Will Tivo ever use better guide data?

[Gavroche]

Maybe it's just me, but the guide data on my Tivo seems to have gotten progressively worse over the last 6 months or so. It used to be that once in a great while there would be a problem with the guide data, where it would list an incorrect program title occasionally, but now I seem to be noticing it far more frequently.

Strangely enough, whatever source Comcast uses for their guide data is almost always correct when the Tivo guide is wrong. I know this because I can see the Comcast channel banner with the guide data on recordings on my Series 2 DVR.

Overall the guide problems that I've experienced fall into 3 major categories:


Wrong program specified. Tivo says it recorded one thing, but it really got something else, while I can see on the Comcast channel banner the correct information.


Wrong episode title or description listed. Tivo recorded the right program, but the description is for a different episode. Again, the Comcast banner shows the correct information.


Timing. Sometimes the time-slots for programs on the guide are not exactly correct and the Tivo misses a portion of the program. (It's especially annoying when I've missed the start of something!) Again, the Comcast channel banner shows the correct timeframe.


What is going on?

[MichaelK]

interesting- I cant remember besides my local dink pbs that i've gotten bad guide data.

I wonder what comcast uses though- sounds better.

[Gavroche]

interesting- I cant remember besides my local dink pbs that i've gotten bad guide data.

I wonder what comcast uses though- sounds better.

Exactly my point. If there's some entitiy out there providing better guide data...

Then again perhaps the issues I'm seeing are isolated to where I live. I am sort of curious about why it just seems to be happening more frequently lately. There have been times recently where there have been 3 programs at a time in my now playing list with incorrect data. (My now-playing list takes about a week or so to cycle on my Series 2 DT.)

Of course, that might not mean anything. The percentage of incorrect guide data could be consistent and it could just be a coincidence that I now happen to be recording more of the items that are incorrect in the Tivo guide.

Either way, it would be absolutely awesome if the accuracy of the guide data were to improve some, considering that accurate guide data is essential to the main function of the device.

[SpiritualPoet]

Being that viewership is fragmented more and more as younger audiences have a diversity of viewing options (YouTube, PPV, Netflix, cable, broadcast etc.), the industry is continuing to change program lineups quickly to try to get the highest rating share possible. Monthly viewing guides are unable to keep up with these changes, (both for satelite and cable operators), and weekly publications such as TV Guide and local newspapers' Sunday TV listings can't hardly keep up either. TV Guide realized this ongoing nightmare a few years ago and gave up trying to maintain complete listings. It's no wonder that Tribune Media Services and any other data company have a near impossibility to keep daily changes reflected. For a machine like TiVo, which relies on a nightly download, typicially, and preset manual recordings, one time preset recordings, and season passes, to keep up with all the changes, I for one think we are getting the best possible result, all things considered. It isn't a perfect world. It is what it is.

[ZeoTiVo]

first report I have seen like this in a while, I would think it is specific to your locale at the moment. I use TWC North Carolina and have not had any issues save for the usual daily show junk data

[bkdtv]

Maybe it's just me, but the guide data on my Tivo seems to have gotten progressively worse over the last 6 months or so. It used to be that once in a great while there would be a problem with the guide data, where it would list an incorrect program title occasionally, but now I seem to be noticing it far more frequently.

Strangely enough, whatever source Comcast uses for their guide data is almost always correct when the Tivo guide is wrong. I know this because I can see the Comcast channel banner with the guide data on recordings on my Series 2 DVR.Tribune (used by TiVo, DirecTV, Dish Network, Windows Media Center) isn't perfect, but it's still the most reliable source of guide data available.

In various Comcast forums, you'll find dozens of complaints about the guide data on their DVRs:

http://www.dslreports.com/forum/r22694293-DVR-DVR-recording-every-show
http://www.dslreports.com/forum/r22712340-DVR-Repeat-Updated-071509
http://www.dslreports.com/forum/r18970805-recorder-records-every-occurance-no-matter-what
http://www.dslreports.com/forum/r23055257-DVR-A28-Guide-any-changes-in-Series-Recordings
http://www.dslreports.com/forum/r22709792-DVR-DVRs-dont-recognize-New-Repeats

You may notice examples where Comcast's (TVGuide) information is accurate and TiVo's (Tribune) is not, but if you had one of their DVRs, I think you'd find that guide data errors on Comcast far outnumber those on TiVo, Moxi, DirecTV, etc.

A number of cable DVRs do have the advantage when scheduling changes are made less than ~24 hours prior to broadcast. TiVo updates the guide data on their servers each afternoon, but every TiVo only connects once per day (typically between 11pm and 3am) to download guide data. Networks rarely make scheduling changes in the in 12-24 hours prior to broadcast, but when they do, the TiVo isn't likely to have that information.

That was the case with a Fringe episode earlier this month, which replaced World Series game7 when the Yankees won game6 (and the series) the previous night.

Sample Timeline
Monday 4pm - TiVo updates guide data on servers.
Monday 11pm - Your TiVo connects to download guide data from 4pm update
Tuesday 9am - Network changes its schedule for Tuesday night.
Tuesday 4pm - TiVo updates guide data on servers <-- Your TiVo doesn't have this yet
Tuesday 8pm - New or changed program your TiVo doesn't have in its guide
Tuesday 11pm - Your TiVo connects to download guide data from 4pm update

[jbernardis]

I recently started getting over 80 new HD channels from comcast. The tivo was what told me about it. The tivo guide was accurate, and I received a message telling me about the new channels. It wasn't for many weeks afterwards that the comcast guide was accurate, and I have yet to receive any kind of announcement form them.

[bicker]

I haven't noted any significant negative trend in program guide data accuracy. It's been pretty consistent over time. And I don't know of any source that is more consistently accurate.

[Phantom Gremlin]

Tribune Company, the parent of Tribune Media Services, filed Chapter 11 about a year ago. I wonder if that has anything to do with the (perceived) deterioration of guide data quality.

[jayfest]

I recently started getting over 80 new HD channels from comcast. The tivo was what told me about it. The tivo guide was accurate, and I received a message telling me about the new channels. It wasn't for many weeks afterwards that the comcast guide was accurate, and I have yet to receive any kind of announcement form them.

In my area, Comcast sometimes places an ad in the local newspaper announcing the new channels, sometimes even before they arrive. But of course, if you don't happen to see that ad (or if you don't read that particular newspaper), you might not know about it. There have been many times I've found about new channels from my TiVo well before I heard about them from Comcast. And when I had the Comcast DVR, when I got new DVR features from Comcast, they informed me about it NEVER (not that they actually did introduce many new features or bug fixes to the DVR software, but there actually were a few), unlike TiVo, which was much more forthcoming with info about upgrades. As the old expression goes, TiVo has the worst service....except for all the other ones!

[mattack]

Timing. Sometimes the time-slots for programs on the guide are not exactly correct and the Tivo misses a portion of the program. (It's especially annoying when I've missed the start of something!) Again, the Comcast channel banner shows the correct timeframe.


What do you mean by this one? Do you mean the *slight* overlap that has been happening for MANY MANY MANY years? (The first example I personally can think of is 'er', which used to start about a minute before the guide data said. Jeez, that was almost a decade ago now.)

Still, many programs start early or end late, which requires 'padding' on the Tivo (Tivo software didn't used to have padding, it was a great day when that was added). Yes, this shouldn't be needed. Blame the networks. Offhand, everything on Discovery, E!, History Channel needs to be end padded by one minute.. Everything on MTV needs a *few minutes* of padding on either end since they slip either way (the various real world shows & awards shows are the only things I watch there).

If not for this, what do you mean? The only other kinds of time slot problems are likely due to sports or something else that caused the schedule to move.

[Bierboy]

I haven't noted any significant negative trend in program guide data accuracy. It's been pretty consistent over time. And I don't know of any source that is more consistently accurate.
Nor I. TMS data has been very reliable on my TiVos.

[sinanju]

It is generally reliable, but it fails. Recent examples of TMS failures:


It's always sunny in Philadelphia: This year and last FX changed the schedule making a back-to-back episode run either one episode and then two or the reverse and TiVo royally screwed it up as a repeat or as an episode no longer in the guide. There is a long-standing bug in the scheduler about reasons for not recording not being updated even when they change, so its hard to tell.
New episode of Fringe in the World Series game 7 slot: It happened and most cable company DVRs were updated. Many TiVos were not.


I can't speak to the relative reliability of TMS/TiVo vs the Cable Cos, but whenever I read about TiVo failures, folk seem to remark that, "my neighbor's DVR got it right."

[rainwater]

New episode of Fringe in the World Series game 7 slot: It happened and most cable company DVRs were updated. Many TiVos were not.


This really isn't a guide data issue though. Tivo does support XMPP now for real-time notifications (like for TivoCasts downloads). I hope someday they can use the system for last minute guide changes (presidential addresses, world series changes, etc). My guess is the system isn't designed for pushing changes, and TiVos have to pull all new guide data since the last update. So it would probably bring down Tivo's servers if every box made a service connection at the same time.

[JohnBrowning]

OP, it sounds to me like your real question is "Is there a source of better guide data available to TiVo?" I don't know of any, do you?

[hybucket]

OP, it sounds to me like your real question is "Is there a source of better guide data available to TiVo?" I don't know of any, do you?

Add me to the list saying that the TiVO Guide, with any problems that might occasionally exist, is far and away superior to any others I have seen (and I haven't really seen that many, other than Comcast, which is DREADFUL, along with their DVR, recording a SEASON PASS every time it's on for that week, and there's no way to stop it!).

[astrohip]

Rarely have a problem. In fact, can't remember the last time the guide was significantly in error. Most of what I watch is SP, not a lot of manual recordings, and I validate my To-Do List weekly against Futon Critic.

Having said that, PBS is terrible, but I assume that's PBS and not the guide.

New episode of Fringe in the World Series game 7 slot
Fluke. Not a recurring event. I expect to babysit any DVR when events like World Series or Pres news conferences occur.

[TiVoEvan74]

"Comcast, which is DREADFUL, along with their DVR, recording a SEASON PASS every time it's on for that week, and there's no way to stop it!)."

That's horrendous! It undermines the very meaning of a Season's Pass! Viva Tivo! :)

[sinanju]

Fluke. Not a recurring event. I expect to babysit any DVR when events like World Series or Pres news conferences occur.

Yet, if reports are to believed, those with cable company DVRs didn't have a problem. Fluke or not, they dealt with it and TiVo didn't.

There are other examples. Those are just two that occurred in the last few months. TBS frequently is missing data where TV Guide has it.

[sinanju]

Here's another example: Tonight's Robin Hood on BBCA: Two airings of episode 313... one at 9pm and one at 12am. There are full episode descriptions on both airings including identical episode numbers and original air dates. I have a first-run-only season pass and both are recorded? Clearly there is some other meta data that Tribune should be providing that the TiVo is depending upon, yet TMS can't identify unique episodes.

[Gavroche]

OP, it sounds to me like your real question is "Is there a source of better guide data available to TiVo?" I don't know of any, do you?

It was more of a curiosity issue as to how Comcast seems to have the correct data on some occasions when Tivo doesn't. I wonder where Comcast gets their guide data?

[lrhorer]

Yet, if reports are to believed, those with cable company DVRs didn't have a problem. Fluke or not, they dealt with it and TiVo didn't.
As always, YMMV. When I had the (barf!!) SA 8300, and TWC here was adding channels like mad, the 8300 was always way behind - usualy at least a month or two - while my S1 TiVo usually had the new lineup in a day or two. Heck, even the Channel 99 broadcast guide was never correct.

There are other examples. Those are just two that occurred in the last few months. TBS frequently is missing data where TV Guide has it.
The only "problem" I have had here to any significant extent is that the guide has shown STARZCHD to be available here for over 2 years. It isn't. 'Not difficult to ignore, though.

[lrhorer]

It was more of a curiosity issue as to how Comcast seems to have the correct data on some occasions when Tivo doesn't. I wonder where Comcast gets their guide data?
If you mean the chanel line-up, TMS gets it the same place Comcast does - from the local Comcast programming department. If you mean the individual channel schedules - they get it from the broadcasters.

[hybucket]

Here's another example: Tonight's Robin Hood on BBCA: Two airings of episode 313... one at 9pm and one at 12am. There are full episode descriptions on both airings including identical episode numbers and original air dates. I have a first-run-only season pass and both are recorded? Clearly there is some other meta data that Tribune should be providing that the TiVo is depending upon, yet TMS can't identify unique episodes.

TiVO has had a problem with that particular listing for a couple of weeks now..there also was a problem with BBCA's SKINS a few months ago. But these are far fewer and far-between than what happens with Comcast. Nothing is perfect, but TiVO comes closer than any other.

[bkdtv]

It was more of a curiosity issue as to how Comcast seems to have the correct data on some occasions when Tivo doesn't. I wonder where Comcast gets their guide data?Comcast uses information from RoVi (TVGuide). TiVo, Moxi, DirecTV, and Dish Network use Tribune.

Neither supplies guide data that is accurate 100% of the time. There are times when one has accurate guide data and the other does not. But overall, Tribune is the more reliable guide data provider; there are far more instances where Tribune is right and TVGuide is wrong than vice-versa.

[kettledrum]

I don't know what service U-Verse gets their guide data from, but from my expereinces, it isn't as good as TiVo's.

[MichaelK]

In my area, Comcast sometimes places an ad in the local newspaper announcing the new channels, sometimes even before they arrive. But of course, if you don't happen to see that ad (or if you don't read that particular newspaper), you might not know about it. There have been many times I've found about new channels from my TiVo well before I heard about them from Comcast. And when I had the Comcast DVR, when I got new DVR features from Comcast, they informed me about it NEVER (not that they actually did introduce many new features or bug fixes to the DVR software, but there actually were a few), unlike TiVo, which was much more forthcoming with info about upgrades. As the old expression goes, TiVo has the worst service....except for all the other ones!


i beleive that's the law here in NJ that they have to place an ad (as in singular) in ONE paper X days before they add and Y days before they move and Z days before they delete channels.

Seems north Jersey the paper of choice is the star ledger- but if you dont know that new channels are coming on Jan 30 then we dont know to look X days in advance before they add 'em.

I guess it's better than nothing but I often read the paper and see the add for 'comcast of west whatever' and think- gee did everyone in west whatever see that add today....