be happy if tivo explained why they are not interested in things like hive scheduling, MRV streaming, DLNA and all the other great suggestions made here. Are they even aware of all the great suggestions from their customers?

TiVO owes "us" nothing but perhaps addressing these things might quiet the sour grapes feeling at TCF.


I won't hold my breath.:D


respectfully,
Ferrumpneuma

Off topic, but... what is hive scheduling?

[orangeboy]

Perfectly worded IMO. I am happy to see Tivo employees here again. I just wonder where they were when developing the series 4. Faster MRV is about the only feature wished for here that is included in the premiere.

Also included in the Premiere is the Free Space Indicator and Video Window that some/many seemed to want.


I'd be happy if tivo explained why they are not interested in things like hive scheduling, MRV streaming, DLNA and all the other great suggestions made here. Are they even aware of all the great suggestions from their customers?


It's possible those things are on the mind of TiVo, but don't want to disclose anything for fear of being dinged by it later should it not come to pass (MCard support in the 648 model being mentioned earlier in this thread being an example...)

[ZeoTiVo]

But I will share that this type of 'welcome' is exactly the reason you don't see much of the old TiVo gang online here anymore.
I completely understand TiVoPony. Posters are allowed now adays to go so far off base here without so much as a hand slap. Dare speak up to the people going way off base........
Since none of that can be publicly discussed I have just resorted to acting stupid like the rest of them. I have no further desire to add anything of value to this forum.
maybe noting that a TiVo representative has no desire to post in the TiVo community forum can get the forum owners to wake up and smell the coffee on how much better a forum this could be again. Ignore lists are no good when they get filled up daily or the TiVo reps decide to legitmately put the entire forum on their ignore lists.

[orangeboy]

I completely understand TiVoPony. Posters are allowed now adays to go so far off base here without so much as a hand slap. Dare speak up to the people going way off base........
Since none of that can be publicly discussed I have just resorted to acting stupid like the rest of them. I have no further desire to add anything of value to this forum.
maybe noting that a TiVo representative has no desire to post in the TiVo community forum can get the forum owners to wake up and smell the coffee on how much better a forum this could be again. Ignore lists are no good when they get filled up daily.

Not that it matters, you've just been removed from my ignore list.

[ldobson]

It would be nice if some of the folks around here would let TiVo be TiVo and not try to run the company from their computer chair.

Everyone has an opinion, but surely TiVo and its employees have reasons for the decisions they have made, and I believe TiVo are listening to their customers by utilsing these forums. I think many of the reasons why some of the most requested features have not been implemented, probably lies more with the hardware limitations and impact on the user experience more than it does with lack of innovation. With the birth of the Premiere, TiVo will have a lot more headspace to build on their product, and not only implement features they have on their wish list but hopefully features regularly requested from their customer base.

I for one am glad that Pony and other TiVo employees make time to visit these forums, which illustrates that TiVo has not become too big to listen to their customers.

No, I am not a TiVo fan boy, I was disappointed that the personalized user profiles were nothing more than a mock up (a feature I feel would be useful for me), but I`m just one of many TiVo users out there, and can accept that no one product it going to be perfect as you simply cannot please everyone.

[ZeoTiVo]

I'm sorry, but that's self-serving BS. You can always take the high road and ignore the extremists, but if all you want to hear from are fanboys then you need to stick to the tivo.com blog and forums.

Legit criticism of the Premiere and Tivo's decisions on software changes should be welcome here, same as the praise that comes with listening and acting on good suggestions from your customers.

do you read the posts? The hassle was over RoyK dragging up video about the series 3 It was a dead issue but he just had to bash TiVoPony with it, and people wonder why I just have lightened up and gone with stupid posts for the most part :rolleyes:

[orangeboy]

...No, I am not a TiVo fan boy, I was disappointed that the personalized user profiles were nothing more than a mock up (a feature I feel would be useful for me), but I`m just one of many TiVo users out there, and can accept that no one product it going to be perfect as you simply cannot please everyone.

On a positive note concerning the mock ups, it demonstrates that innovative ideas are still being produced by TiVo, but just not implemented ( yet? )

[RoyK]

do you read the posts? The hassle was over RoyK dragging up video about the series 3 It was a dead issue but he just had to bash TiVoPony with it, and people wonder why I just have lightened up and gone with stupid posts for the most part :rolleyes:

do you read the posts?
The hassle was over RoyK being dinged for recalling that TiVo said something with a statement that it was never said.

When RoyK provided evidence it changed to "We were younger then" and "that was at a trade show in advance of release..."

Ok, I accept that. Moral - don't put any faith in what's said at a trade show.

I learned my lesson.

[ZeoTiVo]

do you read the posts?
The hassle was over RoyK being dinged for recalling that TiVo said something with a statement that it was never said.

When RoyK provided evidence it changed to "We were younger then" and "that was at a trade show in advance of release..."

Ok, I accept that. Moral - don't put any faith in what's said at a trade show.

I learned my lesson.

duh - at a trade show they are not dealing with the final product and it was verbal - it was indeed just talk.

anyhow your attitude in this thread is EXACTLY what is wrong with this forum. Could you please learn that lesson.

[ldobson]

No you shouldn't. That's why company's release press releases. Personally I wouldnt hold any one person at any company responsible for what may or may not happen with a product, especially in the Tech Industry. Having represented my Tech company at trade shows, I can not anticipate what may happen several months down the road, stuff happens, your suppliers fail you and specs/products change.

[RoyK]

duh - at a trade show they are not dealing with the final product and it was verbal - it was indeed just talk.

That's what I said. Apparently what is said at a trade show is just talk and not to be believed.

[ldobson]

On a positive note concerning the mock ups, it demonstrates that innovative ideas are still being produced by TiVo, but just not implemented ( yet? )

Yeah and it’s very easy to criticize a product when you don’t understand the technical requirements to put something like that in place. I honestly think that some folks on this forum think many of these things can be added in ten minutes.

Every piece of code has to be modified so it understands what a user profile is; database schemes have to be modified to track such things, not to mention any impact on other features which may need to be updated. That's just one feature.

And personally for the record I love some of the new features on the Premiere and cant wait to get mine.

[ZeoTiVo]

and not to be believed.

this is the part you have trouble with and exactly why TiVoPony is very unlikely to give people any more updates. He came here to help people with an issue on the HD UI and YOU just sucked the life right out of that help with something that has zero bearing on the help he was giving or the product.

YOU provided a specific example of why this forum has gone downhill so badly.

[nrc]

I'd be happy if tivo explained why they are not interested in things like hive scheduling, MRV streaming, DLNA and all the other great suggestions made here. Are they even aware of all the great suggestions from their customers?

The fact that those features aren't available at release doesn't mean that TiVo isn't interested. Why was TiVo "not interested" in web scheduling or MRV, or video downloads, or any of the many other features that have been added to TiVo DVRs after release?

We've seen a perfect example in this thread of why TiVo rarely talks about anything these days before it's on the shelf or available for download. TiVo could tell you today that they're working on all of those things and it would simply become something else for someone to pummel them with tomorrow. Why should anyone want to participate in a "community" where they have to put a three page "forward looking statements" disclaimer at the end of every post?

I do think TiVoPony overstates his case a bit. I think their reduced presence here is equal parts change in their own culture, change in the Internet culture, and change in the way this forum is managed. It's a shame.

[nrc]

this is the part you have trouble with and exactly why TiVoPony is very unlikely to give people any more updates. He came here to help people with an issue on the HD UI and YOU just sucked the life right out of that help with something that has zero bearing on the help he was giving or the product.

:up:

[matguy]

Off topic, but... what is hive scheduling?

Off topic response:
If I'm remembering it right (I hope I'm not getting the terminology mixed up) Hive Scheduling is where multiple Tivos act as a group and can share recording schedules. Instead of each Tivo having its own schedule to deal with conflicts on its own, a Tivo can ask another Tivo in the group if it has tuners available to record a show. This feature would become most evident on a Tivo that has a scheduling conflict where it has more simultanious shows than tuners (a dual tuner box with 3 shows to record at once, or a single with 2 shows to record at once), if it could operate as a Hive, then it could simply ask another Tivo with an idle tuner to record the show. If they're really cool, there's no technical reason I can think of that it couldn't even transfer the recording back to the Tivo that was originally scheduled to record the show, but again if it was really cool you might simply end up with a single master schedule and a single "Now Playing" list that converges all the recordings across all your Tivos in to one big list, so you wouldn't even care what Tivo was doing what (and as long as they were networked fast enough, it really wouldn't matter all that much.)

[NotVeryWitty]

this is the part you have trouble with and exactly why TiVoPony is very unlikely to give people any more updates. He came here to help people with an issue on the HD UI and YOU just sucked the life right out of that help with something that has zero bearing on the help he was giving or the product.

YOU provided a specific example of why this forum has gone downhill so badly.
Which came first, the chicken or the egg?

Are the Tivo representatives staying away because "the forum has gone downhill" and there is too much anti-Tivo sentiment, or is there too much anti-Tivo sentiment because the Tivo representatives have been staying away?

Perhaps it's a little of both, but IMO it's more the latter than the former.

In the six-plus years I've been around here, there have always been "fanboys" and "complainers". Some of them keep things reasonable, and some "cross the line" (into being unreasonable). IMO, neither you nor RoyK cross the line. You both press your cases, and don't back down easily, but neither one of you resort to name-calling and other socially-unacceptable behaviors.

I truly hope TivoPony will decide to start hanging out here more, like the good-old days. It will take some thick skin and some ear plugs, but ultimately I believe it is in Tivo's best interests.

[ZeoTiVo]

Perhaps it's a little of both, but IMO it's more the latter than the former.
so do you think what RoyK posted in this thread was acceptable? Was it helpful in any way to anyone but for RoyK to vent a rant?

- as an employee of a company would you stick around while people put you on a witness stand and bring up video from 3 or 4 years ago. Get real - this forum has jumped the shark and the only reason I click the link is for the few people left with useful info. I used to post useful things as well - but no more.

[BlackBetty]

The second I saw RoyK's name in this thread I knew there would be trouble.

[NotVeryWitty]

so do you think what RoyK posted in this thread was acceptable? Was it helpful in any way to anyone but for RoyK to vent a rant?
Yes, I did think it was acceptable. And Pony's response clarified Tivo's position on things: even if they show features in public, they make no commitment to ever deliver them. [Which is okay. It's their company, they can decide how they want to run it.]

Perhaps if Roy's analog tuner issues hadn't been completely ignored by Tivo for the last 18 months, he would be more likely to cut them a little slack on the Series 3 MCard issue...

[b3ar]

Perfectly worded IMO. I am happy to see Tivo employees here again. I just wonder where they were when developing the series 4. Faster MRV is about the only feature wished for here that is included in the premiere.

I'd be happy if tivo explained why they are not interested in things like hive scheduling, MRV streaming, DLNA and all the other great suggestions made here. Are they even aware of all the great suggestions from their customers?

TiVO owes "us" nothing but perhaps addressing these things might quiet the sour grapes feeling at TCF.


I won't hold my breath.:D


respectfully,
Ferrumpneuma
Not helpful.

[RoyK]

...
Perhaps if Roy's analog tuner issues hadn't been completely ignored by Tivo for the last 18 months, he would be more likely to cut them a little slack on the Series 3 MCard issue...

To be fair its only been 15 months.;)

[slowbiscuit]

I do think TiVoPony overstates his case a bit. I think their reduced presence here is equal parts change in their own culture, change in the Internet culture, and change in the way this forum is managed. It's a shame.
Well put, and I agree. I just think of the old saw, 'if you can't take the heat, get out of the kitchen' and we see what happened here. No one wants to hear their blood-sweat-and-tears products being bashed, or questions being raised about missing or buggy features.

And yet the good companies that survive manage to build on these criticisms and overcome them with products that people like, even after rough starts. I'm sure the Premiere will end up ok in the end, but we won't have a voice if we don't see anyone at Tivo care because they don't like the message.

Personal attacks are out of line, and I would put allegations of lying into that category. Not talking about anyone in this thread but about what the Tivo rep mentioned. But bailing because a few people get out of line is wrong - just ignore them.

Listen to us and provide reasoning on the decisions being made. Most of us will be reasonable in return.

[ldobson]

To be fair its only been 15 months.;)

Perhaps the problem is between the couch and the remote control?

[RoyK]

Perhaps the problem is between the couch and the remote control?
Cute. Not intelligent but cute.

[solutionsetc]

I think it is unfortunate that TiVo employees don't feel "welcome" here due to some of the anger and frustration that is present. I come from the mindset that all feedback from customers that continue to pay for your company's products and services (and especially those that have recently moved on), whether positive or negative, should be of value. If I were CEO, I think I would distill down the best and worst here, and make it required reading for me and everyone on down.

These are your customers man. And while the 200,000+ that are here may be a small percentage of your subscriber base, it represents those passionate enough about your product (for good or bad) to take the time to be here.

Now if you feel your current customer base is essentially EOL'd, and your company's focus is to abandon them for new markets, I can see where there may be little interest in this feedback. But if not, I would think the cross-section of user experiences here would be of significant value to any company; and a prime source for how to improve both your product and customer service.

As for name calling… I can't recall seeing any of it here. I see some condescending and rude behavior from time to time, but I do think the mod's should draw the line at name calling and utter disrespect.

[retired_guy]

[QUOTE=ZeoTiVo;I used to post useful things as well - but no more.[/QUOTE]

Don't do that; I remember many years ago I raged a bit about the poor performance I was getting with MRV and my S2s and you posted a link which indicated how one could use a wireless bridge to get optimal MRV performance. I followed your advice, in fact I'm on my second bridge solution now using "n" wireless, and have always been greatful for your useful post.

Rudeness on the net is a fact of life since people can say whatever they feel like saying without fear of significant retribution. I've felt that slap in the face a few times myself when I've posted naive comments. And those who are helpful to others, such as you've been, sometimes don't get the thanks they deserve.

So here's a note of appreciation, ZeoTiVo, for yourself and all the other posters like you, who've tried to post useful comments for new users and people with technical problems. You've made use of our TiVo's more enjoyable and we appreciate your efforts.

[NotVeryWitty]

So here's a note of appreciation, ZeoTiVo, for yourself and all the other posters like you, who've tried to post useful comments for new users and people with technical problems. You've made use of our TiVo's more enjoyable and we appreciate your efforts.
+1

I would also send the same "thanks" to RoyK. My cable company (Charter) continues to provide all of their enhanced basic channels on analog-only -- if I hadn't known about the analog tuner issues, I could have very well found myself in a whole mess of problems by upgrading my Series 2 boxes to TivoHDs. Since the common wisdom of this community is that the Premiere doesn't have the same issue (and the problems it *does* have don't sound like show-stoppers for me), I will probably be upgrading to Premieres in the near future.

[HiDefGator]

Well put, and I agree. I just think of the old saw, 'if you can't take the heat, get out of the kitchen' and we see what happened here. No one wants to hear their blood-sweat-and-tears products being bashed, or questions being raised about missing or buggy features.

what forum doesn't bash the covered products? no one goes to a forum to praise a product. if the Tivo employees can't take criticism then they should change careers.

[Stormspace]

...But I will share that this type of 'welcome' is exactly the reason you don't see much of the old TiVo gang online here anymore. Since dropping back in here I've had some words of encouragement, but it's also been asserted that I don't tell the truth, am not to be trusted, that I'm a 'marketing puke'...

Pony,

Good to see someone from TiVo posting here, but frankly I think this is a chicken and egg senario. Without information flowing out of TiVo about issues and TiVo's priorities in addressing them people become inflamed and feel that TiVo isn't listening. So, when someone does post it becomes a free-for-all pile on. If TiVo worked to educate and inform the forum members I think the attitude here would improve greatly, but hiding behind uninformed or poor CSR's isn't the way to be. What the TCF needs is more TiVo involvement, not less. Put a face on the company and people will react differently and if they don't we'll have to shout them down. :)

Also, I think everyone here would appreciate a status update on issues that appear to have gone on for over a year without being addressed in public. Perhaps what TiVo's stand on the CCI byte is, how they plan to address the dying MRV feature on legacy equipment (Due to the CCI Byte, Macrovision via Cable STB's), or any number of subjects posted here.

I came back about six months ago looking for answers and discovered no one knew anything about my issues and TiVo wasn't helping. Anyway, I don't intend this to be a rant, so I'm gonna quit for now and hope that TiVoites will step up and throw us a bone. :D

[Stormspace]

Off topic response:
If I'm remembering it right (I hope I'm not getting the terminology mixed up) Hive Scheduling is where multiple Tivos act as a group and can share recording schedules. Instead of each Tivo having its own schedule to deal with conflicts on its own, a Tivo can ask another Tivo in the group if it has tuners available to record a show.

I've heard of this referred to as cooperative scheduling(CS). This would be a great feature, but TiVo would have to come up with a viable way to use MRV in the new cable environment before it would be any good. Can you imagine having to run to random rooms everyday to watch a show since it couldn't be transferred? CSI in the Den this week, but in the Kids bedroom next week, or in the garage, or any number of other creative and fun places. CS would have been a great feature 4 years ago, now TiVo just needs to get MRV working again.

[mae]

Since dropping back in here I've had some words of encouragement, but it's also been asserted that I don't tell the truth, am not to be trusted, that I'm a 'marketing puke'...

Pony,

I've appreciated the efforts of the TiVo folks here since I first got my Sony S1 in 2000.

So here's some more encouragement to you and everyone else. No product (or person) is perfect.

This is a place we can work together to solve problems.

Mark

[ZeoTiVo]

Yes, I did think it was acceptable. And Pony's response clarified Tivo's position on things: even if they show features in public,

umm they never showed an Mcard working in a series 3 - in fact mcard was not even in actual production at that time. Cablelabs had not even certified it. It was a Qand A conversation, but then I am sure you have never misspoken in a business setting. How is that perfect DVR company of yours doing anyway?
If you want to back up such horrible forum manners as RoyK showed- at least do it with the actual facts instead of whatever you think it was.

[ZeoTiVo]

Personal attacks are out of line, and I would put allegations of lying into that category. Not talking about anyone in this thread but about what the Tivo rep mentioned. But bailing because a few people get out of line is wrong - just ignore them.

Listen to us and provide reasoning on the decisions being made. Most of us will be reasonable in return.

RoyK pretty much accused Pony of lying, and if this was the "what is happening to series 3 thread" then RoyK has his shot. This however was people with a probelm getting the HD UI to come up on their screen - TiVoPony was working with them on that SPECIFIC issue and giving them results.
So why is it OK to mess that all up and make sure that Tivo just goes back to being silent in this forum. face the reality that it is forum members that chased TiVo employees away - they wanted to be here and do useful things

PS - stormspace - so you think "marketing puke" is just some criticism anyone should take?

[RoyK]

RoyK pretty much accused Pony of lying, and if this was the "what is happening to series 3 thread" then RoyK has his shot. This however was people with a probelm getting the HD UI to come up on their screen - TiVoPony was working with them on that SPECIFIC issue and giving them results.
So why is it OK to mess that all up and make sure that Tivo just goes back to being silent in this forum. face the reality that it is forum members that chased TiVo employees away - they wanted to be here and do useful things

PS - stormspace - so you think "marketing puke" is just some criticism anyone should take?

First I know you didn't mean to imply that I used the disparaging term in your PS but to make it perfectly clear I didn't.

Lets get our facts straight Zeo. My first post in this thread didn't occur until it was discussing the fact that the Premier was released with one of it's processor cores disabled.

I agree the second core is probably being used at the os/hardware level.

I learned about the "inactive" second core from an interview with the TiVo guys at the announcement - -where some TiVo PR guy mentioned that the "second core is currently turned off due to stability issues" and that it would eventually be turned on with later updates.

To me this implies they expect a performance increase once they tune the software to parallel process against that second core.

Just like the Premier was released with one of its touted new features disabled and not working so was the last completely new product that TiVo released - the S3. The touted new feature was cablecard.

I recalled the interview with TiVoPony where he said -- with no qualifications whatever -- that the series 3 would do multiple tuners using "one multistream or two single stream" cards. In fact he repeated that same statement.

As you know that never happened.
Yup. Just like the capability to do 2 tuners on one M-Card on the S3 was to eventually be turned on with later updates. Oh, ... wait a minute...
To which Pony dinged me rather severely.
Actually Roy, that was never promised, and I posted that while technically feasible, it was not likely to happen - it involved big changes that could destabilize things.

If you're going to ding us, ding us for things we actually promised. ;)

Pony

The posting to which TiVoPony referred was made months after the S3 release if I recall correctly.

So I posted the link to the video of him saying exactly what he said.

I recall that posting being made after TiVo found it could not live up to the statement you made not once but twice in the video taken at CES 2006 (http://www.gearlive.com/index.php/news/article/ces-2006-video-tivo-series-3-video-interview-first-look-0108051437/) that the S3 would require one multistream card or two single stream cards.

To which he commented that he apologized if the statements made at a trade show influenced my buying decision. Funny, I always thought that the purpose of trade shows was precisely to influence buying decisions...(It didn't. I know better than to buy much of anything when its initially released.)


After which the discussion deteriorated into what comprises a 'promise' and that what marketing people say at a trade show should be taken with a grain of salt.

I accused NOBODY of lying.

And if that exchange was sufficient to drive the Director of Product Marketing of TiVo away from this forum then he has a VERY thin skin for someone in his position.

[Mike-Mike]

i think you all are liars.... ooooooooooh burn!

[Stormspace]

PS - stormspace - so you think "marketing puke" is just some criticism anyone should take?

Obsolutely not. This is not the place for personal attacks and name calling, but the bad behavior is fostered somewhat by the poor response TiVo has made and the general ignorance of forum members regarding S3/THD issues. Referring to someone as a Marketing Puke is just bad social behavior all around.

Even if the TCF is a small fraction of TiVo's customer base, I think it's safe the say that the members are the most vocal about the product. Ignoring us and the issues we raise is not smart business. So, while I think it's bad that TiVo representatives are being treated badly, I don't think they can afford to have thin skins and walking away will only make matters worse.

If TiVo doesn't do something what's going to happen is that the TCF being the one of the top search results is going to become a place prospective customers come to get turned off about the product, if it hasn't happened already.

[orangeboy]

Obsolutely not. This is not the place for personal attacks and name calling, but the bad behavior is fostered somewhat by the poor response TiVo has made and the general ignorance of forum members regarding S3/THD issues. Referring to someone as a Marketing Puke is just bad social behavior all around.

Even if the TCF is a small fraction of TiVo's customer base, I think it's safe the say that the members are the most vocal about the product. Ignoring us and the issues we raise is not smart business. So, while I think it's bad that TiVo representatives are being treated badly, I don't think they can afford to have thin skins and walking away will only make matters worse.

If TiVo doesn't do something what's going to happen is that the TCF being the one of the top search results is going to become a place prospective customers come to get turned off about the product, if it hasn't happened already.

Well put.

Maybe a new forum could be created that allows ONLY TiVo employees to post in (similar to the TC Club forum), updating current status of known or new bugs, and new feature highlights. Similarly, a stickied thread (or threads) in Premiere/Series3 forums for valid bug reports per platform or per software release, limited to descriptions and no editorializing (no "the Moxi can do this" or "Uverse DVRs do that" - those posts should go to the TiVo Suggestions forum). Editorialized threads could be reported as off-topic and routinely deleted by the moderators to prevent thread/topic drift. Such a construction would allow for civil communication between the users and TiVo corp...

[RoyK]

Maybe Tivo is taking a "if you don't have something nice to say don't say anything at all" policy.

What would the TCF reaction be to a TiVo employee(such as TiVoPony) posting about all the great progress they have made on advertisement delivery and fixing well documented years old bugs are not the priority?

I think you are seeing that now.

[Stormspace]

What would the TCF reaction be to a TiVo employee(such as TiVoPony) posting about all the great progress they have made on advertisement delivery and fixing well documented years old bugs are not the priority?

There could be truth in what you say. Sounds like a poll. "Would you drop TiVo if you discovered they prioritized delivering ads before bug fixes?"

I'm sure people would call it a loaded poll. :)

If that's the case TiVo needs a class action kick in the pants for letting some of these bugs last so long. I'm certain the value TiVo's customers have lost from these bugs is significant. 11g may solve many of them, but it's way late in coming.

[majortom]

I completely understand TiVoPony. Posters are allowed now adays to go so far off base here without so much as a hand slap. Dare speak up to the people going way off base........
...
snip
...
Ignore lists are no good when they get filled up daily or the TiVo reps decide to legitmately put the entire forum on their ignore lists.

My feelings exactly. From what I can tell, TiVo went off and built a new, more powerful system platform on which they can build several years of new functionality. Having watched many systems and software packages being developed, there comes a time when one ships what one has and then starts adding features incrementally in order to get some improvements into customers' hands, rather than forcing them to wait longer until all possible changes can be made.

[majortom]

And Pony's response clarified Tivo's position on things: even if they show features in public, they make no commitment to ever deliver them.

Given that MCards did not even exist at the time, it would have been impossible to have shown the feature. As part of an interview, Pony said what TiVo was hoping would be true that MCards, once they were certified by CableLabs and delivered by vendors would work in the Series 3. That was 9 months before the product shipped and almost 2 years before Mcards hit the streets. Unfortunately, due to issues beyond their control, that did not work out as they wished.

There is a big difference between that and what you described as "showing features in public" that seems to elude you.

[Stormspace]

I may be disagreeing with several of you, but the video Roy linked to clearly showed Pony talking about M cards. He didn't qualify any of his statements with an "M cards, when they become available". Anyone at that time watching the video would clearly get the impression that M cards worked with the S3 whether the standard was in use or not.

Maybe Pony misspoke, or like any marketing person he embellished the specs a little to make the product look better. I also don't recall any articles or videos where that statement was retracted, certainly not within the time frame of the show. It the misunderstanding was allowed to go for months before the retraction...

Did he lie? Maybe not, but he did just shoot his and TiVo's credibility to hell. You don't make claims about your product that aren't true and I think it's a well established fact that the S3 has never supported M cards. I imagine that Pony is embarrassed about the whole issue, I would be.

[HiDefGator]

Lets get our facts straight Zeo. My first post in this thread didn't occur until it was discussing the fact that the Premier was released with one of it's processor cores disabled.

I doubt the processor core is actually disabled. It might be more accurate to say the software has not been multi-threaded to make efficient use of the second core.

[RoyK]

I doubt the processor core is actually disabled. It might be more accurate to say the software has not been multi-threaded to make efficient use of the second core.

Apparently it is actually disabled.

Yes, the second core is not currently enabled. The software can take advantage of it, but it's not ready to release yet. Still, due to the architecture of that chip you don't get double the performance by enabling the second core, there are too many shared resources on the chip between the two cores. You do see a boost however.

Cheers,
Pony

[bkdtv]

Apparently it is actually disabled.
It is not clear exactly what that means. It's not clear whether the second core is disabled at the OS level or disabled at the application level (i.e. Adobe Stagecraft environment on which the HDUI runs).

[RoyK]

It is not clear exactly what that means. It's not clear whether the second core is disabled at the OS level or disabled at the application level (i.e. Adobe Stagecraft environment on which the HDUI runs).

Perhaps TiVo will clarify that point.

[RoyK]

Given that MCards did not even exist at the time, it would have been impossible to have shown the feature. ...

They most certainly did exist at that time. Motorola M-Cards received CableLabs qualification (http://www.cablelabs.com/news/newsletter/SPECS/MayJuneJuly_2006/story3.html) in the May-July 2006 timeframe. Scientific-Atlanta's M-Cards were qualified prior to that on March 22 2006.

The hardware certainly existed well prior to that and it isn't at all unreasonable to assume that TiVo had access to samples of that hardware.

The S3 began shipping sometime around Sep 2006. The first hint from TiVo that M-cards wouldn't be useable for multiple tuners that I could find was in April 2008 - about a year and a half after shipments began. The final "it ain't gonna happen" statement was in July 2008.

IOW if a feature isn't working at the time you purchase a TiVo (or any other item for that matter) then it isn't safe to assume that it ever will. Maybe. Maybe not.

[majortom]

They most certainly did exist at that time. Motorola M-Cards received CableLabs qualification (http://www.cablelabs.com/news/newsletter/SPECS/MayJuneJuly_2006/story3.html) in the May-July 2006 timeframe. Scientific-Atlanta's M-Cards were qualified prior to that on March 22 2006.

Actually, until they were certified by CableLabs, there were no m-cards. There may have been various prototype cards, but given CableLabs stringent requirements, I have no evidence that those were made available to anyone outside the process.

The hardware certainly existed well prior to that and it isn't at all unreasonable to assume that TiVo had access to samples of that hardware.

Because Motorola and Scientific Atlanta wanted to do what they could to help a competitor? They created these cards kicking and screaming. I see no evidence that they would provide anyone anything before they were forced to do so.

[ZeoTiVo]

after TiVo found it could not live up to the statement you made not once but twice

That isn't true as the video clip clearly shows.

I accused NOBODY of lying.


we could argue semantics or just let everyone look and decide for themselves.
Bottom line is that we had TiVoPony in a thread giving out some good info on the premiere and fixing problems. You were the one in this thread who sucked the life right out of that welcome participation with your horrible forum manners. Few were surprised by what you did.

[RoyK]

we could argue semantics or just let everyone look and decide for themselves.

Absolutely. The exchange in question begins at about posting #57 in this thread.

You will note that the first shot in the exchange between Pony and I was fired by him.


Bottom line is that we had TiVoPony in a thread giving out some good info on the premiere and fixing problems. You were the one in this thread who sucked the life right out of that welcome participation with your horrible forum manners. Few were surprised by what you did.

Bottom line is that TiVoPony was mistaken. I'm quite confident he didn't remember making that statement at the trade show. But the fact is that he did make it. He said to ding them for something they did and I obligingly pointed out that the ding was indeed for something they did.

That's not the same as saying he was lying. Mistaken yes. Lying - no.

Should I have done that? Debatable. But the topic under discussion was that Premier was released with one of its processor cores disabled. That is a very similar situation to the status of the S3 with respect to cable cards --in particular the M-card at its release.

It seems to be your position that it's bad manners to debate with TiVo reps when one disagrees with them or knows that they made an incorrect statement because doing otherwise might result in their not showing up here.

Sorry. I don't agree. Indeed because they represent their company when they come here they should be held to even higher standards of accuracy in their statements than the average Joe.

[bkdtv]

I just uploaded this demo of the Premiere's search (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N9GVPQOUO-g&hd=1) to Youtube. HD link should be good within 30 minutes.

[ZeoTiVo]

That's not the same as saying he was lying. Mistaken yes. Lying - no.

Should I have done that? Debatable. But the topic under discussion was that Premier was released with one of its processor cores disabled.

funny I do not see the word 'mistaken' - which would indeed have been the polite, more professional way to put it, I saw the words I quoted which were "that is not true" - given you already known hostility to TiVo in this forum which TiVoPony had likely already read (he does lurk you know) then the words you chose were indeed a challenge of his and TiVo Inc.s veracity and not the start of some 'debate'. You wanted to bitch and TiVoPony was a good target.

The topic was the premiere - you just saw an edge to get your off topic rant in and went for it regardless of consequences.

the consequence, despite your repeated rationalizations of your behavior is till the same. The discussion and help on the premiere that TiVoPony was engaged in had the life sucked out of it. You got to have your hissy fit, but it was at the cost of usefulness others were getting out of the thread - you should write down the word community and tape it to your monitor.

[RoyK]

funny I do not see the word 'mistaken' - which would indeed have been the polite, more professional way to put it, I saw the words I quoted which were "that is not true" - ....


Neither did you see the word lie or any variation thereof.

What you are saying is that I should have let the statement:
Actually Roy, that was never promised, and I posted that while technically feasible, it was not likely to happen - it involved big changes that could destabilize things.

If you're going to ding us, ding us for things we actually promised. ;)

Pony

Accusing me of a falsehood -- "that was never promised" -- go because Pony said it and heaven forbid we bruise his ego but when I responded in very similar terms "that was not true" then backed my statement up with proof it was a grievous breach of etiquette.

What's good for the goose here is good for the gander Zeo.

Feel free to continue your tirade against me. I will not respond further to you. Take all the cheap shots you wish.

[Adam1115]

Can you guys take the arguing offline so we can get back on topic?

Any updates on the original issue?

[innocentfreak]

The original issue has been fixed for awhile now. Apparently there were some units that weren't flagged to have the HDUI available. It has since been addressed and fixed from what I have read.

[sghrush]

I exchanged my Premier for a new one because of the video output always reverting back to auto detect 1080i. Well... that problem still persists with the new Premiere. However, I'm excited to say the new Premiere came with the HD UI turned on. Very cool.

[rainwater]

I exchanged my Premier for a new one because of the video output always reverting back to auto detect 1080i. Well... that problem still persists with the new Premiere. However, I'm excited to say the new Premiere came with the HD UI turned on. Very cool.

Have you tried turning off auto-detect and only selecting a single output mode?

[sghrush]

Have you tried turning off auto-detect and only selecting a single output mode?

I am always turning the auto detect off but somehow it keeps turning back on and selecting only 1080i. The auto detect does not appear to be fully functional, because if it was, it would automatically detect all resolutions since that is what my TV supports.

[bleeman]

I had to turn auto detect off because our unit kept detecting only 720p. Fortunately, once I turned it off and set it to 1080i it has held and I haven't had to make any additional changes.

As a matter of fact, this very issue was one of the reasons, my system kept hanging during the original setup. It would detect 720p, I would override it and then setup would hang on the Zip Code entry screen.

I spoke with Tivo support and they suggested that I take all the defaults and then make my adjustments afterwards and that let me get through the initial setup.

[sghrush]

I had to turn auto detect off because our unit kept detecting only 720p. Fortunately, once I turned it off and set it to 1080i it has held and I haven't had to make any additional changes.

As a matter of fact, this very issue was one of the reasons, my system kept hanging during the original setup. It would detect 720p, I would override it and then setup would hang on the Zip Code entry screen.

I spoke with Tivo support and they suggested that I take all the defaults and then make my adjustments afterwards and that let me get through the initial setup.

Perhaps auto detect should be removed and replaced with "native" like in the Tivo HD. Maybe that would solve it? I never had problems with the Tivo HD.

[bkdtv]

Perhaps auto detect should be removed and replaced with "native" like in the Tivo HD. Maybe that would solve it? I never had problems with the Tivo HD.Autodetect is the supposed to replace the fixed setting. Autodetect always uses one format.

Manually checking all formats is the substitute for native display.

[sghrush]

Autodetect is the supposed to replace the fixed setting. Autodetect always uses one format.

Manually checking all formats is the substitute for native display.

I know one must check all resolutions for native. I just wish they would stick. Why does auto detect not detect all of the TV's capable resolutions?

[Syzygy]

... If TiVo doesn't do something, what's going to happen is that the TCF (being the one of the top search results) is going to become a place prospective customers come to get turned off about the product, if it hasn't happened already.
I'm a TiVo early adopter (1999) who at one time thought TiVo could not do anything wrong (well, hardly anything ;)).

I came to this subforum (TiVo Premiere DVRs) to see how well the Premiere was being accepted, and I did "get turned off about the product." Granted, I was not "hot to trot" with the Premiere, because I think Comcast's PQ suffers by comparison to that of my current provider, DirecTV. But it was the great number of bugs and even design deficiencies I read about or saw in the videos that firmly turned me against the Premiere.

I am well known at DBSTalk as a prolific lister of the more than 50 apparently permanent problems with DirecTV's HR2x series (and of the 5 or so problems that remain with the no-longer-updated DirecTiVo). I was looking at the Premiere as a possible escape path from the HR2x — but no more. I'll go back to waiting for the elusive MPEG-4 DirecTiVo to make its belated appearance, hoping that TiVo will (1) actually produce it and (2) keep the initial bugs down to an acceptable number.