OS / UI based on Flash good idea?

[hoyty]

After all the recent problems with Flash being dropped on mobile platforms and massive security holes is it really a good idea to base your entire OS / UI on Flash? I mean will someone be able to produce an app with security holes that can be exploited due to flash?

From Charlie Miller, the Pwn2Own contest winner for two years in a row (http://www.f-secure.com/weblog/archives/00001896.html)
"The main thing is not to install Flash!"

[SnakeEyes]

Flash will be dead in a couple years. HTML5 FTW!

[Riverdome]

Flash will be dead in a couple years. HTML5 FTW!

Define couple? 5 - NO 10 - maybe

[MickeS]

I don't think it matters what the OS runs on as long as it works. And allows hackers to figure out how to upgrade drives. :)

[GISJason420]

I don't think it really matters as there will always be someone that'll dump the contents of a TSOP in virtually any device to make their own custom changes and whatever they're trying to achieve but certainly this cannot be done for everything as some devices have really really good protection schemes as well checks the device runs before executing a TSOP that's been flashed with custom firmware or whatever! This is one of my hobbies :D

[wmcbrine]

They have a chip that does Flash in hardware, so it makes sense to use it.

Just having Flash in the system doesn't expose the TiVo to security flaws. For that to be an issue, the TiVo also has to access unvalidated Flash from the Internet. Currently, there's no reason to expect that this will be allowed -- the Flash is just used internally to render the interface, while the external interfaces (as far as I've seen so far) are still HME/HMO.

[sbessel]

I would have to say this is a deal breaker for me... I am boycotting Adobe. I am not at all happy with their complete and total lack of 64bit support for IE, as well as iPhone, not to mention their horrible or non-existent upgrade policies for their software.

I refuse to give them any of my money...

Problem is, I do love my TiVo’s so I would hope for a software update in the future that would allow me to jump to the new units.

[Riverdome]

I would have to say this is a deal breaker for me... I am boycotting Adobe. I am not at all happy with their complete and total lack of 64bit support for IE, as well as iPhone, not to mention their horrible or non-existent upgrade policies for their software.

I refuse to give them any of my money...

Problem is, I do love my TiVo’s so I would hope for a software update in the future that would allow me to jump to the new units.

How/When did Adobe lack support for iPhone - that is an Apple decision, especially on the iPad which has MORE than enough power to run Flash.

IE64 - agree that it should be there but since IE32 is included and it works why the rush to make the 64-bit work?

64-bit is nice for the hobby PC user who wants 4+ GB of RAM but it's not wide spread enough to justify spending lots of money of development. Ask Cisco Systems one of the world's largest IT companies. They have a VPN client that won't work in a 64-bit environment.

[MichaelK]

After all the recent problems with Flash being dropped on mobile platforms and massive security holes is it really a good idea to base your entire OS / UI on Flash? I mean will someone be able to produce an app with security holes that can be exploited due to flash?

From Charlie Miller, the Pwn2Own contest winner for two years in a row (http://www.f-secure.com/weblog/archives/00001896.html)
"The main thing is not to install Flash!"

security wholes = bad

but I thouth flash 10.1 was getting ADDED to all sorts of mobile platforms? (well everyone except apple).

Android, winmo 7, palm webos, nokia smartphones, blackberry. Isn't that pretty much all the big guns except steve jobs?

Anyway as said below- kind of doesn't matter for tivo. It's just some internal thing- who cares if they write the tivo app in BASIC if it works?

[bkdtv]

security wholes = bad

but I thouth flash 10.1 was getting ADDED to all sorts of mobile platforms? (well everyone except apple).It is.

The problem with Flash is the it's too resource intensive without dedicated hardware acceleration. The manufacturers of ICs used in mobile devices are working with Adobe to implement hardware acceleration for Flash. Beta drivers with Flash acceleration have been available for months, but we are now starting to see the final versions of those drivers.

As these drivers become available, you'll see many popular mobile devices add Flash support with software updates.

[mattack]

BTW, what is the current (TivoHD/S3) UI written in? I had thought that was already Flash. It's definitely "different" than the Series 1 UI.. hard to describe, but maybe it's just the various things (like watching lists draw while populating) that made me think it was higher level scripting than (presumably) hand-coded UI in the S1.

[JimboG]

In my opinion, Flash is one of the most pervasive, wide-spread viruses out there. I can't count the number of times that Flash has been responsible for bringing my system to a crawl or crashing IE, Firefox, or Chrome.

For simple video distribution, H.264 is a far superior choice.

That said, the new Tivo GUI looks awful purty. I still would have to embrace the evil that is Adobe Flash if I bought the new Tivo for the HD GUI though.:mad:

[bkdtv]

BTW, what is the current (TivoHD/S3) UI written in? I had thought that was already Flash. It's definitely "different" than the Series 1 UI.. hard to describe, but maybe it's just the various things (like watching lists draw while populating) that made me think it was higher level scripting than (presumably) hand-coded UI in the S1.The TiVoHD/S3 software is written mostly in C, as far as I know.

In my opinion, Flash is one of the most pervasive, wide-spread viruses out there. I can't count the number of times that Flash has been responsible for bringing my system to a crawl or crashing IE, Firefox, or Chrome.Hence the importantace of a hardware acceleration for Flash.

You would not see Flash on TiVo or any other set-top without such acceleration. It would be too slow otherwise, given the general purpose computing power in these boxes.

[TWinbrook46636]

And yet the video of the new HDUI over at Engadget is just as slow as the TiVo Search Beta... :down:

[bkdtv]

And yet the video of the new HDUI over at Engadget is just as slow as the TiVo Search Beta... :down:I wouldn't read too much into that. The TiVo Premiere is coming in April for a reason; the software isn't finalized. The software shown today pulls most of its graphics from their servers, so any network congestion (as existed during the demo) kills responsiveness. The final version will undoubtedly cache more of those graphics locally so the UI isn't stuck waiting for them to download.

[rtmoore4]

I wouldn't read too much into that. The TiVo Premiere is coming in April for a reason; the software isn't finalized. The software shown today pulls most of its graphics from their servers, so any network congestion (as existed during the demo) kills responsiveness. The final version will undoubtedly cache more of those graphics locally so the UI isn't stuck waiting for them to download.

And yet you would think they would have tested this before the big "inventing the DVR was just a warmup" press release and someone would have said, "you know, I'm growing old waiting for this page to update, I wonder if our customers will notice?" Sorry, but if you're going to put this kind of thing together, you put the dam server in the room and connect it at Gigabit, so it's lightning fast. You don't run across some wireless link that all the bloggers in the room are using for their tweets and whatnot as well.

[Sevenfeet]

Here's the problem Tivo likely faced in updating the UI. The Tivo interface as we know it dates back to 1998. It was designed to be small, efficient and good enough to operate on very limited hardware resources. But over time, it didn't scale well to the demands of a 21st century DVR platform. That requires a much more flexible programming API that allows developers easy access while maintaining overall performance. Tivo could have designed their own, but Tivo is still a small company after all these years and doesn't have the resources of a Apple, Microsoft or anyone else. Also, previous efforts to open up the Tivo system to developers (HME) only yielded a limited number of apps.

Flash in a bit controversial since Adobe is now in a battle royale against Apple and Microsoft for web standards. But there are many benefits for Tivo. First, it's a very known quantity that has already been ported to Unix/Linux. Second, creating interfaces (something Tivo owners would recognize yet be modern) is pretty easy in Flash. Third, the set of tools necessary to create Flash interfaces and animation is very robust and mature. Lastly, there are a TON of Flash developers already out there. That makes it a lot easier to attract third party developers to write apps for Series 4 Tivos.

There are some downsides. The hardware requirements are much more steep than previous Tivos but the cost of raw horsepower is pretty cheap these days. Also, Flash isn't competing with a user trying to do other things in a set top box...as long as there is enough resources to run the database, Tivo engine and system functions, then you're OK. But of course even if you wanted to upgrade the older S3 boxes to a like interface, that would be impossible given their hardware constraints.

In the end, will all this be enough? Many of us (including critics) have serious doubts. Tivo pioneered this product and has the patent portfolio that they have successfully defended. And frankly, Internet-based content isn't deep enough for me to satisfy the demands of my kids who expect The Wiggles, My Friends Tigger and Pooh, Sesame Street and other programming to magically show up every day without fail. But the hardware profile and the scope of the Series 4 is underwhelming by just about everyone that has reported on it. No multi-room DVR approach like Moxi. The app strategy had few if any partners at launch (past what was already available). The hardware is still expensive and monthly fees are tough to justify in a recession when people are trying to cut back one more utility bill. Tivo still has some good cards in its hand. Their brand name is still king. Most people outside this forum still don't know what Moxi is (the fact that Moxi hasn't broken through with significant market share or any partners is damning to them). And there are still cable and sat partnerships supposidly in the works.

Will I upgrade? I dunno. My older S3s (in the $800 days) are still working well. Frankly, there are more important things for me to spend money on right now. But the fact that this doesn't seem like a "gotta have" moment for someone like me (first Tivo purchased 7/11/99) is a big problem for Tivo, Inc.

[tivogurl]

How are they going to get Flash to perform? It is well known that Flash is slow as molasses on Linux, or any other platform not named Windows, and that Adobe will not fix any performance issue on platforms other than Windows. I doubt the slowness we see is the network. Why are any basic UI elements being downloaded? They should be preinstalled on the box. I think we're seeing the basic slowness of Adobe's Linux implementation.

[MichaelK]

apparently the chip does flash IN hardware.

the one video i had the time to watch showed the screen drawing quickly with the 'drawn' elements but a pause while the photos of the cast popped in. One of the blogs commented that tivo said they are still trying to decide exactly how much to cache on the tivo.

Do you cache no pictures and save room on the drive but slow things down, or so you cache every picture of every actor and every 'coverart' for every last item in the database and eat up a pile of hard drive space and bandwidth downloading it all in advance but speed everything up, or do you try to find a subset that works best?

[eja]

I'm sure the key for TiVo is that it will be trivial for them to now pepper the interface with Flash-based advertising. Advertising on the previous generation systems was really limited due to the software and hardware, but Flash is something advertisers are already very familiar with, and TiVo can sell space for ads with animations, video, and sound absolutely anywhere in the UI.

[MickeS]

Here's the problem Tivo likely faced in updating the UI. The Tivo interface as we know it dates back to 1998. It was designed to be small, efficient and good enough to operate on very limited hardware resources. But over time, it didn't scale well to the demands of a 21st century DVR platform. That requires a much more flexible programming API that allows developers easy access while maintaining overall performance. Tivo could have designed their own, but Tivo is still a small company after all these years and doesn't have the resources of a Apple, Microsoft or anyone else. Also, previous efforts to open up the Tivo system to developers (HME) only yielded a limited number of apps.

Flash in a bit controversial since Adobe is now in a battle royale against Apple and Microsoft for web standards. But there are many benefits for Tivo. First, it's a very known quantity that has already been ported to Unix/Linux. Second, creating interfaces (something Tivo owners would recognize yet be modern) is pretty easy in Flash. Third, the set of tools necessary to create Flash interfaces and animation is very robust and mature. Lastly, there are a TON of Flash developers already out there. That makes it a lot easier to attract third party developers to write apps for Series 4 Tivos.

There are some downsides. The hardware requirements are much more steep than previous Tivos but the cost of raw horsepower is pretty cheap these days. Also, Flash isn't competing with a user trying to do other things in a set top box...as long as there is enough resources to run the database, Tivo engine and system functions, then you're OK. But of course even if you wanted to upgrade the older S3 boxes to a like interface, that would be impossible given their hardware constraints.

In the end, will all this be enough? Many of us (including critics) have serious doubts. Tivo pioneered this product and has the patent portfolio that they have successfully defended. And frankly, Internet-based content isn't deep enough for me to satisfy the demands of my kids who expect The Wiggles, My Friends Tigger and Pooh, Sesame Street and other programming to magically show up every day without fail. But the hardware profile and the scope of the Series 4 is underwhelming by just about everyone that has reported on it. No multi-room DVR approach like Moxi. The app strategy had few if any partners at launch (past what was already available). The hardware is still expensive and monthly fees are tough to justify in a recession when people are trying to cut back one more utility bill. Tivo still has some good cards in its hand. Their brand name is still king. Most people outside this forum still don't know what Moxi is (the fact that Moxi hasn't broken through with significant market share or any partners is damning to them). And there are still cable and sat partnerships supposidly in the works.

Will I upgrade? I dunno. My older S3s (in the $800 days) are still working well. Frankly, there are more important things for me to spend money on right now. But the fact that this doesn't seem like a "gotta have" moment for someone like me (first Tivo purchased 7/11/99) is a big problem for Tivo, Inc.

I hate quoting entire posts just to add "+1"... but

+1

Except for that last bolded part: I don't think this TiVo is made for you and I. We already have a lot of this functionality, but those who mostly use cable boxes right now (with or without DVR) don't. This is aimed at them, not us.

[Joe3]

TiVo, we have a problem, maybe!

I have been trying to get my head around this tech company's big deal announcement, but couldn’t quiet put my finger on what is going on until now.

TiVo is no longer a leading edge tech company and the economic rescission we are in is covering up for what otherwise would be obvious.

Correct me if I’m wrong, but the CPU capacity existed for an HD IU at the introduction of the Series 3. The capacity should have been built into the Series 3 when it came not now in the Series 4. The Series 4 is using a duel core processor that just about covers the HD IU.

Why is TiVo not building its box to the edge of today’s high tech processors and technology? I believe that they have abandoned not so much their customers but their status as being cutting edge high tech for a Marketing plan that is more IBM than Apple. This is the uninspired, not turned on, disappointed hole they leave in everyone's gut when introduce their product.

Instead letting the technology set the limit of their box, they are allowing their marketing people to artificially set tech limits that they can control by holding back some of the latest tech. They blame Hollywood and their content restriction which have nothing to with the tech that always leap frogs over what Hollywood is complaining about. They blame the consumer as not being able to afford the cutting edge stuff that should be in their boxes anyway by over charging for last years tech, keeping the TiVo faithful on their marketing meat hook. So you will see today’s latest tech in tomorrow’s Series 5 and it will again be disappointing but not enough for most to be knocked off the marketing hook. They disappoint because they are purposefully behind the tech curve in an outdated and old adoptive marketing model.

My theory is that they are always going to disappoint because they are now more a marketing company than tech. However, this may be the beginning of the end for TiVo because the high tech gap they are willing to give up for a manipulative marketing strategy makes them extremely vulnerable for a smaller high tech company to take their dominance away.

Just a thought!

[heySkippy]

I think it's a terrible idea to use Flash. Personally, I hope Apple succeeds in killing Flash and failing that, maybe they'll force Adobe to come up with a version that works well on non-Win platforms.

[Raj]

I would have to say this is a deal breaker for me... I am boycotting Adobe. I am not at all happy with their complete and total lack of 64bit support for IE, as well as iPhone, not to mention their horrible or non-existent upgrade policies for their software.

Sounds like you should be boycotting Apple, not Adobe.

[Raj]

I think it's a terrible idea to use Flash. Personally, I hope Apple succeeds in killing Flash and failing that, maybe they'll force Adobe to come up with a version that works well on non-Win platforms.

I hope Apple fails, just because they want to force their will on the community at large.

Why can't they just let the end user decide? No. Instead they punish you and lock you into their technology jail because they feel they know what's best for you. In other words you're treated like a 5 year old when you use an apple product.

[ZeoTiVo]

But the fact that this doesn't seem like a "gotta have" moment for someone like me (first Tivo purchased 7/11/99) is a big problem for Tivo, Inc.

then again - TiVo is not looking for upgraders like you and me -- TiVo wants new sales to new subscribers. New subscribers may very well go - wow look at all the features, and what a shiny interface.

and you are dead on about Flash developers and the host of 3rd parties writing flash apps. I look forward to all those widgets like they have made for newer HD TVs.

PS - the iPad can not surf the majority of web sites I like to visit - killed iPad sale right there for me. I have a new smartphone that can hit those same websites with no tinkering by me. Flash is the current standard and TiVo Premiere does it via hardware which drops off all the negatives save for Adobe company and people who run it.

[wierdo]

It is.

The problem with Flash is the it's too resource intensive without dedicated hardware acceleration.

I don't think you know what you're talking about here. There are several phones that have had flash capability for literally many years. The one I've got now plays flash 9.4 content fine, without any hardware acceleration, although GPU accelerated 10.1 is supposedly coming soon.

Philosophically, I don't have a problem with Flash. It works fine on my Ubuntu installation. (64 bit, no less!) I have a much bigger problem with Apple refusing to allow Adobe to put it on the iPhone.

As far as the new TiVo UI being Flash, I couldn't care less. It's an appliance. It hasn't been reasonably easy to run third party software on it since the S2 was released. As long as it works reasonably well, they can make it run anything they want and I won't care.

Edited to add: To be fair, Flash is far too resource intensive on slower CPUs to do HD video, although it will work fine for CIF-sized video.

[NotVeryWitty]

The TiVoHD/S3 software is written mostly in C, as far as I know.

Hence the importantace of a hardware acceleration for Flash.

You would not see Flash on TiVo or any other set-top without such acceleration. It would be too slow otherwise, given the general purpose computing power in these boxes.
According to your FAQ page, the Premiere is using the BCM7413. Looking at Broadcom's chip summary for that part (http://www.broadcom.com/products/IPTV/IPTV-Solutions/BCM7413), I see no mention of Flash acceleration. On the other hand, they do mention it for the BCM7125 (http://www.broadcom.com/products/Cable/Cable-Set-Top-Box-Solutions/BCM7125).

Many people have been posting that the Premiere has built-in hardware support for Flash. Do you know if this is really true?

[MickeS]

According to your FAQ page, the Premiere is using the BCM7413. Looking at Broadcom's chip summary for that part (http://www.broadcom.com/products/IPTV/IPTV-Solutions/BCM7413), I see no mention of Flash acceleration. On the other hand, they do mention it for the BCM7125 (http://www.broadcom.com/products/Cable/Cable-Set-Top-Box-Solutions/BCM7125).

Many people have been posting that the Premiere has built-in hardware support for Flash. Do you know if this is really true?

Good point. I assumed it had hard ware acceleration based on what someone else (not bkdtv) wrote, but I may have misunderstood it.

[SnakeEyes]

I hope Apple fails, just because they want to force their will on the community at large.

Why can't they just let the end user decide? No. Instead they punish you and lock you into their technology jail because they feel they know what's best for you. In other words you're treated like a 5 year old when you use an apple product.

Apple wants html5, an open standard, instead of the lazy, bloated, resource hogging closed Flash development. I'm going to side with Apple.

[MickeS]

Apple wants html5, an open standard, instead of the lazy, bloated, resource hogging Flash development. I'm going to side with Apple.

I hate Flash too, and would prefer to see it gone (and like that Apple might make it happen). But that's because it SUCKS on webpages. I have no idea how it will work in the TiVo.

[samo]

I don't think this TiVo is made for you and I. We already have a lot of this functionality, but those who mostly use cable boxes right now (with or without DVR) don't. This is aimed at them, not us.
TiVo has been aiming at new subscribers for years, but has been missing the shot after shot. It is about time to buy new glasses for marketing department or perhaps retire present stuff and get some new blood who can see better.

[nrc]

Apple wants html5, an open standard, instead of the lazy, bloated, resource hogging closed Flash development. I'm going to side with Apple.

Ah yes. Apple, champion of open standards. :rolleyes:

[wierdo]

Apple wants html5, an open standard, instead of the lazy, bloated, resource hogging closed Flash development. I'm going to side with Apple.
No, apple wants H.264 video, which is not a royalty free standard. At least with Flash, you can do whatever you want with it once you've paid for the tools.

When Apple starts pushing Theora video, I'll be happy to believe Apple's anti-Flash stance has anything to do with caring about open standards. Until that day, I stand by my assessment that it's more about trying to get people to use Apple tools instead of Adobe tools.

There is absolutely no excuse for Apple refusing to let Adobe develop a Flash plugin for the iPhone and iPad browsers. Aside from attempting to push their software, that is.

[TWinbrook46636]

The moment a Flash plug-in becomes available for the iPhone you will have all sorts of garbage Flash apps and ads slowing them down to a crawl or crashing them. No thank you. I have experienced that enough on my PCs. Flash is a buggy resource hog. It's crap.

[MickeS]

The moment a Flash plug-in becomes available for the iPhone you will have all sorts of garbage Flash apps and ads slowing them down to a crawl or crashing them. No thank you. I have experienced that enough on my PCs. Flash is a buggy resource hog. It's crap.

I agree. But you don't really think Apple opposes it for that reason, do you?

[SnakeEyes]

No, apple wants H.264 video, which is not a royalty free standard. At least with Flash, you can do whatever you want with it once you've paid for the tools.

When Apple starts pushing Theora video, I'll be happy to believe Apple's anti-Flash stance has anything to do with caring about open standards. Until that day, I stand by my assessment that it's more about trying to get people to use Apple tools instead of Adobe tools.

There is absolutely no excuse for Apple refusing to let Adobe develop a Flash plugin for the iPhone and iPad browsers. Aside from attempting to push their software, that is.

They ALSO want H.264. It's not an either or situation. With Flash you can use H.264, as YouTube does now, just as you can with html5. At least html5 is an open standard.

[SnakeEyes]

Ah yes. Apple, champion of open standards. :rolleyes:

Never said they were. But we'd all be better off if Flash were defeated by html5. So in this case, I'm siding with Apple.

[Raj]

Apple wants html5, an open standard, instead of the lazy, bloated, resource hogging closed Flash development. I'm going to side with Apple.

I don't care what Apple wants. Apple wants its way or the highway. That's certainly not championing open standards. That's being a bully.

End users want to decide for themselves. That is why so many people are jailbreaking iPhones to run apps they want to run and Apple doesn't instead of staying in Apple's technology jail.

[SnakeEyes]

I don't care what Apple wants. Apple wants its way or the highway. That's certainly not championing open standards. That's being a bully.

End users want to decide for themselves. That is why so many people are jailbreaking iPhones to run apps they want to run and Apple doesn't instead of staying in Apple's technology jail.

Where you care or not is irrelevant to the discussion. And whether Apple is a bully or not, whether they champion open standards or not, doesn't change the fact that they are on the side of the open standard html5.

So you like Flash, so you want Flash supported. Tell me why it's better.

[ZeoTiVo]

Where you care or not is irrelevant to the discussion. And whether Apple is a bully or not, whether they champion open standards or not, doesn't change the fact that they are on the side of the open standard html5.

So you like Flash, so you want Flash supported. Tell me why it's better.

Whether flash is better or not is irrelevant to the discussion. And whether Apple is right or not, whether they use flash or not, doesn't change the fact that the websites most people want to browse are Flash versus the open standard html5.
The iPad is not some gadget being designed for 5 years hence but being sold this year. It will not take the place of a netbook so it had better play good games (check) play video easily(sort of check - have to use Apple way) and be able to browse all my entertainment websites and allow me to play media from them (big fat nada on this one)

with one third the functionality lost the iPad is a no sale for me. Now in 5 years if HTML5 is kicking Flash butt and all the web sites use HTML 5 then great I will be happy using the gadgets that support HTML 5 and never look back.
Again this is not 5 years from now.

this ties into TiVo using Flash as well - all the widgets for the new TVs are in flash, flash developers can write to the web and to mobile phone and to the TVs and now TiVo - 3rd party apps are flowing in Flash and Apple will have a hard time changing that - so TiVo is best to just jump in the flow and run Flash natively in their UI.

[wierdo]

Tell me why it's better.
H.264 sucks for animation. ActionScript is faster than JavaScript for animation and the like (usually).

Not that I particularly care for flash. I care for manufacturers of supposedly general purpose devices not dictating what software I may or may not run. Nobody's asking Apple to write a Flash plugin themselves. We just want them to let someone else do it.

Regardless, Flash Video, whether H.264 or otherwise, has absolutely nothing to do with TiVo using Flash. They are two entirely different uses.

[jannlinder]

be able to browse all my entertainment websites and allow me to play media from them (big fat nada on this one)

Okaaaaaaaaaaayyyyyyyyy

I am gonna say this and I really want you to think about it cos I am not against you nor your ideas. I am against people who are not thinking about what Apple is accomplishing here. NOT what you think they want to accomplish...but what they are accomplishing with the refusal to allow flash onto the iPhone and with the callout of Adobe Flash as being a resource hog on the OS X platform (and many others).

Have you ever visited those sites with Flash turned off? Your computer is much faster...scrolling speed much better and you can actually read the articles on the page without some advertiser using YOUR horsepower to render their irritating ad.

Is Flash really needed? No. Video can play without flash. If all you want to see if video on those entertainment sites? You do not need flash. I will say this again: You do not need flash to view video.

Playing online games? Maybe. Viewing streaming video? Nope.


...with one third the functionality lost the iPad is a no sale for me. Now in 5 years if HTML5 is kicking Flash butt and all the web sites use HTML 5 then great I will be happy using the gadgets that support HTML 5 and never look back.
Again this is not 5 years from now.

this ties into TiVo using Flash as well - all the widgets for the new TVs are in flash, flash developers can write to the web and to mobile phone and to the TVs and now TiVo - 3rd party apps are flowing in Flash and Apple will have a hard time changing that - so TiVo is best to just jump in the flow and run Flash natively in their UI.


One third gone? I have been trying to figure this one out. I use Click2Flash...and have for around 6 months ever since I found it. Since then I have YET to see one irritating ad that those entertainment sides want to riddle my screen with.

The problem that we are seeing nowadays is that websites and site designers do not know when enough is enough. I do not wish to have 70% of my screen taken up with flash ads in the right hand margin and riddled throughout the text in 3"x3" squares forcing me to see them.

What Apple is really accomplishing is the following:

Flash is buggy and slow
Flash developers by-and-large are lazy when they code ads and applications.

The combination of the two is horrific!

What do we get with Apple refusing Flash on the iPhone.

One: Games/Apps only from Apple.
Do I like this? No. Do I deal with it? Yes. Why? Cos just tell me what apps (besides Google voice ... that found a COOL way around the "Cannot duplicate iphone functionality clause") I am missing? Another browser on my iPhone? Don't want it. Mobile Safari is Great! Certainly way better than Microsoft’s Internet Explorer Mobile. Tell me that WinMob IE complies with HTML5! Nope! Mobile Safari does.. That means you can view video on HTML5-compliant sites with it. .99 for most apps (or free) is great!

Two: x264-only video.
So what? I put all my video in this format anyway, as it is the format all my Apple OS X machines, iPhones, iPods, yes and even my TiVo natively uses! What is wrong with that video format. My TiVo certainly does not allow ANY kind of access into it's Flash video player. Why encode differently? I have never understood this.

WAY better battery life
Okay, let's test. I will play video using youtube on the iPhone. You play it using your flash player on your new Windows Mobile handset. Whose battery runs out first. Oh, what is that? Flash isn’t landing on existing Windows Mobile handsets, either (http://jkontherun.com/2010/02/26/windows-phone-7-flash/)? Poor WinMobile. Adobe has reportedly reworked its Flash strategy and is now deferring mobile Flash support to Windows Phone 7 Series devices. (This is followed in the last week by Skype abandoning (http://jkontherun.com/2010/02/25/skype-windows-mobile/) the WinMob platform all together! )


Lessee: New List:

Companies who are abandoning Flash on the Mobile Platform
* Adobe

Isn't that enough said? That really wasn't fair as they are not abandoning it. They have decided to "defer support for it".

Okay, Now let's talk TiVo. With the hype around Flash being a resource hog (and even Adobe admits that it is a very "heavy" resource user on platforms that do not allow direct access to the graphics chips) isn't it the worst time to deliver a set top box with Flash built in as the ONE THING that always runs? PS: The Tivo Premiere systems do NOT have ANY IC's that are flash-hardware accelerated. I talked to TiVo Techs today and asked. They categorically denied both having dedicated chipsets for flash AND they denied rewriting the kernel to allow Adobe Flash direct access to the graphics system that they would need for acceleration. Flash on Linux does not use x264 GPU accelleration either. Read this link (http://www.kaourantin.net/2008/05/what-does-gpu-acceleration-mean.html) for what the different "drawing" methods flash uses..and what can be accelerated on which platforms. OpenGL is used on most platforms for drawing to the screen.

HELL ... TiVo openly states that if you want faster network copying (HME, etc) you need to tune the HD tuners to blank (or SD) channels. That the limiting factor in network latency and/or TiVo to TiVo copy speeds is the CPU and file I/O subsystem they put in my expensive TiVo HD.

What are they gonna tell me to do now? Want faster copying? Turn off the TiVo.

So, again, tell me...Why is Flash irrelevant to the discussion?

Websites will redesign if the standards change (or get enforced by browser vendors). That is a good thing.

[SnakeEyes]

Whether flash is better or not is irrelevant to the discussion. And whether Apple is right or not, whether they use flash or not, doesn't change the fact that the websites most people want to browse are Flash versus the open standard html5.

Whether it's better or not is completely relevant. We are discussing whether or not Flash is a good or bad idea.

The iPad is not some gadget being designed for 5 years hence but being sold this year. It will not take the place of a netbook so it had better play good games (check) play video easily(sort of check - have to use Apple way) and be able to browse all my entertainment websites and allow me to play media from them (big fat nada on this one)

with one third the functionality lost the iPad is a no sale for me. Now in 5 years if HTML5 is kicking Flash butt and all the web sites use HTML 5 then great I will be happy using the gadgets that support HTML 5 and never look back.
Again this is not 5 years from now.

You said most sites people want to visit are using Flash. That's the problem. As big player, adding Flash on encourages developers to continue to use Flash and delay any desire to do something different. That is why Apple is not supporting flash. Especially not when allowing Flash just makes things slower, more prone to crashing, and costs money. Especially when there is something better on the horizon. And it's not going to take 5 years either.

this ties into TiVo using Flash as well - all the widgets for the new TVs are in flash, flash developers can write to the web and to mobile phone and to the TVs and now TiVo - 3rd party apps are flowing in Flash and Apple will have a hard time changing that - so TiVo is best to just jump in the flow and run Flash natively in their UI.

That doesn't change the thought that Flash is awful for a variety of reasons and that it's going to be made obsolete by html5. Adobe is already terrible with development and improvement of Flash. When it is no longer the web darling that it is now then things will be even worse. But good luck to those adopting now. Might have made sense years ago.

[SnakeEyes]

H.264 sucks for animation. ActionScript is faster than JavaScript for animation and the like (usually).

Not that I particularly care for flash. I care for manufacturers of supposedly general purpose devices not dictating what software I may or may not run. Nobody's asking Apple to write a Flash plugin themselves. We just want them to let someone else do it.

Regardless, Flash Video, whether H.264 or otherwise, has absolutely nothing to do with TiVo using Flash. They are two entirely different uses.

Apple is only dictating what software you may or may not run if you choose to buy their products. There are many general purpose devices you can use out there besides Apple.

As for animation, Canvas is better and good gui tools are on the way.

[dswallow]

I finally watched the video.

Pathetic.

My Amazon Unbox HME app provided a faster HD screen UI experience on a Series3. How can TiVo put that in front of the press? It was painful sitting through it just waiting for graphics to appear at all on some screens; and then they'd pop in a couple every second or two. Just painful to watch. And I never saw a single text menu that appeared; they all were drawn one line at a time, painfully slowly.

That's just so very sad.

I sure hope this was just a jury-rigged mocked-up demo and that whatever ships will perform better. But this really just completely turned me off bothering even getting one to play with. Now I have to at least await word from people that the speed is appreciably snappier than it appears to be, and at least snappier than equivalent interaction with the current interface.

[Raj]

Where you care or not is irrelevant to the discussion. And whether Apple is a bully or not, whether they champion open standards or not, doesn't change the fact that they are on the side of the open standard html5.

So you like Flash, so you want Flash supported. Tell me why it's better.

I don't want flash because it's better. I want to use flash because I paid for the device and I want to use it how I want to use it. That's all!

[Raj]

Apple is only dictating what software you may or may not run if you choose to buy their products.

Hmm. I thought when money changed hands it became my product, not theirs.

[flaminiom]

I thought Flash Platform apps run right on the OS vs through an intermediate layer like everyone is most familiar with on the Web. A perfect example is while Flash plug-in will never be on the iPhone OS, there will be Flash apps.

If you look at the Flash Platform site, it lists DirectTV UI as a customer.

Flash as a large developer community and mature tools. I'm sure Tivo was able to bring a complete redesign faster to market using Flash Platform than if they started from scratch or make the current OS limp along for another decade. Also, I think there are a lot of possibilities for extensibility from Tivo and third-party developers/content producers.

I say lets see how the finish product looks in the home with a dedicated network connection, rather than making a bunch of assumptions on poor Flash plug-in performance.

[StuffOfInterest]

Hmm. I thought when money changed hands it became my product, not theirs.

You thought wrong. When you pay for software you pay for a license to use that software, not for the software itself. With that license comes a terms of service which can (and does) impose restrictions. When you buy an iPhone, iPad, or any other computer based product you are buying the hadware but you are not buying Applies iPhone OS, only a license for that OS which has the restrictions above. Dump Apple's OS and you can do anything you want with the hardware, but good luck making it do much more than throw a basic "error, no OS found" message on the screen. Same as a PC would work without any OS. And a TiVo is basicly just a PC with specilized interfaces.

[flaminiom]

Ah yes. Apple, champion of open standards. :rolleyes:

Hmm. I thought when money changed hands it became my product, not theirs.

You should read the end user license agreement on all your software and operating systems.

[SnakeEyes]

I don't want flash because it's better. I want to use flash because I paid for the device and I want to use it how I want to use it. That's all!

Hmm. I thought when money changed hands it became my product, not theirs.

As already posted by others, you thought wrong. In addition to a TOS and EULA, an educated consumer buys a product knowing it's features and benefits along with it's drawbacks and limitations. Every product has their limitations. An educated consumer that buys an Apple iDevice knows it won't support Flash. It's your choice to do so or not.

Regardless of that, I noticed you didn't tell me why Flash was better when I gave you the opportunity. I assume that's because you don't think it's better?

[jmpage2]

It is understandable why TiVo went with Flash for reasons already mentioned. TiVo obviously does plan some kind of future application functionality for the new box and if it has the (unverified) hardware acceleration for Flash that has been mentioned then it is totally understandable why they have chosen to go with it.

I am just hopeful that Adobe don't continue to be lazy slobs who leave gaping security holes in Flash, refuse to fix problems that result in lag and crashes, etc.

As far as the whole Adobe vs. Apple thing I think that a lot of people forget the history of that relationship. Apple was pushing Quicktime (which was more or less standards based) as the way of distributing media on the internet. Microsoft teamed up with Adobe to push flash and effectively marginalized the standards based Quicktime in favor of buggy and proprietary Flash.

Apple has every right to stick it to Adobe with the iPad/iPod not supporting Flash. Flash would suck battery power, leave the devices exposed to crashes and other problems that APPLE gets stuck supporting and continues to prop up a proprietary format that should go bye-bye.

[Raj]

As already posted by others, you thought wrong. In addition to a TOS and EULA, an educated consumer buys a product knowing it's features and benefits along with it's drawbacks and limitations. Every product has their limitations. An educated consumer that buys an Apple iDevice knows it won't support Flash. It's your choice to do so or not.

Regardless of that, I noticed you didn't tell me why Flash was better when I gave you the opportunity. I assume that's because you don't think it's better?

The point is that I don't think it's better. I just want the freedom to run it without someone else telling me I can't because they think that the world shouldn't be using it.

[Raj]

It is understandable why TiVo went with Flash for reasons already mentioned. TiVo obviously does plan some kind of future application functionality for the new box and if it has the (unverified) hardware acceleration for Flash that has been mentioned then it is totally understandable why they have chosen to go with it.

I am just hopeful that Adobe don't continue to be lazy slobs who leave gaping security holes in Flash, refuse to fix problems that result in lag and crashes, etc.

As far as the whole Adobe vs. Apple thing I think that a lot of people forget the history of that relationship. Apple was pushing Quicktime (which was more or less standards based) as the way of distributing media on the internet. Microsoft teamed up with Adobe to push flash and effectively marginalized the standards based Quicktime in favor of buggy and proprietary Flash.

Apple has every right to stick it to Adobe with the iPad/iPod not supporting Flash. Flash would suck battery power, leave the devices exposed to crashes and other problems that APPLE gets stuck supporting and continues to prop up a proprietary format that should go bye-bye.

So in other words they're forcing consumers to spite their competitors by disabling the use of third party products.

If Microsoft did the same thing they'd be hit with an anti-trust suit. Oh wait a minute, they were!!!

Again, proof that the gospel according to Jobs is that Apple Can Do No Wrong.

[flaminiom]

The point is that I don't think it's better. I just want the freedom to run it without someone else telling me I can't because they think that the world shouldn't be using it.

And I'd like a flying car, but I don't see that being in the cards either. ;)

So in other words they're forcing consumers to spite their competitors by disabling the use of third party products.

If Microsoft did the same thing they'd be hit with an anti-trust suit. Oh wait a minute, they were!!!

Again, proof that the gospel according to Jobs is that Apple Can Do No Wrong.

Apple is building a new platform and they're particular about what others do to it and its reputation among consumers (more so than among developers, apparently). Sometimes I agree, sometimes I disagree. That's just the way it is. In the end it is their platform and they're doing many things right and I think many more will be proven right in the long run.

Keep in mind, if Apple won't let you do something in the app store, you can do it in a web app.

[jmpage2]

So in other words they're forcing consumers to spite their competitors by disabling the use of third party products.

If Microsoft did the same thing they'd be hit with an anti-trust suit. Oh wait a minute, they were!!!

Again, proof that the gospel according to Jobs is that Apple Can Do No Wrong.

I think you are putting words in people's mouth, or trying to anyway. If anything anti-trust was done initially it was MS and Adobe maneuvering to take Apple out of the web media business by bundling Flash into IE and leveraging the installed base to get Flash into the dominant position it is in today (and hurting Apple in the process).

Your argument is pretty nonsensical. Companies are forced to support STANDARDS not non-standards, license based products from their competitors.

Apple isn't doing anything illegal by not supporting flash. The argument that you can't access part of the web without flash is an argument about a consumer making a choice based on what they want to do with the box.

A better analogy would be this one;

Several Blu-ray manufacturers ship their boxes with Pandora. Another manufacturer chooses not to ship their Blu-ray player with Pandora. While Pandora is great and has lots of nifty content, there is nothing illegal about not shipping a player with this non-standards based media player that simply limits access to content.

An educated consumer makes the decision up front and picks their device accordingly. I have personally found flash, in web use, to be buggy, security vulnerable and a total resource hog. I will not shed a tear when it's gone.

This is all about consumer choice. You can choose whatever handset meets your needs. If Flash is sooo important to you then pick a device that supports it. Apple is being very particular about what they allow to run on the iPhone because the user experience is paramount to them. My grandma can use an iPhone, she probably can't use a WinMo phone.

P.S., the future of mobile computing is going to be more iPhone like than WinMo like in my opinion.

[heySkippy]

Again, proof that the gospel according to Jobs is that Apple Can Do No Wrong.
Gotta love how you can make 1 + 1 = 3.

Face it, you're not the customer Apple wants.

[StuffOfInterest]

Umm, is this a TiVo forum or an Apple forum?

[Raj]

Apple isn't doing anything illegal yet because so far no one has gone to court about Flash.

Anyway I'm not going to derail this thread anymore because we agree to disagree and fanboys typically think that Apple can do no wrong and there is nothing to convince them.

Suffice to say, I'm not going to own any more Apple products, since the restrictions have made it difficult to do what I want to do with it.

So you can keep your Apple products, I'll keep my freedom.

BAck to talking about TiVo.

[Raj]

Face it, you're not the customer Apple wants.

You are probably right. :)

[jannlinder]

The point is that I don't think it's better. I just want the freedom to run it without someone else telling me I can't because they think that the world shouldn't be using it.

Jailbreak your phone, install flash and be done with it. :)

BUT be ready for any new OS updates to cripple your jailbroken iPhone if Apple so wishes.

Apple says you do as they wish you to do on their hardware using their software. If you do not agree, then you did not really agree to the terms of service and should not have bought the iPhone to begin with. What you essentially did was buy the iPhone, and *lying*, you agreed to the Apple and AT&T Terms of Service. You really have no reason in the world to be upset. You lied when you agreed to the way Apple said you could use their product and AT&T's network. Why do you think you have a leg to stand on? Most courts would say you broke the contract -- assuming the contract was legal. It is NOT a shink-wrapped contract. Why do you think Apple requires you to leave the store *with* a contract in place when you buy an iPhone?

[dswallow]

As far as the whole Adobe vs. Apple thing I think that a lot of people forget the history of that relationship. Apple was pushing Quicktime (which was more or less standards based) as the way of distributing media on the internet. Microsoft teamed up with Adobe to push flash and effectively marginalized the standards based Quicktime in favor of buggy and proprietary Flash.

I hate both. But Quicktime was never a contender on the PC and still is not; it's horrendous, buggy and unreliable and very limited in feature set. It integrates poorly within browsers. It offers either very little ability to customize or is so complex to use nobody except Apple ever uses it.

Flash may have its problems, and may be crash-prone in some environments, but compared to Quicktime, it's a mature and reliable product that offers a variety of features that can complement the user experience if not abused by the developer.

Neither belong in an embedded device as a standard interface.

[jmpage2]

I hate both. But Quicktime was never a contender on the PC and still is not; it's horrendous, buggy and unreliable and very limited in feature set. It integrates poorly within browsers. It offers either very little ability to customize or is so complex to use nobody except Apple ever uses it.

Flash may have its problems, and may be crash-prone in some environments, but compared to Quicktime, it's a mature and reliable product that offers a variety of features that can complement the user experience if not abused by the developer.

Neither belong in an embedded device as a standard interface.

Looking at QT today you can't tell at all what it would be if it had gained more traction over 10 years ago.

I agree that both platforms are not feature rich enough for their proposed application, but that's where HTML5 comes in.

The point I was trying to make is that lots of people are whining that Apple is screwing Adobe, when in fact Adobe are the ones that knifed Apple 1st.

[jannlinder]

Umm, is this a TiVo forum or an Apple forum?

When the question revolves around Flash, and Apple is big-time wanting to get rid of flash on the iPhone/iPad, you are gonna get both. Especially when the question is of the power of the new series of HD Premiere players being able to run Flash without grinding to a halt (as shown in the video). It is EXACTLY why Apple will not allow Flash to run on the iPhone/iPad.

Tell me that you are impressed of the speed of the Flash interface on the Premiere and I will not post another word about it. Until then, TiVo opened the door on this conversation by creating an interface that we (if we bought the TiVo) would be stuck using every day.

The speed of the interface (or lack thereof) is a major reason my husband and I moved away from Comcast's DVRs! They were underpowered!

[SnakeEyes]

The point is that I don't think it's better. I just want the freedom to run it without someone else telling me I can't because they think that the world shouldn't be using it.

So then this has really just been an exercise for you to criticize Apple and not actually discuss the point that was being made; my correct point that you and Apple agree that Flash isn't better. In addition to that, despite the fact that you don't think Flash is better you still want Apple to fail in supporting the replacement for Flash... html5. Got it.

And you can run it if you want to. Buy a different device that supports Flash. It's a decision some companies chose to do and others chose not to. Just as what happens throughout the marketplace every day.

[Raj]

Flash actually does fine with hardware acceleration, which is why I think the premiere won't have (m)any problems with it.

[jmpage2]

Apple isn't doing anything illegal yet because so far no one has gone to court about Flash.

Anyway I'm not going to derail this thread anymore because we agree to disagree and fanboys typically think that Apple can do no wrong and there is nothing to convince them.

Suffice to say, I'm not going to own any more Apple products, since the restrictions have made it difficult to do what I want to do with it.

So you can keep your Apple products, I'll keep my freedom.

BAck to talking about TiVo.

Using MS and Adobe makes you "free"? :rolleyes: Now that's a laugh! I think there is a fanboy present in this discussion and it's not the people who like their Apple products.

[Stormspace]

Flash will be dead in a couple years. HTML5 FTW!

HTML 5 hasn't even been finished..and no decision has been made whether HTML5 will use a proprietary video format (H.264) or an open one (Ogg Theora). The Mozilla foundation has already said they won't put H.264 in Firefox because of this, and they have a good point since the H.264 owners could start charging royalties at any time.

Flash is a safe bet right now...the devil you know. :)

[ZeoTiVo]

Okaaaaaaaaaaayyyyyyyyy

I am gonna say this and I really want you to think about it cos I am not against you nor your ideas. I am against people who are not thinking about what Apple is accomplishing here. NOT what you think they want to accomplish...but what they are accomplishing with the refusal to allow flash onto the iPhone and with the callout of Adobe Flash as being a resource hog on the OS X platform (and many others).

Have you ever visited those sites with Flash turned off?
no becasue they are gaming sites and flash is what the game runs in currently

So, again, tell me...Why is Flash irrelevant to the discussion?

Websites will redesign if the standards change (or get enforced by browser vendors). That is a good thing.
discussion of HTML 5 is the irrelevant part. The places I go on the web for entertainment - the entertaining part is in flash - a device that has web browsing that does not use flash is irrelevant to me. That takes care of the apple discussion from my end.

as for TiVo - they had HME - I wonder how long the list is of people who said - love to work with you TiVo but I am not going to retool anyone to use HME just for TiVo. Buh bye.

So TIvo asked them what would they work with currently
who wants to guess the ratio of Falsh being the answer versus HTML 5 ?

and for the last kicker - TiVo can very likely incorporate HTML 5 when needed in the future, so can my smartphone and so can Apple products and so on. So I ma future proofed and still enjoying my websites on my smartphone.

TiVo can do business NOW and in the future when the answer is HTML 5 instead.

so when all my websites are HTML 5 - then I will take another look at whatever iStuff Apple has then.

[heySkippy]

Flash actually does fine with hardware acceleration, which is why I think the premiere won't have (m)any problems with it.
That's assuming the Premiere box has hardware acceleration. So far I haven't seen any official evidence of that.

But hey, maybe everything will work out okay and y'all will be able to play Farmville on your TiVo. Won't life be grand then? :)

[JimboG]

So you can keep your Apple products, I'll keep my freedom.

BAck to talking about TiVo.

I would like the freedom to keep my TiVo free from Flash. Flash sucks. The prospect of Flash ads for stomach band surgery and crappy lite beer makes me hesitant to replace my S3 with a TiVo Premiere.

As dswallow mentioned, the menu performance at the TiVo Premiere launch event was laughably slow. Take a read through the user guide for the Series 4 TiVos and see how many new features there are that you can't get on a Series 3. Moreover, go to http://www.tivo.com/mytivo/product-features/index.html and compare the Series 3 or TiVo HDXL with the new TiVo Premiere. It's amazing that the page that is supposed to convince you to upgrade gives so few real incentives to upgrade.:(

[Natron]

I would like the freedom to keep my TiVo free from Flash. Flash sucks. The prospect of Flash ads for stomach band surgery and crappy lite beer makes me hesitant to replace my S3 with a TiVo Premiere.
...

+1

My experience with Flash is limited to viewing websites and I find them very annoying. I have done everything possible to stop Flash from running on Firefox and if i need to view a Flash site, I hold my breath and look at with IE. If the new TiVo allows all the annoying ads and eye catching things that I have seen on Flash websites then I will not be upgrading.

[Raj]

That's assuming the Premiere box has hardware acceleration. So far I haven't seen any official evidence of that.

http://www.broadcom.com/press/release.php?id=s357665

With Adobe Flash Lite™ 3 software supported in the Broadcom® BCM3549, BCM3556, BCM7400 and BCM7405 SoC solutions,

[bkdtv]

http://www.broadcom.com/press/release.php?id=s357665

With Adobe Flash Lite™ 3 software supported in the Broadcom® BCM3549, BCM3556, BCM7400 and BCM7405 SoC solutions, Note the BCM7413 became available in volume 3-5 months after that press release, so you wouldn't expect to see it mentioned in that announcement.

[MickeS]

Note the BCM7413 became available in volume 3-5 months after that press release, so you wouldn't expect to see it mentioned in that announcement.

That answers an earlier question in the thread too, about why the BCM7413 doesn't have Flash included as a feature in the spec sheet. The 7400 and 7405 are explicitly mentioned as having Flash support built in, yet neither have it mentioned in their spec sheet on the site either. Maybe it's just something that is implicitly included.

[ZeoTiVo]

As dswallow mentioned, the menu performance at the TiVo Premiere launch event was laughably slow. read a little deeper - TiVo has stated that the HD menus are not ready for release yet. The premiere box will likely launch with the classic menus.
Take a read through the user guide for the Series 4 TiVos and see how many new features there are that you can't get on a Series 3. Moreover, go to http://www.tivo.com/mytivo/product-features/index.html and compare the Series 3 or TiVo HDXL with the new TiVo Premiere. It's amazing that the page that is supposed to convince you to upgrade gives so few real incentives to upgrade.:(
So don't upgrade then. There problem solved - your welcome. :)
the thing is TiVo makes no real gains by getting US to upgrade - likely it is a profit negative over time. The real benefit right now comes from new subscribers.

[tivogurl]

My Amazon Unbox HME app provided a faster HD screen UI experience on a Series3. How can TiVo put that in front of the press? It was painful sitting through it just waiting for graphics to appear at all on some screens; and then they'd pop in a couple every second or two. Just painful to watch. And I never saw a single text menu that appeared; they all were drawn one line at a time, painfully slowly.
This is why I believe the Premiere doesn't have hardware Flash acceleration. TiVo is being cheap where it shouldn't. If so, the Premiere is DOA, consumers won't stand for it.

If Adobe won't rewrite Flash for Linux to perform like Windows with the entire Linux user community clamoring for it, why would they fix it for TiVo? There is no reason inherent to Linux or OSX for Flash to perform terribly on those platforms, which suggests they were deliberately written to perform poorly.

[JimboG]

If Adobe won't rewrite Flash for Linux to perform like Windows with the entire Linux user community clamoring for it, why would they fix it for TiVo? There is no reason inherent to Linux or OSX for Flash to perform terribly on those platforms, which suggests they were deliberately written to perform poorly.

Never assume malice where simple laziness or incompetence would suffice.:D

Given Flash's lousy track record on Linux, OS-X, and Windows, I don't expect too much from Adobe.:down:

[tivogurl]

That answers an earlier question in the thread too, about why the BCM7413 doesn't have Flash included as a feature in the spec sheet. The 7400 and 7405 are explicitly mentioned as having Flash support built in, yet neither have it mentioned in their spec sheet on the site either. Maybe it's just something that is implicitly included.
If that's true, it's worse than I feared. The 7413 has hardware acceleration yet renders menus (let alone Flash video or animation) that slowly? Just how much of Flash does the hardware accelerate? I hope the TiVo isn't having to failover to software rendering all the time because the hardware is too limited. That Broadcom press release doesn't explicitly mention hardware acceleration either. It says "Flash Lite software supported", which could mean anything.

[vstone]

And yet you would think they would have tested this before the big "inventing the DVR was just a warmup" press release and someone would have said, "you know, I'm growing old waiting for this page to update, I wonder if our customers will notice?" Sorry, but if you're going to put this kind of thing together, you put the dam server in the room and connect it at Gigabit, so it's lightning fast. You don't run across some wireless link that all the bloggers in the room are using for their tweets and whatnot as well.I worked for a software company/ISP in the late 90's. One of the owners did the web site. Of course it was blazingly fast inside the building. Outside the building, all customers were dial-up. Downloading these huge HD pic files at 48K. What a mess!

[Raj]

I like how everyone is passing judgment on how slow it is even though none of you actually have a box in your hands.

[MickeS]

I like how everyone is passing judgment on how slow it is even though none of you actually have a box in your hands.

Sure, but the videos showed it to be shockingly slow. TiVo simply cannot release a product that works like that and expect it to succeed, so I hope that it's not an indication of how the final product will work in homes.

[Raj]

Sure, but the videos showed it to be shockingly slow. TiVo simply cannot release a product that works like that and expect it to succeed, so I hope that it's not an indication of how the final product will work in homes.

I hope so too.

[vstone]

This is why I believe the Premiere doesn't have hardware Flash acceleration. TiVo is being cheap where it shouldn't. If so, the Premiere is DOA, consumers won't stand for it.

If Adobe won't rewrite Flash for Linux to perform like Windows with the entire Linux user community clamoring for it, why would they fix it for TiVo? There is no reason inherent to Linux or OSX for Flash to perform terribly on those platforms, which suggests they were deliberately written to perform poorly.Well, ...
It's now clear that Tivo didn't think to use a powerful enough processor in the S3 et all to run HIRES graphics (or too cheap to write the code). It will be interesting if they didn't put enough a powerful enough CPU or GPU in it do what is needed. Sounds like search for the guilty and pnishment of the innocent.

[dswallow]

Well, ...
It's now clear that Tivo didn't think to use a powerful enough processor in the S3 et all to run HIRES graphics (or too cheap to write the code). It will be interesting if they didn't put enough a powerful enough CPU or GPU in it do what is needed. Sounds like search for the guilty and pnishment of the innocent.

It's quite clear the hardware in the S3 is quite capable of running HD UI graphics. The S3 does this today in HME apps, including one from TiVo. The slowness in TiVo Search is their reliance on data coming over the internet from their servers for the search itself, but as far as writing onscreen in HD resolutions using HD imagery and HD text, it's more than adequate. It's certainly no worse that current drawing speed, which in itself is quite fast. Any slowness has been mostly from the backend -- serving data to be displayed. For instance, putting up an HD guide on a S3 would seem a little slower because it's already being slowed down because the data it needs to display comes in slowly; so it'd put more onscreen in HD, and need to get more of that data, but it wouldn't be slower per-line than it is now, it'd be a linear speed decrease based on the amount of additional information they could now fit.

The very demo that TiVo was using to announce this new device to the PRESS shows screen and menu drawing that is VERY NOTICEABLY SLOWER than even the S3 is today. That is a very bad thing to demonstrate to a tech-savvy group of people. That is the impression everyone is now going with. SLOWNESS.

If this is indeed that slow because it's just not ready yet, well, bad timing for them. But really, why would you choose to show something that painfully slow and at the same time attempt to tell everyone how much more powerful the hardware is? It's either one of the most completely stupid things TiVo has ever done, or the UI will be that slow and the "performance" is hidden in the backend and is used up entirely, if not more, in providing the additional picture and UI elements or background processing.

I sure hope when it's released it's much snappier. But if it is, I'm still going to say TiVo made an extraordinarily stupid move in showing it off in this condition under such a marketing campaign. And if it turns out this is the speed it will run, then TiVo made an extraordinarily stupid move in designing the platform and/or software on it.

Either way, there's a very unfortunate common theme in there. And that is what is sad.

[SnakeEyes]

Is it possible that part of the slowness is because of developer and debugging hooks?

[jmpage2]

Is it possible that part of the slowness is because of developer and debugging hooks?

They would normally not use such a build to show off the product, although it is possible that they have shown it off prior to doing a "final scrub" to further optimize it for speed.

If blazing speed is what you need then an HTPC will run rings around a TiVo (even this new S4 box).

On the other hand, a PC is always going to be a PC (and not a TiVo).

[tivogurl]

Is it possible that part of the slowness is because of developer and debugging hooks?
You should be fired if you haven't figured out by your first year in business that when doing customer demos you should leave out anything that could cast doubt on the product unless you're certain it makes no visible difference.

[heySkippy]

I'd like to say that even though I'm not happy about the Flash thing, I do wish TiVo success. We're a loyal longtime TiVo family and don't want to switch.

[rainwater]

I'd like to say that even though I'm not happy about the Flash thing, I do wish TiVo success. We're a loyal longtime TiVo family and don't want to switch.

As a TiVo user, why would you even care about it using flash? My guess is 99% of users will never know that it is using flash nor would they care. Did you know it was using C before? Did you know what UI library they were using for the UI? It is doubtful.

[SnakeEyes]

Because using Flash kills puppies

[orangeboy]

Because using Flash kills puppies

and kittens.

[Stormspace]

Because using Flash kills puppies

Using h.264 makes you a slave to Steve. :)

[SnakeEyes]

But then I'm harming no one but myself!

[ZeoTiVo]

But then I'm harming no one but myself!

You are a puppy?

[SnakeEyes]

You are a puppy?

slave to steve would be self harm.

[wierdo]

Using MS and Adobe makes you "free"? :rolleyes: Now that's a laugh! I think there is a fanboy present in this discussion and it's not the people who like their Apple products.
At least Microsoft gives you the choice. If you had asked me 10 or 15 years ago if I would ever defend Microsoft, I would have laughed at you and said "not on my life." It's shocking how the tables have turned. People used to refuse to acknowledge how Microsoft was abusing their customers. Now the Apple users are doing exactly the same thing.

Apple's newfound idiocy only reinforces my position that people who choose to use closed platforms might as well be punching themselves in the face. On both my phone and my laptop, there isn't anyone in the world who can tell me what legal software or content I may or may not put on it or what software a third party may or may not write.

All this talk about Flash ads, poor Flash performance on various OSes and all the other noise is like saying that the RealMedia codec was crappy because Real chose to load the player down with adware. You're complaining about how people use it, not its design or functionality.

And FWIW, Flash 10 runs great on my 4 year old Ubuntu laptop, and magically I never see annoying Flash ads, although that has nothing to do with TiVo.

[SnakeEyes]

MS gives you a choice with what?

[wierdo]

MS gives you a choice with what?
They give you the choice of running whatever software you like on their mobile OS. :rolleyes:

[druniverse]

Apple wants html5, an open standard, instead of the lazy, bloated, resource hogging closed Flash development. I'm going to side with Apple.

No. Apple wants a web built on Cocoa apps built on Apple's platform using Apple's App Store. Apple could really care less about HTML5.

Have you noticed that almost every big site makes a dedicated iPhone app rather than using the browser in the iPhone?

Cocoa is far more closed than Flash.

[Mike-Mike]

Because using Flash kills puppies

best post ever

[jmpage2]

No. Apple wants a web built on Cocoa apps built on Apple's platform using Apple's App Store. Apple could really care less about HTML5.

Have you noticed that almost every big site makes a dedicated iPhone app rather than using the browser in the iPhone?

Cocoa is far more closed than Flash.

Apple hasn't demonstrated that. In fact, if someone wants to build a "free app" for the iPhone/itouch all they have to do is build it in HTML, Apple has done nothing to stop this.

In fact, Apple has also done nothing to build an App store for Macs in any way/shape/form which if the conspiracy is to be believed would have happened by now.

What Apple wants to do is sell you content, whether that content is an application, a song, video or movie.

However, you can still rip your own music, movies or tv-shows and put them on the iPhone/iTouch/iPad. You can also find thousands of highly useful free apps for download too.

Where Apple has chosen to take a stand is in the running of sandboxed apps on their platform and I laud them for doing so. I'll take the "restrictions" and in trade get a rock solid platform that rarely, if ever crashes, doesn't start to slow down until I reboot, or get infected with a virus.

If that puts me "in jail" then I like being "in jail" since in jail I get great reliability and all of the apps I could ever want.

[Adam1115]

64-bit is nice for the hobby PC user who wants 4+ GB of RAM but it's not wide spread enough to justify spending lots of money of development.

ROFL!

Ask Cisco Systems one of the world's largest IT companies. They have a VPN client that won't work in a 64-bit environment.

My Cisco AnyConnect VPN client works perfectly fine with 64-bit... Maybe you need to finally upgrade that old obsolete PIX firewall...?

[Adam1115]

How/When did Adobe lack support for iPhone - that is an Apple decision, especially on the iPad which has MORE than enough power to run Flash.

IE64 - agree that it should be there but since IE32 is included and it works why the rush to make the 64-bit work?

64-bit is nice for the hobby PC user who wants 4+ GB of RAM but it's not wide spread enough to justify spending lots of money of development. Ask Cisco Systems one of the world's largest IT companies. They have a VPN client that won't work in a 64-bit environment.

Oh and actually, Cisco's normal VPN client version 5.0.7 works with Windows 7 64-bit too. ;)

[daveak]

256K is all you will ever need anyway... ;)

Home computers will never be more than a niche market... ;)

The vision of SOME people. Guess who?

(My quotes might just be a little off)

Closed architecture is self limiting. Flash will help TiVo be more open and easier for others to add apps to and help expand TiVo offerings.

[gweempose]

Closed architecture is self limiting. Flash will help TiVo be more open and easier for others to add apps to and help expand TiVo offerings.+1 :up: