Day One: NBC Cancels another before it starts

[GadgetFreak]

I was reading about NBC canceling Southland before it started. Looks like they have also reduced Day One from a 13 episode order to a 4 hour miniseries. I hadn't really heard much about this, but am into Sci-Fi and the trailer looks pretty cool.

http://news-briefs.ew.com/2009/10/01/nbcs-day-one-downgraded-to-miniseries-are-networks-scared-of-sci-fi/

Here is the trailer:

http://www.thrfeed.com/2009/07/video-nbc-day-one-trailer.html

[ElJay]

The idea of Day One may be better as a miniseries. Have any episodes been shot yet? If so it seems kind of late to make this decision, and any miniseries that gets pumped out will more than likely be an editing disaster. Another prime example of NBC on the cheap.

The article mentions viewership is down for Dollhourse and Fringe. Fox is apparently trying its best to kill Fringe by making it fight among all the other shows on Thursday.

[Alfer]

I think someone already posted this article in another sci-fi related thread.

[Alfer]

Yup...here's a full thread talking about that very article.

http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?t=434467

[GadgetFreak]

Yup...here's a full thread talking about that very article.

http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?t=434467

I had seen that thread but had not read the article. While I do think networks tend to shy away from sci-fi, I think the point here is that scripted drama is suffering as a result of Leno taking up the 10pm slot 5 days a week. They put Mercy and Trauma on and the ratings are poor. They have not been canceled yet but perhaps should be. Both were critical bombs also. But Southland was highly regarded and it is unusual to cancel a show before it starts -- in this case NBC has done it twice.

Seems like a number of threads are related to this -- one about how Leno is killing NBC, the one you mention about Sci-Fi, and the one about Southland being cancelled.

[bicker]

While I do think networks tend to shy away from sci-fi, I think the point here is that scripted drama is suffering as a result of Leno taking up the 10pm slot 5 days a week.But then you say... They put Mercy and Trauma on and the ratings are poor. They have not been canceled yet but perhaps should be. Both were critical bombs also.So if Mercy and Trauma were among the best shows NBC had to present, what makes you think that having a few more shows at 10PM would have resulted in better?

The problem is not necessarily just the shows, but also the viewers. We viewers don't provide the kind of incentive for broadcasters to provide us what we perhaps might want, as we had in the past. And y'know I think we might be much less consistent and less predictable than before.

But Southland was highly regardedNot by me. I didn't make it through the first episode.

Of course, I have a TiVo, so I don't matter anyway.

Seems like a number of threads are related to this -- one about how Leno is killing NBC, the one you mention about Sci-Fi, and the one about Southland being cancelled.All with the same recurring theme: "Broadcasters are not doing what viewers want." What I've pointed out in all these threads is exactly what I'm pointing out here: It's mutual. Viewers are not doing what broadcasters want either. As long as we continue to fail to serve each other's needs, neither side is going to get most of what they want.

However, no friggen way I'm giving up my TiVo. No friggen way am I going to watch commercials. No friggen way am I going to pay for stuff I can get for free. I'm not going to give the broadcasters what they want; let 'em die, for all I care. (Not really; I'm joking, but many viewers really don't care about broadcasters getting what they want, and would myopically prefer to see the broadcasters die -- without thinking through what that would mean to viewers -- rather see broadcasters die than see changes take place that would result in motivating broadcasters to do more of what viewers want them to do.)

[Bob_Newhart]

I love post parsing.

[LoadStar]

But then you say... So if Mercy and Trauma were among the best shows NBC had to present, what makes you think that having a few more shows at 10PM would have resulted in better?

Well, yeah, NBC's failing isn't solely because of Leno taking up the 5 hours of prime-time. A big reason for failing is Ben Silverman and the train wreck of a pilot slate he left the current management to pick from.

That said, had Leno NOT been filling up all those prime-time slots, they would have had 5 more hours where they could've thown some additional series up to see what sticks. It's possible that additional series would have done just as bad as the series they have on the air... but it's also possible that NBC passed on several gems to pick shows like Mercy and Trauma. It's been known to happen before, networks making inexplicable decisions about which pilots to order to series and which ones to pass on.

It's also possible that some of the series that are failing in the 8:00 and 9:00 (ET) hours might have done much better in the 10:00 slot. For example, I doubt whether ER would have made it past the first season if it weren't in the 10:00 slot. Instead, we got 15 seasons worth.

Additionally, some of the series that NBC had to cancel to make room on their schedule for Leno performed better than almost anything they have on the air. If not for Leno, those series would still be peforming well for NBC, instead of sitting on the scrapheap or running and doing quite well for a competing network.

[GadgetFreak]

But then you say... So if Mercy and Trauma were among the best shows NBC had to present, what makes you think that having a few more shows at 10PM would have resulted in better?



In this case NBC has seen the 6 episodes of Southland that have been filmed. They said that they think they are too "dark" or "gritty" for the 9pm hour. So it is not just a matter of having 5 fewer hours, but the fact that the 10pm slot is no longer available. If they had given Leno the 8pm slot then presumably there would be more dramas and fewer sitcoms.


...But back to Day One -- did you guys watch that preview? Looks pretty cool.

[GadgetFreak]

All with the same recurring theme: "Broadcasters are not doing what viewers want."

The "Leno is killing NBC" thread points out that it is not just viewers that are disappointed in the moves by NBC. The local affiliates are pissed -- their local news ratings are suffering.

[pantherman007]

Premature/early cancellations by the networks and DVRs in the hands of consumers are creating the perfect storm - and Leno's taking over the late slot at NBC makes that network a very visible guinea pig. I've stopped watching new dramas, even well-reviewed ones, until I see confirmation that it will survive the network's guillotine. Fringe and Dollhouse are perfect examples - I'm watching seasons 1 now that I know there is a season 2.

But people like me not watching early drops the ratings, which increases the odds on cancellations - the prophecy becomes self-fulfilling.

IMO, the networks need to man up and commit to producing and airing at least 13 episodes of all new series - at least as much as a cable-network season. If I saw that commitment, I'd be able to watch sooner (improving ratings) with less fear of a series getting cutoff of the knees.

For now I'm left with a handful of Southland episodes to join the ranks of Moonlight, What About Brian, and others that I might have subscribed to...

[bicker]

It's possible that ... it's also possible that ... It's been known to happen ... It's also possible that ... I doubt whether ... If not for ... Indeed, I agree. There are a number of different possibilities.

So it is not just a matter of having 5 fewer hours, but the fact that the 10pm slot is no longer available. The 10pm hour is never available for affiliates in the Central Time Zone.

... it is not just viewers that are disappointed in the moves by NBC. The local affiliates are pissed ...How do the investors feel?



...But back to Day One -- It sure would be novel if folks kept discussions within a thread limited to the topic of the thread, rather than trying to make broader assertions. However, in this thread, in the OP itself, believe it or not, a different program was mentioned before the program that is the titular topic of this thread was mentioned.



IMO, the networks need to man up and commit to producing and airing at least 13 episodes of all new series - at least as much as a cable-network season.Why?

No, seriously: Why?

Why is what you suggest better for their owners than their approach?

I think insisting on looking at this strictly from a viewers' perspective just leads to viewer disappointment.

[aadam101]

Well if NBC is looking for ideas I have one. This guy gets into a car accident, but he doesn't have any insurance so the judge sentences him to be my butler. Hilarious stuff right? :)

[appleye1]

The 10pm hour is never available for affiliates in the Central Time Zone.But that doesn't matter because nobody lives in the Central Time Zone. That's just a big empty area that you fly over. ;)

[Peter000]

I was reading about NBC canceling Southland before it started. Looks like they have also reduced Day One from a 13 episode order to a 4 hour miniseries. I hadn't really heard much about this, but am into Sci-Fi and the trailer looks pretty cool.

http://news-briefs.ew.com/2009/10/01/nbcs-day-one-downgraded-to-miniseries-are-networks-scared-of-sci-fi/

Here is the trailer:

http://www.thrfeed.com/2009/07/video-nbc-day-one-trailer.htmlSo, that looks awesome. At least they didn't cancel it outright.

[GadgetFreak]

1) The 10pm hour is never available for affiliates in the Central Time Zone.

2) How do the investors feel?



3) It sure would be novel if folks kept discussions within a thread limited to the topic of the thread, rather than trying to make broader assertions. However, in this thread, in the OP itself, believe it or not, a different program was mentioned before the program that is the titular topic of this thread was mentioned.



1) Didn't think I had to do the 10/9 math for you on that one -- this is a TV forum after all :)

2) They are not happy. There is pressure on GE to spin out NBC

3) Not sure if you are trying to be a troll here, but the news items are related and occurred within a short period of time, but the Southland piece of news received much more media attention. The only way I read about Day One was reading about Southland and NBC's woes in the news. I had never seen the preview and the preview was not posted in the other thread that you referred to.

Much as I love the thread parsing volley, I am even more interested in hearing what other people think about Day One. There is some hope that if the mini-series does well that it will get a pickup.

[bicker]

1) Didn't think I had to do the 10/9 math for you on that one -- this is a TV forum after all :)I'm sorry that you weren't able to understand the point I made. I'll try to express it more simply: Due to the way prime time is arrayed in Central Time, there is no way to take advantage of the ability to present truly edgier programming at "10PM". Therefore, the distinction you made in this regard doesn't have that much merit.

2) They are not happy. There is pressure on GE to spin out NBCThat was the case before there was any thought of putting Leno at 10PM. Since this was your only reply, a logical conclusion is that you cannot name any significant negative impact on investor perception of NBC from this specific decision that we were discussing.

3) Not sure if you are trying to be a troll here, but the news items are related and occurred within a short period of time, but the Southland piece of news received much more media attention. The only way I read about Day One was reading about Southland and NBC's woes in the news. I had never seen the preview and the preview was not posted in the other thread that you referred to.The point was that people seem to have no problem with their own contributions to a thread that take it off on a wild, anti-network tangent, but get upset when someone rebuts their tirade with some balance.

Much as I love the thread parsing volley, I am even more interested in hearing what other people think about Day One.Then why did you post this in this thread:... I think the point here is that scripted drama is suffering as a result of Leno taking up the 10pm slot 5 days a week.If you want a thread devoted to a specific topic, don't contribute yourself to the tangent. Effectively, you trolled your own thread.

There is some hope that if the mini-series does well that it will get a pickup.I think that's a very good approach, these days, given the fickle nature of the American television viewer. And really, for that reason, every new show should be viewed by viewers in that manner: Every new show is a four or five show mini-series, and as with deliberate mini-series that serve as back-door pilots, there is no intent to necessary "end the story" at the end of the mini-series. If you want to see the end of the series (someday), then make sure enough people watch the mini-series (i.e., first few episodes of the series).

And I think that's especially true for any programming where the production costs are higher than average, and even more especially true for any programming that a network purchases rights to (instead of owns the rights to).

[DevdogAZ]

I think that's a very good approach, these days, given the fickle nature of the American television viewer. And really, for that reason, every new show should be viewed by viewers in that manner: Every new show is a four or five show mini-series, and as with deliberate mini-series that serve as back-door pilots, there is no intent to necessary "end the story" at the end of the mini-series. If you want to see the end of the series (someday), then make sure enough people watch the mini-series (i.e., first few episodes of the series).

And I think that's especially true for any programming where the production costs are higher than average, and even more especially true for any programming that a network purchases rights to (instead of owns the rights to).
I don't think it's a good approach at all. Miniseries used to be a big deal. They were appointment television and drew all kinds of viewers. However, they've now turned into a dumping ground, filled with horribly cheesy B movies and failed series re-edited so as not to waste the production costs. Viewers are smart and they know not to watch this stuff. I think it's highly unlikely that in this day and age, a network miniseries could get good enough ratings to launch a series. I suppose it's possible if that's what's planned and it's promoted as such, but since most miniseries are simply 4-6 hour movies, the general viewing public decides that it's an easy one to take a pass on and they don't bother watching.

[GadgetFreak]

I'm sorry that you weren't able to understand the point I made. I'll try to express it more simply: Due to the way prime time is arrayed in Central Time, there is no way to take advantage of the ability to present truly edgier programming at "10PM". Therefore, the distinction you made in this regard doesn't have that much merit.


I did understand your point. I don't think you understood mine. You are on the east coast, I am on the west. When someone is talking about TV programming and mentions the 10pm hour, most people including both you and I understand that means the third hour of prime time -- 10pm for you and I and 9pm for central and mountain. I meant the third hour of prime time -- I believe most people are smart enough to make the interpretation. I suspect you knew what I was talking about but wanted to nitpick. Sorry if you did not.

As to the rest of the point, I do not care if you want to raise other points in this thread and I was not trying to limit the thread to a single subject. As you correctly pointed out, I have included another show in the discussion. I am happy to discuss other topics -- including your earlier point that you will never watch commercials. Totally agree with you and look forward to the day when Tivo or another DVR maker can digitally remove the "bugs: that are taking up more and more of the screen for longer periods of time.

So while I am happy to discuss other topics, I still am interested in what other people think of Day One. What did you think of the preview Bicker?

[whitson77]

I'm sad. I was looking forward to this as a series. Bummer. Sounds like ABC is going to kill V before it begins too.

[bicker]

I suppose it's possible if that's what's planned and it's promoted as such, but since most miniseries are simply 4-6 hour movies, the general viewing public decides that it's an easy one to take a pass on and they don't bother watching.I suggested the approach not as an alternative to mini-series for what they've always been, but rather as a means of viewing regular new series given the manner in which networks view all regular new series. The manner in which the network shall view Day One isn't going to change because viewers want it to change, but viewers can change the manner in which they view Day One.

Just look at whitson77's comment above (which echos the sentiments of some other folks in this thread, vis a vis Day One) ... he's essentially poisoning his own pool with the manner in which he views this increasingly standard approach to new series introductions.

You are on the east coast, I am on the west. When someone is talking about TV programming and mentions the 10pm hour, most people including both you and I understand that means the third hour of prime timeI feel that that is a relatively meaningless distinction, and one for which the implications you would have folks believe are not warranted.

... I do not care if you want to raise other points in this thread and I was not trying to limit the thread to a single subject.Great! Thanks! I'll try to limit my comments to just those I feel contribute something unique to the discussion.

[Fl_Gulfer]

While originally intended to air on NBC midseason in the 2009-2010 TV season with a thirteen-episode first season, it was reported on October 1st 2009 that the episode order had been reduced to four and will air as a mini-series. Should the mini-series perform well, there is a chance it will become a series again for the 2010-2011 TV season

[DevdogAZ]

I'm sad. I was looking forward to this as a series. Bummer. Sounds like ABC is going to kill V before it begins too.
What makes you say that? I FF'd through all kinds of ads for V over the weekend. Networks don't usually promote shows they're trying to kill.

[LoadStar]

I did understand your point. I don't think you understood mine. You are on the east coast, I am on the west. When someone is talking about TV programming and mentions the 10pm hour, most people including both you and I understand that means the third hour of prime time -- 10pm for you and I and 9pm for central and mountain. I meant the third hour of prime time -- I believe most people are smart enough to make the interpretation. I suspect you knew what I was talking about but wanted to nitpick. Sorry if you did not.

What I believe Bicker was referring to, in his infuriatingly roundabout way, are US "safe harbor" laws, which state that "indecent" programming cannot be broadcast before 10:00 p.m., regardless of time zone. Therefore, it is Bicker's contention that the networks cannot program "truly edgy" programming in the 10:00 p.m. ET time slot, because such programs would broadcast at 9:00 Central/Mountain, which places them outside the "safe harbor" window.

That said, I think there can be (and are) "edgy" programs that aren't "indecent" and therefore would still be allowed to be broadcast outside the "safe harbor" window, but are "edgy" enough that it would be more appropriate to broadcast them within the 10:00 ET (9:00 CT/MT) time slots. Shows that feature more graphic depictions of violence, more overt references to sexuality (without actually depicting it), and so on. This 10:00 ET/9:00 CT time slot is totally unavailable to NBC, due to the Leno show, which artificially limits the creative freedom that NBC has.

Could these "edgy" shows run at 8:00 ET or 9:00 ET? Sure they could, but viewers have come to expect that networks will reserve this sort of content for later in the evening due to the content; it doesn't "fit" as well in those earlier slots.

[LoadStar]

What makes you say that? I FF'd through all kinds of ads for V over the weekend. Networks don't usually promote shows they're trying to kill.

I think that is referring to the decision to show 4 episodes in November, then put it completely on hiatus (pull it from air) until March 2010. I think it's been proven time and again that when a series goes away, so do the viewers, and many of them don't return when the series does.

[Rob Helmerichs]

While originally intended to air on NBC midseason in the 2009-2010 TV season with a thirteen-episode first season, it was reported on October 1st 2009 that the episode order had been reduced to four and will air as a mini-series. Should the mini-series perform well, there is a chance it will become a series again for the 2010-2011 TV season

What makes you say that? I FF'd through all kinds of ads for V over the weekend. Networks don't usually promote shows they're trying to kill.
What Gulfer said. Although I don't think the order has been formally reduced; they're just holding back on the back nine, and presumably won't resume production until they see how the first four do.

I don't think they're trying to kill it; I think they're just on the verge of giving it up for dead, before it even airs.

[LoadStar]

What Gulfer said. Although I don't think the order has been formally reduced; they're just holding back on the back nine, and presumably won't resume production until they see how the first four do.

I don't think they're trying to kill it; I think they're just on the verge of giving it up for dead, before it even airs.

Gulfer was referring to Day One, which HAS been chopped down to a 4 episode mini-series.

Devdog and Whitson were talking about V, which remains a 13 episode series, just split into a 4 episode run in November and the rest of the run in March.

[DevdogAZ]

What Gulfer said. Although I don't think the order has been formally reduced; they're just holding back on the back nine, and presumably won't resume production until they see how the first four do.

I don't think they're trying to kill it; I think they're just on the verge of giving it up for dead, before it even airs.

Wait, you're saying that Gulfer's post was talking about V? I assumed his post was talking about Day One.

Ah, glad LoadStar's got it straight.

[Rob Helmerichs]

Gulfer was referring to Day One, which HAS been chopped down to a 4 episode mini-series.

Devdog and Whitson were talking about V, which remains a 13 episode series, just split into a 4 episode run in November and the rest of the run in March.
If that is the case, then Gulfer should have indicated that he was not responding to the post which his followed, which was talking about V.

(When threads drift, they can get ugly...)

[DevdogAZ]

If that is the case, then Gulfer should have indicated that he was not responding to the post which his followed, which was talking about V.

(When threads drift, they can get ugly...)
Given that there was nothing about V in the post directly preceding Gulfer's, I had to assume he was simply talking about the thread's title subject matter.

[GadgetFreak]

What I believe Bicker was referring to, in his infuriatingly roundabout way, are US "safe harbor" laws, which state that "indecent" programming cannot be broadcast before 10:00 p.m., regardless of time zone. Therefore, it is Bicker's contention that the networks cannot program "truly edgy" programming in the 10:00 p.m. ET time slot, because such programs would broadcast at 9:00 Central/Mountain, which places them outside the "safe harbor" window.


Ahhh..I see. I was not aware of that law. Thought he was arguing that people did not understand that the 10pm slot was 9pm in central and mountain. I have never heard of safe harbor television laws. Sorry bicker.

I grew up in Wisconsin -- I prefer the later primetime on the coasts, though I do miss noon Packer games. 10am seems a little early to hit a sports bar (for me anyway).

I don't know if I would call L&O SVU edgy but it certainly deals in mature subject matter. I've read that the move from 10pm pacific to 9pm pacific has hurt their ratings -- it is now in 4th place in it's time slot. Do you think that is just because it has different competition, or do people refuse to watch "mature content" at that hour because their kids are still up?

[DevdogAZ]

I don't know if I would call L&O SVU edgy but it certainly deals in mature subject matter. I've read that the move from 10pm pacific to 9pm pacific has hurt their ratings -- it is now in 4th place in it's time slot. Do you think that is just because it has different competition, or do people refuse to watch "mature content" at that hour because their kids are still up?
I'd guess that it has more to do with the competition, the lead-in, and the general lack of viewership on NBC overall, than it does with the subject matter in the time slot.

[BrandonRe]

What I believe Bicker was referring to, in his infuriatingly roundabout way, are US "safe harbor" laws, which state that "indecent" programming cannot be broadcast before 10:00 p.m., regardless of time zone. Therefore, it is Bicker's contention that the networks cannot program "truly edgy" programming in the 10:00 p.m. ET time slot, because such programs would broadcast at 9:00 Central/Mountain, which places them outside the "safe harbor" window.

That said, I think there can be (and are) "edgy" programs that aren't "indecent" and therefore would still be allowed to be broadcast outside the "safe harbor" window, but are "edgy" enough that it would be more appropriate to broadcast them within the 10:00 ET (9:00 CT/MT) time slots. Shows that feature more graphic depictions of violence, more overt references to sexuality (without actually depicting it), and so on. This 10:00 ET/9:00 CT time slot is totally unavailable to NBC, due to the Leno show, which artificially limits the creative freedom that NBC has.

Could these "edgy" shows run at 8:00 ET or 9:00 ET? Sure they could, but viewers have come to expect that networks will reserve this sort of content for later in the evening due to the content; it doesn't "fit" as well in those earlier slots.

I live in the Central time zone. This season, the various Law and Order franchises have moved from the 9 pm slot to the 8 and even 7 pm slot. they are not the type of programming being described as "edgy" in this thread, but I am shocked that they are playing at 7 pm. There is often content that pushes the envelope for a show being broadcast that early, imo. Maybe I'm just more sensitive these days because we've got 2 little girls. I don't know. but I am pretty sure no major network has broadcast a show as adult as L&O at 7 pm before this season.

[retrodog]

Just another glowing example of "The Leno Effect". I think we can blame him for just about everything.

[whitson77]

waaaaaaaaa

[Rob Helmerichs]

Given that there was nothing about V in the post directly preceding Gulfer's, I had to assume he was simply talking about the thread's title subject matter.
In my world, there was...looking more closely, I see a post number is skipped, which means somebody whom I really don't want to hear from must have been in there. (And thank you, Greasemonkey!)

[refried]

Devdog and Whitson were talking about V, which remains a 13 episode series, just split into a 4 episode run in November and the rest of the run in March.

Ah, the Jericho scenario!

[appleye1]

Cut again. From a 13 episode mid-season replacement to a four episode mini-series and now to a two hour TV movie. Like a TV critic said, NBC is not content with shooting themselves in the foot. They like to shoot themselves in the arm, leg, head, and anywhere else they can.

NBC's 'Day One' reduced again (http://www.hollywoodreporter.com/hr/content_display/television/news/e3i936d3d2c48ddaeb19d550fcea2dbc325)

[Rob Helmerichs]

Cut again. From a 13 episode mid-season replacement to a four episode mini-series and now to a two hour TV movie. Like a TV critic said, NBC is not content with shooting themselves in the foot. They like to shoot themselves in the arm, leg, head, and anywhere else they can.
Although there's always the possibility that it's really, really bad, and NBC is just cutting their losses...

It will be interesting to see how the pilot is (since that's what they're going by, and that's all they're going to show, since that's all that's been made so far).

[WhiskeyTango]

I was really looking forward to this show when it was announced. Does NBC have anything left to air in prime time? Are we going to end up with 3 hours a night of Law and Order? At this rate NBC will become Not Broadcasting Content.

[wmcbrine]

Yeah, you'd think they'd be scrambling to fill the 10pm slot right about now...

[bicker]

Because rushing thing is a good idea. :rolleyes:

[gastrof]

I have a great idea on how NBC can fill the 10pm timeslot.

Since the new post 11:30 schedule may well leave Carson Daly out in the cold, why not have him fill in the final hour each weeknight with witty interviews, commentary, musical guests...

Oh...

Wait...

[tivogurl]

NBC's 'Day One' reduced again (http://www.hollywoodreporter.com/hr/content_display/television/news/e3i936d3d2c48ddaeb19d550fcea2dbc325)
What happened to Xander Berkeley? He was definitely in the cast (http://scifiwire.com/2009/04/xander-berkeley-joins-reg.php) yet this article doesn't list him.