TIVOHD box and associated picture sub par to Comcast receiver?

[fishermanbri]

Thanks for any help and hoping this to be an easy solution that I am overlooking.

Installed TIVO HD and associated Comcast (NH) cable card this week. A stretch to call the picture quality coming from TIVO to be HD on known HD channels. Significant noise around say lettering on a white on gray 'Today' show type crawler. General 'softness' of picture.

Called TIVO support went through some hoops, eventually I was told that my 100% cable signal and SNR at 38 was too strong and would have to be dumbed down to properly display HD?! I can't imagine the picture quality increasing with a weaker signal, but I'm no EE. Also, Comcast receiver seemed to display an outstanding picture from this same coax cable...without concern of 'tuner card' burn out. (Tivo tech's words)

With hopes that this helps shed further light...even the TIVO menus don't appear to be displaying in HD?! Setting to Native displays the most significant picture noise but it is clearly visible when looking at the edging on any of the 'stage floor lights' displayed on the background Tivo image from any other 780i, 1080 fixed etc.

Because the picture noise was clearly visible even in the TIVO menu I assumed electronic interference of some type. Moving the TIVO out of the entertainment center and feeding in the picture didn't alter the display. Nor did using HDMI instead of the original component and feeding in from the outside.

Finally can someone confirm or deny whether or not there is 'overhead' when feeding to the TIVO as the receiver? Even on my series 2 it was my feeling (though I was reluctant to acknowledge) that the picture quality through my TIVO was less then that of plugging directly into the TV? I had split the cable and run directly into TV and TIVO and so would scroll through the 'inputs' and have to say that the picture coming from TIVO was visibly worse then direct to TV from coax and same splitter. I assumed that the HD series would have addressed this but it seems only to have been exacerbated?

Thanks for any help and look forward to some meaningful insight. Hoping to be missing something easy.

A satisfied S2 consumer but a less so satisfied 3 HD user.

[bkdtv]

The TiVo menus and graphics are SD, upconverted and overlayed on a 720p HD background. The TiVo background is compressed, which may exhibit artifacts if you look close enough.

Comcast's HD channels generally start at around 210, although you're probably aware that many channels don't do HD 24/7. Most of the HD content on the local networks is shown after 7-8pm on weekdays.

In most areas, Comcast passes local HD channels as it they are broadcast, but that doesn't stop your local affiliates from overcompressing their HD feeds to make room for weather, news, and other subchannels. Every affiliate SD subchannel, usually numbered in the 200-209 range, takes away quality from the network HD feed. Comcast is also known to recompress cable networks, as illustrated here (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1008271).

Make sure you are using the same HDMI input as your old box. Most modern displays store separate settings for each input (including separate settings for the internal tuner) so if you connect the TiVo to a new HDMI or component input, it will be using the default TV settings, rather than the TV settings you've tweaked for the cable box or the built-in tuner. TV settings have a substantial impact on the quality of the picture.

Finally can someone confirm or deny whether or not there is 'overhead' when feeding to the TIVO as the receiver? Even on my series 2 it was my feeling (though I was reluctant to acknowledge) that the picture quality through my TIVO was less then that of plugging directly into the TV? All DVRs must convert analog signals to digital before they can be written to disk. This conversion and the associated compression is lossy, so analog channels will always look better when tuned directly by the TV.

The TivoHD is able to save digital SD and HD signals to the hard drive as is, so there is no quality loss on those channels. Recordings on digital channels are bit-for-bit identical to the original broadcast. The differences would be in how your TV handles video processing for the internal tuner vs. HDMI input. Not all TVs necessarily process signals from the internal tuner and external inputs in exactly the same way, though most cannot tell a difference once both are configured with the appropriate settings.

The first place to look is your TV settings. A number of TVs enable edge enhancement by default (ex: DNIE on Samsung TVs), which also introduces noise into the picture. If you bought a well-known brand like LG, Panasonic, Samsung, or Sony, you can probably find recommended settings in the "owner's thread" for your TV on the AVS Forum (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/forumdisplay.php?f=166).

Note if you see white noise or white speckles, that is usually indicative of a defective HDMI cable.

[schwinn]

You mention picture noise on the Tivo menu - this implies there's something wrong with your cabling or your TV... or maybe the video card in the TivoHD. I know they recently replaced my TivoHD for potential video card problems (I'm implying that they may be having such a problem with some frequency). I'd suggest calling Tivo and troubleshooting with them first, since the Tivo menu is not a fault of Comcast's signals. Fix this first, then see if it solves the other issues as well.

[fishermanbri]

Thanks to you both for the help and quick replies. I will attempt to modify individual TV input with hopes of addressing issue. Though before moving to the current HDMI I was using component with the same TV input used with Comcast, so don't have high hopes there.

Information on the Menu's is invaluable...though a little confusing. Create an HD box without making the menus true HD? In any case I am using this screenshot as my guide and can say that the edges of the lettering on my Tivo are much more Atari 2600 like then they are looking like the HD menu screenshots from the Tivo site.

The picture noise I experience isn't white but more like lighter shades of the surrounding and intended color. The HDMI cable being used is brand new and I have a second to eliminate this as the cause.

Would welcome additional information but if I can't start by getting my Tivo menu independent of the cable issues looking like the Tivo's screenshots shown online then this thing has to go back...as in Schwinn's case.

Thanks again to anyone with additional input.

[bkdtv]

Information on the Menu's is invaluable...though a little confusing. Create an HD box without making the menus true HD?The TivoHD was released in 2007. DVR CPUs weren't available with sufficient performance to support a compelling HD UI until late 2008. At this time, there is only one DVR on the market with a HD UI (Moxi).

All cable and satellite providers use SD or stretched SD UIs upconverted to HD resolution.

In any case I am using this screenshot as my guide and can say that the edges of the lettering on my Tivo are much more Atari 2600 like then they are looking like the HD menu screenshots from the Tivo site.I'm not sure what screenshots you are talking about, but you can find HD video demos and HD screenshots taken by me in the TivoHD FAQ: Overview, Using TiVo, Tips, and Issues (http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?t=419994) sticky. Click the images to see full-resolution PNGs.

The picture noise I experience isn't white but more like lighter shades of the surrounding and intended color. The HDMI cable being used is brand new and I have a second to eliminate this as the cause.Your HDMI cable could be defective (it happens), but it sounds to me like a TV settings issue.

Stick with HDMI and adjust the settings as others recommend on the AVS Forum for your model.

[schwinn]

FYI www.monoprice.com makes excellent, high-quality cables, for very good pricing...

[fishermanbri]

Thanks again to both of you guys. In the end I reached the conclusion that this device is junk and ended up getting an refund for credit for the Tivo HD and it went back today. I sincerely appreciate both of your posts to help me.

This is a bit of a rant so bear with and I would welcome corrections in any area where I may be wrong. Bdktv, I saw your link out there before I posted and just revisited for the screenshots. Thanks so much for the thoroughness of that document and it was the first one I came to when starting out on this troubleshooting journey. Having revisited, I now see that your screenshots match what I saw at home, diagonals in letters within the UI have significant ‘steps’ to create these lines. I wasn’t able to post the links to TiVo’s own screenshots that I reference earlier because I don’t have enough posts yet. But you can visit them by adding your own ‘http’ and ‘www’ to tivo.com/abouttivo/resourcecenter/screenshots/index.html. Click on the High-definition screen shot subset and compare the last two screenshots they show. (‘Record to DVD’ and ‘Broadband video’). Record to DVD is what you, I and the world apparently get from the TiVo UI. (I recognize the Humax but don’t believe it comes into play as the listed screen resolution matches the other shots) Every other screenshot listed show what is clearly an HD UI. A quick look at the lettering or the TiVo icon itself makes it clear that these screenshots either weren’t taken from TiVo’s own equipment or doctored to make them look better then what TiVo HD can actually deliver.

But hey…I can make peace with the menu issues and so move forward eliminating the TV inputs as expected no change. Then I get onto the nuts and bolts of the cable image itself, I have digital cable from Comcast, as I understand it everything I get has already been converted to digital on its way in. Computer generated crawlers on someplace like Fox News with an excellent HD broadcast show image noise around all lines. This issue simply does not exist when video was being delivered directly to the TV or through the Comcast receiver. This leads me to believe that the video card or processor in the TiVo in itself is so bad that it can’t even stand up next to the TV’s tuner. No excuse for this.
Finally, on to the most frustrating issue, TiVo can’t even stay out of its own way with its despicable interpretation of the inbound image and the resolution it was shot at. It is one thing to have the show display ok and have commercials inappropriately come up with letterboxes on the top, bottom, left and right. …but quite another to come home yesterday to my wife watching an HD show with letterboxes on the left, right, top and bottom and an image that hurt my eyes for a show that must have been shot in some other resolution then TiVo was set at. I unhooked it right then and spent the next 4 hours trying to educate uneducated support staff on what junk this thing was.

I honestly don't believe that you even have to be a 'prosumer' to be dissatisfied with this thing as my wife who doesn't even care about HD acknowledges how poor it is. It is no wonder there are 80 pages on the sticky addressing pixilation issues on this model. The ridiculously bad handling of the 480 vs 720 vs 1080 broadcast literally puts the consumer in the position of deciding if it is more important to have a good image or whether or not you want to sacrifice some HD for the ability to record it via TiVo. But nature dictates that the HD come first and so you are forced to take a step back in image quality to use TiVo. Not a great approach.

I am left feeling that TiVo felt so threatened by the cable providers that they rushed this thing to market before truly figuring out how to appropriately handle the display…and still haven’t figured it out 3 years later now in 2010. The infrared approach was infinitely better, when TiVo could do what it did best (record) and cable provider could do what it does best (display a good image).

Again, no HD menu on an HD TiVo?! What genius could have possibly allowed that to happen. ESPN generates better graphics every day then TiVo could make one time for a UI upgrade?

Anyway I know how strong TiVo advocates are (I used to be one) and so I hope you don’t take this post personally. Just calling this thing out after one of the most disappointing purchase experiences in some time.

Take good care of yourself out there and hope to be able to return your favor sometime down the road.

[bkdtv]

Again, no HD menu on an HD TiVo?! What genius could have possibly allowed that to happen. ESPN generates better graphics every day then TiVo could make one time for a UI upgrade?ESPN generates its graphics with equipment costing tens of thousands of dollars.

Like most cable and satellite DVRs, the TivoHD is designed around a $30 DVR CPU introduced in 2007. These chips don't have the processing power to support a responsive HD UI. That's why every cable company and Dish/DirecTV DVR has an upconverted SD UI. Newer, faster chips were introduced in the past year, although as of today, Moxi is the only company to deliver a HD UI with such a chip.

Having revisited, I now see that your screenshots match what I saw at home, diagonals in letters within the UI have significant ‘steps’ to create these lines. That's a result of the upconverted SD text. You see upconverted SD text on every cable and satellite box, aside from Moxi.

Most people don't watch their TV from a few feet away, so they don't find the text rendering bothersome.

Fyi: If you watched the Youtube video (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GNvgoLVzijE&hd=1) with Flash 10.1b1 installed, that will not be representative of what you see on a TiVo. Flash 10.1b1 didn't filter correctly with many PC video cards, and the result was inferior HD playback.

Then I get onto the nuts and bolts of the cable image itself, I have digital cable from Comcast, as I understand it everything I get has already been converted to digital on its way in. Computer generated crawlers on someplace like Fox News with an excellent HD broadcast show image noise around all lines.I doubt you are getting Fox News HD with your built-in TV tuner, so I'm not sure what you are comparing. Are you talking about Fox News SD? A few Comcast systems still offer analog-only versions of channels <100 to CableCard devices, and until that changes, those channels will always look better tuned directly by the TV. The conversion of analog channels (<100) to digital by the TiVo and other DVRs will result in noticeable degradation.

For the local HD channels that you can tune with the TV, some displays do handle input from the internal tuners differently than external HDMI inputs. The result is better quality on the internal tuner. If a TV applies inferior processing to a HDMI input, there's not much TiVo can do about that. Most newer TVs do offer a "1:1 " or "Just scan" option in their menus to minimize the processing (and quality loss) applied by the TV on HDMI input. Look for that option.

Finally, on to the most frustrating issue, TiVo can’t even stay out of its own way with its despicable interpretation of the inbound image and the resolution it was shot at.If you want everything output at the same resolution like the Comcast HD box, set the output to fixed 720p or fixed 1080i. TiVo gives you more options, but if you are satisfied with the fixed output option on the HD cable box, you can use the same option on the TiVo. In this case, it sounds like are complaining about extra, optional settings on the TiVo that the cable company box does not have.

…but quite another to come home yesterday to my wife watching an HD show with letterboxes on the left, right, top and bottom and an image that hurt my eyes for a show that must have been shot in some other resolution then TiVo was set at.I assume you have a 16:9 display and selected a 16:9 TV in TiVo setup (Messages & Settings -> Settings -> Video).

Some HD cable channels show upconverted SD content in letterbox form; on that content, you get black bars on every side of the picture. You see the same thing regardless of whether you are using the TiVo or the cable company box.

I am left feeling that TiVo felt so threatened by the cable providers that they rushed this thing to market before truly figuring out how to appropriately handle the display…and still haven’t figured it out 3 years later now in 2010. The infrared approach was infinitely better, when TiVo could do what it did best (record) and cable provider could do what it does best (display a good image).Recording the digital signal as is the only way to produce pristine HD output. It's not possible to record encrypted digital output via HDMI, and recording HD analog output from another box results in substantial quality loss.

To reiterate once again, TiVo uses the same Broadcom video processors as most cable and satellite HD DVRs. The main difference is in the added memory (256MB on TiVo vs 128MB on most cable co boxes), the TiVo software, and added OTA tuners. If you are seeing something different, then your TiVo is defective, your HDMI cable is defective, you aren't using the same TV and DVR output settings, or you aren't comparing the same digital content.

Edit: Another possibility is a cable signal issue, but you didn't report whether you saw RS Uncorrected errors -- errors that cause audio dropouts and pixelization -- on your System Information -> DVR Diagnostics screen.

[jlib]

fishermanbri, you should have listened to TiVo and attenuated your hot signal. Comcast would have given you an attenuator or you can buy one for a few bucks. The TiVo is more sensitive than most other devices which is a good thing most of the time, especially if your signal is at 70.

You also should have spent more time understanding the various output settings. The 3 settings are interrelated. But I guess at this point it doesn't matter anymore.

[Wil]

You also should have spent more time understanding the various output settings. The 3 settings are interrelated. But I guess at this point it doesn't matter anymore.So we're taking this all very seriously, are we?

[DocNo]

To reiterate once again, TiVo uses the same Broadcom video processors as most cable and satellite HD DVRs. The main difference is in the added memory (256MB on TiVo vs 128MB on most cable co boxes), the TiVo software, and added OTA tuners. If you are seeing something different, then your TiVo is defective, your HDMI cable is defective, you aren't using the same TV and DVR output settings, or you aren't comparing the same digital content.

Exactly. I'm certainly not seeing issues the OP was posting about.

I replaced a Scientific Atlanta HD cable box (comcast) with a Tivo HD (found one of the last Sears $50 floor models - was a no brainer) and my picture improved on all channels, but esp. on HD channels.

One thing I would also be sure of - some cable boxes will automatically substitute the HD channel when you tune into the SD channel number, but Tivo doesn't (argh! the DirecTV DVR has a setting to automatically hide the SD channel for any channel that has an HD equivalent - I *really* like that feature). I would make sure you were tuning into the HD channel. It's easy on Tivo to see if you are - if you bring up the program info screen, at the very end of the description it should say HD, 720p or 1080i - if there is no indication of the resolution or if it says 480i it won't look like HD - because it isn't!

And as for the menu quality, meh - they are perfectly functional and as they say, if you are spending enough time in the menu's to notice their quality your doing something wrong :cool:

[DocNo]

To reiterate once again, TiVo uses the same Broadcom video processors as most cable and satellite HD DVRs. The main difference is in the added memory (256MB on TiVo vs 128MB on most cable co boxes), the TiVo software, and added OTA tuners. If you are seeing something different, then your TiVo is defective, your HDMI cable is defective, you aren't using the same TV and DVR output settings, or you aren't comparing the same digital content.

Exactly. I'm certainly not seeing issues the OP was posting about.

I replaced a Scientific Atlanta HD cable box (comcast) with a Tivo HD (found one of the last Sears $50 floor models - was a no brainer) and my picture improved on all channels, but esp. on HD channels.

One thing I would also be sure of - some cable boxes will automatically substitute the HD channel when you tune into the SD channel number, but Tivo doesn't (argh! the DirecTV DVR has a setting to automatically hide the SD channel for any channel that has an HD equivalent - I *really* like that feature). I would make sure you were tuning into the HD channel. It's easy on Tivo to see if you are - if you bring up the program info screen, at the very end of the description it should say HD, 720p or 1080i - if there is no indication of the resolution or if it says 480i it won't look like HD - because it isn't!

And as for the menu quality, meh - they are perfectly functional and as they say, if you are spending enough time in the menu's to notice their quality your doing something wrong :cool:

Also, I would much rather have the menus be responsive rather than pretty, and unfortunately with each software release the UI has progressively gotten slower :( I can only imagine how slow they would be if they were HD. And if you want ugly, go look at some of the Echostar equipment. I haven't seen their newer boxes, but for the longest time their UI was so butt-ugly that even I would have been bothered enough that I wouldn't have selected them.

[bitjumper]

Actually...

Years ago I was a happy DishPlayer HD owner, enjoying seamless Dish and OTA HD reception. The OTA quality was fantastic. The U/I was fantastic. I was very sad when we moved and had to switch to Comcast HD DVR. But, just as the Comcast rep told me, "most people get used to it and are fine."

I recently finally dropped Comcast and switched to Tivo HD OTA. I did this to save $100/month -- noticing we hardly watched anything not available OTA.

I immediately noticed slightly poorer HD video quality on the Tivo HD. At first it drove me nuts (since I'm very picky). I see very subtle horizontal banding on solid colors and solid grays. But now I'm forgetting about it. I realize I'm saving near $100/month. So I can put up without the absolute best. And I honestly see the banding less and less every week -- mostly because I'm not worrying about it -- and instead concentrating on the shows themselves.

I don't want to start a "it's your cable" war or something similar. (I'm using the same cable, I just switched out the box.) I'm not sure if it is "group think" or what. But all the comments about "crappy cable boxes" on this forum gets me wondering where that comes from. It doesn't jive with my experience at all. The Tivo HD is not really better.

Currently I think the Tivo HD and my old Comcast DVR are kind of a wash. I'd actually give the Comcast an extra half-star due to the better video quality and due to a particular U/I feature I don't understand why Tivo doesn't have (being able to see what is going to record on the guide itself.) Unless someone is doing what I'm doing, dropping Comcast for $$$, I don't see any technical, U/I, or quality benefit to using the Tivo HD over the Comcast HD DVR box. In fact, the Comcast box is an easier total solution. Going OTA is an antenna hassle.

I must say I'm eagerly waiting for the next Tivo generation. I hope it comes this year. With all the money I'm saving going OTA, I don't mind buying new hardware. I'm hoping Tivo comes out with something really nice.

Erik