3D-Ready?

[dswallow]

What's the official word on 3D video compatibility with the Premiere units? Are there any gotchas expected? The 1080p output obviously is necessary but are they supporting the necessary frame rates expected on 3D video channels? Any issues with the HDMI interface with regard to how any extra info is sent to the TV to drive IR output controlling LCD glasses?

Is TiVo willing to "guarantee" compatibility? Is there currently any certification for these standards that TiVo will submit their equipment for review?

[MikeMar]

I know from a pure technology standpoint that they are making sure whatever 3D standard they finalize on will work over current HDMI cables and setups.

So I'd imagine that a 1080P HDMI ready device would be able to do this no problem. .

[AbMagFab]

What's the official word on 3D video compatibility with the Premiere units? Are there any gotchas expected? The 1080p output obviously is necessary but are they supporting the necessary frame rates expected on 3D video channels? Any issues with the HDMI interface with regard to how any extra info is sent to the TV to drive IR output controlling LCD glasses?

Is TiVo willing to "guarantee" compatibility? Is there currently any certification for these standards that TiVo will submit their equipment for review?

3D is sort of backwards compatible with anything that can produce 1080p/60 or 1080p/48. However you'll get a far reduced resolution.

The better 3D requires (at least) 1080p/120 at the *source*, which the new Tivo's don't have. And frankly, only the new 3D TVs accept this as an input - all the current 120Mhz models just upconvert a <120Hz signal to >=120Hz, but that's not the same thing at all.

And I'm not even sure the new Tivo's can support better than 1080p/30, and if they don't, there's no chance for 3D at all.

Anyway, we'll be on a Series 6 by the time 3D is any sort of reality. ESPN-3D doesn't actually have to do anything, since there's not a place in the world (except Disney) that will be able to actually transmit this to homes and not a receiver in the world to record/play it.

[bilbo]

I would be surprised if Tivo DOESN'T come out with a Full HD 3D DirecTivo before the end of the year.

Extending that Technology to the Premiere wouldn't be that hard IMHO. Tivo could probably sell a 3D Premier for around $1,000. If I bought a 50" to 58" Panasonic 3D Plasma (for somewhere between $2,000 to $3,000?), I would be willing to pay four figures for a 3D Tivo, also. I don't know if I would switch my "cable" television from Verizon FiOS to DirecTV satellite television service, seeing as I already have two Series 3. I'm not Daddy Warbucks (I know a 65" 3D TV is out of my reach for over $4,000, and possibly closer to $5,000). What Tivo does may make my going 3D a no go this year; the only good reason to get it is for the World Cup (and possibly for the novelty of it since it may not take off -- at least for broadcast television).

By the way, how the heck can Best Buy be selling a 3D Panasonic television next Wednesday, March 10th (less than a week from now), and Panasonic hasn't even announced its pricing for its 3D sets? Am I the only one who thinks that's cutting it a little close.

http://www.directv.com/DTVAPP/global/article.jsp?assetId=P6600006

http://news.cnet.com/8301-17938_105-10463388-1.html

http://www.bestbuy.com/site/Televisions/regularCat:pcmcat205800050000/pcmcat205800050000.c?id=pcmcat205800050000

[MikeMar]

A lot of TVs sold in the past year or so are 3D ready

There are many flavors of 3D that they are working on and the type with half-rez is simple to do, and the type with only a 40% overhead which works on current HDMI and the latest TVs is almost ready.

So if you bought a new high end TV last month, it's just as 3D ready as the ones coming out next week.

[AbMagFab]

A lot of TVs sold in the past year or so are 3D ready

There are many flavors of 3D that they are working on and the type with half-rez is simple to do, and the type with only a 40% overhead which works on current HDMI and the latest TVs is almost ready.

So if you bought a new high end TV last month, it's just as 3D ready as the ones coming out next week.

That's only true for TVs that accept 1080p/60 natively, and you'll get lousy image quality (half rez at best). Real 3D requires 1080p/120 *native input*, not upscaling. There are few-to-none that do that today.

And a 3D ready TV is useless without a 3D source. Just like HD.

There are *exactly ZERO* 3D sources available today (not counting proprietary PC-based solutions).

The question was whether the new Tivo Premiere could support 3D. And unless it can spit out 1080p/60 natively (not 1080p/30 doubled), then it can't support even the low-rez 3D. Period.

[NJChris]

A lot of TVs sold in the past year or so are 3D ready

There are many flavors of 3D that they are working on and the type with half-rez is simple to do, and the type with only a 40% overhead which works on current HDMI and the latest TVs is almost ready.

So if you bought a new high end TV last month, it's just as 3D ready as the ones coming out next week.
That's not necessarily true. The HDMI standard I thought will be 1.4 and won't include a checkerboard 3d format, which the Mitsubishi DLP tvs have had for a couple years. Although Mitsubishi is going to sell a converter box, current 3d ready tv's may not work.

Most of the 3d ready tv's were ready for COMPUTERS to be hooked up and use it.

[bschuler2007]

According to CNET, Premiere is HDMI 1.3 out. I was bummed when I saw that myself as it does mean no 3D Blu-ray rips for me if I stick with Tivo.

[AbMagFab]

According to CNET, Premiere is HDMI 1.3 out. I was bummed when I saw that myself as it does mean no 3D Blu-ray rips for me if I stick with Tivo.

Just use a media player for 3D.

And HDMI 1.3 just means no full 3D, you can still get reduced rez 3D if the device does 60p natively, but I don't think the Tivo Premiere does even that.

It's really a Tivo Series 3.05.

[dswallow]

Kinda makes me wonder where TiVo was during CES, considering CES seemed to be about 3D flatscreens this year. I'm certainly used to being on the bleeding edge and getting burned because of it. But with such industry-wide momentum on 3D and a couple full-time channel announcements, carriage by at least DirecTV, likelihood of other cable-carried channels offering at least a few hours regularly, and the sheer across-the-board support the 3D standards have received from every flat panel manufacturer... you'd think someone at TiVo might've had a lightbulb go off that their hardware refresh that can't have been in the works longer than the 3D push was known, should be capable of supporting it, even if the software coming with it at first didn't enable everything needed.

Just some sign that they were looking ahead even 6 months would be nice.

[JimboG]

ESPN 3D is supposed to launch this summer. 3D channels / programming from Discovery and Sony should be available before year end on DirecTV. Will the new HD DirecTivo support these new 3D channels, or will the new DirecTivo be obsolete from day one?

We already know that the new DirecTivo won't get the pretty new Flash GUI. We have to wonder whether ESPN 3D will launch before the new DirecTivo and if you can watch 3D content on the new device.

I could see a fair number of early adopters going with a DirecTV DVR that supports 3D rather than a Tivo device that doesn't support 3D. The cable market may take quite a while to roll out 3D service, but DirecTV should have a fair bit of 3D content available nationwide by the end of the year.

[AbMagFab]

We know for sure it's HDMI 1.3, right? That means it's not capable of "real" 3D.

What we don't know is if it can do more than 1080p/30. If it can't, it can't do any 3D.

[NJChris]

We know for sure it's HDMI 1.3, right? That means it's not capable of "real" 3D.

What we don't know is if it can do more than 1080p/30. If it can't, it can't do any 3D.
Isnt the Playstation 3 just 1.3, yet they will be releasing a firmware update to be used for 3d.

I don't know if the new Tivo can output the correct format or has the horsepower for it even with an update.

Just because a channel might transmits 3d, doesnt mean the device that receiving it (Tivo) can send it out correctly.

[dswallow]

The PlayStation 3 will get Stereoscopic 3D features from HDMI 1.4 specifications with just a software update. Adding all the new features introduced with 1.4 specifications of HDMI is not possible with just a software update... but the S3D stuff is what's primarily important.

Stereoscopic 3D support can be offered so most 3D-ready TV's should be able to understand that the console is sending them 3D content and display it accordingly. The TV sets just need to be HDMI 1.4 or at least have their software updated so that the HDMI 1.3 hardware will be able to understand the Stereoscopic 3D part of 1.4 specifications.

[AbMagFab]

Isnt the Playstation 3 just 1.3, yet they will be releasing a firmware update to be used for 3d.

I don't know if the new Tivo can output the correct format or has the horsepower for it even with an update.

Just because a channel might transmits 3d, doesnt mean the device that receiving it (Tivo) can send it out correctly.

That's been my whole point...

[lvthunder]

Isn't there a New York Rangers hockey game on MSG in 3D tomorrow? If the cablevision STB's can do it I would hope this new box would.

[MikeMar]

You can do 1/2 rez 3d right now, I think majority of recent tv's can handle that, so that may be it.

[ItsRounder]

I just saw a demo of the 50" Panasonic VT20 3D plasma TV and was amazed by how good it looked. Granted it was running off of Blu-ray but now that I think I'll be buying this in a 54" version I'm even more curious about how the Premiere will handle 3D broadcasts. The World Cup is just around the corner.

[AbMagFab]

I just saw a demo of the 50" Panasonic VT20 3D plasma TV and was amazed by how good it looked. Granted it was running off of Blu-ray but now that I think I'll be buying this in a 54" version I'm even more curious about how the Premiere will handle 3D broadcasts. The World Cup is just around the corner.

At best it will be 1/2 rez 3D. It doesn't have HDMI 1.4, which is required for the real 3D.

Sorry.

[NJChris]

I just read on the AVS forums that the broadcast 3d standard is 1080i and the TiVo S3/HD/Premiere can pass that through for the 3d tv's to use. There's nothing required from the TiVo to do.

Hopefully that's accurate.

[Goldwing2001]

I just read on the AVS forums that the broadcast 3d standard is 1080i and the TiVo S3/HD/Premiere can pass that through for the 3d tv's to use. There's nothing required from the TiVo to do.

Hopefully that's accurate.

The TiVo Premiere uses HDMI 1.3, doesn't 3D require HDMI 1.4?

[jmpage2]

The TiVo Premiere uses HDMI 1.3, doesn't 3D require HDMI 1.4?

There are ways to do a pseudo 3D through HDMI. "True" 3D requires HDMI 1.4.

Then again, I think 3D is a bunch of overblown hogwash. :)

[lessd]

The TiVo Premiere uses HDMI 1.3, doesn't 3D require HDMI 1.4?

My limited understanding is that 3D will come in two forms 1/2 resolution that the TiVo/normal cable box will pass into a 3DHDTV, when set on 3D mode you will get 540 frames for the left lens than 540 frames for the right lens. True 3D will have 1080 for each side, that will take HDMI1.4 to pass, the source will be BD for sure, I don't know about the cable cos. as they may have to upgrade their own cable boxes (and head end) to deliver full 3D VIA HDMI 1.4. For OTA, I think, will be limited to 1/2 res for 3D if they go that way at all.

[matguy]

... Then again, I think 3D is a bunch of overblown hogwash. :)

Ditto for me... but I may be biased... to the left, my right eye doesn't work worth a crap.

[b3ar]

People need to keep in mind that there will be two major "branches" of home 3D, and then behind the scenes, there will be a lot of technology-specific implementation issues. Since TiVo is geared for broadcast satellite, that will usually mean having to force-fit the 3D signal through the existing infrastructure in the sky and at the head-ends before it ever makes it down the wire to your home for TiVo to do anything with it. This means that any home 3D is going to have to live with bandwidth limitations geared for 1080i30 (1080i60 to normal people) channels and either do channel bonding (can't foresee any issues there at all) or the resolution is going to be cut in half. When I was at CES, I didn't make it over to the ESPN/Disney booth to talk to them about the underlying distribution technology, but do feel certain that we are not going to be on the cusp of 1080p120 coming to us over the airwaves (or cable lines) any time soon with cheap or well-debugged hardware. Packaged media will be easier, but it will require buying new hardware almost assuredly.

Given TiVo's product lifecycles, I can't imagine we will see new hardware from them in this space for another 2 - 3 years (D* being a different issue). The S3 was released in what, 2006?

[ItsRounder]

Save your money: You don't need fancy "HDMI 1.4" cables for 3D TV- http://blogs.consumerreports.org/electronics/2010/03/3d-tv-hdmi-41-cables-sales-not-necessary-regular-basic-hdmi-tv-bluray-player.html

But contrary to what you may have read or been told, you don't need special "HDMI 1.4 cables," and frankly you shouldn't be able to buy one, because cable manufacturers are prohibited from marketing cables as such. Instead, cable marketers must label their cables using one of five new logos: HDMI Standard, HDMI High Speed, HDMI Standard with Ethernet, HDMI High Speed with Ethernet, and HDMI Standard Automotive.

If you want to connect a new 3D Blu-ray player to a new 3D TV, you'll just need a high-speed HDMI cable, which is already recommended for connecting 1080p TVs and Blu-ray players. (HDMI Standard cables are generally sufficient for handling video with up to 720p or 1080i resolutions.) And you don't have to pay a lot to get a good high-speed HDMI cable: You can buy a 6-foot cable for less than $10 from an online retailer such as Monoprice.com or Blue Jeans Cable.

So until there are new TVs or Blu-ray players that will let you combine audio/video and Internet connections via a single cable—which will require a High Speed with Ethernet cable—most of us can use the HDMI cables we already own to connect our new 3D gear. And don't let anyone tell you—or sell you—otherwise.


http://www.hdmi.org/manufacturer/hdmi_1_4/3d.aspx

All High Speed HDMI cables will support 3D when connected to 3D devices. You can use your existing High Speed HDMI cables or choose a different cable type.

[AbMagFab]

Save your money: You don't need fancy "HDMI 1.4" cables for 3D TV- http://blogs.consumerreports.org/electronics/2010/03/3d-tv-hdmi-41-cables-sales-not-necessary-regular-basic-hdmi-tv-bluray-player.html




http://www.hdmi.org/manufacturer/hdmi_1_4/3d.aspx

People aren't talking cables, they're talking the spec for the HDMI ports (on both sides).

The Tivo has HDMI 1.3, which means it's not capable of sending full-rez HD 3D. There's no way around that.

[lessd]

People aren't talking cables, they're talking the spec for the HDMI ports (on both sides).

The Tivo has HDMI 1.3, which means it's not capable of sending full-rez HD 3D. There's no way around that.

There not much out there that can handle HDMI 1.4 yet, Only about 4 BD players that handle HDMI 1.4 and they need two HDMI outputs (1.3 & 1.4) as most audio HDMI controllers don't do HDMI 1.4 yet. From what i think I know is that you can't plug a HDMI 1.4 into anything that was designed for HDMI 1.3 as the handshake will not work; copy protection again screwing things up.
By the time HD 3D TV becomes mainstream (if ever) TiVo (I think) will have new hardware that will handle HDMI 1.4.

[turbobozz]

By the time HD 3D TV becomes mainstream (if ever) TiVo (I think) will have new hardware that will handle HDMI 1.4.

... likely hinging on when Broadcom makes the STB cpu that handles it.

[NJChris]

There not much out there that can handle HDMI 1.4 yet, Only about 4 BD players that handle HDMI 1.4 and they need two HDMI outputs (1.3 & 1.4) as most audio HDMI controllers don't do HDMI 1.4 yet. From what i think I know is that you can't plug a HDMI 1.4 into anything that was designed for HDMI 1.3 as the handshake will not work; copy protection again screwing things up.
By the time HD 3D TV becomes mainstream (if ever) TiVo (I think) will have new hardware that will handle HDMI 1.4.

Why would the Tivo need new hardware (for this)? Unless it's going for 1080p 3d, the broadcast 3d has a lesser bandwidth need and should work with 1.3 from what I understand. It can still pass through the channels that have 3d (if/when/whatever) to the TV which will then do what it needs to for 3d.

I also thought the reason the new 3d BD players with 1.4 HDMI ports have a second HDMI port is so one can go to a stereo, which cannot pass through the bandwidth used for 3d video in 1.4. So one goes to the TV and one hdmi cable to the stereo. 1.4 can handle 1.3 data, but not the reverse (which make sense and probably what you are saying anyway, so I'm just babbling at this point.)

[jmpage2]

Why would the Tivo need new hardware (for this)? Unless it's going for 1080p 3d, the broadcast 3d has a lesser bandwidth need and should work with 1.3 from what I understand. It can still pass through the channels that have 3d (if/when/whatever) to the TV which will then do what it needs to for 3d.

I also thought the reason the new 3d BD players with 1.4 HDMI ports have a second HDMI port is so one can go to a stereo, which cannot pass through the bandwidth used for 3d video in 1.4. So one goes to the TV and one hdmi cable to the stereo. 1.4 can handle 1.3 data, but not the reverse (which make sense and probably what you are saying anyway, so I'm just babbling at this point.)

I think you might misunderstand. "True" 3D at 1080P resolutions requires sending separate information signals for your left and right eye, which together add up to more bandwidth than is capable on a 1080P link.

So, you can get 1/2 resolution 3D with HDMI 1.3 or you can get full resolution 3D with HDMI 1.4, a compatible player, TV, shutter glasses, etc.

[bdraw]

At best it will be 1/2 rez 3D.

This is a very half empty perspective. The FACT is that frame compatible 3D has the exact same amount of information as 2D HD. They are not reducing the amount of data to the brain. Sure it would be better if they doubled it, but the 3D effect is a more notable improvement to consumers than doubling the pixel count.


It doesn't have HDMI 1.4, which is required for the real 3D.


The best quality 3D sources available is 3D Blu-ray which is 1080p 24 per eye. This is roughly the equivalent of 1080p48, which is LESS data than 1080p60, so yeah HDMI 1.3 has more than enough bandwidth.

Saying your device is HDMI 1.4 means it definitely supports 3D (as well as other features), but that does NOT mean that a TiVo with HDMI 1.3 does not support full HD 3D.

Bottom line is the that frame compatible 3D will work on the TiVo, but probably not full HD 3D, just not because it isn't HDMI 1.4. Full 3D HD via cable hasn't even been spec'd yet, but it'll probably be H.264 using the new Multiview Video Coding codec, which I doubt the TiVo Premier will ever support.

[Jonathan_S]

I think you might misunderstand. "True" 3D at 1080P resolutions requires sending separate information signals for your left and right eye, which together add up to more bandwidth than is capable on a 1080P link.

So, you can get 1/2 resolution 3D with HDMI 1.3 or you can get full resolution 3D with HDMI 1.4, a compatible player, TV, shutter glasses, etc.
I thought I'd read somewhere that since HDMI 1.3 has enough bandwidth for 2D 1080p60 that 3D 1080p24 movies would also work (assuming the TV was designed to process input format; but bandwidth wise it would work as "1080p48 equiv" is less than 1080p60).

(In that case it should be half the resolution or half the framerate)