"Inventing the DVR was just a warmup"

[innocentfreak]

I wouldn't be surprised if the announcement is disappointing. Listening to the latest EngadgetHD podcast where they spent 10 minutes on the subject also I found myself agreeing with them that TiVo just needs to do too many things that are very unlikely to happen for people to not be disappointed. This is especially true with how slow they are to move forward with new offerings.

While a new UI could potentially be exciting and the potential for faster transfers/streaming could be also, it wouldn't renew my faith in TiVo and stop me from looking elsewhere for better solutions for recording TV.

[jvandecar]

Blockbuster and TiVo merge.

[bwld123]

Blockbuster and TiVo merge.

never

[keirgrey]

Blockbuster and TiVo merge.*hums the chorus to a Billy Joel tune* "And we will all go down together."

[Mikeyis4dcats]

Agreed... Vuze is a nice alternative. I will note that my TivoHD choked on a Vuze-delivered video at one point, and completely crashed and rebooted the machine in the process. I ended up watching it on the PS3 instead with no issues...

I presume you're having better luck than I did with Vuze to TivoHD?

I've watched a dozen or so files....works great.

[ozdoc]

Blockbuster and TiVo merge.

They've just announced an annulment of their relationship here in Australia.
Blockbuster is formally moving out on March 5th and going their own way.

[innocentfreak]

hmm wonder if that is due to the March 2nd announcement.

[netringer]

They've just announced an annulment of their relationship here in Australia.
Blockbuster is formally moving out on March 5th and going their own way.
I thought Blockbuster already had the direct-to-PC streaming service as NetFlix did. TiVo just made it compatible.

[ozdoc]

I thought Blockbuster already had the direct-to-PC streaming service as NetFlix did.

Not on our side of the planet..

[BigJimOutlaw]

Amazon has cut prices but still has stock and I don't know of anyway to see how many they actually have.

Minor update... FWIW, as of this post Amazon's listing shows "Only 5 left in stock--order soon" on the regular THDs. Plenty of other merchants are still listed, but I guess their own stock is dwindling.

Stock sometimes re-appears, but that's the story at the moment.

[hoyty]

I am wondering if it might be something like a home DVR server with lower cost streaming extenders for MRV. This would allow for lower cable costs since you could have a single Cable Card. Also if the extenders streamed instead of copied it would get around the Copy Never flag problem that some have. If it were something like this the question would be would TiVo try to profit of the hardware of extenders or a monthly fee per extender?

I am waiting for the new cable card tuners to be released to make a Windows 7 version of this with XBox 360.

[bschuler2007]

I get a cookie if I guess right.. but I am guessing it is gonna be a new RCN, Bestbuy, Tivo box all in one with just different badging and logo on menu screens based on a hardware id. It will have some new addons integrating Facebook, Tweets, etc..

It will run faster but....
The main new "feature" will be that it reads closed captioning for hashes that spring up flash based ads on the Tivo during tv programs product placements and ads during skip forward, etc.

Used TivoHD and Series 3 prices will skyrocket in the short term.

[Southcross]

I wish TiVo would tease more.fixed

I keep checking, at least weekly, for something... anything :mad:

*pleads to the TiVo gods* please let it be an inexpensive box with 320-500gb of recording space

[BigJimOutlaw]

Amazon is OOS. Funny next in-stock date.

http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y179/bigjimoutlaw1/amaztivo.jpg

[Southcross]

Amazon is OOS. Funny next in-stock date.

http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y179/bigjimoutlaw1/amaztivo.jpg

not sure if its the same one I'm seeing... but it appears that its been "de-inventoried" and only shows for sale from "alternative" sellers like Tiger Direct:
http://www.amazon.com/TiVo-TCD652160-Digital-Video-Recorder/dp/B000RZDBM2/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=electronics&qid=1266532985&sr=8-1

[AbMagFab]

not sure if its the same one I'm seeing... but it appears that its been "de-inventoried" and only shows for sale from "alternative" sellers like Tiger Direct:
http://www.amazon.com/TiVo-TCD652160-Digital-Video-Recorder/dp/B000RZDBM2/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=electronics&qid=1266532985&sr=8-1

Look at the lower right - it lists Amazon as 3/4.

[Southcross]

Look at the lower right - it lists Amazon as 3/4.

ahhh... nm

[treaty]

I keep seeing people say here that TiVo loses money on every box they sell - that they're taking a loss on the hardware in order to get subscribers.

Can someone substantiate this? At $12 a month for service - how many months do they need to keep a customer to re-coup their hardware loss?

The original price of the TiVo HD was $299. I mean what's inside the thing that adds up to more than that cost (from a hardware perspective)? You can get a DELL Zino HD box for $50 less than that - and it seems to me the Zino has a faster processor and more ram than a TiVo HD would have... not to mention there's the cost of a DVD drive and a Windows license rolled in there too (which would not be part of the TiVo HD overhead cost). Don't get me wrong, I'm not trying to compare the two - I'm just wondering what's in the TiVo HD that would make it's production cost so high?

[innocentfreak]

One of the costs which isn't inside the box is getting cable labs certification. Then there is the cost of the broadcom chipset. There is the cost of the hardware which TiVo most likely gets nowhere near the discount Dell does since they don't order in as large of bulk.

I don't believe anyone has a true breakdown on what the box actually costs TiVo and I want to say the loss on hardware was taken from some of the conference calls.

My guess would be they probably turn a profit under a year just based off the contract time. Don't forget they also have to pay for the guide data. Previously had to maintain the phonelines and everything else for daily calls for guide data though I would imagine some of this is cheaper now with broadband.

[bkdtv]

Can someone substantiate this? At $12 a month for service - how many months do they need to keep a customer to re-coup their hardware loss?Sure. Just look at TiVo's balance sheet. In the quarter ending October 31 (http://biz.yahoo.com/e/091210/tivo10-q.html), TiVo sold $14.4 million in hardware for $9.8 million. For every dollar in hardware sold, they spent $1.46.

The original price of the TiVo HD was $299. Keep in mind that the bulk of sales come at retail and through online vendors like Amazon.com. TiVo does not receive anything close to $299 on those sales. When the TiVo was released in 2007, Best Buy paid around $215 per unit, and they are surely paying less now. Amazon might pay $170 and TiVo would receive somewhat less after accounting for distribution costs.

If Amazon is paying $170 per box, that puts TiVo's cost at around $250.

I mean what's inside the thing that adds up to more than that cost (from a hardware perspective)?

TiVo specifications from stickied FAQ:
Broadcom BCM7401 DVR CPU (http://www.broadcom.com/collateral/pb/7401-PB04-R.pdf) w/ integrated MPEG-2, MPEG-4, and VC-1 decoders (Same CPU as the DirecTV HR21/22/23 and Dish ViP612 DVRs)
256MB DDR400 SDRAM (4x NANYA NT5DS32M16BS-5U)
160GB Western Digital WD1600AVBS (standard TivoHD); 1TB Western Digital WD10EVVS (TivoHD XL)
2x MicroTune MT2131 (http://www.microtune.com/pdf/Briefs/PB-00069.pdf) tuners
2x AMD Theater 314 QAM/VSB demodulators
2x Philips/NXT SAA7138CHL ADCs
1x VIXS XCode 2115 IC w/ dedicated 32MB DDR400 SDRAM (2x NANYA NT5DS8M16FS-5T) CableCard interface
2x MP@ML encoders
Silicon Image SiI5723 Dual SATA controller
Xilinx Spartan-3 XC3S200 FPGA
2x CableCard slots
A/V Inputs: 1x antenna coax, 1x cable coax (both split internally)
A/V Outputs: HDMI, component, s-video, composite, optical digital, stereo
10/100Mbps Ethernet
RJ45 phone jack
eSATA
2x USB
TiVo IR remote
16.5"W x 12.625"D x 3.375"H
9.0 lbs

[daveak]

Amazon is OOS. Funny next in-stock date.

http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y179/bigjimoutlaw1/amaztivo.jpg

Look who is teasing us now... :D Coincidence? Would not be the first time Amazon has let something slip about something. So the release date for hardware is March 4th? ;)

[innocentfreak]

That would definitely work for me.

It kind of bothers me though that they are reusing the same info so far almost like it is a re-release of the same model.

[Luckyp79]

I am not so sure that is a slip up. I mean it may just be coincidental or something. It looks like my TiVo HD and hat is what the product description says so I am not so sure of a slip up. I mean they are announcing something on the 2nd but does it have to be a new box? Most likely is but it doesn't have to be.

[BigJimOutlaw]

Some had suggested that March 2nd might bring only content or software announcements. I posted the Amazon listing just to show that the evidence of new hardware is slowly trickling in. (Amazon marked the XL as OOS briefly last week as well.) I think most of us already agree there will likely be new hardware. But for the few holdouts, the doubt should be fading.

The March 4th date could just be an innocent 2-week placeholder until their system gets the newest information (retire this model, new SKU on date xx/yy/zz). Can't read into it too closely yet, although a 3/4 shipment wouldn't draw complaints from me. ;)

[Luckyp79]

I am really pumped for this announcement. I am hoping big. I don't usually get excited for this type of stuff but for whatever reason this time I am.

I love the speculation around this one. This could change TV once again, or it could be the same run of the mill releases.

March 2nd here we come. TiVo announcement plus a video game release all on the same day.

[netringer]

I keep seeing people say here that TiVo loses money on every box they sell - that they're taking a loss on the hardware in order to get subscribers.

Can someone substantiate this? At $12 a month for service - how many months do they need to keep a customer to re-coup their hardware loss?

The original price of the TiVo HD was $299. I mean what's inside the thing that adds up to more than that cost (from a hardware perspective)? ...

For one thing Dell sells several million of each model just by having it. TiVo sells a few hundred thousand. So the economies of scale aren't the same. For another, Dell uses off the shelf components for the most part where TiVo only has a handful that aren't special made.

We can guess that TiVo gets a few bucks more than the subscriber fee, from advertising and more than that, any clicks the user makes to the special ad content and more than that, when they order. They also get paid for the stats by such as Nielsen. My guess is the ads and stats are a few cents per sub, but clicks are a few bucks per and orders are a lot more.

[BigJimOutlaw]

The March 4th date could just be an innocent 2-week placeholder...

Or not. Amazon's listing is completely removed now. Showing only other merchants.

[innocentfreak]

I wonder if Tivo clued them in since they do supposedly monitor this forum still even though they no longer post.

[CrispyCritter]

I keep seeing people say here that TiVo loses money on every box they sell - that they're taking a loss on the hardware in order to get subscribers.

Can someone substantiate this? At $12 a month for service - how many months do they need to keep a customer to re-coup their hardware loss?
They have custom chips on a custom motherboard, and they don't have their own assembling factories - manufacturing is contracted out. They don't have the volume to get cheap prices.

Just guessing from overall accounting figures, the cost of manufacture is about 30% more than revenue from manufacture. That's wholesale revenue which guessing at margins is probably a bit under $200. So that's about $50-$60 in extra costs. They report between $7-$8 in net revenue (above their costs for services) per sub per month, thus it takes 8 months of service to break even on the hardware cost (and start paying for overhead, research, and things like that).

My numbers could be way off; there's all kinds of things we don't know, like mixture of sales between retail and direct, and mixture of sales of types of TiVo (they make a profit on the HDXL), and what the wholesale price is.

Edit: whoops: I didn't see the posts on a new page and now see that bkdtv did the same analysis! Good to know that we ended up in the same ballpark, although he substantiated his figures much more thoroughly than I did. I do think there's a slight overestimation of costs - third quarter manufacturing costs are a bit higher than normal as they ramp up inventory for the holiday season.

[lew]

A couple of posters provided good information. You can also look at it from the commitment side. Tivo is sold with a 12 month commitment, cell phones generally have a 2 year commitment. That suggests tivo re-coups their hardware loss in under a year.



I keep seeing people say here that TiVo loses money on every box they sell - that they're taking a loss on the hardware in order to get subscribers.

Can someone substantiate this? At $12 a month for service - how many months do they need to keep a customer to re-coup their hardware loss?

[rainwater]

That suggests tivo re-coups their hardware loss in under a year.

It's really funny when people say things like this. It's like the break down of the iPad hardware cost. The cost of the hardware is only a portion of the entire operating costs. A lot of development and resources go into developing hardware and software. You can't just put out a date when TiVo recoups the hardware costs on a user because frankly, that isn't the value TiVo puts to it.

[netringer]

... That suggests tivo re-coups their hardware loss in under a year.

Although it applies less and less now, I like to point out that the network doesn't cost $0. In the days when every TiVo was dialing in, UUNet and others were getting something like $5 a month per sub from such as AOL and other ISPs and TiVo. Now that they connect more with broadband it's mostly the same IP infrastructure costs as having web sites.

[daveak]

On the Amazon March 4th date, could it be possible that it will be the same hardware released with a new UI and well updated software? I think this is less likely, but still within the realm of possibility. Many of us seem to think that the current S3 architecture could handle a full HD interface without much fuss. And other software teaks and changes could happen all at once.

Even less likely, but I would think still possible, would be just a 'new' software release on this date. Windows comes out with 'new' (don't want to argue how 'new' or just tweaked they really are) software every few years. Older comps can certainly run windows 7, just not as fast or maybe without every possible feature. I love speculating, but I can't believe it would be beyond the realm of possible offerings from TiVo.

Or maybe 'new' software for all series 3 type boxes, which would still be sold (at least for a little while), and also a newer faster model which has hardware that can make full use of the new software features. TiVo is really just a Linux based computer that saves media content to (a) hard drive(s).

I am starting to lean strongly towards some great new software, that may not work fully or certainly at its best, on the series 3 models. I think it is more likely TiVo will only sell new 'premier' type boxes though, I think they really need to offer as few models as possible to keep production costs down so selling more than two box types seems rather unlikely.

Either way, it is certainly fun to speculate.

[turbobozz]

I would rather have a simple, responsive UI than an HD UI with bells and whistles that is slow like TiVo Search.
I really don't want to see my S3 slow down anymore than it already is... I'd be seriously upset if TiVo forced a slower UI onto my S3.

[innocentfreak]

According to the tipsters the new ui started out as fixes for the series 3. Also it is supposed to be much faster similar to the series 2.

[dswallow]

It's really funny when people say things like this. It's like the break down of the iPad hardware cost. The cost of the hardware is only a portion of the entire operating costs. A lot of development and resources go into developing hardware and software. You can't just put out a date when TiVo recoups the hardware costs on a user because frankly, that isn't the value TiVo puts to it.

You can certainly put a date on when the average direct hardware costs per subscribed unit are recouped. It may not represent accounting for R&D, overhead and other development costs, but it's still a reasonably good thing to know. But it may have no direct relationship to any minimum commitment.

[DocNo]

The whole point of a DVR is to time shift your viewing so you can watch what you want to watch on your schedule.

Now you think people are all going to sit around and watch in real time so they can chat about it with their friends?!? You don't need a DVR to do that!


Hehe - yup!

Now I will admit the ability with Netflix on the Xbox 360 to hold MST3K style parties while everyone in a group watches the same film is cool - but I've only done it once - because it is very inconvenient to get everyone synced up to watch something, esp. something long like a movie, at the same time.

I can see people commenting on what they watch - but they can do that now without some fancy new paradigm :rolleyes:

[DocNo]

IBM & MS were developing OS/2 together. I thought that Windows was stolen by MS from the partnership MS and IBM had.

No, MS was developing Windows while also partnering with IBM on OS/2 - they then left IBM high and dry. Not that IBM is blameless - they made their own share of mistakes that prevented OS/2 from taking off.

[reubanks]

No, MS was developing Windows while also partnering with IBM on OS/2 - they then left IBM high and dry. Not that IBM is blameless - they made their own share of mistakes that prevented OS/2 from taking off.

While this is technically correct, Windows was in the works for years before the MS/IBM partnership and Windows 1.0 shipped just a couple of months after the partnership was signed. (It was announced about 2 years before the partnership.)

Randy

[AbMagFab]

Hehe - yup!

Now I will admit the ability with Netflix on the Xbox 360 to hold MST3K style parties while everyone in a group watches the same film is cool - but I've only done it once - because it is very inconvenient to get everyone synced up to watch something, esp. something long like a movie, at the same time.

I can see people commenting on what they watch - but they can do that now without some fancy new paradigm :rolleyes:

You're not reading what's being written here, and you're not understanding. It's not at all real-time viewing/chatting.

[Wil]

I thought that Windows was stolen by MS from the partnership MS and IBM had.Apple had given Microsoft, long pre-release, code for the GUI, and crates of Macintosh computers. They did not give the same to IBM.

[brewman]

All the hypothetical new features sound fantastic, but how about a DVR that doesn't lockup on a weekly basis for unknown (not hard drive related) issues.

[T1V0]

All the hypothetical new features sound fantastic, but how about a DVR that doesn't lockup on a weekly basis for unknown (not hard drive related) issues.

i've got a few of those

[T1V0]

You're not reading what's being written here, and you're not understanding. It's not at all real-time viewing/chatting.

it's still dumb though :p

[aaronwt]

All the hypothetical new features sound fantastic, but how about a DVR that doesn't lockup on a weekly basis for unknown (not hard drive related) issues.

I've got nine of those. It's called TiVo. I have three Series 3 and six TiVoHD boxes. No lockups here.

[Rob Helmerichs]

I've got nine of those. It's called TiVo. I have three Series 3 and six TiVoHD boxes. No lockups here.
But what do you do when there are more than 18 shows on that you want to record?!?

:D

[AbMagFab]

it's still dumb though :p

Said the old man, as everything passed him by... :rolleyes:

[innocentfreak]

Looking around online, I am thinking we are getting a version of Caspa which is supposed to go to the ad supported version in April 2010 for Australia with an updated Tivo with a 320gb drive. The reason behind the new Tivo hardware will also be cost cutting, but to improve the streaming to better implement this new VOD service.

But starting April next year, HybridTV plans on introducing an advertising module, which will allow you to download favorite TV shows for free, in return for watching three 30 second ads – one at the start, one in the middle, and one at the end of each episode. You’ll be able to choose between paying $1.95 or getting the ep with ads for free. What’s more, the ads will be interactive, allowing you to enter competitions or receive free stuff, depending on the advertiser’s wishes. You don’t have to interact, but you can if you want – it’ll just pause your show while you do.

Then again I may be completely off and just guessing based off boredom.

[aaronwt]

But what do you do when there are more than 18 shows on that you want to record?!?

:D

I use my USB PC tuners:)

[larrs]

I would think the new hardware will be announced as faster, with 1080p/24 support and a new HD UI. Then, the sky's the limit for new aps, among them I am hoping for Vudu and other 1080p services as well as some killer tie ins with networks, film studios, etc.

I would love on the fly conversion to mpeg4 as it records in order to effectively double capacity as well as make file sizes smaller to move around the house, but you tech experts can correct me if that is a real pipe dream on my part.

[DocNo]

You're not reading what's being written here, and you're not understanding. It's not at all real-time viewing/chatting.

Ok, but if you are talking within the confines of time-shifting, now you have major spoiler possibilities! Either way it's just not as feasible as I think some of you are imagining.

I just don't see it being that much of a special need over existing social media solutions that are already out there, and certainly not a compelling enough feature set to woo someone to Tivo vs. some other solution.

[wmcbrine]

I would love on the fly conversion to mpeg4 as it records in order to effectively double capacity as well as make file sizes smaller to move around the house, but you tech experts can correct me if that is a real pipe dream on my part.It's theoretically possible, but they're not going to do it.

[Luckyp79]

1080p/24 support.

I have never looked but I heard that if took a flashlight and looked at the display of the HD box that you would infact see 1080p as an option. Not that it is activated but it is in there. Like I said I never looked but I heard it is there. So if it is in there then its just a SW update away, right?

[BlackBetty]

9 more days!! I can't wait.

[lessd]

I have never looked but I heard that if took a flashlight and looked at the display of the HD box that you would infact see 1080p as an option. Not that it is activated but it is in there. Like I said I never looked but I heard it is there. So if it is in there then its just a SW update away, right?

I don't think its just software as I don't know where the TiVo is going to get 1080P material from at a bit rate that is equal to Blue Ray, 1080I can go as high as 19K bits/sec (about 8.5G/hour record space). Blue ray quality must be higher (only a guess on my part)

[Luckyp79]

I don't think its just software as I don't know where the TiVo is going to get 1080P material from at a bit rate that is equal to Blue Ray, 1080I can go as high as 19K bits/sec (about 8.5G/hour record space). Blue ray quality must be higher (only a guess on my part)

Even with a normal HD box from my cable company I would only get 1080i. I can see a HDUI being displayed in 1080p. Not necessary though. So I am not sure either where they would find content in 1080p.

[Brainiac 5]

Even with a normal HD box from my cable company I would only get 1080i. I can see a HDUI being displayed in 1080p. Not necessary though. So I am not sure either where they would find content in 1080p.Probably downloadable content (from something like Netflix, Blockbuster, Amazon, etc.).

[MichaelK]

1080p 24fps probably isn't going to be a vastly different bitrate than 1080i 60fps.

could be downloaded content. Could be that some cable movie channel at some point goes to 1080p 24fps (or they encode such that 'pulldown' correction would make 1080p 24fps looks good to match the original film)

[aaronwt]

I don't think its just software as I don't know where the TiVo is going to get 1080P material from at a bit rate that is equal to Blue Ray, 1080I can go as high as 19K bits/sec (about 8.5G/hour record space). Blue ray quality must be higher (only a guess on my part)

VUDU HDX titles look superb. the only thing better out there has been from a BD.

The VUDU HDX titles are 1080P24 MPEG4 encoded at a 9 to 10mbs bitrate.

[mfogarty5]

Ok, but if you are talking within the confines of time-shifting, now you have major spoiler possibilities! Either way it's just not as feasible as I think some of you are imagining.

I just don't see it being that much of a special need over existing social media solutions that are already out there, and certainly not a compelling enough feature set to woo someone to Tivo vs. some other solution.


DocNo,

I tried reasoning with AbMagFab, but it seems that after 3,400 posts he has forgotten the primary purpose of a DVR which is to time shift programming so that users can watch a program when they want to. He has gotten bored with watching recorded programming so he is searching for something "cool" and "magical".

By its very definition, time shifting of programming is incompatible with social networking no matter how many times he calls the group of us that disagrees with him a bunch of dinosaurs and relics of the past.

How many people on this board have had to tell friends and family NOT TO COMMUNICATE with them until at least 2 hours after games so that they don't ruin the suspense?!? That's anti-social networking!!

If TiVo spent anytime on social networking, then it was a colossal waste of shareholder resources.

I remember when people like AbMagFab said in 1999 that anyone who wasn't fully invested in tech stocks was a dinosaur too. :rolleyes:

TiVo needs to give people a reason to buy their product over renitng the cable company DVR which they can do on both the hardware and software fronts.

On the hardware front, they need to release a box that uses the latest broadcom chips that can upsacle all content to 1080p60 and has Moca built-in so that no additional wiring or wireless adapters are needed.

On the software front they need to revamp their dated GUI so that it is truly HD.

If they want something "cool" then they could have "apps" like recorded tv, Hulu, Amazon and Netflix. They also need to work with cable companies to let them use the SeaChange software to implement VOD on a TiVo without tru2way.

They also need to have multi-room streaming and scheduling.

What I listed are true features that will get people to buy a 3rd party DVR unlike this social networking nonsense which people can already do with their laptops and cell phones.

[nrc]

DocNo,

I tried reasoning with AbMagFab, but it seems that after 3,400 posts he has forgotten the primary purpose of a DVR which is to time shift programming so that users can watch a program when they want to. He has gotten bored with watching recorded programming so he is searching for something "cool" and "magical".

By its very definition, time shifting of programming is incompatible with social networking no matter how many times he calls the group of us that disagrees with him a bunch of dinosaurs and relics of the past.

For a feature like this to be compatible with time shifting that they would have to tag comments with a time code so that you would only see them at that time code. Of course that removes the interactivity of it if you're not watching at the same time. Trying to deal with comments from friends who are both ahead of and behind you while watching a show would be a mess even if it's made to avoid spoilers.

One use that I could see for this, assuming that it could be activated after the fact, would be the equivalent of director's commentary from people involved in the production, critics, etc.

[Wil]

the equivalent of director's commentaryFrom everybody who watched. That would be fun.

[Riverdome]

DocNo,


If TiVo spent anytime on social networking, then it was a colossal waste of shareholder resources.



I will disagree with this comment to an extent. I would like a way, through existing social networking tools OR otherwise, to recomend shows to friends and family. To me this is social networking. I don't need to be able to 'chat' other than to maybe include a line or two explaining why I'm recomending the show.

I suppose I'll even go a step further. If we can stream from Hulu or other non-network sources why not allow a friend to stream from my Tivo? Yes it uses my upload pipe (my problem) but would be a way to get that missed episode to a friend. I know, I know [/PIPE DREAM]

[innocentfreak]

I suppose I'll even go a step further. If we can stream from Hulu or other non-network sources why not allow a friend to stream from my Tivo? Yes it uses my upload pipe (my problem) but would be a way to get that missed episode to a friend. I know, I know [/PIPE DREAM]

The problem being then is your friend subscribed to that channel? If not should they still be able to see it? If so how do you handle commercials?

[mbalgeman]

The problem being then is your friend subscribed to that channel? If not should they still be able to see it? If so how do you handle commercials?
I actually think it's a fairly interesting idea and I think they would be able to do things to get the networks to agree.

For example, the TiVo knows what you are subscribed to at any given time because it's got the cable card in there, right? So TiVo could limit it to people that are authorized to watch the same channel as the show was recorded on. They could also limit the shows that can be transferred to shows that were recorded in the last 7 days, for instance. Then, they can put a auto-delete after 7 days flag on that program. And they could, additionally, make it so commercials couldn't be skipped for that show that was transferred out of the house.

For example, I missed the season opener of Survivor. I wanted to record it but forgot. I'm too lazy to find someone to get a copy from, so I just skip it and maybe just skip watching the whole season because I missed the opening episode. Instead, I would think that CBS would like it if I could get a copy of it from my brother, who didn't forget to record it. TiVo could make sure that I am able to watch the same CBS affiliate, thus allowing me to transfer the show the next day when I realize I missed recording it.

I would think that networks would generally agree to something like that. The problem is that they would probably need to get every network to agree to something like that and would probably need to get an agreement per show. For instance, I don't think the NFL would take too kindly to their shows being transferred around, even if the person receiving the game could have recorded it when it was on. So it would probably need to be on a series by series basis.

As far as the social networking stuff goes... There are lots of devices and services that "tweet" these days. Slacker can be setup to tweet when you "heart" a song or "ban" a song. I could see similar functionality from the TiVo. Tweet (or post to Facebook/whatever) when I setup a new season pass. Tweet when I give something a thumbs up/down. Tweet when I delete a season pass. That type of stuff. I wouldn't be into it, but I can see that being a pretty popular feature.

What I would see more useful, however, is more of the Netflix-like style of social "networking". If I could somehow setup some people as friends and when I'm looking at the details of a show/series see what those friends think of that series/movie etc, I think that would be useful. Allow me to look at my friend's ratings for shows. Maybe allow me to take a look at my friends queue, I mean, season pass list. That seems like a much more interesting route to me.

[ZeoTiVo]

I actually think it's a fairly interesting idea and I think they would be able to do things to get the networks to agree.
TiVo tried this with MRV when it was out - even limited to 10 friends setup in a list so it could not be used in a widespread way.
The NFL filed with the FCC as strongly opposed based on game blackouts and so forth. Content owners filed as strongly opposed based on their own stubborness to loosen the grip on content.

This would be a waste of TiVo resources as they would have a long, protracted legal battle no matter how many controls they put on the idea.

[solutionsetc]

For example, I missed the season opener of Survivor. I wanted to record it but forgot. I'm too lazy to find someone to get a copy from, so I just skip it and maybe just skip watching the whole season because I missed the opening episode. Instead, I would think that CBS would like it if I could get a copy of it from my brother, who didn't forget to record it. TiVo could make sure that I am able to watch the same CBS affiliate, thus allowing me to transfer the show the next day when I realize I missed recording it.

I would think that networks would generally agree to something like that… it would probably need to be on a series by series basis.

I think you give the networks too much credit. Replay TV did this a number of years ago and were sued out of existence for it. Of course Replay didn't bother to get the network's approval, but I find it difficult to believe the networks are interested in spending resources to make timeshifting their shows more convenient for DVR owners.

It used to be all about market share, and how it relates to advertising revenue. If that was the case now, I am truly puzzled why networks charge a fee for programming to cable companies. Now, it seems it is about squeezing money from any avenue they can get away with.

I would be willing to bet that if the networks did come up with a plan for sharing shows, there would be a per show fee involved, so why not just buy the show from iTunes or a similar service.

[netringer]

...The March 4th date could just be an innocent 2-week placeholder until their system gets the newest information (retire this model, new SKU on date xx/yy/zz). Can't read into it too closely yet, although a 3/4 shipment wouldn't draw complaints from me. ;)

Or not. Amazon's listing is completely removed now. Showing only other merchants.

Amazon and Amazon in other countries have been known to let the cat of the bag on new products until the listing is pulled - even invoking the wrath of His Steveness hisself. Amazon is so deeply automated they probably have a hard time marking listings for go live dates.

[ZeoTiVo]

It used to be all about market share, and how it relates to advertising revenue. If that was the case now, I am truly puzzled why networks charge a fee for programming to cable companies. Now, it seems it is about squeezing money from any avenue they can get away with.

so why not just buy the show from iTunes or a similar service.

you give the exact answer the cable companies are thinking of except tha tfrom their perspective it would be "why not just sell the show from iTunes or their own service.

I think we will see content anouncements(though TiVo has closely guarded what if anything it is) but it will be about getting more content options - not about trading content away

[mbalgeman]

This would be a waste of TiVo resources as they would have a long, protracted legal battle no matter how many controls they put on the idea.Correct. I covered most of this in my initial post. TiVo would need to ask permission instead of forgiveness to make anything like this work.

I think you give the networks too much credit. Replay TV did this a number of years ago and were sued out of existence for it. Of course Replay didn't bother to get the network's approval, but I find it difficult to believe the networks are interested in spending resources to make timeshifting their shows more convenient for DVR owners.Well, more and more networks are making their shows available in full on the internet with forced advertising. I think that we are close to networks realizing that they could force advertising on someone like a TiVo user to watch a show that they forgot to time-shift on their own TiVo. Perhaps the "fee" for allowing a transfer of this nature isn't a fee per show, but a instead a downloaded force advertisement from the network. Of coarse, this all become moot if something like Hulu on TiVo becomes reality or the networks create their own content delivery service that TiVo can tap into.

BTW, I doubt the announcement will have anything to do with anything like this...

[ZeoTiVo]

Correct. I covered most of this in my initial post. TiVo would need to ask permission instead of forgiveness to make anything like this work.
I saw that, but even asking would be a waste of time.

Now getting feeds from abc.com or nbc.com straight to the TiVo - that would be a win-win assuming TiVo and the content owner could come to workable terms for both sides

[solutionsetc]

you give the exact answer the cable companies are thinking of except tha tfrom their perspective it would be "why not just sell the show from iTunes or their own service.

Except for the fact that I am looking to purchase as little as possible from my cable company due to their lousy service and the way their pricing structure is designed to nickel and dime you to death. I pay for four outlets, but live alone. What is the sense in that?

In fact, nothing would give me greater satisfaction than giving Comcast the entire heave ho but unfortunately, I am married to them for my Internet pipe because there is no other provider in my area.

[AbMagFab]

By its very definition, time shifting of programming is incompatible with social networking no matter how many times he calls the group of us that disagrees with him a bunch of dinosaurs and relics of the past.

No it's not. There is nothing that says "social networking is real time". I have no idea where you are getting your frame of reference, but it sounds like either being stuck in time, or a lack of understanding of the medium.

I remember when people like AbMagFab said in 1999 that anyone who wasn't fully invested in tech stocks was a dinosaur too. :rolleyes:
I think a more relevent example was 4 years ago when people said "a cell phone should be just for making phone calls - no one wants applications on them! People can just use their laptop for that!"

What I listed are true features that will get people to buy a 3rd party DVR unlike this social networking nonsense which people can already do with their laptops and cell phones.
Thanks for making my point.

The reason you sound like a "relic" (your term, not mine) is that you are making statements saying that the current state of social networking is the end state. That Facebook and Twitter is "it". That it will never change, never adapt, and as a result, Tivo should stay away from it.

I've tried multiple times to help you open your mind a little, but that seems an impossible task. A few people here who posted responses seem to get it, which is great.

But there's also a big reason why <1% of the population is capable of being leaders and instituting real change...

[ZeoTiVo]

Except for the fact that I am looking to purchase as little as possible from my cable company due to their lousy service and the way their pricing structure is designed to nickel and dime you to death. I pay for four outlets, but live alone. What is the sense in that?

In fact, nothing would give me greater satisfaction than giving Comcast the entire heave ho but unfortunately, I am married to them for my Internet pipe because there is no other provider in my area.

except that your complaint, which is legitimate to you, is not a reason for Comcast to stop trying to get revenue from any source of content they provide.

It is a bummer, but there it is.

[solutionsetc]

except that your complaint, which is legitimate to you, is not a reason for Comcast to stop trying to get revenue from any source of content they provide.

Granted, but the key word here is "provide". Which doesn't always mean the same thing as pass along. I don't mind paying for the pipe, what bugs me is having to be forced into tiers of service in which I'm paying for a lot of services I don't use.

I live in hope that the FTC will eventually remove the stranglehold that cable companies have on customers who have literally no other alternative and be able to purchase only the services that I actually use… preferably from the "providers" themselves.

[MichaelK]

Granted, but the key word here is "provide". Which doesn't always mean the same thing as pass along. I don't mind paying for the pipe, what bugs me is having to be forced into tiers of service in which I'm paying for a lot of services I don't use.

I live in hope that the FTC will eventually remove the stranglehold that cable companies have on customers who have literally no other alternative and be able to purchase only the services that I actually use… preferably from the "providers" themselves.

It’s not clear to me that such a thing would for sure be “better”.
Who knows what prices channels would need to charge if only the people that actually cared about that channel where to pay for it? It might mean scores of channels going out of business because the price they would HAVE to charge to stay in business wouldn’t be borne by the consumers. (it may not just be the knitting channel that folds- people might love their RSN’s but instead of 2 bucks for every cable household they might need to charge $10 bucks for the ones that actually want it- if it was 10 bucks would that drive demand down and then the price would be 15 bucks a month? And the death spiral would begin)

So in the end rather than watching 15 of 300 channels for 60 bucks we might wind up with only 10 channels we watch surviving for 50 bucks.

Of course it might up that the 15 channels my family wants survive and we only way 15 bucks for them all, but who knows what such a huge change might bring.

I guess the limited a la carte offered by Sirius/xm might be some kind of an indicator of how things might work out….


all that said- I think I could get by with just my RSN (even if it was say 20 bucks) and OTA. But who knows what the broadband price would be without a triple play package...

[rainwater]

Who knows what prices channels would need to charge if only the people that actually cared about that channel where to pay for it? It might mean scores of channels going out of business because the price they would HAVE to charge to stay in business wouldn’t be borne by the consumers.

This is the most likely scenario. There are lots of cable channels who rely on cable company fees to stay afloat and not ad revenue alone. So the smaller cable channels would end up getting pushed out of ala carte pricing because I doubt they would be able to charge a premium fee.

[MickeS]

What I listed are true features that will get people to buy a 3rd party DVR unlike this social networking nonsense which people can already do with their laptops and cell phones.

They can get ALL of what you list by using the "free" cable DVR. What you listed are features that wouldn't even get the CEO of Comcast to buy TiVo, and I bet he has enough money to do it. ;) OK, the networking part maybe, but they have that NOW and it's not enough. Better tech simply is not enough to get people to buy.

If there's ANYTHING that the last 10 years have shown us when it comes tech it's... I'll let you answer. What would you say has been the major revolution in how people use technology over the last decade?

[solutionsetc]

This is the most likely scenario. There are lots of cable channels who rely on cable company fees to stay afloat and not ad revenue alone. So the smaller cable channels would end up getting pushed out of ala carte pricing because I doubt they would be able to charge a premium fee.

It’s not clear to me that such a thing would for sure be “better”.
Who knows what prices channels would need to charge if only the people that actually cared about that channel where to pay for it? It might mean scores of channels going out of business because the price they would HAVE to charge to stay in business wouldn’t be borne by the consumers.

Well guys… I guess that's kind of my point. I'm not interested in subsidizing a bunch of crappy cable channels, whose sole purpose is to continually run reruns of lousy TV shows that didn't make it past one or two seasons in the first place. For people that want all this junk, let them pay for it. I don't need it or want it, and I'm certainly not interested in paying for any of it.

I may be in the minority here, not wanting 100 different channels to surf through, but I'm guessing a lot of DVR users feel similarly.

[MickeS]

Well guys… I guess that's kind of my point. I'm not interested in subsidizing a bunch of crappy cable channels, whose sole purpose is to continually run reruns of lousy TV shows that didn't make it past one or two seasons in the first place. For people that want all this junk, let them pay for it. I don't need it or want it, and I'm certainly not interested in paying for any of it.

I may be in the minority here, not wanting 100 different channels to surf through, but I'm guessing a lot of DVR users feel similarly.

I'm with you 100%. The vast majority of cable channels don't deserve to be propped up by package pricing.

[ZeoTiVo]

I live in hope that the FTC will eventually remove the stranglehold that cable companies have on customers who have literally no other alternative and be able to purchase only the services that I actually use… preferably from the "providers" themselves.

there is no stranglehold, the NFL could decide to not do another contract when the current one expires and instead just provide all football content via the web. It is their content after all.

Same with cooking channel
same with golf, etc..

cable provides the most households and ease for people viewing the content, that is the true strnaglehold. Hopefully TiVo can continue its work on making broadband content just as easy to view as a cable channel.

if you choose to continue to pay for the upper tiers then why should the cable company choose to do anything different?

[MichaelK]

Well guys… I guess that's kind of my point. I'm not interested in subsidizing a bunch of crappy cable channels, whose sole purpose is to continually run reruns of lousy TV shows that didn't make it past one or two seasons in the first place. For people that want all this junk, let them pay for it. I don't need it or want it, and I'm certainly not interested in paying for any of it.

I may be in the minority here, not wanting 100 different channels to surf through, but I'm guessing a lot of DVR users feel similarly.

I would imagine that just about every last one of us doesn't give a crap about 100 channels. We all probably want 10-20 channels. I'm pretty sure thjere are polls/.studies that show that most people dont watch more than a handful or 2 of channels.

The problem is it's so fragmented so who knows what 10 channels should survive.

you have your 10, I have my 10, and everyone else has their own 10 and they generally dont overlap too much.

[MichaelK]

I'm with you 100%. The vast majority of cable channels don't deserve to be propped up by package pricing.

unless it's a channel you happen to enjoy of course... ;)

[solutionsetc]

if you choose to continue to pay for the upper tiers then why should the cable company choose to do anything different?

That is the whole point. I don't have a choice if I want ESPN; I have to subscribe to a tier with a 150 other crap channels that I don't even want in my guide (which is one of the reasons I chose TiVo).

AFAIAC… no choice = stranglehold. How would you feel if the only place you could buy groceries only sold pineapple in a big fruit basket that was loaded with pomegranates, kiwi, and dates… and of all of that you only like pineapple.

Of course I can go to another grocery store. But if I tell ComCast to go pound sand I can watch nothing… or just get internet and pay an extra $20/month for it because that is what they charge if you aren't also a cable subscriber. To me that sounds an awful lot like if you were buying electricity and gas from PG&E and decided to invest in solar and discontinue the electrical, that you would be charged half again as much for the gas you would continue to purchase.

The PUC wouldn't let them get away with that and I think the PUC needs to take another long look at cable operators in markets where they are the ONLY game in town. Actually, the whole Cable Cos are not utilities thing has always escaped me as they have the exact same market advantages as a utility… at least in my market they do.

[solutionsetc]

unless it's a channel you happen to enjoy of course... ;)

But majority rules. If there is a great show you love, but the majority of J6P TV watchers don't "get it", you're show is gonna be going away soon. Why should it be any different with cable channels?

Economics 101: supply and demand. But with cable packages demand is artificial and arbitrary.

[ZeoTiVo]

That is the whole point. I don't have a choice if I want ESPN; I have to subscribe to a tier with a 150 other crap channels that I don't even want in my guide (which is one of the reasons I chose TiVo).

it is ESPN that chose to make a deal with cable companies versus some other means of delivery (and is a bad example since it comes on extended basic cable)

The Government agencies really need to do little here. Market forces will prevail and the content owners are finding broadband available enough now to explore other avenues of delivery that cut out the middleman in the form of cable channels. Still it is important to note that it is ESPN that wants to be in the cable package as they see revenue in being placed that way.

anyway this is enough off topic that I am done posting about it here.

[MichaelK]

But majority rules. If there is a great show you love, but the majority of J6P TV watchers don't "get it", you're show is gonna be going away soon. Why should it be any different with cable channels?

Economics 101: supply and demand. But with cable packages demand is artificial and arbitrary.

if all you watch is the same as joe six pack- then why do you even have "cable TV"? The majority of what people watch is on the broadcast networks.

I'm all about the market working, but cable has developed into something totally different at this point. It's not at all market based and becasue of that a bunch of niche things have developed that people seem to enjoy.

There's like 10 news channels- so even if fox gets 50% of the market- that means half the people done want to watch that but rather would want something else. If we got rid of the current system- maybe 50% of the news watchers would be unhappy becasue only fox might survice.

The reasons why this happened dont really matter- the system we have is the system we have. So if there were some wholesale change things would be vastly different- and I'm not sure that people would like it any better- that's all.

as I said above- I think i could "get by" with just OTA and tivo's streaming partners, and then paying a la carte for my RSN.

But If my RSN costs 20 bucks, and my cable bill only goes down 30 bucks (becasue I dont have triple play so I loose that bundle price), I'm not sure I'm vastly better off to save 10 dollars a month but wind up giving up 500 channels of drivel that I might pick up a show a day between 'em.

and in the end I think that the internet and streaming is going to kill off the whole cable tier nonsense anyway- so it's really only a matter of time in my head. I guess the question at that point is if Disney sells in "bundles" still or do they let people buy JUST ESPN or JUST Disney channel?

[lessd]

TiVo is now packing the TiVo premiere Cable Card sheet in most of the newer TiVo-HD TiVos. From this sheet TiVo is going to introduce the TiVo Premiere and the TiVo Premiere XL (There is now only one manual for both the TiVo-HD and TiVo-HDXL). This new TiVo MUST use the M type CableCard, and as reported before no phone jack, visible fan, SVHS jack, and only a back single Cable Card slot. The pictures on this sheet of the UI looks the same as we have now. The height of the box is about 1/2 inch less than the TiVo-HDs 3 inches.
I guess we will know for sure in a week

[brewman]

I've got nine of those. It's called TiVo. I have three Series 3 and six TiVoHD boxes. No lockups here.

I've got one. Unfortunately, that's only a 33% success rate since I have 2 TiVo HD's and one Series 3. The Series 3 is the one that doesn't lock up.

This is a longtime problem that for whatever reason TiVo hasn't addressed. Here's one of many threads relating to the problem: TiVo HD Lockups (http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?t=418924)

[innocentfreak]

Per engadgethd new tivo premiere will be 299 and xl will be 499 per best buy computers and they are showing march 27th as the day. I am on my phone so I cant link the post.

[janry]

http://www.engadget.com/photos/best-buy-tivo-premiere-info/#2742404

1080P support

only a 90 day warranty (parts & labour). that doesn't sound right.

[fatlard]

Does on-demand indicate some type of Tru2Way?

[Scyber]

http://www.engadget.com/photos/best-buy-tivo-premiere-info/#2742404

1080P support

only a 90 day warranty (parts & labour). that doesn't sound right.

Also looks like a 320GB harddrive on the Premiere. The Premiere XL appears to be 1TB just like the TivoHDXL.

[dig_duggler]

Ugh. Bigger hard drive, new UI and 1080p support (which no one broadcasts in)? Not many game changers there....

[janry]

Ugh. Bigger hard drive, new UI and 1080p support (which no one broadcasts in)? Not many game changers there....

and, apparently on-demand capability.

I'll stick with my HD.

[dig_duggler]

They've already got on-demand capability don't they (Amazon, youtube, etc)? So far the new stuff seems to be physical and a new UI.....

[janry]

They've already got on-demand capability don't they (Amazon, youtube, etc)?

Maybe that is what they mean. I was thinking more of cable TV on-demand.

EDIT: Yeah, it says "connects to your cable service and replaces your cable box" as a bullet point and right below that bullet says "To provide you access to a large selection on on-demand movies..."

Might be not what I'm thinking but this also might be a British box.

[lew]

You're (we're) not the subscribers getting screwed with the present system. The 150 crap channels we don't want cost the cable system little (or nothing) Some shopping and religious channels pay the cable company. Other channels charge so little cable inserted advertising offsets all (or almost all) of the costs.

A customer who has no interest in sports is getting screwed. ESPN and regional sport channels cost real money.



That is the whole point. I don't have a choice if I want ESPN; I have to subscribe to a tier with a 150 other crap channels that I don't even want in my guide (which is one of the reasons I chose TiVo).

AFAIAC… no choice = stranglehold. How would you feel if the only place you could buy groceries only sold pineapple in a big fruit basket that was loaded with pomegranates, kiwi, and dates… and of all of that you only like pineapple.

Of course I can go to another grocery store. But if I tell ComCast to go pound sand I can watch nothing… or just get internet and pay an extra $20/month for it because that is what they charge if you aren't also a cable subscriber. To me that sounds an awful lot like if you were buying electricity and gas from PG&E and decided to invest in solar and discontinue the electrical, that you would be charged half again as much for the gas you would continue to purchase.

The PUC wouldn't let them get away with that and I think the PUC needs to take another long look at cable operators in markets where they are the ONLY game in town. Actually, the whole Cable Cos are not utilities thing has always escaped me as they have the exact same market advantages as a utility… at least in my market they do.

[BlackBetty]

Ugh. Bigger hard drive, new UI and 1080p support (which no one broadcasts in)? Not many game changers there....

Lets wait till March 2nd before we decide.

[dig_duggler]

Lets wait till March 2nd before we decide.

Totally. This is just a speculation thread :) But if that's the extent of the new, ugh.

[That Don Guy]

That is the whole point. I don't have a choice if I want ESPN; I have to subscribe to a tier with a 150 other crap channels that I don't even want in my guide (which is one of the reasons I chose TiVo).

AFAIAC… no choice = stranglehold. How would you feel if the only place you could buy groceries only sold pineapple in a big fruit basket that was loaded with pomegranates, kiwi, and dates… and of all of that you only like pineapple.

How would you like it if you liked pomegranates, kiwis, dates, and pineapples, but each one was "home delivery only" from separate companies and each had a separate delivery charge?

If you want a cable company to provide "pay by the channel" service, I can pretty much guarantee there will be an "overhead charge" that, coincidentally, happens to equal what you are paying for the "150 channels" now - and then you have to pay for the channels you want on top of that.

-- Don

[dswallow]

I love how one model is 19 5/8" wide and 12 5/8" deep and the other model is 19.6" wide and 12.6" deep.

[daveak]

http://www.businessweek.com/news/2010-02-25/tivo-may-offer-set-top-box-that-combines-web-fare-tv-listings.html

Rumors of extended search capabilities.

The product may let subscribers locate programs at sites including Google Inc.’s YouTube and Amazon.com Inc., and on streaming services such as Netflix Inc., said Wible, who is based in Philadelphia. The results would be displayed with broadcast, cable TV and pay-per-view listings, he said.

“You will see us talk about a stunning new way to make the process of finding and selecting video a truly wonderful experience for the consumer,” Chief Executive Officer Tom Rogers said yesterday in an interview. He declined to elaborate.

TiVo plans to announce “significant news” at an event on March 2 in New York, Mike Boccio, a spokesman, said in an e-mail this week. Comcast Corp. and DirecTV are beginning to offer high-definition DVR service from the company, which also sells recorders in stores. TiVo already sells devices that can access Web sites.

[That Don Guy]

Does on-demand indicate some type of Tru2Way?
Doubtful - if you go to the TiVo main website, one of the things they advertise is "Amazon On Demand".

Does anybody even know if Tru2Way on a TiVo would work with most of the existing cable systems?

(Meanwhile, Comcast appears to be getting its own OnDemand system closer to TiVo; there's still just the one rewind and one FF speed, and no frame advance, but reportedly they are adding five-minute interval skipping, which is good when you are interrupted 90 minutes into watching something, can't get back to it within 24 hours (so the "resume" feature is no longer available), and don't want to wait 9-10 minutes for the FF to reach the spot.)

-- Don

[jmpage2]

Expectations are so high at this point that it's inevitable there are going to be people let down.

It's just a question of how many are let down and how far they fall.

TiVo doesn't help when they put out a press invite in which they are basically thumping their chest and telling us all how bad ass they think they are.

The reality is that they've been coasting on patents and work done a decade ago for a long time now. I say this as someone who genuinely loves his TiVos but has been getting increasingly frustrated with TiVos failure to embrace new technologies such as place-shifting (streaming!), more internet content delivery, better integration with media on home servers, integration with 3rd party devices for related content display (iPad, android, etc!) and so on.

The future of TV distribution is not going to be via a cable card. It's going to be subscription to specific channels or media companies that package internet delivered programs together for a fee. Pay a higher fee and get your favorite shows without advertising.

Unfortunately there is no indicator whatsoever that TiVo "gets" this or is prepared for the shift from the content package from a single provider model to a model in which the content is all over the place.

Let's hope I'm wrong and that the best they can do isn't to show us that we can get Hulu on the Tivo now.

[ZeoTiVo]

The reality is that they've been coasting on patents and work done a decade ago for a long time now. I say this as someone who genuinely loves his TiVos but has been getting increasingly frustrated with TiVos failure to embrace new technologies such as place-shifting (streaming!), more internet content delivery, better integration with media on home servers, integration with 3rd party devices for related content display (iPad, android, etc!) and so on. not sure what reality you have been living in but here on earth TiVo has Netflix and Amazon delivered in HD right to the box. Also other internet content and You tube as its own app. Alos they are the only DVR that can move content to a PC or pull it back from a PC with an open SDK involved that let 3rd parties write their own app. Heck you could pull bitorrents to the TiVo via a PC. I was watching shows from the TiVo on my smartphone 3 years ago. The only knock on TiVo is no DLNA support to include more devices and the copy protection that cable labs made them honor. These issues are about their business/legal environment and not there innovation. In short TiVo is ahead in IPTV delivery and made it so simple my 11 year old can pick up the remote and watch a Movie from my PC or Netflix on the TiVo in the playroom without the slightest issue and while staying in the now playing menu.

Unfortunately there is no indicator whatsoever that TiVo "gets" this or is prepared for the shift from the content package from a single provider model to a model in which the content is all over the place. seriously? Have you not seen TiVo search - I can go in there right now today and lookup "Lost" - I can record from cable, I can buy or rent from Amazon as a download or I can stream it right away from Netflix. Also I can check out some You Tube stuff about Lost. Sounds like ease of finding content from all over the place to me. And that is the Beta - they sound ready to announce an interface even better than TiVCo Search. :up:


PS - I would love Hulu on TiVo - tons of good media that is all free - nice.

[morac]

(Meanwhile, Comcast appears to be getting its own OnDemand system closer to TiVo; there's still just the one rewind and one FF speed, and no frame advance, but reportedly they are adding five-minute interval skipping, which is good when you are interrupted 90 minutes into watching something, can't get back to it within 24 hours (so the "resume" feature is no longer available), and don't want to wait 9-10 minutes for the FF to reach the spot.)

Comcast added that in my area already. Supposedly it also works on their DVR recordings, but I don't have one of those. Actually all of Comcast's "new" DVR features (http://www.comcast.net/newguide/#myDVR%20Manager) (Wish Lists, auto-correction, recording history, folders and skip ahead/back) are blatant copies of TiVo features. I'm assuming this was allowed because of Comcast's partnership with TiVo.

The one things that Comcast does better than TiVo is online DVR management.

[morac]

Let's hope I'm wrong and that the best they can do isn't to show us that we can get Hulu on the Tivo now.

That's never going to happen in Hulu's current form. TPTB don't want people watching Hulu on their TV. If they did, they wouldn't have blocked Hulu on the PS3.

That may change when Comcast takes over NBC, since Comcast and TiVo are "buddies", but even then Comcast isn't going to give TiVo something without getting something in return (see my post above).

[jmpage2]

not sure what reality you have been living in but here on earth TiVo has Netflix and Amazon delivered in HD right to the box. Also other internet content and You tube as its own app. Alos they are the only DVR that can move content to a PC or pull it back from a PC with an open SDK involved that let 3rd parties write their own app. Heck you could pull bitorrents to the TiVo via a PC. I was watching shows from the TiVo on my smartphone 3 years ago. The only knock on TiVo is no DLNA support to include more devices and the copy protection that cable labs made them honor. These issues are about their business/legal environment and not there innovation. In short TiVo is ahead in IPTV delivery and made it so simple my 11 year old can pick up the remote and watch a Movie from my PC or Netflix on the TiVo in the playroom without the slightest issue and while staying in the now playing menu.

seriously? Have you not seen TiVo search - I can go in there right now today and lookup "Lost" - I can record from cable, I can buy or rent from Amazon as a download or I can stream it right away from Netflix. Also I can check out some You Tube stuff about Lost. Sounds like ease of finding content from all over the place to me. And that is the Beta - they sound ready to announce an interface even better than TiVCo Search. :up:


PS - I would love Hulu on TiVo - tons of good media that is all free - nice.

You can talk about the wonderful features that the TiVo has all you want. Personally I don't have the five minutes it takes to go into TiVo Search and try to type a few characters in and have something meaningful happen.

The hardware and UI are so slow and unresponsive at this point that we find it easier to get something on Netflix through the mail than deal with TiVo slowness.

Faster hardware will help. A better UI will help. But what will really help is TiVo making some real major strides in this area to dramatically shift the DVR landscape.

Playing the "me too" game with Boxee features like Hulu, etc, aren't going to cut it. We need some dramatic announcement such as a partnership with Comcast, TWC, etc, in which we can get a Tru-2-Way type delivery of service for on demand, not just from one provider but from MULTIPLE providers or better yet, from the networks themselves.

I would love to pay $29.99 for a season subscription to True Blood for example without having to pay $120 a year for the rest of the crap that HBO is shoveling.

In 20 years people are going to look back at tiered service subscriptions and laugh about it, because in all likelihood people will be paying the same money they are paying today, but for just the shows/stations/content they want, delivered with minimal ads. They won't have 90 channels of garbage that they are subsidizing just so that they can watch one or two 2nd tier channels that they can't get a la carte.

The tweeners and Gen XYs are already doing this, as they will simply torrent their shows into a media server and then watch them commercial free on a media extender. Obviously this is thievery and should be condemned, but the largest reason that it's being done is for CONVENIENCE over the 30 year old monopoly way of doing things.

The only ones that haven't caught on to this are content providers, distributors and the cable cos.

[ZeoTiVo]

You can talk about the wonderful features that the TiVo has all you want..
right, and that begs the question - how can you say TiVo does not have those features. They don't work the way you want - then get a PC.

For myself I can pull up lost Season 5 any show via TiVo search and be watching it in the space of 5 minutes at a leisurley pace. Heck, there are nights we take longer just to decide what we want to watch from out of all the options. 5 minutes is more than reasonable - if your TiVo takes longer than something is wrong with your setup or the TiVo.

Also if the networks would be willing to let their content download or stream to TiVo then TiVo would do it. You need to bark up the content provider's tree if you want their content.

Oh and can you please point out the company that you think is doing all you wnat now? Someone must be doing it if TiVo is behind and just not getting it, right?

[jmpage2]

right, and that begs the question - how can you say TiVo does not have those features. They don't work the way you want - then get a PC.

For myself I can pull up lost Season 5 any show via TiVo search and be watching it in the space of 5 minutes at a leisurley pace. Heck, there are nights we take longer just to decide what we want to watch from out of all the options. 5 minutes is more than reasonable - if your TiVo takes longer than something is wrong with your setup or the TiVo.

Ah yes, it couldn't be some other problem. It couldn't be throttle and buffer issues in the TiVo (with wired ethernet and a 30mb DOCSIS 3 modem) that result in Netflix HD content pausing once every few minutes for 30 seconds because TiVo has too small of a buffer to handle enough of the program to watch it from beginning to end. Note that this same Netflix HD content works perfectly on a PC or Mac (even over wireless). Must be my setup, right? :rolleyes: I have multiple TiVos and they all have slowness and buffering issues with Netflix ,slow show to show transfer over wired ethernet, etc... but hey, ya my boxes are all bad, that must be it! Operator error, that must be it! :rolleyes:

You apparently are living in some sort of alternate reality in which the series-3 is perfect, in which case I have to question your presence in a series-4 thread since you are so pleased as punch in series-3 land.

Stop being an apologist and realize that the issues with the Series-3 are issues that are affecting real consumers.

I highly doubt that you are streaming HD netflix content, etc, and not seeing the issues that have been reported by lots of people.... but, as I said, maybe you live in some alternate universe or something.

Maybe we should just look at FACTS and you can see that TiVo subscription base is continuing to shrink notably every year. This is because people are not seeing the value proposition of a TiVo over the crap-o box from their local Cable Co. Even if you are happy, obviously many consumers are not. You should be interested in what would make those consumers happy, as it will mean TiVo survives and you can continue your love fest with TiVo.

[Wil]

Netflix HD content pausing once every few minutes for 30 seconds because TiVo has too small of a buffer to handle enough of the program to watch it from beginning to end.With a slow internet connection I suppose that would happen. None of us in our local group have seen that problem, but most of us have decent cable internet service (though we all complain about it).

[jmpage2]

With a slow internet connection I suppose that would happen. None of us in our local group have seen that problem, but most of us have decent cable internet service (though we all complain about it).

I have 30MB/s DOCSIS 3.0. I have this problem on all of my TiVo series-3 boxes.

[morac]

Note that this same Netflix HD content works perfectly on a PC or Mac (even over wireless). Must be my setup, right? :rolleyes:

I'll point out that Netflix does not stream HD to PC's or Mac, only SD.

[lvthunder]

I would love to pay $29.99 for a season subscription to True Blood for example without having to pay $120 a year for the rest of the crap that HBO is shoveling.


So do what I do and get HBO when True Blood starts and turn it off when it ends a couple months later.

[ZeoTiVo]

Stop being an apologist and realize that the issues with the Series-3 are issues that are affecting real consumers.

not being an apologist - you are just not making any cogent arguments.
First you say TiVo does not get it - pointed out that umm - Tivo has tons of 3rd party content all availble one place from their BETA TiVo search already.

then you say - yeah but 20 years from now we will all laugh at having to subscribe to the tier for HBO to watch one series from it. Umm ok - TiVo does not have features yet from 20 years in the future and Netflix can not provide content that HBO has not released to DVD yet. Somehow that is a TiVo failing though?

then after you seem to realize your earlier arguments are no good you come out with - yeah but none of it works.
maybe it does not work at your house and I have idea why nor do I care to troubleshoot it - but at my house and many other houses Netflix works on TiVo -
Just 2 days ago I watched some Lost streaming from Netflix in HD and had no problems. Watched some Farscape before that, again with no problem.
I have downlaoded Amazon with little wait and I have a PC server full of Movies I can pull onto any TiVo in the house in way faster than real time on any TiVo/TV.

so sorry it does not work at your house with your magnificent setup but that is hardly a logical point in your argument that TiVo inc is behind in 3rd party content and does not get it

[Wil]

I have 30MB/s DOCSIS 3.0. I have this problem on all of my TiVo series-3 boxes.Then you do indeed have a problem. This is not normal. I have nowhere near that, plus I have jitter and momentary signal dropouts; it never shows up on the Tivos.

[daveak]

TiVo + NetFlix = Happiness.

Though I have heard of some issues, my experience has been very good. Though I think this comment really belongs in another thread.

What I've never understood is how people can have (near) identical TiVo setups and have such a different Netflix experience.

[lvthunder]

TiVo + NetFlix = Happiness.

Though I have heard of some issues, my experience has been very good. Though I think this comment really belongs in another thread.

What I've never understood is how people can have (near) identical TiVo setups and have such a different Netflix experience.

Not every internet connection is created equal. Speed isn't the only issue.

[jmpage2]

not being an apologist - you are just not making any cogent arguments.
First you say TiVo does not get it - pointed out that umm - Tivo has tons of 3rd party content all availble one place from their BETA TiVo search already.

then you say - yeah but 20 years from now we will all laugh at having to subscribe to the tier for HBO to watch one series from it. Umm ok - TiVo does not have features yet from 20 years in the future and Netflix can not provide content that HBO has not released to DVD yet. Somehow that is a TiVo failing though?

then after you seem to realize your earlier arguments are no good you come out with - yeah but none of it works.
maybe it does not work at your house and I have idea why nor do I care to troubleshoot it - but at my house and many other houses Netflix works on TiVo -
Just 2 days ago I watched some Lost streaming from Netflix in HD and had no problems. Watched some Farscape before that, again with no problem.
I have downlaoded Amazon with little wait and I have a PC server full of Movies I can pull onto any TiVo in the house in way faster than real time on any TiVo/TV.

so sorry it does not work at your house with your magnificent setup but that is hardly a logical point in your argument that TiVo inc is behind in 3rd party content and does not get it

My original argument that TiVo needs to do something truly innovative still holds.

The proof is in them continuing to shed subscribers.

What good is it going to do for you to give TiVo a pass on weakness in so many areas if they continue losing subscribers and the only way to get TiVo service is on an ad-infested hobbled box provided by your local cableco?

[MichaelK]

Not every internet connection is created equal. Speed isn't the only issue.



I too have nothing but perfect experience with netflix HD streaming.

I wonder if it's not throttling from the ISP. Since comcast isn't allowed to slaw torrents anymore, I think i read their new plan is if an area is having issues they throttle the biggist users/apps in the area. Certainly someone HD streaming would look like a larger constant hit on their bandwidth.

I wonder if maybe if in jmpage's case they didn't upgrade the rest of the system enough when they started hading out docsis 3 modems on his system and so they are forced to throttle at times and netflix HD streaming gets 'attacked'?

[SCSIRAID]

Doubtful - if you go to the TiVo main website, one of the things they advertise is "Amazon On Demand".

Does anybody even know if Tru2Way on a TiVo would work with most of the existing cable systems?

(Meanwhile, Comcast appears to be getting its own OnDemand system closer to TiVo; there's still just the one rewind and one FF speed, and no frame advance, but reportedly they are adding five-minute interval skipping, which is good when you are interrupted 90 minutes into watching something, can't get back to it within 24 hours (so the "resume" feature is no longer available), and don't want to wait 9-10 minutes for the FF to reach the spot.)

-- Don

tru2way is not available in very many areas (afaik)... I spoke with my TWC contact recently and asked where our area stood with tru2way. The response was that they intended to support it eventually and were beginning to install some of the infrastructure but no idea as to when it would be available.

[Luckyp79]

With my 10mb connection I have no problems streaming Netflix on my TiVo. Even when I had a 5mb connection I had no problems with HD streaming through Netflix.

[ZeoTiVo]

My original argument that TiVo needs to do something truly innovative still holds.
and if you had actually just said that instead of listing things that TiVo had already innovated on as if they did not exist then I would have passed your post by, likely without comment.
TiVo will always need to innovate, they are not exactly selling in a market that has buyers lining up for limited supplies.

[ZeoTiVo]

tru2way is not available in very many areas (afaik)... I spoke with my TWC contact recently and asked where our area stood with tru2way. The response was that they intended to support it eventually and were beginning to install some of the infrastructure but no idea as to when it would be available.

tru2way stalled out when more companies got involved. There is currently still disagreemnt of the full standard. Comcast and TiVo spent time working on it but TiVo now seems to have sidelined tru2way in favor of some things they do not have to wait on the cable companies to agree on.

[CuriousMark]

The proof is in them continuing to shed subscribers.

Are you aware that somewhere around 90% of the subscribers being lost are those with DirecTV subscriptions and DirecTV is pushing them to switch to the DirecTV DVR because there is currently not a DirecTV DVR with TiVo service that can receive the HD content that DirecTV moved to MP4 to free up bandwidth.

Yes, TiVo is behind with that unit. The new DirecTV DVR with TiVo service should have been out late last year, but is not here yet. We don't know if that delay is TiVo's fault, DirecTV's fault, or a combination of both.

It is rumored that the new DirecTV DVR with TiVo was help up to allow TiVo to get their new Premiere units on the market first, but I am not sure I believe that.

I am hoping TiVo will have a DirecTV device very soon now. Having it of course will not instantly win back all the subscribers they have already lost, but it should stop the bleeding. The new features and anything cool that comes out March 2, might start subscriber growth again, we will have to wait and see.

[jmpage2]

I too have nothing but perfect experience with netflix HD streaming.

I wonder if it's not throttling from the ISP. Since comcast isn't allowed to slaw torrents anymore, I think i read their new plan is if an area is having issues they throttle the biggist users/apps in the area. Certainly someone HD streaming would look like a larger constant hit on their bandwidth.

I wonder if maybe if in jmpage's case they didn't upgrade the rest of the system enough when they started hading out docsis 3 modems on his system and so they are forced to throttle at times and netflix HD streaming gets 'attacked'?

This is absolutely a possibility, however as previously mentioned I don't run into the same buffering issues with other non TiVo devices accessing the same content.

It could be a combination of ISP throttling as well as TiVo buffer size/handling at play here.

Either way, it doesn't work, and as I don't have the issue with other devices I believe TiVo has at least some role in it.

[jmpage2]

Are you aware that somewhere around 90% of the subscribers being lost are those with DirecTV subscriptions and DirecTV is pushing them to switch to the DirecTV DVR because there is currently not a DirecTV DVR with TiVo service that can receive the HD content that DirecTV moved to MP4 to free up bandwidth.

Yes, TiVo is behind with that unit. The new DirecTV DVR with TiVo service should have been out late last year, but is not here yet. We don't know if that delay is TiVo's fault, DirecTV's fault, or a combination of both.

It is rumored that the new DirecTV DVR with TiVo was help up to allow TiVo to get their new Premiere units on the market first, but I am not sure I believe that.

I am hoping TiVo will have a DirecTV device very soon now. Having it of course will not instantly win back all the subscribers they have already lost, but it should stop the bleeding. The new features and anything cool that comes out March 2, might start subscriber growth again, we will have to wait and see.

That might be true but I've never seen numbers on loss of TiVo subscribers that breaks it out this way, so that you know whether subscribers abandoning TiVo are DirecTV customers or not.

Either way, TiVo has lost a lot of subscribers, and as I said earlier, they need to do something VERY bold and innovative to turn that around.

[Brainiac 5]

You can talk about the wonderful features that the TiVo has all you want. Personally I don't have the five minutes it takes to go into TiVo Search and try to type a few characters in and have something meaningful happen.

The hardware and UI are so slow and unresponsive at this point that we find it easier to get something on Netflix through the mail than deal with TiVo slowness.I agree about TiVo Search - it's great in theory, but for me it's unusably slow. The thing is, it doesn't have anything to do with the hardware or software on the unit being slow; it's because it's an HME application. Every button press has to go to a server somewhere and instructions on how the UI should respond have to come back. Apparently some people are lucky enough to have a great path through the network to the server, and the UI works. But for many such as myself, any HME application is simply too slow and unresponsive to use on a regular basis. I really, really wish that TiVo would do away with HME completely and go to something where the UI for these applications is handled on the box itself.

[Brainiac 5]

This is absolutely a possibility, however as previously mentioned I don't run into the same buffering issues with other non TiVo devices accessing the same content.

It could be a combination of ISP throttling as well as TiVo buffer size/handling at play here.

Either way, it doesn't work, and as I don't have the issue with other devices I believe TiVo has at least some role in it.Yes, the bottom line is that whatever causes the problems for TiVos, other devices can handle it just fine. For whatever reason, the TiVo software is not as robust as the software on other devices.

[nrc]

I really, really wish that TiVo would do away with HME completely and go to something where the UI for these applications is handled on the box itself.

Indications are that TiVo will use Flash light in their new box. That will likely mean either a new framework or a major rework of HME to allow a more autonomous UI.

[jmpage2]

Indications are that TiVo will use Flash light in their new box. That will likely mean either a new framework or a major rework of HME to allow a more autonomous UI.

Steve Jobs better not find out they are using Flash. It'll be all like, "Hulk Steve SMASH!!!!".

[Brainiac 5]

Indications are that TiVo will use Flash light in their new box. That will likely mean either a new framework or a major rework of HME to allow a more autonomous UI.That would get a :up: from me.

Steve Jobs better not find out they are using Flash. It'll be all like, "Hulk Steve SMASH!!!!".You know that's right!

[jmpage2]

That would get a :up: from me.

You know that's right!

He'll probably just buy TiVo and make them re-write it for Apple TV. Apple has $25B for "acquisitions" right now.

[ZeoTiVo]

I agree about TiVo Search - it's great in theory, but for me it's unusably slow. The thing is, it doesn't have anything to do with the hardware or software on the unit being slow; it's because it's an HME application.

. I really, really wish that TiVo would do away with HME completely and go to something where the UI for these applications is handled on the box itself.

TiVo search as it is currently is a BETA. It was noted as such and they have a whole forum here denoting that fact. TiVo search as an HME app was never meant to be the end product.
The UI is currently handled on the box though. What goes back and forth is the data based on the search. For good or bad the broadband connection on the box will just be getting as important as hardware powerful enough to hold up its end of the performace bargain.

[Brainiac 5]

The UI is currently handled on the box though. What goes back and forth is the data based on the search.Are you sure about that? In my understanding, the way HME works is that button presses go to the server and the server sends back what to draw in response.

For good or bad the broadband connection on the box will just be getting as important as hardware powerful enough to hold up its end of the performace bargain.But it will never be a good idea to have every individual keypress go to a server for it to decide what to do.

[ZeoTiVo]

Are you sure about that? In my understanding, the way HME works is that button presses go to the server and the server sends back what to draw in response.

But it will never be a good idea to have every individual keypress go to a server for it to decide what to do.

yes in the public version of HME- TiVo search though does not have to use the public APIs for HME so the developers can put more UI functionality on the server running in the TiVo - that is just a kludge though as a full blown app server in the TiVo box is not a good idea for stability either.

And that is where Flash comes in to try and take care of both those issues.

[innocentfreak]

TiVo search as it is currently is a BETA. It was noted as such and they have a whole forum here denoting that fact. TiVo search as an HME app was never meant to be the end product.


I almost wonder now if TiVo search was also a test to see how well the series 3 could handle the UI since some of the tipsters to engadgethd did say the new ui started as fixes for the series 3.

[ddreese]

I've been a loyal TiVo owner and subscriber since I got my first Philips 312 for Christmas in 2001. I upgraded the drive and added the ethernet card in the first unit, then bought a series2 and then a DT and upgraded the drives in both of those as well. I was a little perturbed at the lockdown that prevented the series2 boxes from being easily user-upgradeable. Still, I continued to be a TiVo evangelist. Until last year, when I finally ditched my local cable company over their poor customer service and went back to DirecTV for the first time in 11 years.
The older DirecTiVo boxes don't work with the newer DirecTV LNB systems. The newer TiVo boxes don't work with DirecTV at all. So I've been stuck using the two TiVo's on my sub in hobbled, one hand tied behind its back mode. I've been patiently waiting for the new DirecTiVo 'coming soon'.
I'm not going to wait much longer.
The TiVo Premiere holds no benefit to me. My little Seagate FreeAgent Theater+ provides me most of the functionality I need, allowing me to not only hook up an external USB drive with movies, but to also stream them from my PC or pretty much anywhere on the internet and display them all at 1080p. Not only that, but there is an active community generating their own firmware for the box to extend capabilities we used to have, like FTP, telnet, SSH, web server, etc.
So unless TiVo gets their act together, I'm going to replace both my remaining units with HR23's and maybe a few more FAT+'s.
TiVo hasn't responded to this long-term subscribers needs. The Premiere dog won't hunt.

[MichaelK]

This is absolutely a possibility, however as previously mentioned I don't run into the same buffering issues with other non TiVo devices accessing the same content.

It could be a combination of ISP throttling as well as TiVo buffer size/handling at play here.

Either way, it doesn't work, and as I don't have the issue with other devices I believe TiVo has at least some role in it.

I honestly dont know- but someone above wrote you can't stream HD to a PC- only to a Tivo. So is it possible the pc only has much lower SD bitrates?

[MichaelK]

I agree about TiVo Search - it's great in theory, but for me it's unusably slow. The thing is, it doesn't have anything to do with the hardware or software on the unit being slow; it's because it's an HME application. Every button press has to go to a server somewhere and instructions on how the UI should respond have to come back. Apparently some people are lucky enough to have a great path through the network to the server, and the UI works. But for many such as myself, any HME application is simply too slow and unresponsive to use on a regular basis. I really, really wish that TiVo would do away with HME completely and go to something where the UI for these applications is handled on the box itself.

I wonder if the announcement isnt eactly that the "beta search" is leacing HME and becoming native somehow? That could be the "new HD UI".

[Brainiac 5]

I honestly dont know- but someone above wrote you can't stream HD to a PC- only to a Tivo. So is it possible the pc only has much lower SD bitrates?I believe that's true about the PC. However, other devices (for example, the Roku) do get HD, and I've seen posts where people said their Roku worked fine when TiVo didn't.

[MichaelK]

I believe that's true about the PC. However, other devices (for example, the Roku) do get HD, and I've seen posts where people said their Roku worked fine when TiVo didn't.

interesting- I guess the tivo does buffer less for some reason. If I recall the reserved space is huge- so maybe they should take some more of that for the streaming buffer.

[samo]

That might be true but I've never seen numbers on loss of TiVo subscribers that breaks it out this way, so that you know whether subscribers abandoning TiVo are DirecTV customers or not.

Either way, TiVo has lost a lot of subscribers, and as I said earlier, they need to do something VERY bold and innovative to turn that around.
It is all public information. Accordig to SEC filings for the last reported quarter they lost 45,000 TiVo owned subs and 269,000 DirecTV subs.

[DocNo]

But there's also a big reason why <1% of the population is capable of being leaders and instituting real change...

Slapping a new label like Web 2.0 on an existing concept isn't "real change" but hey, knock yourself out. Me, I'd just be happy if Tivo could let me watch my Netflix without rebooting or would let me move through menus without long delays and pauses in the UI. Silly me for wishing for base functionality - by all means, layer on more features that a minority of users will use that will probably slow the @^&@! box down more and drive off more of the core users that have kept Tivo going all these years. I sincerely hope the upcoming announcement has more substance than fluff like this.

[DocNo]

That is the whole point. I don't have a choice if I want ESPN; I have to subscribe to a tier with a 150 other crap channels that I don't even want in my guide

While I'm glad I'm not that into sports, I think you are going to see this change. Look at the MLB iPhone app - you can stream games and other content. I think many of the exclusive agreements with cable co's are gong to start to change, or you will see new alternatives start to spring up. With technology and web production what it is today, it's not unfeasible to expect an alternative or alternatives to ESPN or parts of ESPN start to emerge. Or ESPN themselves start offering more content online. It's just the beginning - for the US anyway, IPTV is pretty established in many European countries.

Want to speed things up? Get your local government to get involved with Google: http://www.google.com/appserve/fiberrfi/

[DCIFRTHS]

Slapping a new label like Web 2.0 on an existing concept isn't "real change" but hey, knock yourself out. Me, I'd just be happy if Tivo could let me watch my Netflix without rebooting or would let me move through menus without long delays and pauses in the UI. Silly me for wishing for base functionality - by all means, layer on more features that a minority of users will use that will probably slow the @^&@! box down more and drive off more of the core users that have kept Tivo going all these years. I sincerely hope the upcoming announcement has more substance than fluff like this.

One of the more sensible posts I have read in a while. I would like to see a true HD interface too.

[DocNo]

I'll point out that Netflix does not stream HD to PC's or Mac, only SD.

It does, however, to my Xbox 360 and PS3 - and it works fine on those.

[Bierboy]

I've been a loyal TiVo owner and subscriber since I got my first Philips 312 for Christmas in 2001. I upgraded the drive and added the ethernet card in the first unit, then bought a series2 and then a DT and upgraded the drives in both of those as well. I was a little perturbed at the lockdown that prevented the series2 boxes from being easily user-upgradeable. Still, I continued to be a TiVo evangelist. Until last year, when I finally ditched my local cable company over their poor customer service and went back to DirecTV for the first time in 11 years.
The older DirecTiVo boxes don't work with the newer DirecTV LNB systems. The newer TiVo boxes don't work with DirecTV at all. So I've been stuck using the two TiVo's on my sub in hobbled, one hand tied behind its back mode. I've been patiently waiting for the new DirecTiVo 'coming soon'.
I'm not going to wait much longer.
The TiVo Premiere holds no benefit to me. My little Seagate FreeAgent Theater+ provides me most of the functionality I need, allowing me to not only hook up an external USB drive with movies, but to also stream them from my PC or pretty much anywhere on the internet and display them all at 1080p. Not only that, but there is an active community generating their own firmware for the box to extend capabilities we used to have, like FTP, telnet, SSH, web server, etc.
So unless TiVo gets their act together, I'm going to replace both my remaining units with HR23's and maybe a few more FAT+'s.
TiVo hasn't responded to this long-term subscribers needs. The Premiere dog won't hunt.
Interesting post....and fairly uneducated...since the "Premiere" isn't even out yet :D

[ZeoTiVo]

TiVo hasn't responded to this long-term subscribers needs. The Premiere dog won't hunt.
umm yeah - you have DirectTV and hate cable. IF something like cable card had been made to happen for DirectTV and DISH then the premiere might have worked with those broadcasters. Really odd of you to talk about TiVo issues when you made the choice to do things as DirecTTV will do them.

As to the rumors that the premiere held up work on the DirectTiVo unit - does anyone think DirectTV would be saying "Oh no prob, just deliver the unit when you have some time?"

[schwinn]

An interesting article I ran into through Slashdot this morning: http://www.gadgetopolis.com/posts/7462

(Warning, site is running slow due to the slashdotting...)

Not sure if there's much new info there, but an interesting read with lots of history, at least...

[ZeoTiVo]

Me, I'd just be happy if Tivo could let me watch my Netflix without rebooting or would let me move through menus without long delays and pauses in the UI. Silly me for wishing for base functionality

again - not every box, heck not even a significnat minority of the boxes have these problems. If that was the case then the press that cared about such would be reporting on such.

So silly you for just continuing to use a box that does not work and then complaining about it in forums as if that will somehow make the box work. I know it can cost money and might even mean you just have to scrap that TiVo box as a lemon but if I had a ford truck that stalled every cold morning and even if I knew 20 other Ford Truck owners with the same problem I would not be thinking that Ford needs to redesign their trucks or that all Ford trucks even suffered from some design flaw.

[xcrunner]

As much as I love to complain about my TiVo (I came home yesterday to a green screen and loud noise. my recordings that evening didn't happen), netflix is one of the things that appears to work great. It's not *as* fast as I'd like, but I literally can start playing something in 30 secs or so.

The only time I had issues was a year ago when I was in a dorm and so there were probably port issues. Are the people with the issues using a good router that supports nat/upnp and/or opening ports for the tivo?

[DocNo]

again - not every box, heck not even a significnat minority of the boxes have these problems. If that was the case then the press that cared about such would be reporting on such.

1) For the people who have only streamed netflix through Tivo, they probably don't realize how good netflix streaming can be, or how much better it can look on more capable hardware.

2) Even if there was a significant problem with netflix on Tivo, Netflix streaming is niche enough on it's own, never mind the even smaller niche of Tivo users that to pin success/fail of a feature by it's lack of an appearance in "press" is laughable. And if you are including blogs as "press" that's even more laughable given the biases that such blogs inherently have in covering such a niche product.

I've been a Tivo proponent since 2001, and for most people I'm still a Tivo proponent, but Tivo is still a niche product - and as others have pointed out it's becoming more of a niche product. It's not growing, it's shrinking. DirecTV vs. CableCard in the end really doesn't matter - their subscriber base is shrinking :(

So silly you for just continuing to use a box that does not work

It works, it just works poorly. Not poorly enough that I'm willing to totally abandon them just yet, but if they don't have something significantly improved by the time I am ready for an upgrade - I will switch. I will only wait so long. If my S3 performed the same as the day I bought it, I wouldn't even be posting - but the experience on it has degraded over time as they have piled on more crap - the majority of which I neither want nor care about. I wish I had the option to request "Tivo Light" that just sticks to the @^^$@! basics!!!

and then complaining about it in forums as if that will somehow make the box work.

Maybe someone from Tivo (they used to browse these forums, I dunno if they still care what their customers think) will see the trends in comments like these and do something about it. Maybe they are already to the point where they can't if they wanted to :(

In the end, I don't expect anything - that's your projection of motive where none exists. I'm simply expressing my opinion. For someone who does it as often as you do, I figured you would be familiar with the concept :)

I know it can cost money and might even mean you just have to scrap that TiVo box as a lemon

My Tivo box is not a lemon, functionality it was never designed to do was crammed into it in the incessant compulsion companies have to try to outdo their competitors feature list.

Wanna know why Apple is kicking everyones butt in the personal music/video/smartphone and soon to be tablet space? Slavish devotion to the user experience - which includes often leaving out features that "experts" insist they must have if the features will impact the user experience. Tivo, on the other hand, is falling into the trap of every other tech company who seems to feel they have to expand features and if the user experience suffers, oh well. It's a bunch of crap and extremely annoying since for it's core functionality, a DVR with really good scheduling and use of guide data, is getting steamrolled by all this other fluff they keep trying to stuff in a box that was near it's limit with it's base functionality.

Instead of netflix and HMA how about coordinated scheduling and conflict resolution among multiple networked Tivo's?

but if I had a ford truck that stalled every cold morning and even if I knew 20 other Ford Truck owners with the same problem I would not be thinking that Ford needs to redesign their trucks or that all Ford trucks even suffered from some design flaw.

No, the Ford fanbois would continue to buy them, and if Ford didn't fix the problem people who actually watch things like reliability ratings would buy other products, Ford sales would drop and that would force them to redesign.

The core problem is, for whatever reasons, Tivo never got close to anything like Ford market share. Tivo is closer to Tucker - a plucky design with lots of innovative features that never caught on. They either come up with a significant increase in their value proposition or I am moving on. Not because I want to, but I'm just tired of being frustrated by the device that is supposed to make my leisure time more enjoyable, not more stressful.

[ZeoTiVo]

2) Even if there was a significant problem with netflix on Tivo, Netflix streaming is niche enough on it's own, never mind the even smaller niche of Tivo users that to pin success/fail of a feature by it's lack of an appearance in "press" is laughable. And if you are including blogs as "press" that's even more laughable given the biases that such blogs inherently have in covering such a niche product. I had no idea the conspiracy was that deep and wide on hushing up TiVo problems. Whoa - am I working on the side of evil by pointing out the reality here. :eek:

again you may have your own user expectations and you may have your own approach to putting up with less than you expect, that however does not translate directly to some company having to adjust to your specific situation.

PS - I pointed out that if Netflix on TiVo had problems that showed on all units trying to use Netflix - then that would show up in reviews or mentions in engadget and so forth. This very thread shows the problems to not be on everyone's' TiVo. Your reality heard me say success instead - which I never said.


So state your opinions all you want - just be ready for others to knock them down when they are not accurate.

[ddreese]

umm yeah - you have DirectTV and hate cable. IF something like cable card had been made to happen for DirectTV and DISH then the premiere might have worked with those broadcasters. Really odd of you to talk about TiVo issues when you made the choice to do things as DirecTTV will do them.

As to the rumors that the premiere held up work on the DirectTiVo unit - does anyone think DirectTV would be saying "Oh no prob, just deliver the unit when you have some time?"

No, I don't hate cable, I hated my cable provider who lost half a dozen channels (A&E, History, HI and a few others) for nine months in a dispute over contract terms. The final straw was when they lost Showtime right in the middle of The Tudors.

With cable, my DT worked like a champ. The broadband internet was fast. I just couldn't get the channels I wanted, and they couldn't tell me when I would be getting them back. So they lost a customer due to poor customer service.

Likewise, TiVo will be losing yet another long-term subscriber because they haven't met my needs. UNLESS they get the new DirecTiVo out PDQ.

TiVo should have worked harder to keep their relationship with DirecTV. I can't even use my OLD DirecTiVo's on the new system.

I really enjoy the ease of use of the TiVo UI. I miss it not being on the HR23, which has it's own issues, but at least DTV seems to be slowly addressing issues and adding features. Had my cable operater not been so phenominally screwed up, I would have plunked down for a couple of shiny new TiVo HD XL's (and suitably upgraded the HDD's).

Alas, now I'm 'stuck' with using my DT on DirecTV with one tuner non-functional. As I upgrade my older SD TV's, I'll also be upgrading the STB. TiVo doesn't have an option for me at the moment, hence, 'the Premiere dog won't hunt'.

I fervently hope that changes soon.

[morac]

I wonder if it's not throttling from the ISP. Since comcast isn't allowed to slaw torrents anymore, I think i read their new plan is if an area is having issues they throttle the biggist users/apps in the area. Certainly someone HD streaming would look like a larger constant hit on their bandwidth.

Comcast's throttling mechanism (http://www.broadbandreports.com/shownews/New-Comcast-Throttling-System-Should-Be-100-Online-100015) has been in place for a while now, but for the vast majority of people it's a not an issue since it only takes affect if there is congestion on your node and you are using 70% or more of your provisioned download and/or upload speeds for more than 15 minutes. If that happens than the download and/or upload packets (managed separately) are given a lower priority than the packets of other users.

The average Comcast customer has a 12 mbps connection and Netflix uses 3.8 mbps for HD streaming which is less than 70% so the throttling mechanism shouldn't affect Netflix unless you are streaming multiple movies at once.

[ZeoTiVo]

TiVo should have worked harder to keep their relationship with DirecTV. I can't even use my OLD DirecTiVo's on the new system.

TiVo doesn't have an option for me at the moment, hence, 'the Premiere dog won't hunt'.

if you followed what happened, Rupert Murdoch acquired Direct TV via parent company and decided he would have everything under control of HIS companies - there was no 'work harder' for TiVo. They would have had to lose money as the only thing tha twould appeal to Murdoch. Direct TV shareholders had enough of Murdoch eventually and the new ownership opened up talks with TiVo before the ink on the change of ownership was dry.

and yes again, you need a Direct TV unit so obviously you yourself would rather TiVo do nothing but make the next DirectTiVo. It is just not that simple though.

[LoadStar]

An interesting article I ran into through Slashdot this morning: http://www.gadgetopolis.com/posts/7462

(Warning, site is running slow due to the slashdotting...)

Not sure if there's much new info there, but an interesting read with lots of history, at least...

From that article: "For starters, TiVo has scheduled an announcement – a big announcement to be held at nothing less than the top of the Empire State Building 30 Rockefeller Center." Wow. Major geography failure. Those are two entirely separate buildings.

[jmpage2]

again - not every box, heck not even a significnat minority of the boxes have these problems. If that was the case then the press that cared about such would be reporting on such.

So silly you for just continuing to use a box that does not work and then complaining about it in forums as if that will somehow make the box work. I know it can cost money and might even mean you just have to scrap that TiVo box as a lemon but if I had a ford truck that stalled every cold morning and even if I knew 20 other Ford Truck owners with the same problem I would not be thinking that Ford needs to redesign their trucks or that all Ford trucks even suffered from some design flaw.

Ya, I'm sure Toyota owners who weren't having acceleration problems were saying the same thing on their forums.

Well MY Toyota doesn't have those issues so you must just not know how to drive the car properly.

[CrispyCritter]

Ya, I'm sure Toyota owners who weren't having acceleration problems were saying the same thing on their forums.

Well MY Toyota doesn't have those issues so you must just not know how to drive the car properly.
And when did anybody blame you personally for the fact that your network has throughput problems?

[jmpage2]

And when did anybody blame you personally for the fact that your network has throughput problems?

Funny, Netflix movies don't stutter when I play them on the PC, or the PS3, or the Mac.

Yes, my network must have throughput issues when the TiVo is the only box that constantly freezes and has to re-buffer during movie playback.

Your logic=fail.

[daveak]

Sometime I think it is a matter of hardware. TiVo is like using a computer that is at least 4-5 years old and may lack the robustness to deal with streaming issues on an internet connection. There could be a software issue as well or simply a lack of buffering space. Certainly the Xbox and PS3 are way ahead of TiVo with much more robust hardware, designed for some rather intense gaming. And the Roku is a newer dedicated streaming box, its core functionality.

Using the old Ford example, they all may start and run great - but try using them at 40 below zero and less than ideal operating conditions and you may find your great older truck operates poorly and is not robust enough to handle those conditions.

I think Netflix streaming may have exposed the limits of the hardware and/ or software for some users who may not have an ideal internet connection or network, or their service provider may not be offering the best service. Newer and better hardware and more powerful chipsets (as found in some other devices) handle the issues well - and NetFlix will work great.

If it is a software issue, maybe it can be fixed with a new UI in the series 3 type box, but if it is a hardware limitation there may be nothing TiVo can do for users who may not have an ideal network setting. I know you can sometimes adjust for hardware limitations with software patches, but that is not usually an easy or optimum solution.

[xander777]

Can we stop the bickering about Netflix and other TiVo issues and get back to the point of this thread?

Is anyone else excited that they may be getting a new HD interface for their existing Tivo HD or Series 3? If they can give me a fast HD interface, a guide that shows what I'm watching in the corner, apps etc... without me having to buy new hardware, that would be fantastic. I'm guessing the Premiere is probably similiar to the PS3 slim idea, does all the same stuff but at a cheaper cost for them to produce. I doubt it would be drastically different from the existing models since they have that whole user base to continue supporting. Just my $.02

[CrispyCritter]

Funny, Netflix movies don't stutter when I play them on the PC, or the PS3, or the Mac.

Yes, my network must have throughput issues when the TiVo is the only box that constantly freezes and has to re-buffer during movie playback.

Your logic=fail.
Sorry, that makes no sense at all. Lots of people have no problems with Netflix. There must be something different for them than for you. It's not the software and its not the hardware design, since those are the same in both cases. Please tell me what the difference is!

As others have pointed out, it absolutely can be the case that the TiVo is not handling your network problems as well as the other devices. But that doesn't mean that you don't have network problems; it means you do have them!

And you keep on repeating nonsense about how playing things on the PC proves it's the TiVo, despite knowing that those are completely different streams coming from completely different servers at completely different bit rates.

[morac]

Funny, Netflix movies don't stutter when I play them on the PC, or the PS3, or the Mac.

Yes, my network must have throughput issues when the TiVo is the only box that constantly freezes and has to re-buffer during movie playback.

Your logic=fail.

I don't know how your network is set up, but you can't blame the TiVo until you've eliminated all possible problems on your end. This could be plugging the TiVo directly into the modem or clocking streaming speeds for YouTube and the free podcast videos. There might be a problem with the TiVo or it could be as simple as a nicked network cable or malfunctioning router port.

[innocentfreak]

Is anyone else excited that they may be getting a new HD interface for their existing Tivo HD or Series 3? If they can give me a fast HD interface, a guide that shows what I'm watching in the corner, apps etc... without me having to buy new hardware, that would be fantastic. I'm guessing the Premiere is probably similiar to the PS3 slim idea, does all the same stuff but at a cheaper cost for them to produce. I doubt it would be drastically different from the existing models since they have that whole user base to continue supporting. Just my $.02

Personally for me while a new UI would be nice if done correctly there is always a huge chance people will hate it. I know some people are already dreading it will look like TiVo Search just on every screen.

I think it would be smart if feasible to include a "Classic" option also that supports HD if there is a new UI. Also there might be issues if the UI is designed for HD and you try to use it on a SD set similar to some games on the PS3 and 360 where the text can't be read.

Overall new hardware especially with more tuners would excite me more than just a new UI. Then again it depends on what it can do with the UI.

[ZeoTiVo]

From that article: "For starters, TiVo has scheduled an announcement – a big announcement to be held at nothing less than the top of the Empire State Building 30 Rockefeller Center." Wow. Major geography failure. Those are two entirely separate buildings.

well the fact those two buildings are now one is certainly some new news. :D

[ZeoTiVo]

Using the old Ford example, they all may start and run great - but try using them at 40 below zero and less than ideal operating conditions and you may find your great older truck operates poorly and is not robust enough to handle those conditions.

exactly, and while Ford may build lessons learned into newer models - or just use better material by default of being designed built later - it is not going back to the older models - unless the problem rises to the level of what Toyota has.

So I look forward to the new model(s) while happily using my current ones reliably at my nice balmy meadow. C'mon March 2nd.

[ZeoTiVo]

I think it would be smart if feasible to include a "Classic" option also that supports HD if there is a new UI. Also there might be issues if the UI is designed for HD and you try to use it on a SD set similar to some games on the PS3 and 360 where the text can't be read.

TiVo gave that very reason of hard to support on all TV sets for why they did not just update what they had to HD format.

So having the classic menu in SD and a new HD UI as options would be great. Just means more support work for TiVo but it would be extra work that has a pretty good payoff in overall customer satisfaction.

[stmckin]

unexciting to mediocre:
- HD refresh of the same interface
- qwerty remote
- new hardware platform with fundamentally the same function

exciting:
- new speedy hd interface with Dinovo mini kinda remote that will run on current hardware... even if I have to pay a one time upcharge
- new guide that incorporates "mutli source" search (amazon/netflix/youtube/hulu/ota/cable in one jump)
- new top menu paradigm that reflects tech changes since 2001 (lol)

disasterous:
- new premier with new performance and function that leaves current users out in the cold


as an aside.... everyone is talking Netflix all the time, when Amazon playback totally rocks (exactly like tivo recording) in comparison... I don't get that... rent a movie Netflix, then rent the same movie amazon and you'll se what I mean....

[DancnDude]

as an aside.... everyone is talking Netflix all the time, when Amazon playback totally rocks (exactly like tivo recording) in comparison... I don't get that... rent a movie Netflix, then rent the same movie amazon and you'll se what I mean....

Netflix is streaming and Amazon just downloads it. Pretty big difference. Amazon is basically just downloading the recording and then treating the recording like any other recorded TV show (except it may expire after a certain period and auto-delete itself).

[stmckin]

Netflix is streaming and Amazon just downloads it. Pretty big difference. Amazon is basically just downloading the recording and then treating the recording like any other recorded TV show (except it may expire after a certain period and auto-delete itself).

you can begin playback of Amazon content after a few minutes, so the streaming vs DL thing is simply splitting buffering hairs .... I can wait a couple of minutes (make a sandwich... go to the john... whatever) to get much enhanced playback and quality... Netflix stinks

[Brainiac 5]

So silly you for just continuing to use a box that does not work and then complaining about it in forums as if that will somehow make the box work. I know it can cost money and might even mean you just have to scrap that TiVo box as a lemon
The problem is, I don't think the people having problems have "lemons." From what people have posted, I doubt very much it is something that's different about their particular box; I think what's different is their network connection. While this could be something in their setup, it could also be something outside their own network, on the path from their house to the server; from what I've read on these forums, I suspect this is often the case. In any event, having some network errors is completely expected and normal, that's why the protocols are designed to work in the presence of errors. Other devices are able to handle these people's network connections just fine - it really, really seems that it is something in the TiVo that's not as robust as it should be.

but if I had a ford truck that stalled every cold morning and even if I knew 20 other Ford Truck owners with the same problem I would not be thinking that Ford needs to redesign their trucks or that all Ford trucks even suffered from some design flaw.Your Ford analogy isn't quite right. The situation is more like this: For most people, Ford trucks work great. However, they won't start for anyone who has red hair and blue eyes. Since such people are relatively rare, the problem doesn't affect that many customers. In this case, yes, all Ford trucks suffer from the same design flaw - it's just that most drivers don't have the characteristics that trigger the problem. For those customers that do have those characteristics, it's a dependably repeatable problem - so if I was in charge of Ford, yes, they'd redesign the trucks.

In fact, there was a real-world situation that was remarkably similar to this: airbags. As you may recall, there were cases where airbags hurt or killed people instead of protecting them. Many people made the argument that they protect most of the time, and it's rare that they cause harm instead, so on the whole it's better to have them. The problem with that argument was that it assumed that each time anyone crashes, they had a (say) 99% chance of being helped by the airbag vs. a 1% chance of being hurt by it. But that wasn't true - it actually depended on the size of the person. If you're short enough that you sit within 12" of the steering wheel, in a crash you had a much greater chance of being hurt than helped; if you are taller than that, you had a greater chance of being helped than hurt. The fact that the airbags helped most of the time was because most people are tall enough that they sit more than 12" from the steering wheel. If you are short, this is not is not exactly ideal. What did the car manufacturers do? They redesigned the cars so that the airbags would not deploy if the person was less than 12" away from the steering wheel, solving the problem.

[Brainiac 5]

Sometime I think it is a matter of hardware. TiVo is like using a computer that is at least 4-5 years old and may lack the robustness to deal with streaming issues on an internet connection.While that's possible, as a computer scientist I don't know what part of the hardware would be lacking to make this happen. If the hardware was too slow to keep with the stream, it would seem like that would happen to everyone, and in fact more to people who had good internet connections because it would use a higher bitrate stream. As for handling connection errors, that would happen in the software and is not taxing on the hardware in any way.

[stmckin]

the ultimate, but unlikely, announcement would be subscription service for download that emulates cable TV... in other words, a Uverse like offering... on the Tivo platform that would be ultra hot

[Brainiac 5]

Sorry, that makes no sense at all. Lots of people have no problems with Netflix. There must be something different for them than for you. It's not the software and its not the hardware design, since those are the same in both cases. Please tell me what the difference is!I'm almost certain it's the network, but that doesn't mean there's nothing wrong with the TiVo. A certain number of network problems are expected; if TiVo cannot handle a network connection that is not perfect but is within "normal tolerances," then the problem is in the TiVo. It will never be the case that everyone has a connection better than the worst that's considered "normal."

As others have pointed out, it absolutely can be the case that the TiVo is not handling your network problems as well as the other devices. But that doesn't mean that you don't have network problems; it means you do have them!It does, but again, there will always be some network problems; it would be astounding if even the people who've had no problems with Netflix never had a single dropped packet. The issue seems to be that the software has to tolerate errors better, like other devices do.

[Brainiac 5]

the ultimate, but unlikely, announcement would be subscription service for download that emulates cable TV... in other words, a Uverse like offering... on the Tivo platform that would be ultra hotYes, please, I'd take that! (If the price made sense.)

[daveak]

While that's possible, as a computer scientist I don't know what part of the hardware would be lacking to make this happen. If the hardware was too slow to keep with the stream, it would seem like that would happen to everyone, and in fact more to people who had good internet connections because it would use a higher bitrate stream. As for handling connection errors, that would happen in the software and is not taxing on the hardware in any way.

I am certainly not a computer scientist... :cool: but maybe people have different quality streams and some may be dealing with issues beyond the ability of the current device setup to deal with - as compared to other devices on the same network and connection that appear to operate flawlessly.

The majority do not have an issue, which leads credence to the thought of it not being a TiVo caused problem. However, even in that case, a software or hardware deficiency may not be showing show up with those who have better network connections (if that indeed is what is causing the issue with NetFlix for some users). And I think we all know that network speed is certainly not the only issue important to quality streaming.

[daveak]

The issue seems to be that the software has to tolerate errors better, like other devices do.

And could there be limits on the software because of the TiVo hardware (I just do not know, so I have to ask)?

I am thinking that in March Series 3 platform users will see quite an update to the software on their boxes. As it seems to work better for TiVo to keep users subscribing with their current boxes, assuming not to many of them have lifetime. If they can speed up the software and use less system resources for performing core functions, then ideally the box can perform better - and maybe that will include streaming on NetFlix.

I think a few users certainly hope their NetFlix experience will improve.

[rainwater]

Netflix is streaming and Amazon just downloads it.

Amazon does support streaming, but TiVo does not support it. The Roku box does streaming from Amazon.

[Brainiac 5]

The majority do not have an issue, which leads credence to the thought of it not being a TiVo caused problem. However, even in that case, a software or hardware deficiency may not be showing show up with those who have better network connections (if that indeed is what is causing the issue with NetFlix for some users).Yes, if the network is the problem, I think that what you suggest is exactly what's happening. I think it's more likely a software issue than hardware, but of course none of us can say for certain.

And I think we all know that network speed is certainly not the only issue important to quality streaming.True.

[Brainiac 5]

And could there be limits on the software because of the TiVo hardware (I just do not know, so I have to ask)?There could, but I don't think that's a likely situation (unless there are actually major bugs in the hardware). Handling network errors doesn't seem like something that would strain the capabilities of the machine (for example, a packet doesn't come through, you ask for it to be resent - that doesn't take a lot of horsepower).

I am thinking that in March Series 3 platform users will see quite an update to the software on their boxes. As it seems to work better for TiVo to keep users subscribing with their current boxes, assuming not to many of them have lifetime. If they can speed up the software and use less system resources for performing core functions, then ideally the box can perform better - and maybe that will include streaming on NetFlix.Let's hope, that would be great!

[ZeoTiVo]

it really, really seems that it is something in the TiVo that's not as robust as it should be.
it certainly could be some specific error handling in the TiVo that is not there but would overcome the issue if it was there. I am not saying TiVo has made a bullet proof box. They have in fact considered cost as prioroity in the design of the TiVo HD. My point was simply that TiVo may not spend any resources on correcting that for specific cases and certainly wont if they are not made aware and be able to replicate it though that of ocurse would take some extensive testing in the person's home to find root cause.

A new hardware model or next years truck if you will, likely would oversomce some of these outliers as witnessed by the more extensive hardware of the PS3 or Xbox not displaying the same issue.

so I say again - C'mon new hardware. :D

[steve614]

I know some people are already dreading it will look like TiVo Search just on every screen.
Really? I haven't read much opinion one way or another, but I think Tivo Search looks okay. If they manage to make the rest of the UI match the style of Tivo Search, I'll be OK with that.

Also there might be issues if the UI is designed for HD and you try to use it on a SD set similar to some games on the PS3 and 360 where the text can't be read. TiVo gave that very reason of hard to support on all TV sets for why they did not just update what they had to HD format.
I have no problem reading the Tivo Search BETA on my SD TV. Sure, the edges are cut off, but not so much I can't tell what's supposed to be there. That may be an issue with some people, but I understand the limited capability of my TV.


you can begin playback of Amazon content after a few minutes, so the streaming vs DL thing is simply splitting buffering hairs .... I can wait a couple of minutes (make a sandwich... go to the john... whatever) to get much enhanced playback and quality... Netflix stinks

Even thought the quality may not be that great, it was a bonus for me as I already had a Netflix subscription.
My options: use Netflix for free or pay Amazon? I chose Netflix as content is more important than quality for me. YMMV.

[innocentfreak]

Really? I haven't read much opinion one way or another, but I think Tivo Search looks okay. If they manage to make the rest of the UI match the style of Tivo Search, I'll be OK with that.

I have no problem reading the Tivo Search BETA on my SD TV. Sure, the edges are cut off, but not so much I can't tell what's supposed to be there. That may be an issue with some people, but I understand the limited capability of my TV.

It hasn't been a ton, but there have been some on other forums who didn't care for the Search UI. I have never really messed with Search, but I would say it is more the fact you can't guarantee every SD set will handle it the same way. My 36" JVC SD set has a horrible time with some 360 games, but my friends 32" Sony never has problems. Another issue also would be if the font was a little smaller if it was designed to be on larger HD sets where it would be tiny on regular SD sets.

[DocNo]

Yes, my network must have throughput issues when the TiVo is the only box that constantly freezes and has to re-buffer during movie playback.

Your not going to get anywhere with them - were the idiots and there is nothing wrong with the box :rolleyes:

Never mind other devices on the exact same network connection have no issues :rolleyes:

They (and Tivo) can keep their head in the sand, but the sub trends are speaking for themselves :(

[dolcevita]

TiVo is now packing the TiVo premiere Cable Card sheet in most of the newer TiVo-HD TiVos. From this sheet TiVo is going to introduce the TiVo Premiere and the TiVo Premiere XL (There is now only one manual for both the TiVo-HD and TiVo-HDXL). This new TiVo MUST use the M type CableCard,

This could pose a problem. I recently received a notice from Tivo that Comcast in my area is going all digital, so I need to finally install cable card(s). (I've been using OTA for HD). Local Comcast emphatically states they do not have the M cards, only the standard cablecards.

[ZeoTiVo]

Never mind other devices on the exact same network connection have no issues :rolleyes:


you have not yet grasped that the other devices pull an entirely different file from an entirely different server at Netflix? rolleyes indeed.
People who jump on the first little pattern as the root casue just do not last long in my industry so I have no plans to take your pattern as root cause.

[DocNo]

Is anyone else excited that they may be getting a new HD interface for their existing Tivo HD or Series 3? If they can give me a fast HD interface, a guide that shows what I'm watching in the corner, apps etc... without me having to buy new hardware, that would be fantastic.

I'd be happy if the current interface was snappy. I don't see how on the existing hardware can handle it.

I'm guessing the Premiere is probably similiar to the PS3 slim idea, does all the same stuff but at a cheaper cost for them to produce. I doubt it would be drastically different from the existing models since they have that whole user base to continue supporting. Just my $.02

Sigh - I hope not. I would happily pay more for a new box with more functionality if I had a reasonable assurance that the performance would at least stay the same. But I watched my S1 grind down over time, my S2s grind down over time and astonishingly my S3s grind down with each update :(

And to add insult to injury there is no way to reject a software update or upgrade the box (by, say, adding more RAM) to try to address the root issues.

So you pay premium for hardware, and premium for a subscription, that eventually devalues into a crap experience. That's why as much as it pains me to even think about it, if I do any new hardware I fear it will be a Windows Media center PC. Yes, I will spend more - but not really that much more - than a Tivo box. Factor in not having to pay a sub or lifetime, and the balance shifts in favor of the Media Center PC. I can add multiple tuners and a huge chunk of storage easily. I can use my Xbox as an extender and not worry about copy protection flags...

Each one of these issues is, of itself, relatively minor but together they just add insult to injury. I realize some of it Tivo is hamstrung by industry, but some of the things like transfers companies like Microsoft seem to have it figured out.

Anyway, I'll be very interested to see what Tivo has under wraps. I certainly hope it's something compelling that addresses some of the basics above or things like social media integration aren't going to make a difference at all.

[jmpage2]

you have not yet grasped that the other devices pull an entirely different file from an entirely different server at Netflix? rolleyes indeed.
People who jump on the first little pattern as the root casue just do not last long in my industry so I have no plans to take your pattern as root cause.

It doesn't matter where the problem is, there's a problem. Do you think that if Youtube videos stuttered on iPhones for 10% of users that Apple would tell them "tough, it must be the network or your wi-fi or something other than us"?

Of course not, because functionality of the core features is crucial to Apple so that the perception of the product is solid. They have put huge resources into debugging signal connections and other aspects EXTERNAL to their device to improve performance for their users.

If TiVo really cared about the issue they could contact users having the problem and set up some debugging in the box to figure out what was happening.

I have two TiVos that both do this. Both are on modern Cat5e wired networks. Other devices, on the same network, using the same cable-modem functionality are fine... yet, you and other TiVo apologists continue to insist that it's either;

1. Not an issue since you don't experience it.
2. Not TiVo's problem since it could be something external to the TiVo that is getting hosed up.

The thing you don't seem to understand (or stick your head in the sand about) is that we are paying a monthly subscription to TiVo for these services. This isn't a blu-ray player that I bought, paid one fee for and they are off the hook for helping debug issues. Come to think of it, my blu-ray players have all gotten firmware updates more frequently than TiVo has pushed software updates.

With your attitudes about customer service I'm sure glad you don't manage such things at a company with products I care about.

TiVo lost 21% of their subscribers from a year ago.

TWENTY ONE PERCENT.

That is a huge number. You'd think that they would be doing everything they could to not only improve the TiVo experience but also to innovate.

From the way that some of the TiVo love fest goes on around here you'd think they could continue to p!ss their customers off and that all will still be fine and dandy in the world of TiVo.

The reality is that if they don't do something they are going to be screwed... and you, as a lifetime subscriber of their services will also be screwed.

[DocNo]

you have not yet grasped that the other devices pull an entirely different file from an entirely different server at Netflix?

maybe you can't grasp that in the end it doesn't matter?

Compared to three other devices that share the exact same network connection the experience on Tivo is sub-par.

rolleyes indeed.

Indeed :rolleyes:

[wmcbrine]

Local Comcast emphatically states they do not have the M cards, only the standard cablecards.M cards are standard CableCards. Single-stream cards are no longer produced, and haven't been for a while. Besides which, nobody you talk to at Comcast is likely to have a clue about this. Just ask for CableCards, and be pleasantly surprised when you receive multi-stream cards.

[Luckyp79]

I might not be grasping what everyone is trying to say but if it is not your network like you are saying then what is happening is that each device your PC, your PS3, your TiVo all pull the same movie from three different servers at Netflix.

So lets say that your network is perfect as it seems to be the most perfect network around and I would love to know the secret that you hold because I know that mine isn't.

So you are sitting at your three devices on your perfect network and you watch the same movie streamed to all three of your devises. Each device is connecting to a different server to watch that movie.

So if your network is perfect then it is on the Netflix side and you should maybe tell Netflix your secret for your perfect network skills.

I don't have any problems watching Netflix. Its as flawless as streaming can be. If I am having issues I just move my wireless adapter to a new spot. I try to find the best location for signal strength.

I love Netflix on my TiVo and that is the reason I bought my TiVo.

[Brainiac 5]

I am not saying TiVo has made a bullet proof box. They have in fact considered cost as prioroity in the design of the TiVo HD.Granted. This seems most likely to be a software problem, though, which would not really have a per-box cost to fix.

My point was simply that TiVo may not spend any resources on correcting that for specific cases and certainly wont if they are not made aware and be able to replicate it though that of ocurse would take some extensive testing in the person's home to find root cause.Yes, agreed.

A new hardware model or next years truck if you will, likely would oversomce some of these outliers as witnessed by the more extensive hardware of the PS3 or Xbox not displaying the same issue.Well, I'm not sure that just faster hardware will fix the issue. I suspect that the PS3 and XBox don't have the issue not because they're faster, but because they don't have some software bug that the TiVo does. Unfortunately a new TiVo will probably have the same code for streaming from Netflix, so the bug may still be there. Although if they've significantly rewritten the Netflix application then maybe that won't be the case - one can hope...

so I say again - C'mon new hardware. :DAbsolutely! :D

I like getting new toys, whether the new hardware fixes everything or not.

[Brainiac 5]

you have not yet grasped that the other devices pull an entirely different file from an entirely different server at Netflix? rolleyes indeed.If that's the case (I know it uses a different file from the PC), and TiVo is the only device that uses the particular files and servers that it uses, then TiVo and Netflix need to get together to find out why sending those files from those servers doesn't work for some people.

It certainly doesn't mean that there's not a problem, it just expands the possibilities for where the problem is to the servers.

[johnm4]

And to add insult to injury there is no way to reject a software update or upgrade the box (by, say, adding more RAM) to try to address the root issues.


It would be interesting if they could update the software to enable a ReadyBoost-like ability to the S3/HD.

ie. you plug a 4gb flash drive into a usb port and the TiVo uses it as a high-speed cache

[dig_duggler]

Does every thread turn into a Netflix thread?

4 Days out, some leaked specs, what's a final prediction?

[stmckin]

Does every thread turn into a Netflix thread?

4 Days out, some leaked specs, what's a final prediction?

again,,, netflix stinks.... I suppose it's worth the $9 a month, but amazon is the way to go if you aren't on welfare.

final prediction:
- There will be a new HD interface that might or might not come to S3/tivoHD, they dont know yet
- there will be a qwerty remote, but they dont have it worked out quite yet
- in 1 year (maybe 2) they will have a live Comcast streaming agreement to become a Uverse competitor and the Premier will support that when it happens (very likely cause Tivo must do something like this to survive and Comcast cant do it on crappy Moto boxes)

[aaronwt]

again,,, netflix stinks.... I suppose it's worth the $9 a month, but amazon is the way to go if you aren't on welfare.

final prediction:
- There will be a new HD interface that might or might not come to S3/tivoHD, they dont know yet
- there will be a qwerty remote, but they dont have it worked out quite yet
- in 1 year (maybe 2) they will have a live Comcast streaming agreement to become a Uverse competitor and the Premier will support that when it happens (very likely cause Tivo must do something like this to survive and Comcast cant do it on crappy Moto boxes)

I'll choose Netflix over Amazon. Of course nothing comes close to VUDU except for a BD. So VUDU is my first choice. Netflix doesn't cost any extra which makes it a good value. Amazon has a cost and also looks like crap which puts it near the bottom.

[lessd]

final prediction:
- There will be a new HD interface that might or might not come to S3/tivoHD, they dont know yet
-

The Cable Card insert now packed with some new TiVo-HD units is for the Premier /Premier-XL boxes and has two screens shots of the Cable card setup menu, and both are not in HD, they are the same as the TiVo-HD but only show one Cable Card slot. This may mean nothing as TiVo may have updated the UI after this picture was taken..or not.

[MichaelK]

...by all means, layer on more features that a minority of users will use that will probably slow the @^&@! box down more and drive off more of the core users that have kept Tivo going all these years. ....


...

I've been a Tivo proponent since 2001, and for most people I'm still a Tivo proponent, but Tivo is still a niche product - and as others have pointed out it's becoming more of a niche product. It's not growing, it's shrinking. DirecTV vs. CableCard in the end really doesn't matter - their subscriber base is shrinking :(

....


this is sort of an interesting delimma for company's selling a product that aren't profitable. Clearly us "core users" dont get them enough revenue to stay in business- we're all some "niche". So they have to add other stuff (that plenty of us will think is "crap"- just see the negetive posts about adding netflix, amaxon, blockbuster, youtube, etc) to try and get other demographics to buy in.

But by adding the other 'crap' they potentially chase us away.

not a good situation to be in for tivo....

[MichaelK]

... Also there might be issues if the UI is designed for HD and you try to use it on a SD set similar to some games on the PS3 and 360 where the text can't be read....

as an option I'm fine with alternative SD support. But i can't wait for the day when Tivo, the networks, and everyone else bails on 'protecting' sd. I'd prefer SD users get inconvenienced every now and again rather than HD users.

I'm sick of fuzzy text on the tivo UI.

I'm sick of network bugs in the middle of the screen.

i can't stand when I watch sports and they jam the 'scorebar' into the middle 2/3rds of the screen so I have to wait for them to flip back and forth between different info instead of them just including it all accross the entire width of the screen.

at some point we need to move on and go to 16:9 HD format for things.

I'm not sure of the mix in the real world so I wont demand it today- but i really can't wait for the death of 4:3 and SD formating.

I'd assume that in general the large majority of people plunking down the cash upfront to buy an HD Tivo and then pay monthly fees typically have it connected to an HD set (although obviously there are some folks who dont). So hopefully tivo gets there before the networks.

[MichaelK]

It would be interesting if they could update the software to enable a ReadyBoost-like ability to the S3/HD.

ie. you plug a 4gb flash drive into a usb port and the TiVo uses it as a high-speed cache

thats an Awesome idea!!!

[nrc]

I'll choose Netflix over Amazon. Of course nothing comes close to VUDU except for a BD. So VUDU is my first choice. Netflix doesn't cost any extra which makes it a good value. Amazon has a cost and also looks like crap which puts it near the bottom.

Nothing I've ever downloaded from Amazon in HD has looked like crap. They've all played flawlessly at 1080i and looked about as good as most of my subscription HD movie channels.

[solutionsetc]

I'm sick of network bugs in the middle of the screen.

i can't stand when I watch sports and they jam the 'scorebar' into the middle 2/3rds of the screen so I have to wait for them to flip back and forth between different info instead of them just including it all accross the entire width of the screen.

And you don't even mention that the majority of shows broadcast in HD are still framed for 4:3 because it is the same feed used for SD (just cropped). Even the Super Bowl… very annoying!

Now we're talking about 3-D, but we really don't even have HD content yet (from the standpoint that cameramen and directors are not composing for the format).

As far as backward compatibility goes… my feeling is that few will go out in 2010 and pay a couple of hundred bucks (and service) for a TiVo with plans to hook it up to their dusty old SD set.

[memzinla]

I just want a fast UI.

[innocentfreak]

As far as backward compatibility goes… my feeling is that few will go out in 2010 and pay a couple of hundred bucks (and service) for a TiVo with plans to hook it up to their dusty old SD set.

Well I would be one of them. I still haven't upgraded since I haven't convinced myself to make the investment. I am just too cheap to drop the cash to upgrade from my 36" SD CRT.

Then again I only record HD since I can't stand centercut and this is one of the reasons I jumped from DTV to Fios. Fios doesn't charge extra for HD.

[Raj]

thats an Awesome idea!!!

Didn't SiliconDust develop something like that years ago for the S1?

[Raj]

Nothing I've ever downloaded from Amazon in HD has looked like crap. They've all played flawlessly at 1080i and looked about as good as most of my subscription HD movie channels.

That's not saying much. Even FiOS has (or had anyway) HBO HD at less than 10Mbps.

[nrc]

That's not saying much. Even FiOS has (or had anyway) HBO HD at less than 10Mbps.

It's still a higher bitrate than most people can stream.

[David Platt]

Didn't SiliconDust develop something like that years ago for the S1?

Yeah, the CacheCard. It wasn't USB storage, but an adapter that plugged into a free slot on the motherboard that let you add extra RAM to the TiVo. It worked beautifully.

[codog24]

Amen.

I just want a fast UI.

[ItsRounder]

I have to say I'll be shocked and amazed if this announcement is actually about anything I've been wanting them to change for quite a while now. I have the feeling that this will be a huge letdown. I really, really hope I'm wrong though.

[MickeS]

I have to say I'll be shocked and amazed if this announcement is actually about anything I've been wanting them to change for quite a while now. I have the feeling that this will be a huge letdown. I really, really hope I'm wrong though.
If what you have been wanting them to change is related to recording TV, I think you're right.

[jmpage2]

again,,, netflix stinks.... I suppose it's worth the $9 a month, but amazon is the way to go if you aren't on welfare.

final prediction:
- There will be a new HD interface that might or might not come to S3/tivoHD, they dont know yet
- there will be a qwerty remote, but they dont have it worked out quite yet
- in 1 year (maybe 2) they will have a live Comcast streaming agreement to become a Uverse competitor and the Premier will support that when it happens (very likely cause Tivo must do something like this to survive and Comcast cant do it on crappy Moto boxes)

What an incredibly insulting comment. Some of us use Netflix as our primary mechanism for movie watching, not because we are on welfare, but because we have very high end home theater setups and would prefer the bulk of our material to be delivered in Blu-ray format.

While instant downloads do offer some convenience, until they match the quality of a 25 or 50GB BD disc they will still be vastly inferior for the stuff we actually care about watching.

[ZeoTiVo]

What an incredibly insulting comment. Some of us use Netflix as our primary mechanism for movie watching, not because we are on welfare, but because we have very high end home theater setups and would prefer the bulk of our material to be delivered in Blu-ray format.

I think he meant the instant view streaming stuff.
Ironically the thought that came to my mind when reading his post was - well if money or convience is not an issue and I care about getting the best quality then I would skip all the broadband stuff entirely and use Blu-ray

[ZeoTiVo]

Yeah, the CacheCard. It wasn't USB storage, but an adapter that plugged into a free slot on the motherboard that let you add extra RAM to the TiVo. It worked beautifully.

Just for clarity's sake-
the way to attach that card is not present in Series 2 or beyond so there is nothing for them

[innocentfreak]

In regards to your post (http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?p=7800406#post7800406) in the final prediction thread.

they will likely leave the SD menus as classic for those that want to keep using them and for SD sets

I will be curious especially since I am still using SD sets even though I record HD only. It would also be somewhat disappointing if a new HD UI doesn't work in SD or have a SD option. Then again maybe it will make me buy a new HD TV or two.

[ZeoTiVo]

In regards to your post (http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?p=7800406#post7800406) in the final prediction thread.



I will be curious especially since I am still using SD sets even though I record HD only. It would also be somewhat disappointing if a new HD UI doesn't work in SD or have a SD option. Then again maybe it will make me buy a new HD TV or two.

The new HD menu will likely 'work' on SD sets the same way TiVo search does now. I think it would be more work than it is worth for TiVo to try and recreate something like TiVo search in SD or more specifically 4:3 format. If it was me I would let the current SD menus suffice (with changes for new features) and watch the 4:3 format sets fade over time. I mean this is on an HD capable TiVo DVR after all. ;)

[innocentfreak]

The new HD menu will likely 'work' on SD sets the same way TiVo search does now. I think it would be more work than it is worth for TiVo to try and recreate something like TiVo search in SD or more specifically 4:3 format. If it was me I would let the current SD menus suffice (with changes for new features) and watch the 4:3 format sets fade over time. I mean this is on an HD capable TiVo DVR after all. ;)

I guess I should look at TiVo Search. It always popped something up when I went into it about not being on HD so I never tried playing with it.

Yeah it makes sense lol.

[walkingdogs]

I'll choose Netflix over Amazon. Of course nothing comes close to VUDU except for a BD. So VUDU is my first choice. Netflix doesn't cost any extra which makes it a good value. Amazon has a cost and also looks like crap which puts it near the bottom.


If we could somehow get VUDU, Slingesque functionality and Boxee integration in to TiVo hardware they would rule the home entertainment world. There would be no need for any other device, which I would gladly welcome. I do have to disagree that Amazon looks like crap though. I'm actually quite happy with the Videos I have rented thus far but would gladly abandon it for VUDU.

[innocentfreak]

Well I caught just the last few seconds of the engadget HD live podcast comments on the Tivo Premiere. Apparently Ben and I don't think Richard was either are under embargo so if they know they didn't hear it from TiVo. It will be curious to see what if any coverage engadgethd has tomorrow or if someone from engadget is covering it.

They did say the people who were under embargo that they saw at CES were kind of meh about what they saw. They just didn't get the impression they were missing anything by not seeing what was by appointment only.

They started early so I missed all the TiVo talk and the podcast won't be out till after the announcement.

[DCIFRTHS]

Sorry if this has been posted already...

What time is this event supposed to take place?

Edit: I think I found it: 6:00 PM. Please correct me if I am wrong.

[Enrique]

Sorry if this has been posted already...

What time is this event supposed to take place?6PM is what the invite says.

http://www.zatznotfunny.com/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2010/02/tivo-event-nyc.jpg

[innocentfreak]

Also I think he said the embargo is lifted around 7 PM EST so we should know around then.

[LoREvanescence]

I'm looking forward to see what comes out of this announcment.

I haven't been following it closely so I'm not sure what to expect. Are we looking at just a new box from Best Buy or something that will come to existing Series3's too? I guess I'll have to wait until tonight after work to check back and see what comes out of this=)

[BlackBetty]

I wonder if some time tonight the TCF will create a new forum called: TiVo Series4 HDTV DVRs

[Mike Lang]

I wonder if some time tonight the TCF will create a new forum called: TiVo Series4 HDTV DVRs

Not exactly :cool:

[LoREvanescence]

Not exactly :cool:

haha, take out Series 4 then and replace it with Premier:up:

Looking forward to see what comes out tonight, to bad I don't get home from work until 10:00pm tonight

[TerpBE]

I think anybody who expects any type of sling capability is fooling themselves. It seems like somebody said, "hey it would be cool if Tivo had an integrated slingbox", and people just ran with it so that it's now considered to be a legitimate part of the conversation. It reminds me of when "Project Ginger" was projected to be a new cold fusion power generator/water purifier, and it turned out to just be a scooter.

I'd be happy if I was wrong though.

[adessmith]

I think anybody who expects any type of sling capability is fooling themselves. It seems like somebody said, "hey it would be cool if Tivo had an integrated slingbox", and people just ran with it so that it's now considered to be a legitimate part of the conversation. It reminds me of when "Project Ginger" was projected to be a new cold fusion power generator/water purifier, and it turned out to just be a scooter.

I'd be happy if I was wrong though.

As much as I hope you are wrong, I totally agree!
I dont think there has been any legitimate hint that tivo might be even discovering this posibility. I do believe that it would be a KILLER addition, one that I've been dying to see for some time.
However, with that said, I've just noticed that the sling box is no longer offered on the shopping page of tivos website... Does anyone know how long this has been the case? I remember that I came very close to purchasing one on the order with my last Tivo HD, so I know it was there in the past.

[ZeoTiVo]

haha, take out Series 4 then and replace it with Premier:up:

Looking forward to see what comes out tonight, to bad I don't get home from work until 10:00pm tonight

there really is no reason to make a new forum IMHO until a tru2way DVR is out - I doubt we will see one in 2010 due to the cable and CE companies still dithering about all the final pieces of the open standard.

[magnus]

Yep, would just need to need to remove the word Series3 from the current one.

[innocentfreak]

As much as I hope you are wrong, I totally agree!
I dont think there has been any legitimate hint that tivo might be even discovering this posibility. I do believe that it would be a KILLER addition, one that I've been dying to see for some time.
However, with that said, I've just noticed that the sling box is no longer offered on the shopping page of tivos website... Does anyone know how long this has been the case? I remember that I came very close to purchasing one on the order with my last Tivo HD, so I know it was there in the past.

Most of the people referring to sling capabilities got the info from the various tech blogs where a tipster sent them info that TiVo would also announce.

engadget (http://www.engadget.com/2010/02/11/new-ui-tweaked-hardware-in-store-for-tivos-march-reveal/)
Other fixes that should have the faithful drooling are a capacity meter for add-on drives and Tivo Desktop enhancements including "Sling-esque" features.

Thinking about this now makes some sense that it would now be possible especially on Windows 7. This is supposed to already work for 7MC with a remote connection through a laptop also running Windows 7.

[innocentfreak]

there really is no reason to make a new forum IMHO until a tru2way DVR is out - I doubt we will see one in 2010 due to the cable and CE companies still dithering about all the final pieces of the open standard.

Well if they have a different UI then I would say they need to make a separate forum for the Premieres. Of course this could also mean the older models will also have the new UI. Then again he could be referring to the fact they won't need to make one tonight since according to the BB leak we won't see them until the 27th.

[MickeS]

Is the UI speed problem limited to certain models? I have a 648-series 3 model with a 750GB HD (full), and I don't notice any problems with speed in the UI. There were some issues a few software revisions ago, but I haven't seen any problems for a long time.

[schwinn]

A USB flash memory could be used in the way the cache card worked in the S1. I think its a great idea to boost the UI speed.FlashRAM is way too slow compared to system RAM. The Cache Card used RAM (not flash) to do its job, which is why it works so well. USB sticks are too slow (flash-ram).

More RAM would be nice, in general... upgradable RAM would be nice, but I doubt that will ever happen.

[b_scott]

I think in order to really compete with Moxi and Windows Media Center PC's, Tivo is going to have to evolve into more of a media center than it already is. They need a sleek interface, and good search/easy recording, plus being able to stream media (not transfer to .tivo format).

[b_scott]

any way to get rid of the stupid redundant useless "HD Recordings" folder?

also, I want a way to save your season passes to their site online same as you can see your To Do Lists, etc. In case your box dies or you upgrade, then you don't have to re-do them all (and ones that aren't in the guide yet won't even be searchable anyway)

[shady]

also, I want a way to save your season passes to their site online same as you can see your To Do Lists, etc. In case your box dies or you upgrade, then you don't have to re-do them all (and ones that aren't in the guide yet won't even be searchable anyway)

I believe someone discovered that season passes are preserved when you upgrade your box. Something to do with a side benefit of kidzone?

[b_scott]

I believe someone discovered that season passes are preserved when you upgrade your box. Something to do with a side benefit of kidzone?

how?

[daveak]

I believe someone discovered that season passes are preserved when you upgrade your box. Something to do with a side benefit of kidzone?

Just turn Kid Zone on and you have the side benefit, nothing else you need to do. TiVo, of course, does not garuntee this benefit - nor do they advertise it, but it is there.

[MichaelK]

FlashRAM is way too slow compared to system RAM. The Cache Card used RAM (not flash) to do its job, which is why it works so well. USB sticks are too slow (flash-ram).

More RAM would be nice, in general... upgradable RAM would be nice, but I doubt that will ever happen.

but isn't the basic problem that tivo just needs to access the database on the drive at times and so it has to mix that in with recording and playback? So caching the database completely on the USB drive would help- no?

not really relevant to the premier but since we're stalling for 6 o'clock anyway...

[MichaelK]

Just turn Kid Zone on and you have the side benefit, nothing else you need to do. TiVo, of course, does not garuntee this benefit - nor do they advertise it, but it is there.

I thought you had to subscribe to one of the guru guides to get that to work?

[kevinwill1]

Just turn Kid Zone on and you have the side benefit, nothing else you need to do. TiVo, of course, does not garuntee this benefit - nor do they advertise it, but it is there.

Does this work for all versions of the TiVo? Or is this something restricted to only Series 3 or HD? All of my current boxes are Series 2, and I would love to upgrade as seemlessly as possible when the time comes.

[MichaelK]

Does this work for all versions of the TiVo? Or is this something restricted to only Series 3 or HD? All of my current boxes are Series 2, and I would love to upgrade as seemlessly as possible when the time comes.

I beleive you need to 'order' a guru guide. It causes the tivo service (eg the website or more specifically the tivo servers) to see what is on your box already so that it can figure out when you have open space to tell the box to record guru ghuide stuff too.

But it's box specific - so you could pull your drive and put a new on in and it will repopulate- but you can't someone get your S2' season passes onto an S3 (or something newer).

[b_scott]

I beleive you need to 'order' a guru guide. It causes the tivo service (eg the website or more specifically the tivo servers) to see what is on your box already so that it can figure out when you have open space to tell the box to record guru ghuide stuff too.

But it's box specific - so you could pull your drive and put a new on in and it will repopulate- but you can't someone get your S2' season passes onto an S3 (or something newer).

yeah, that last line is what I'm talking about. Like if I upgraded to whatever new Tivo is coming out. :(

[daveak]

Just turn Kid Zone on and you have the side benefit, nothing else you need to do. TiVo, of course, does not garuntee this benefit - nor do they advertise it, but it is there.

As stated above, I think you will need a Guru guide as well. I have both so I know I'm good. It's not like you can find the instructions on the TiVo website...

[timstack8969]

Will the TIVO Annoucement be on any TV channel at 6:00PM (G4 TV Maybe?) or on the internet?