Jay Leno is killing NBC

[cmontyburns]

They are TV critics. There job is to analyze what gets on, not the reasons. They clearly don't know directly what any of the main characters in this drama actually think, they have no direct insights on NBCs business practices. So, absent specific knowledge, they are giving us their personal, not professional opinions of this. They did not review the shows or discuss the shows content. They are giving us their opinions which, in this case, are no more informed that anyone here.

What's your point? I never claimed the piece I linked to was anything other than interesting (to me, at least) analysis. Take it or leave it.

[Lori]

People have short memories. Once jay is back, all will be forgiven. Look at all the hollywood scumbags who are now making movies and no one even remembers what they did.

Not forgotten by everyone.

However, you have a point. People who like Jay will likely still like him. People who hate him, well, that they hate him more can't hurt him. It's not like we can not watch harder or something.

[Turtleboy]

It's like if the local Olive Garden were temporarily shut down because the health department found vermin. After it is reopened, some people won't go there because they remember the vermin and are hesitant to go back. Some will say, "hey, who cares what happened in the past. I loves me some Olive Garden."

Me? Roaches or not, I think the OG is boring, uninteresting, unoffensive, uninspiring, mediocrity. I didn't go before the roaches, and I won't go once it's reopened.

[zalusky]

Lot's of variables coming up:
1) How many that watched Jay on Tonight before regularly will stop watching. The ones that did not like him weren't measured and he was able to make number 1.
2) Will his new set be less sterile than the prime time set?
3) Will NBC be able to get him better guests. He admitted the other networks sort of blackballed him because he was competing in prime time.
4) Will his bits get better than the lame racetrack?
5) The impact of Conan at 11PM. Will he be able to compete head to head with both Jay and Dave beyond the passionate viewership that failed to maintain ratings.

[gossamer88]

I just can't wait to see if Stuttering John will be his "new" announcer.

[smak]

I just can't wait to see if Stuttering John will be his "new" announcer.

I heard that Robin & Fred are looking for L.A. real estate.

-smak-

[JYoung]

Aaron Barnhart is a pretty well-respected critic, actually.


He is?
I'll tell you, I couldn't even make it past point two because:
a) I thought it was so badly written
b) he is twisting everything to extremes to make it "Leno's fault". I don't think he's being objective one bit.


My go-to critic for all of this has been Time's James Poniewozik. Of the Leno visit to Oprah, he writes (http://tunedin.blogs.time.com/2010/01/28/leno-takes-his-case-to-the-oprah-nation):


Poniewozik writes better and seems to be more objective.

[Turtleboy]

Wasn't Poniewozik the one who put Jay Leno on the cover of Time calling him "The Future of TV?"

(Yes, I know Time's editors did).

[marksman]

I heard that Robin & Fred are looking for L.A. real estate.

-smak-

I know this is off topic but this thread seems to be winding down, so does that mean anything specifically? I don't listen to Howard much any more and besides knowing his contract ends in the future I don't know much else. Is there something specific this relates to?

[cmontyburns]

Wasn't Poniewozik the one who put Jay Leno on the cover of Time calling him "The Future of TV?"

(Yes, I know Time's editors did).

He wrote that piece, yes, although of course not the headline (or the cover placement). He avoided conclusions on whether Leno in primetime was a good idea or bad, and whether it would succeed or fail -- only that it would prove incredibly significant.

[IJustLikeTivo]

What's your point? I never claimed the piece I linked to was anything other than interesting (to me, at least) analysis. Take it or leave it.

I'm saying it's not analysis, it's opinion. He has no new information, he's just looking at contemporary reports and the show and giving us his personal, not professional, opinion.

[smak]

I know this is off topic but this thread seems to be winding down, so does that mean anything specifically? I don't listen to Howard much any more and besides knowing his contract ends in the future I don't know much else. Is there something specific this relates to?

It was just a joke about going to the well again to choose a new announcer.

-smak-

[Sandi Shores]

Lot's of variables coming up:
1) How many that watched Jay on Tonight before regularly will stop watching. The ones that did not like him weren't measured and he was able to make number 1.

This was me, I always watched Leno unless Letterman had stupid pet tricks or something cool I wanted to see, but Leno was my default, always.

Now, I see Leno in a new light and I can't stand the sight of him. I just don't want to contribute to his ratings.

I LOVE "headlines" and "jaywalking", but all this nonsense has ruined it for me, I can't find humor in anything related to him anymore because the man just turned out to be a whiney bish that wanted a shiney back that was taken away from him.

I never cared for Conan's humor, my kids have always watched him but not me, but I do respect him as a person and see him as the wronged party in all this.

Conan was never given a fair shake in this, Leno was on at 10 doing a very similar show that was a total failure and was killing the affiliates ratings following his show, maybe if NBC had put a real show in that time slot both the affiliate programming and Conan's show would have done better.

My 2c anyway....

[IJustLikeTivo]

My 2c anyway....

Sounds more like your 2 loonies.

[Sandi Shores]

Sounds more like your 2 loonies.

Took me a minute to figure out wth you were talking about ;)

Reminds me I need to change that info, I'm moving back to California in a couple weeks, I swear I am going to kiss the ground once I pass the border back into the states.

Loonies, twonies.. It's all pretty and colorful monopoly money up here, I miss my dead presidents.

[Langree]

saw the interview, I agree with articles I read that said it might have been better if jay hadn't done it. In some ways he made himself look worse.

[marksman]

saw the interview, I agree with articles I read that said it might have been better if jay hadn't done it. In some ways he made himself look worse.

Yeah I didn't see it, but I don't think he needed to do it. As has been mentioned a lot, most of his audience/fans were not likely upset by anything that happened.

10s of millions of people weighed in with opinions on this whole mater while only a few million actually watched both shows combined.

He would have been better off just proceeding quietly and not trying to explain or defend himself.

[Turtleboy]

saw the interview, I agree with articles I read that said it might have been better if jay hadn't done it. In some ways he made himself look worse.

Did you see Oprah's conversation with her crowd afterwards? Jay's crowd isn't the elderly. They're the people who watch Oprah during the day.

Oprah in the afternoon. Olive Garden for dinner. Then Jay Leno at night. :)

[jsmeeker]

lol

Olive Garden for dinner.

[IJustLikeTivo]

Did you see Oprah's conversation with her crowd afterwards? Jay's crowd isn't the elderly. They're the people who watch Oprah during the day.

Oprah in the afternoon. Olive Garden for dinner. Then Jay Leno at night. :)

TB, always the iconoclast. Hates the #1 talk show, one of the biggest restaurants and the most popular late night host of the last 15 years.

[Langree]

TB, always the iconoclast. Hates the #1 talk show, one of the biggest restaurants and the most popular late night host of the last 15 years.

So you're saying he has good tastes compared to the masses.

[IJustLikeTivo]

So you're saying he has good tastes compared to the masses.

I have no doubt that this would be his interpretation... ;)

[Turtleboy]

TB, always the iconoclast. Hates the #1 talk show, one of the biggest restaurants and the most popular late night host of the last 15 years.

But I don't hate the #1 golfer, who may be the #1 athlete, in the world.

[jsmeeker]

you gotta get over that $100 you (we) dropped to see Jay. It's $100. That was a hand of black jack. :D

[Marco]

But I don't hate the #1 golfer, who may be the #1 athlete, in the world.

"athlete"

that's not how you spell "p***yhound"

[marksman]

Jay Leno is a restaurant?

[DevdogAZ]

I don't disagree with those that think Leno's interview with Oprah might have done more damage than good. But I think that is only because people who dislike Leno have spun the interview and some of Leno's responses to match up with their perceptions of the whole situation. Leno could have given a much better performance than he did on Oprah, but I don't think what he said made him look as bad as it's being made out to be in the press.

[MickeS]

you gotta get over that $100 you (we) dropped to see Jay. It's $100. That was a hand of black jack. :D

TB is the Alfer of the Jay Leno threads. :eek: :D

[MickeS]

I don't disagree with those that think Leno's interview with Oprah might have done more damage than good. But I think that is only because people who dislike Leno have spun the interview and some of Leno's responses to match up with their perceptions of the whole situation. Leno could have given a much better performance than he did on Oprah, but I don't think what he said made him look as bad as it's being made out to be in the press.

I doubt anything he said changed anyone's opinion of him enough to have an impact on his overall viewership.

[smak]

TB, always the iconoclast. Hates the #1 talk show, one of the biggest restaurants and the most popular late night host of the last 15 years.

The movie that made the most money in 2009 was Transformers 2. McDonald's is much bigger than Olive Garden.

Still want to test that theory?

-smak-

[DevdogAZ]

Lot's of variables coming up:
1) How many that watched Jay on Tonight before regularly will stop watching. The ones that did not like him weren't measured and he was able to make number 1.
2) Will his new set be less sterile than the prime time set?
3) Will NBC be able to get him better guests. He admitted the other networks sort of blackballed him because he was competing in prime time.
4) Will his bits get better than the lame racetrack?
5) The impact of Conan at 11PM. Will he be able to compete head to head with both Jay and Dave beyond the passionate viewership that failed to maintain ratings.
I was excited about the racetrack idea when I first read about it last summer. But it turned out to be really stupid. I'm not sure what they could do to fix it (maybe an aerial shot of the car on the course so you could actually see what was going on?) but it definitely didn't work the way it was executed.
I doubt anything he said changed anyone's opinion of him enough to have an impact on his overall viewership.
But that was my point. I don't think he actually said anything like that either. But I've read plenty of TV critic articles spinning what he said to fit in with their disdain for Leno, that I wonder if the interview will have a net negative effect, just based solely on people who never saw it but who read biased accounts of it after the fact.

[IJustLikeTivo]

But I don't hate the #1 golfer, who may be the #1 athlete, in the world.

FWIW, I don't hate him, I just don't like or admire him. Not the same. Close but not quite.

[IJustLikeTivo]

The movie that made the most money in 2009 was Transformers 2. McDonald's is much bigger than Olive Garden.

Still want to test that theory?

-smak-

It was the #1 talk show, not movie. ONE of, not THE biggest restaurants. It's all about reading comprehension. So yes, I'll stick with that.

[JYoung]

The movie that made the most money in 2009 was Transformers 2. McDonald's is much bigger than Olive Garden.

Still want to test that theory?

-smak-

Turtleboy wouldn't be caught dead in McDonalds.

[Turtleboy]

Turtleboy wouldn't be caught dead in McDonalds.

I LOVE McDonalds.

[terpfan1980]

Turtleboy wouldn't be caught dead in McDonalds.

I LOVE McDonalds.

But if you're gonna die you'll drag yourself to Olive Garden first (so they can be blamed for it), right? :p :D

[Langree]

But if you're gonna die you'll drag yourself to Olive Garden first (so they can be blamed for it), right? :p :D

I keep an OG to go bag with me at all times just for this possibility.

[gastrof]

The only thing Leno has that I'd really miss by not watching would be "Headlines".

It's the only thing that got me to watch on Monday nights (or Tuesdays, on the rare occasion it wasn't done on a Monday).

Half the time, I shut him off once HLs is over.

My only concern with Conan getting an 11pm show is that he won't be fully up against Leno, and people might still watch the last half hour of Leno once Conan is over.

Maybe O'Brien will take a page from the older Carson Tonight Show, and go 90 minutes.

[morac]

Does Leno appearing in a Superbowl ad for The Late Show (along with Oprah and Letterman) count as killing NBC? :p

[ElJay]

I think it should have been Conan there instead of Leno. But then Dave couldn't have done his whiny Leno voice. Then again Conan's departure terms probably precluded any such appearance.

[cheesegod]

My only concern with Conan getting an 11pm show is that he won't be fully up against Leno, and people might still watch the last half hour of Leno once Conan is over.

Maybe O'Brien will take a page from the older Carson Tonight Show, and go 90 minutes.

Most likely what would happen is Conan's ratings would drop off after the first 30 minutes as everyone turns to either Letterman or Leno. The only time Conan would beat either of them with that last half an hour is when he a big guest on.

Most people watch late night talk shows for the comedy in the beginning and then turn it off.

[marksman]

It was so amazingly awesome to see leno in a commercial for David Letterman on the super bowl.

Geez NBC sucks so bad. Leno must have really reamed them in the renegotiation.

[dtle]

Why do I get the feeling there's going to be tit-for-tat? As in Letterman will be in a Leno commercial when he comes back to 11:30.

[zalusky]

If you consider the fact that Oprah is ABC affiliated currently in many places. You had all three networks represented.

[Fassade]

This was posted in the Super Bowl Ads thread (http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?p=7765963#post7765963), but the NY Times has the story of the Letterman Super Bowl Spot (http://mediadecoder.blogs.nytimes.com/2010/02/07/how-the-letterman-oprah-leno-super-bowl-ad-came-together/).

Summary:

Letterman's idea
Oprah agreed immediately
Leno agreed, but had to get approval from NBC brass
Zucker gaver permission
They shot it quickly and in secret.

[daveak]

Zucker gaver permission
[/LIST]

I do not think Jeff Zucker has a record of making good decisions for NBC. How have things been going for them?

[DevdogAZ]

This was posted in the Super Bowl Ads thread (http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?p=7765963#post7765963), but the NY Times has the story of the Letterman Super Bowl Spot (http://mediadecoder.blogs.nytimes.com/2010/02/07/how-the-letterman-oprah-leno-super-bowl-ad-came-together/).

Summary:

Letterman's idea
Oprah agreed immediately
Leno agreed, but had to get approval from NBC brass
Zucker gaver permission
They shot it quickly and in secret.

The thing I find most surprising about the whole story is that Leno flew to NYC on the NBC corporate jet. So basically NBC paid a buttload of money in jet fuel in order to help Dave Letterman promote his own show on CBS.

I guess they figured that anything funny involving both Jay and Dave would be good for both shows, and that right now, they'll take any kind of good Leno publicity they can get.

[Rob Helmerichs]

I guess they figured that anything funny involving both Jay and Dave would be good for both shows, and that right now, they'll take any kind of good Leno publicity they can get.
They probably also figured that at this point anything that casts NBC and Leno in a positive light (i.e., having a sense of humor) is a good thing.

[Jesda]

I'm getting my tuxedo pressed for Olive Garden this weekend. I made reservations six months ago and I STILL have to slip the host a benjamin just to get a table, if he's in a good mood.










[OG sucks balls.]

[TiVo'Brien]

The thing I find most surprising about the whole story is that Leno flew to NYC on the NBC corporate jet. So basically NBC paid a buttload of money in jet fuel in order to help Dave Letterman promote his own show on CBS.

I guess they figured that anything funny involving both Jay and Dave would be good for both shows, and that right now, they'll take any kind of good Leno publicity they can get.Me thinks there's a quid pro quo coming next month when Dave appears in some kind of promo spot for Jay's return to The Tonight Show.

[Langree]

Me thinks there's a quid pro quo coming next month when Dave appears in some kind of promo spot for Jay's return to The Tonight Show.

Doubt it, this was a one shot for the Superbowl.

[MickeS]

http://artsbeat.blogs.nytimes.com/2010/02/16/bandleader-kevin-eubanks-will-leave-jay-lenos-tonight-show/

Bandleader Kevin Eubanks Will Leave Jay Leno’s ‘Tonight Show’

The changes keep coming for NBC in late night. The latest: Kevin Eubanks, the longtime bandleader for Jay Leno, is leaving that partnership.

Mr. Eubanks has told colleagues on the show that he will definitely leave his post as leader of what will be a reconstituted “Tonight Show” band (after its brief run as the “Prime Time Band” on Mr. Leno’s 10 p.m. weeknight show) after an interim transition period starting March 1.

Too bad, IMO, I really enjoyed Kev's interaction with Jay. Hopefully he'll change his mind.

[marksman]

Maybe they can hire Cleto of Jimmy Kimmel to take the spot since he did a good laughing impersonation of him.

[DevdogAZ]

No big loss, IMO. There's not shortage of talented, charismatic musicians in LA that would kill to have a daily gig that pays what this job pays.

[JYoung]

Maybe John Melendez can be the new bandleader?

[Langree]

I'm curious as to why the departure, the timing is interesting with everything that has gone on.

[IJustLikeTivo]

http://artsbeat.blogs.nytimes.com/2010/02/16/bandleader-kevin-eubanks-will-leave-jay-lenos-tonight-show/

Bandleader Kevin Eubanks Will Leave Jay Leno’s ‘Tonight Show’



Too bad, IMO, I really enjoyed Kev's interaction with Jay. Hopefully he'll change his mind.

I wonder why?

[DevdogAZ]

If it was a Kevin Eubanks decision, I'm not sure why he'd make that decision now. But if it was a Leno/NBC decision, I think it makes perfect sense. Kevin's been there a long time. The show is getting stale. People complained that there wasn't anything different when the show moved to primetime. So replacing the band leader and changing that dynamic could go a long way to changing people's perceptions that the show is old and stale.

[netringer]

If it was a Kevin Eubanks decision, I'm not sure why he'd make that decision now. But if it was a Leno/NBC decision, I think it makes perfect sense. Kevin's been there a long time. The show is getting stale. People complained that there wasn't anything different when the show moved to primetime. So replacing the band leader and changing that dynamic could go a long way to changing people's perceptions that the show is old and stale.

Changing the host would do a better job of changing perceptions, but the suits at NBC haven't proven to be the sharpest tacks in the box.

[DevdogAZ]

Changing the host would do a better job of changing perceptions, but the suits at NBC haven't proven to be the sharpest tacks in the box.
Well obviously they're not going to do that. They've already tried that and it didn't work. While you (and many others) may not like Leno's brand of safe comedy, he's proven for almost two decades that people do enjoy watching him. For that reason, NBC is willing to pay him tens of millions of dollars per year.

[5thcrewman]

I hope they don't get Max Weinberg for Jay's Tonight Show

[FilmCritic3000]

There are unsubstantiated rumors that Darius Rucker, lead singer of Hootie and the Blowfish, will replace Kevin Eubanks.

[DevdogAZ]

There are unsubstantiated rumors that Darius Rucker, lead singer of Hootie and the Blowfish, will replace Kevin Eubanks.
I guess that country music career isn't working out, eh?

[terpfan1980]

There are unsubstantiated rumors that Darius Rucker, lead singer of Hootie and the Blowfish, will replace Kevin Eubanks.

I guess that country music career isn't working out, eh?

haha. Except, well, he won one of the major awards this past year and is touring through the summer, so it would seem that his country music career is doing just fine.

As to the rest of the rumor, who knows...

[Amnesia]

Touring is supposedly why Kevin wants to leave...

[stiffi]

He needs a band. What Jimmy Fallon (or whomever is producing) did with the Roots is just pure genious. No need for fake chemistry, just bring the whole band!

[MickeS]

There are unsubstantiated rumors that Darius Rucker, lead singer of Hootie and the Blowfish, will replace Kevin Eubanks.

I would be amazed if that happened, since Rucker's own career is in full swing right now. Doesn't make any sense.

[Roadblock]

While you (and many others) may not like Leno's brand of safe comedy, he's proven for almost two decades that people do enjoy watching him.

I hate people.

[marksman]

Touring is supposedly why Kevin wants to leave...

Was the same reason why Conan could not hire Max Weinberg back in 94.

[aintnosin]

Was the same reason why Conan could not hire Max Weinberg back in 94.

Max Weinberg has been with Conan since 1993. At the time, the E Street Band was "on hiatus" until 1999.

[marksman]

Yeah and Max has left the show many times to go touring.

Touring is kind of a lame excuse. I am sure if he wanted to go touring every year he could work it out.

I have heard, by the way, that Kevin Eubanks is a big racist.

I think I heard Adam Carolla talking about it on one of his podcasts with someone else.

[IJustLikeTivo]

Yeah and Max has left the show many times to go touring.

Touring is kind of a lame excuse. I am sure if he wanted to go touring every year he could work it out.

I have heard, by the way, that Kevin Eubanks is a big racist.

I think I heard Adam Carolla talking about it on one of his podcasts with someone else.

"I have heard"? Why say something like that unless you know it personally? Not cool in my book, even if it was/is true.

[DUDE_NJX]

At least one of Conan's band members was open about his racism. :up: ;)

[Turtleboy]

I don't see any conspiracy here. Kevin's had the job for 17 years. He wants to do something else.

[stujac]

Anyone think he might have a reason to be a racist? Not saying that he is but if he is, I understand.

[Langree]

Anyone think he might have a reason to be a racist? Not saying that he is but if he is, I understand.

What possible reason could there be that would excuse being racist?

[stujac]

Ummm. Let me think?? Are you serious with that question? I think not.

[Langree]

Ummm. Let me think?? Are you serious with that question? I think not.

Yes I am, verbalize your reasoning. Don't dodge the question.

[stujac]

This is my opinion and mine only; others may share this opinion but this comes from my 55 years experience living on this earth and in this country. I never, ever question why a black man might be racist; I see examples of racism directed towards black men virtually every day. For instance, I live in a township in which driving while black is apparently illegal. While my township is about 80% white the vehicles you see pulled over the side of the road are driven by about 80% black men. Just sayin..maybe different where you live but I doubt it. Cabs that won't pick up black men; employers who won't hire black men when a white man is available....on and on....If you don't get it, I don't care.

[Langree]

This is my opinion and mine only; others may share this opinion but this comes from my 55 years experience living on this earth and in this country. I never, ever question why a black man might be racist; I see examples of racism directed towards black men virtually every day. For instance, I live in a township in which driving while black is apparently illegal. While my township is about 80% white the vehicles you see pulled over the side of the road are driven by about 80% black men. Just sayin..maybe different where you live but I doubt it. Cabs that won't pick up black men; employers who won't hire black men when a white man is available....on and on....If you don't get it, I don't care.

So black people get a free pass at being racist because of white racist. But of course the white racist is in the wrong.

Umm, ok.

Fight racism with racism! That'll show em!

[getreal]

... the vehicles you see pulled over the side of the road are driven by about 80% black men.

How can you tell if a guy is 80% black?
:D

p.s. that was a joke.

[stujac]

I can but only 80% of the time.

[stujac]

So black people get a free pass at being racist because of white racist. But of course the white racist is in the wrong.

Umm, ok.

Fight racism with racism! That'll show em!

Never said that but you would know that if you read the post. I said I understand why certain people develop racism. I said I see signs of it all the time. I said I never, ever question why a person who suffered from racism becomes racist himself (or herself). Not advocating, just trying to understand.

[Generic]

# Bio I had a show. Then I had a different show. Now I have a Twitter account.


Conan is back....on Twitter.

http://twitter.com/ConanOBrien

[mbklein]

Conan is back....on Twitter.

http://twitter.com/ConanOBrien

Today I interviewed a squirrel in my backyard and then threw to commercial. Somebody help me.
:up:

[DUDE_NJX]

That dude is getting 1000 new followers each minute. Wild.

[marksman]

3 black grandparents and 1 white one gets you to 75%, so I guess if you did enough research you could come up with someone who was 80% black.

:)

[marksman]

"I have heard"? Why say something like that unless you know it personally? Not cool in my book, even if it was/is true.

Because I heard one or more people say it publicly who actually have met the guy multiple times and talked about it.

Why would we say anything about anyone by that standard?

I specifically told you where I thought I heard it. It is not like I made it up, or I heard it from a guy at the quickie mart.

Adam also says Jay Leno is a really nice and genuine guy, but I guess I should not say that either.

[IJustLikeTivo]

Because I heard one or more people say it publicly who actually have met the guy multiple times and talked about it.

Why would we say anything about anyone by that standard?

I specifically told you where I thought I heard it. It is not like I made it up, or I heard it from a guy at the quickie mart.

Adam also says Jay Leno is a really nice and genuine guy, but I guess I should not say that either.

In legal terms it called hearsay and it's not allowed. I heard from a guy who heard from a girl who heard from her girlfriends manicurist.... If YOU experienced it, fine, say it. But something that incendiary should be just accepted as something you hear. That's my way of thinking, you're not bound by it but it usually works pretty well.

[TiVo'Brien]

Conan is back....on Twitter.

http://twitter.com/ConanOBrienLove his bio :p

I had a show. Then I had a different show. Now I have a Twitter account.

[marksman]

In legal terms it called hearsay and it's not allowed.
:eek:

Newspapers and tv news shows and channels are in big trouble.





I heard from a guy who heard from a girl who heard from her girlfriends manicurist.... If YOU experienced it, fine, say it. But something that incendiary should be just accepted as something you hear. That's my way of thinking, you're not bound by it but it usually works pretty well.

I heard it from multiple people who I deem credible... so I am not terribly concerned.

I didn't say he was a racist. I said I heard several people claim he is a racist. That is a fact.

[Doggie Bear]

In legal terms it called hearsay and it's not allowed. I heard from a guy who heard from a girl who heard from her girlfriends manicurist.... If YOU experienced it, fine, say it. But something that incendiary should be just accepted as something you hear. That's my way of thinking, you're not bound by it but it usually works pretty well.
Well, actually, the rules against hearsay are riddled with all kinds of exceptions, so in fact it's not uncommon for hearsay to be admitted in trials.

Also, the American legal system is nearly unique in even having a default rule against hearsay. Most other countries with Western legal systems do not have a general rule against hearsay.

That said, the notion that inflammatory assertions are more reliable if the person can attest to having heard it directly is pretty much good common sense.

[wmcbrine]

:eek:

Newspapers and tv news shows and channels are in big trouble.What he means is that it wouldn't be admissable as evidence in a court of law. Which.. you know... this isn't.

[Langree]

What he means is that it wouldn't be admissable as evidence in a court of law. Which.. you know... this isn't.

I object!

[Wil]

So black people get a free pass at being racist because of white racist. But of course the white racist is in the wrong.Why do you say it's wrong? If white racism is expressed in certain illegal actions, it's the actions that are illegal, not the racism itself*. And white racists may have come to feel uncomfortable in certain politically correct circles today, but white and black racists are completely free to hate all they want.

Personally I generally can't stand people with IQs between 105 and 125 (though some of my best friends are mediocre). So sue me. You can't. Racism and other biases are fine; just not certain actions.

* admittedly, "hate crime" legislation blurs the line, though as far as I know the actions covered would already be illegal in themselves. I don't believe in "hate crime" laws and I think there are constitutional objections that will ultimately prevail.

[gossamer88]

Heads up he's back tonight.

And don't forget to watch CBSs The Early Show. Howard Stern will be on ready to rip Leno a new (another) one!

[IJustLikeTivo]

That said, the notion that inflammatory assertions are more reliable if the person can attest to having heard it directly is pretty much good common sense.

Which was my point. The statement without factual basis is inherently inflammatory. It may, in fact, be absolutely true but why say it unless you're certain that you're correct. It's one thing to say, "he's a nice guy" cause no one is really hurt if you're wrong. But, you can't take back something like "he's a racist" if you're wrong.

This is why the right to free speech does not include the right to call fire in a crowded theater when there is no fire.

[IJustLikeTivo]

Now, back to the original topic.

Did anyone see last night's show. I have it on Tivo but haven't see it yet.

I was wondering if they said anything about the whole controversy.

[Langree]

Now, back to the original topic.

Did anyone see last night's show. I have it on Tivo but haven't see it yet.

I was wondering if they said anything about the whole controversy.

Nope, in fact with one visual gag I think the punchline was intended to be O'Brien, but they made it Leno.

[LoadStar]

I was wondering if they said anything about the whole controversy.

I haven't either, but from what I understand, no. They (Leno/The Tonight Show/NBC) appear to be happy pretending Conan's show never existed... to the point that Leno made a comment about Sarah Palin and her upcoming appearance on The Tonight Show being "the first time in late night." Of course, she appeared on Conan's "Tonight Show."

[Michelle5150]

Of course, she appeared on Conan's "Tonight Show."

I caught that too, but just chalked it up to different definitions of "being on." She wasn't a "guest" on Conan, she just came out to poke fun at Shatner. I assume she'll sit down with Leno.

[gossamer88]

I thought the Wizard of Oz bit was funny. And I like how he has Stuttering John in it but no longer the announcer.

[MickeS]

I haven't either, but from what I understand, no. They (Leno/The Tonight Show/NBC) appear to be happy pretending Conan's show never existed... to the point that Leno made a comment about Sarah Palin and her upcoming appearance on The Tonight Show being "the first time in late night." Of course, she appeared on Conan's "Tonight Show."

She wasn't a scheduled, announced guest though.

[DevdogAZ]

I thought it was pretty good. Basically back to being like his old Tonight Show. I thought the bit about finding the desk was pretty good (doing segments from people's living rooms, with real celeb guests was great). Jamie Foxx was really energetic.

There was one joke where they were talking about someone not really liking Jay (can't remember the joke or who they were talking about) and I thought the obvious punchline would be that he was on Team CoCo. But instead Jay said something like, "I guess he's a Letterman guy." Other than that, nothing in the show made me think about Conan at all.

The set is largely the same as his 10 pm set, with a few cosmetic changes.

[Kamakzie]

She wasn't a scheduled, announced guest though.

When will she be a guest on Letterman? :p

[DevdogAZ]

When will she be a guest on Letterman? :p
Interesting that the two main guests tonight on Leno and Letterman are the two likely front runners for the GOP Presidential Race in 2012. Palin is on Leno and Mitt Romney is on Letterman.

[DancnDude]

Who was band leader? Or is Kevin still around for awhile?

[MickeS]

Who was band leader? Or is Kevin still around for awhile?

Still Kevin.

I like the new set. The show was as it's always been pretty much. I enjoyed it. :)

[Turtleboy]

Howard Stern on the Early Show talking about it.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GMn7Pl3aatU

[dilbert27]

I thought the Wizard of Oz bit was funny. And I like how he has Stuttering John in it but no longer the announcer.

For those that missed it.

http://www.nbc.com/the-tonight-show/video/clips/cold-opening/1205734/

[JYoung]

Howard Stern on the Early Show talking about it.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GMn7Pl3aatU

Howard, as usual, has a flawed analysis of the situation.

Btw, according to the Futon Critic, Leno beat Letterman last night.

http://www.thefutoncritic.com/ratings.aspx?id=monday


In late-night metered market results, NBC's "Leno" (4.2/10) beat out CBS's "Letterman" (3.3/8) and ABC's "Nightline" (3.9/9). Rounding out the night then were "Ferguson" (1.7/6) on CBS, "Kimmel" (2.5/8) on ABC and the premiere of "Fallon" (2.3/8) and "Daly" (1.3/6) on NBC and .


We'll see if he maintains those numbers, I'd expect some drop off.

[Alfer]

Howard, as usual, has a flawed analysis of the situation.

Btw, according to the Futon Critic, Leno beat Letterman last night.

http://www.thefutoncritic.com/ratings.aspx?id=monday



We'll see if he maintains those numbers, I'd expect some drop off.

Of course he's gonna beat out the competition on night number 1...everyone wants to see how he deals with the change and what he has to say and if the show is a train wreck like his prime time show....sort of like how people slow down to look at a wreck on the side of the road...they can't help but look for a few seconds.

My guess is they leave in droves and Letterman ends up beating him more often.

[Turtleboy]

Howard, as usual, has a flawed analysis of the situation.

What do you disagree with?

[Kamakzie]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uxcAAb60lik&feature=related

Stern warning Conan in December '06

[JYoung]

What do you disagree with?

Leno forcing Carson and O'Brien out.
On how Leno should have just quit.
Leno fired from NBC.

Basically everything that was already argued previously in this thread.

[DevdogAZ]

Clearly Stern hates Leno and his bias will color his opinions.

Adam Carolla has a mature outlook on the whole concept of "stealing jokes." He frequently talks about how there is some comedy that, based on the situation, the subject, the sense of humor of the comedian, etc., can be originated simultaneously by multiple people. The types of jokes they do on these late-night monologues are the very easiest, most obvious kind of comedy. It's inevitable that someone in NY and someone in LA, when reading about the same event in the newspaper, may come up with nearly identical jokes.

[aindik]

Clearly Stern hates Leno and his bias will color his opinions.

Adam Carolla has a mature outlook on the whole concept of "stealing jokes." He frequently talks about how there is some comedy that, based on the situation, the subject, the sense of humor of the comedian, etc., can be originated simultaneously by multiple people. The types of jokes they do on these late-night monologues are the very easiest, most obvious kind of comedy. It's inevitable that someone in NY and someone in LA, when reading about the same event in the newspaper, may come up with nearly identical jokes.

Stern didn't say Leno stole Stern's jokes. He said Leno stole entire bits. Then again, Stern thinks everything anyone has done in broadcasting was stolen from him.

(Also, Leno "stole" a member of Stern's staff, though that's not something Stern mentioned on the Early Show).

[MickeS]

Why is Stern talking about this (or rather, why would we want to hear him talk about it)? Does he have some connection to the whole mess?

[Turtleboy]

Why is Stern talking about this (or rather, why would we want to hear him talk about it)? Does he have some connection to the whole mess?

Because CBS wanted to have a big name come on to bash Leno and defend Letterman.

Is it true that NBC Today Show chose this morning to run a story on Letterman's affairs?

[IJustLikeTivo]

Stern didn't say Leno stole Stern's jokes. He said Leno stole entire bits. Then again, Stern thinks everything anyone has done in broadcasting was stolen from him.

(Also, Leno "stole" a member of Stern's staff, though that's not something Stern mentioned on the Early Show).

Fortunately no one stole his Air Florida bit.... Bitter man, that Stern. Not sure if there is enough money to make him happy.

[IJustLikeTivo]

Why is Stern talking about this (or rather, why would we want to hear him talk about it)? Does he have some connection to the whole mess?

As the center of the Media universe, he thinks it all rotates around him.

[Turtleboy]

Fortunately no one stole his Air Florida bit.... Bitter man, that Stern. Not sure if there is enough money to make him happy.

Seriously?

Sometimes I really can't tell if you are being serious or if you're just Alfering. I listen to Howard every day. You really believe that he is bitter?

Over what, exactly?

[Magnolia88]

Why is Stern talking about this (or rather, why would we want to hear him talk about it)? Does he have some connection to the whole mess?

He really hates Jay Leno, and likes to talk about how much he hates Jay Leno.

He's been saying that for years, long before this latest Leno story. This just gives him more to talk about, when he talks about how much he hates Jay Leno.

[gossamer88]

Exactly, he's been trashing Leno for a long time now. CBS was just using Stern to trash him some more.

[JLucPicard]

Btw, according to the Futon Critic, Leno beat Letterman last night.

http://www.thefutoncritic.com/ratings.aspx?id=monday
By the way, at the top of that linked page it reads
PLEASE DO NOT COPY OR REPRODUCE THIS INFORMATION TO OTHER WEB SITES, FORUMS, NEWSGROUPS, ETC.

As to the ratings, Letterman also got beat by Nightline??? I never even hear anything about that show anymore.

Also, what is meant by 'premiere of "Fallon"'? Hasn't that been on for quite some time now?

[super dave]

Really, Howard has been trashing Jay? I listen every morning and haven't heard a peep about this............




:)

[DevdogAZ]

As to the ratings, Letterman also got beat by Nightline??? I never even hear anything about that show anymore.

Also, what is meant by 'premiere of "Fallon"'? Hasn't that been on for quite some time now?
Ever since Leno left last May, and Conan's initial numbers dropped off a cliff, Nightline's ratings have been surprisingly competitive with the other late-night programs.

As for the "premiere of Fallon," you're reading from the section of the page that is discussing the ratings from one year ago. Last night was Fallon's one-year anniversary.

Edit: And now that I look at that page, I see that the numbers JYoung posted above were also from one year ago. Last night's numbers (http://tvbythenumbers.com/2010/03/02/leno-crushes-letterman-in-return/43507) were actually much better for Leno and much worse for Letterman:

In the metered market houshold ratings between 11:30p-12:30a Jay Leno’s return to The Tonight Show dominated Leterman and Late Show. Leno had a 5.4/14 (household rating/share) to Letterman’s 3.0/8.

“The Tonight Show with Jay Leno” (1.6 rating in adults 18-49) led the time period over CBS’s “Late Show with David Letterman” (1.1) and ABC’s “Nightline (1.3) in fast national “live plus same day” ratings from Nielsen Media Research.

In total viewers in the fast nationals, “The Tonight Show with Jay Leno” (6.6 million) ranked #1 among the major networks in the time period over ”Late Show” (3.8 million) and “Nightline” (4.1 million).

[JYoung]

Edit: And now that I look at that page, I see that the numbers JYoung posted above were also from one year ago. Last night's numbers (http://tvbythenumbers.com/2010/03/02/leno-crushes-letterman-in-return/43507) were actually much better for Leno and much worse for Letterman:

Crap, I was just skimming that page for the Chuck ratings and I saw "Late Night" at the bottom and jumped down there for the Tonight Show ratings without seeing the last year blurb.

[IJustLikeTivo]

Seriously?

Sometimes I really can't tell if you are being serious or if you're just Alfering. I listen to Howard every day. You really believe that he is bitter?

Over what, exactly?

He spews hate. That sounds bitter to me. If he hated coco would that make you agree? As for the alfer comment don't be stupid. That's nothing like the same thing. But you love to stir things up nearly as much so why would I be surprised.

[Fofer]

That sounds bitter to me.

Pot, meet kettle :D

[SteveInNC]

Anyone noticed how the band is now a lot smaller? The key recognizable people are still there (Smitty, etc.), but it seems that a lot of them are gone. Wasn't the horn section much bigger in the previous incarnation?

FYI, Leno will be on next week's edition of Top Gear too (BBCA). Since we get these long after their original BBC airing, I assume that this was filmed before the recent unpleasantness.

[IJustLikeTivo]

Pot, meet kettle :D

You really shouldn't talk. Compared to you I'm Mary Poppins and Little Miss Sunshine rolled into one.

[JLucPicard]

As for the "premiere of Fallon," you're reading from the section of the page that is discussing the ratings from one year ago. Last night was Fallon's one-year anniversary.
You're right. When I saw "premiere of Fallan" last night, I scrolled up to the top of the page to see the dateline (or whatever that's called) and saw March 1, 2010. Skipped right past the midsection partition that points to 'a year ago'. :o

[Fofer]

You really shouldn't talk. Compared to you I'm Mary Poppins and Little Miss Sunshine rolled into one.

LOL - yeah, because that's exactly how people who know me describe me... "bitter." Uh huh, yeah, that's it. :D

[JYoung]

Because CBS wanted to have a big name come on to bash Leno and defend Letterman.

Is it true that NBC Today Show chose this morning to run a story on Letterman's affairs?

I have no idea what the Today Show did but what CBS did with the Early Show left a bit of a bad taste in my mouth.

Stern was brought on specifically to bash Leno and to give them "plausible deniability" but really, how would they not know what Stern would say about Leno?

[ElJay]

Alright, the clock is ticking. Nine months to go for Jay "#1" Leno.

Letterman ends Leno’s brief winning streak
Monday’s ‘Late Show’ takes coveted 18-49 and 25-54 demographic groups

Monday's "Late Show with David Letterman" beat "The Tonight Show with Jay Leno" in adults 18-49 and adults 25-54, the demographic groups that matter most to advertisers. That's according to preliminary fast national Nielsen data just released.

Leno still eked out a win in total viewers, drawing 4.36 million vs. Letterman's 4.19 million.
...
But Monday, NBC's primetime average took a big hit, with "Trauma" tanking and "Law & Order" slipping below Leno Monday averages. The lower lead-in resulted in the Leno loss.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/35789739/ns/entertainment-television/

So the lead-in matters? That's a new idea.

[marksman]

I suspect Howard has always been bitter about Late Night hosts in general since he certainly has always felt that he would do a better job than any of them and destroy the world if only the right people would listen to him and let him do whatever he wanted.

I don't agree with his assessment of himself although I have enjoyed him over the years.. but I think it would be fair to perceive that Howard Stern might be bitter towards Late Night TV hosts in general.

[Turtleboy]

Stern was brought on specifically to bash Leno and to give them "plausible deniability" but really, how would they not know what Stern would say about Leno?

Oh, I agree 100% and I don't think anyone has claimed otherwise. Howard was talking about it a week in advance about that's what they were asking him to do.

It was actually very interesting to me listening to the show on that day, and hearing the CBS grew coming into the studio and setting up and then the post-mortem.

What's even more interesting is how Howard changes his persona when he's being interviewed, whether by CBS News or Letterman or Conan. He doesn't really act like that when he's on the air on his own show. I think that's because on his show, he has 4-5 hours every day to say what he wants to say, so he'll take his time. But in the CBS segment, he has to cram 3 hours into 3 minutes and goes nuts.

Strangely, it gives people a mistaken impression of what his show is like.

[Kablemodem]

I suspect Howard has always been bitter about Late Night hosts in general since he certainly has always felt that he would do a better job than any of them and destroy the world if only the right people would listen to him and let him do whatever he wanted.

I don't agree with his assessment of himself although I have enjoyed him over the years.. but I think it would be fair to perceive that Howard Stern might be bitter towards Late Night TV hosts in general.

Howard Stern loves David Letterman. He hates Jay Leno because he feels Jay has stolen lots of his material and ideas, is not innovative, and is not funny.

[TriBruin]

Howard Stern loves David Letterman. He hates Jay Leno because he feels Jay has stolen lots of his material and ideas, is not innovative, and is not funny.

Conincidently I feel the same way about Howard. :D

[JYoung]

Howard Stern loves David Letterman. He hates Jay Leno because he feels Jay has stolen lots of his material and ideas, is not innovative, and is not funny.

so you're saying that Howard = Turtleboy?

[pigonthewing]

so you're saying that Howard = Turtleboy?

Yes. Any two people who agree, even if only about one thing, are entirely synonymous and, in fact, downright interchangeable.

[JYoung]

Yes. Any two people who agree, even if only about one thing, are entirely synonymous and, in fact, downright interchangeable.

Just like every post I make is absolutely serious.

[Fofer]

Well, they are both Jewish and opinionated. It's their height that separates them, I'd say.

[Langree]

Well, they are both Jewish and opinionated. It's their height that separates them, I'd say.

and the hair, TB would look really odd with hair like Howard's.

[brianric]

Conincidently I feel the same way about Howard. :D

Ditto

[inaka]

He really hates Jay Leno, and likes to talk about how much he hates Jay Leno.

He's been saying that for years, long before this latest Leno story. This just gives him more to talk about, when he talks about how much he hates Jay Leno.

Exactly, he's been trashing Leno for a long time now. CBS was just using Stern to trash him some more.

You guys speak about this as if it's a bad thing. :D

[Magnolia88]

You guys speak about this as if it's a bad thing. :D

Hah. I love it when Howard comes on Letterman and then basically says, "Let me talk about how much I hate Jay Leno." I think it's hilarious. Dave shakes his head and pretends to look sheepish, but he lets Howard go off on Leno and doesn't disagree. At some point, he might say "now, Howard . . ." but that's about it.

I've watched a little of Jay since his return because I tivo when I like the guests, but man, he has not improved one iota in his interviewing skills. He is so appallingly bad that it's nearly unwatchable imho. He just doesn't seem to listen to the guest at all, and just goes for the cheap joke, at the guest's expense, every time. He insults them, belittles them, and then giggles as if his little dig is sooo funny, while they look embarrassed and smile/grimace uncomfortably. Man, I really cannot stand him, at least as an interviewer. His interview with Lindsey Vonn was downright offensive, making a sleazy "joke" by asking her if her husband was her "coach" in the bedroom. :rolleyes:

[marksman]

Howard Stern loves David Letterman. He hates Jay Leno because he feels Jay has stolen lots of his material and ideas, is not innovative, and is not funny.

He loves letterman but he still resents him.

[inaka]

Tickets went on sale this morning for the Conan tour:
http://teamcoco.com/

I got tix for the Friday 4/23 show in SF.
Should be fun. :up:

[aindik]

Tickets went on sale this morning for the Conan tour:
http://teamcoco.com/

I got tix for the Friday 4/23 show in SF.
Should be fun. :up:

$125 for seats in Atlantic City. Sheesh.

[inaka]

$125 for seats in Atlantic City. Sheesh.

Well it *is* at the Borgata.

Cheap seats are only $39.50 in SF.

[pigonthewing]

...only $39.50...

Same here, but then ticketmaster wants their f'n $10, which is just ridiculous.

[JYoung]

Tickets went on sale this morning for the Conan tour:
http://teamcoco.com/

I got tix for the Friday 4/23 show in SF.
Should be fun. :up:


April 24: Gibson Amphitheater in Universal City, Calif.


That's gotta smart.

[DevdogAZ]

That's gotta smart.
I know the Gibson Amphitheater is on the Universal property, but how close is it to Stage One where Conan shot his show? (Or in other words, where is Stage One on the Universal lot? My Google skills are failing me.)

[Kablemodem]

I know the Gibson Amphitheater is on the Universal property, but how close is it to Stage One where Conan shot his show? (Or in other words, where is Stage One on the Universal lot? My Google skills are failing me.)

It's nowhere near San Francisco.

[DevdogAZ]

It's nowhere near San Francisco.
Ummmmm, OK. Thanks.

[JYoung]

I know the Gibson Amphitheater is on the Universal property, but how close is it to Stage One where Conan shot his show? (Or in other words, where is Stage One on the Universal lot? My Google skills are failing me.)

I'm not exactly sure but I thiiiiiiiiiinnnnkkkkk it was on the bottom of the hill or near it.
Gibson Amphitheater is on the top of the hill and he'd probably have to go past his old studio to get there.

[DevdogAZ]

I'm not exactly sure but I thiiiiiiiiiinnnnkkkkk it was on the bottom of the hill or near it.
Gibson Amphitheater is on the top of the hill and he'd probably have to go past his old studio to get there.
I would have thought there would be all kinds of Panaramio pictures on Google Earth, but I couldn't find any.

I remember seeing a time-lapse video of the construction of the new studio building once, but can't find that either.

[JYoung]

I would have thought there would be all kinds of Panaramio pictures on Google Earth, but I couldn't find any.

I remember seeing a time-lapse video of the construction of the new studio building once, but can't find that either.

I don't know.
I haven't been over to Universal for a couple of years but I'm pretty sure that the studio would be in an area they don't allow the riff raff to go to.
Away from Citywalk, the Gibson, the Tour, and the hotel


Although come to think of it, has O'Brien actually done any stand up before?
I want to say no.....

[smak]

While he probably could get there by going past his old studio, I think it'd be a lot easier to just go up the hill to get backstage at Gibson.

-smak-

[trainman]

Although come to think of it, has O'Brien actually done any stand up before?
I want to say no.....

Just his monologues. Before he became the host of "Late Night," his background was primarily in writing, but he'd had some improv performance classes with The Groundlings, and had gotten to do a little bit of acting in sketches on "SNL."

[JYoung]

Just his monologues. Before he became the host of "Late Night," his background was primarily in writing, but he'd had some improv performance classes with The Groundlings, and had gotten to do a little bit of acting in sketches on "SNL."

Ok, yeah. Now I remember.
When O'Brien first took over for Letterman and had that rocky beginning, I remember that some of the criticism of him was that he really didn't have any experience performing in front of an audience. That he was primarily a writer.

Supporters would point out that he was in the Groundlings (with Lisa Kudrow?).

[DevdogAZ]

I don't know.
I haven't been over to Universal for a couple of years but I'm pretty sure that the studio would be in an area they don't allow the riff raff to go to.
Away from Citywalk, the Gibson, the Tour, and the hotel
Well I don't think you could just wander around down there, but given that he had live audiences every day, who clearly had to wait in line outside the studio, and the fact that the studio tram tour revised its route to go right past the studio, you'd think there would at least be Panoramio pictures on Google Earth pegging the general location.

[ewolfr]

http://www.latimes.com/entertainment/news/la-et-conan17-2010mar17,0,540516.story

Fox discusses deal with Conan O'Brien
The network may have a viable plan to bring the comedian back to late night, sources say.

and the not-so-surprising part that money can cure just about any ill in the business world:

O'Brien's team also is working to secure a soundstage for a new show and could use the same facility on the Universal lot that NBC spent nearly $50 million to refurbish for O'Brien to take over "The Tonight Show" in June. The soundstage -- the home of the Jack Benny show -- is large enough to accommodate skits, a band and a studio audience -- and is close to Lankershim Boulevard, making it easy to manage crowds who come to the show.

NBC Universal has said it would lease the space to O'Brien, despite the tensions that exploded when O'Brien refused to accept NBC's shift of the "Tonight Show" to make room for Leno's return to late night.

[marksman]

That would be really funny if he is back in the same space but on Fox. WTH.

[DevdogAZ]

Wait a second, I thought they built a brand new studio for Conan. I remember seeing a video of time-lapse photos of the construction, from raw dirt to completion. I've read many stories about the new construction. So what's this about "refurbish" and Jack Benny?

[IJustLikeTivo]

That would be really funny if he is back in the same space but on Fox. WTH.

Would this mean that Fox doesn't have to burn in hell now?

Back to the present. How have Jay's ratings been since he came back?

[TiVo'Brien]

http://www.latimes.com/entertainment/news/la-et-conan17-2010mar17,0,540516.story

Fox discusses deal with Conan O'Brien
The network may have a viable plan to bring the comedian back to late night, sources say.

and the not-so-surprising part that money can cure just about any ill in the business world:This makes sense from a business perspective for everyone involved.

[terpfan1980]

Would this mean that Fox doesn't have to burn in hell now?

Back to the present. How have Jay's ratings been since he came back?

Started strong but losing ground as time has progressed. He was beating Letterman easily in the first few days, but was tied with him about a week in from what I had seen, with more importance now on who his guests are, or who the competitions guests are.

[IJustLikeTivo]

Started strong but losing ground as time has progressed. He was beating Letterman easily in the first few days, but was tied with him about a week in from what I had seen, with more importance now on who his guests are, or who the competitions guests are.

That would still be a large improvement from the previous 6 months, no?

[inaka]

That would still be a large improvement from the previous 6 months, no?
I guess just one viewer is an improvement over being cancelled if you want to look at it that way.

[ewolfr]

Andy Richter was co-host on Live with Regis and Kelly while Regis was out on vacation last week. He had quite a bit to say during the host chat, he must not be under an NDA like Conan is until September. If you want to see it go here: http://bventertainment.go.com/tv/buenavista/regisandkelly/host_chat.html and then scroll down and click on March 9.

[aindik]

Andy Richter was co-host on Live with Regis and Kelly while Regis was out on vacation last week. He had quite a bit to say during the host chat, he must not be under an NDA like Conan is until September. If you want to see it go here: http://bventertainment.go.com/tv/buenavista/regisandkelly/host_chat.html and then scroll down and click on March 9.

He must also not be under a non-compete.

[aintnosin]

He must also not be under a non-compete.
Morning shows are not considered competition to late night shows.

[JYoung]

Started strong but losing ground as time has progressed. He was beating Letterman easily in the first few days, but was tied with him about a week in from what I had seen, with more importance now on who his guests are, or who the competitions guests are.

Not quite.
Last week, Leno won three of the nights, Letterman won one (the day his blackmailer was in court), and they tied one night, according to TV By The Numbers.
And Leno won on Monday and Tuesday of this week as well.
(I don't remember who was on Leno Monday but Letterman had Jennifer Anniston on Monday, plugging her new movie.)

What does surprise me is that Nightline is right in there for the most part, being a very competitive third.

That would still be a large improvement from the previous 6 months, no?

http://tvbythenumbers.com/2010/03/17/leno-wins-again-in-tuesday-preliminary-numbers/45301

Look at comment #3.
IIRC, O'Brien was getting about 2 to 2.1 million viewers in August of 2009.
The blogger is projecting about 4.3 million households.

[aindik]

Morning shows are not considered competition to late night shows.

Why would one think his non-compete would be limited to things that compete against late night shows? I'd expect it to encompass the full scope of things that compete against NBC.

Do you think Conan O'Brien could take over a seat on the View before September and not get sued? I'd bet against it.

[DevdogAZ]

I remember reading that Andy wasn't covered under the blanket deal that Conan negotiated for his staff, and that Andy had to negotiate his own severance deal. Given the fact that he's not the same caliber of star that Conan is and that he surely didn't get mega-millions to walk away, he probably doesn't have the same restrictions.

[JYoung]

Andy Richter was co-host on Live with Regis and Kelly while Regis was out on vacation last week. He had quite a bit to say during the host chat, he must not be under an NDA like Conan is until September. If you want to see it go here: http://bventertainment.go.com/tv/buenavista/regisandkelly/host_chat.html and then scroll down and click on March 9.

I see that Richter has selective memory recall.
Quite honestly, I expected better from him.

[Fofer]

How so?

[MickeS]

How so?

For example, the complete fabrication that Conan's ratings were "pretty good" over the summer and then took a dive in the fall when Jay's show started.

[IJustLikeTivo]

I see that Richter has selective memory recall.
Quite honestly, I expected better from him.

Partisan for sure but it's his view, how could it be otherwise?

[JYoung]

For example, the complete fabrication that Conan's ratings were "pretty good" over the summer and then took a dive in the fall when Jay's show started.

Partisan for sure but it's his view, how could it be otherwise?

See above. Saying that their ratings were "pretty good" until Leno's isn't just partisan, it's a lie.

There were other things too that Richter said that I thought were blame deflection.

I don't expect Richter to come out and say "We were making a show that America didn't want to to watch", but he could have been classier about it.

[Roadblock]

See above. Saying that their ratings were "pretty good" until Leno's isn't just partisan, it's a lie.

There were other things too that Richter said that I thought were blame deflection.

I don't expect Richter to come out and say "We were making a show that America didn't want to to watch", but he could have been classier about it.

"Pretty good" is a subjective phrase. At least he's not a thief.

[MickeS]

"Pretty good" is a subjective phrase.

Not really, but even if we can pretend that, claiming that the decline happened when Leno's prime time show started is NOT subjective. Conan's ratings were consistently lower than Jay's at the same time period the year before.

[modnar]

Andy Richter was co-host on Live with Regis and Kelly while Regis was out on vacation last week. He had quite a bit to say during the host chat, he must not be under an NDA like Conan is until September. If you want to see it go here: http://bventertainment.go.com/tv/buenavista/regisandkelly/host_chat.html and then scroll down and click on March 9.
Here's a direct link:
http://bventertainment.go.com/tv/buenavista/regisandkelly/host_chat.html?bcpid=60485602001&bclid=51729771001&bctid=71013658001

[IJustLikeTivo]

See above. Saying that their ratings were "pretty good" until Leno's isn't just partisan, it's a lie.

There were other things too that Richter said that I thought were blame deflection.

I don't expect Richter to come out and say "We were making a show that America didn't want to to watch", but he could have been classier about it.

I dislike saying he lied. I think he believes that. My guess is that like most on air talent he has very little knowledge of the day to day issues like that.

[Roadblock]

Conan's ratings were consistently lower than Jay's at the same time period the year before.

And how is that not to be expected? It's a new host. Surely you are aware that Jay's numbers were a big drop from Carson's at first?

Jay's primetime show numbers were great though huh? Do you really think Jay's terrible primetime show had no effect on Conan's numbers?

[Andrew_S]

Despite all this discussion, Jay's still not funny. Right?

[Fofer]

Right.

[IndyJones1023]

Not that I've seen.

[JYoung]

And how is that not to be expected? It's a new host. Surely you are aware that Jay's numbers were a big drop from Carson's at first?

Jay's primetime show numbers were great though huh? Do you really think Jay's terrible primetime show had no effect on Conan's numbers?

You know that this has already been hashed out ad nauseum previously in this thread.

[DavidTigerFan]

lol....

[marksman]

So I heard a rumor that NBC is considering picking up 24?

Is this Jay Leno's fault?

[MickeS]

So I heard a rumor that NBC is considering picking up 24?

Is this Jay Leno's fault?
I think that depends on whether it will kill NBC or not.

[Nonyaz]

Leno seems to be trying way to hard the last few shows especially the 3/24 one, most of his monologue jokes bombed and the Toyota skit was cringe worthy. If he keeps this up, the slow but steady letterman will overcome him. Not that it will matter, NBC will keep him on regardless, just interesting to see him get flustered trying to keep his lead.

[IJustLikeTivo]

Leno seems to be trying way to hard the last few shows especially the 3/24 one, most of his monologue jokes bombed and the Toyota skit was cringe worthy. If he keeps this up, the slow but steady letterman will overcome him. Not that it will matter, NBC will keep him on regardless, just interesting to see him get flustered trying to keep his lead.

They all have good and bad days. Even JC had some gigantic bombs otherwise the whole tea for two dance would never have happened.

Letterman has his fair share of gags that fall flat as a pancake too.

It will take time for it to shake out. Jay may never completely recover his audience. Some moved on when Coco was on, and won't come back. Give it a few months and we'll figure out what the core ratings really are.

[Roadblock]

Slash from Guns & Roses was on the Tonight Show last night and wore an I'm with Coco pin:

http://thegamerzzone.com/2010/04/07/slash-wears-im-with-coco-pin-during-tonight-show-performance/

[morac]

According to an article over at the Examiner (http://www.examiner.com/x-15166-Comedy-Examiner~y2010m4d23-Team-Coco-News-Jay-Lenos-ratings-fall-below-Conans-on-The-Tonight-Show-great-job-NBC), Leno's Tonight Show ratings have dropped below what Conan's were. The article state he's actually losing to repeats of Letterman now.

[WhiskeyTango]

I think it's just NBC is killing NBC. They lost $223 million on the Olympics and they consider that a win because they expected to lose $250 million.

[stujac]

No, I think it's just Dave whipping his butt.

[MickeS]

According to an article over at the Examiner (http://www.examiner.com/x-15166-Comedy-Examiner~y2010m4d23-Team-Coco-News-Jay-Lenos-ratings-fall-below-Conans-on-The-Tonight-Show-great-job-NBC), Leno's Tonight Show ratings have dropped below what Conan's were. The article state he's actually losing to repeats of Letterman now.
That's a rather selective reading of the numbers... Leno is #1 in all demos and has the highest overall number of viewers on average. There were a few nights where he lost in the important 18-49 demographic. But to say that his ratings "fall below Conan's" is simply not true overall. However, Jay has IIRC raised the average viewer age quite a bit. Conan drew the younger demo very well, but not much else.

[JYoung]

That's a rather selective reading of the numbers... Leno is #1 in all demos and has the highest overall number of viewers on average. There were a few nights where he lost in the important 18-49 demographic. But to say that his ratings "fall below Conan's" is simply not true overall. However, Jay has IIRC raised the average viewer age quite a bit. Conan drew the younger demo very well, but not much else.

The author's bias is pretty obvious in that blog as well.
TV By the Numbers has some better charts for comparison.
http://tvbythenumbers.com/2010/04/22/jay-lenos-tonight-showdips-beats-letterman-repeats/49436

http://tvbythenumbers.com/2010/04/22/leno-following-conans-tonight-show-ratings-trajectory/49502

Leno has lost ground and is barely doing better than O'Brien did.
The interesting thing to me though was this.

Looking at the ratings trend, I realized that the problem for O'Brien wasn't so much Leno as it was Letterman.

For the first three months O'Brien's ratings slid to low but ok (or "pretty good" as Andy Richter says) ratings but he was beating Letterman consistently. Letterman was duking it out with Nightline and occasionally getting beat by Nightline.

Then when the blackmail scandal hit, Letterman's numbers jumped, vaulting him past O'Brien.
And enough of those viewers were now staying with Letterman to the point where O'Brien's numbers were sliding lower and loosing to Letterman more often than not.

And that's when NBC panicked.

Leno's definitely taken a ratings hit by all of this and I'm doubtful that he'll ever recover.

But if he beats Letterman and Nightline consistently enough, NBC will probably stand by him.

[ElJay]

According to an article over at the Examiner (http://www.examiner.com/x-15166-Comedy-Examiner~y2010m4d23-Team-Coco-News-Jay-Lenos-ratings-fall-below-Conans-on-The-Tonight-Show-great-job-NBC), Leno's Tonight Show ratings have dropped below what Conan's were. The article state he's actually losing to repeats of Letterman now.

I don't think Leno's ratings matter much anymore. As we know, the problem with Leno at 10pm was the affiliates revolting that they had no lead-in to their news. I assume what the affiliates earn from local ad sales during The Tonight Show is a piddling compared to the 11pm news revenue. I think Leno is going to have the show now for as long as he wants it, though it's looking like he may lose the bragging rights of being a dominant #1 that his ego seems to cherish so much.

[MickeS]

Agreed. The problem was never really Conan's ratings. Even though they were lower than Jay's I think they would have been fine... if NBC hadn't been waffling so much over the whole thing.

[terpfan1980]

... Looking at the ratings trend, I realized that the problem for O'Brien wasn't so much Leno as it was Letterman.

... Then when the blackmail scandal hit, Letterman's numbers jumped, vaulting him past O'Brien... And enough of those viewers were now staying with Letterman to the point where O'Brien's numbers were sliding lower and loosing to Letterman more often than not.

Interesting point and probably a great catch. It's impossible to know if Conan would have done ok if NBC hadn't put Leno in that 10pm slot, but certainly having your prime competition drum up an audience thanks to a big scandal didn't help him.

If Letterman continues to hold back Leno it's probably well deserved no matter how creepy some may find Letterman. If it hadn't been for someone else with a very notorious scandal appearing on Leno's show way back when, he probably never would have gotten the audience that he did. So, perhaps it's all a big bit of karma.

[marksman]

I didn't know Conan was actually beating Letterman in 18-49 before Leno's primetime show came on.

Jesus NBC....

The biggest issue is people are creatures of habit. NBC has messed around with this stuff so much in a short period of time that they kicked out all kinds of watchers who were doing so out of habit and gave them enough time to come up with a new habit.

Who knows where or why...

Like Khonani told Jack, sometimes you got to make the tough decision.

[JYoung]

I don't think Leno's ratings matter much anymore. As we know, the problem with Leno at 10pm was the affiliates revolting that they had no lead-in to their news. I assume what the affiliates earn from local ad sales during The Tonight Show is a piddling compared to the 11pm news revenue. I think Leno is going to have the show now for as long as he wants it, though it's looking like he may lose the bragging rights of being a dominant #1 that his ego seems to cherish so much.

Being #1 also allows for higher advertising rates.
That's why NBC has been crowing about Leno beating Letterman for seven weeks out of seven.

Interesting point and probably a great catch. It's impossible to know if Conan would have done ok if NBC hadn't put Leno in that 10pm slot, but certainly having your prime competition drum up an audience thanks to a big scandal didn't help him.

If Letterman continues to hold back Leno it's probably well deserved no matter how creepy some may find Letterman. If it hadn't been for someone else with a very notorious scandal appearing on Leno's show way back when, he probably never would have gotten the audience that he did. So, perhaps it's all a big bit of karma.

I do think O'Brien lost enough viewers to Letterman to where he wasn't going to make NBC money and I think that they panicked. His 18-49 was falling.

I also think what happens with Letterman's ratings going forward will be dependent with what happens to his blackmailer.

Last time I checked, Letterman only beat Leno one night since Leno returned.
That was the day his blackmailer appeared in court.
(Both Letterman and Leno lost to Nightline when Nightline did a special on the Healthcare Reform bill the day before it's vote.)

If Letterman is truly slated to retire in 2012, and his blackmailer goes to trial instead of taking a plea bargain within that time period, it may be enough to vault him over Leno and allow him to retire on top.

Otherwise, I suspect that Leno will continue to beat Letterman by slim margins until one of them retires.
The next month will be key in determining that, I think.

And I really do think the Leno effect on O'Brien's show was overblown.
Leno hasn't had that much of a better 10 PM lead in than O'Brien did.

Original Law & Order has plummeted to less than Leno Show levels pulling a 1.6 to 1.8.

Parenthood is doing about 2.9 so that's a marked improvement and at least is beating V.


Law & Order: Special Victims pulled a 2.5 this week.

Marriage Ref pulled a 1.9 which is right around Leno levels.

And Dateline has never been a ratings champ.

It looks like NBC managed to not only severely damage their late night lineup with this fiasco, but their entire primetime lineup as well (http://tvbythenumbers.com/2010/04/15/nbc-affiliates-no-longer-whining-now-gloating-over-crushing-nbc-spring-ratings/48750).

[getreal]

Leno's reputation has been tainted by the NBC fiasco, but I predict another (perhaps temporary) boost to the Tonight Show ratings when Eubanks is replaced. They will want to milk that opportunity as much as possible.

Is there any word about replacements? Will it be JUST Kevin, or the whole band leaving?

It will be weird not to hear Eubanks' Mr. Magoo-like cackling laugh at Leno's inanity.

[Kamakzie]

Is there any word about replacements?

Ricky Miner from American Idol is taking his spot.

[getreal]

Ricky Miner from American Idol is taking his spot.

Has that been confirmed? I've never heard'o'da'bum. Google, here I come ...

ETA: Okay, so I was only 11 days behind the times. (http://extratv.warnerbros.com/2010/04/idol_bandleader_ricky_minor_to.php)

Obviously, I'm not watching Leno. I drop in on bits from time to time, but not regularly.

[Enrique]

Obviously, I'm not watching Leno. I drop in on bits from time to time, but not regularly.I watch Leno every night and I don't remember him saying anything about who would replace Kevin.

[Kamakzie]

http://www.popeater.com/2010/04/14/kevin-eubanks-replacement/

[inaka]

Leno's reputation has been tainted by the NBC fiasco, but I predict another (perhaps temporary) boost to the Tonight Show ratings when Eubanks is replaced. They will want to milk that opportunity as much as possible.
I predict it won't make a boost in Leno's ratings at all.

[terpfan1980]

Leno's reputation has been tainted by the NBC fiasco, but I predict another (perhaps temporary) boost to the Tonight Show ratings when Eubanks is replaced. They will want to milk that opportunity as much as possible.

Is there any word about replacements? Will it be JUST Kevin, or the whole band leaving?

It will be weird not to hear Eubanks' Mr. Magoo-like cackling laugh at Leno's inanity.

I watch Leno every night and I don't remember him saying anything about who would replace Kevin.

I predict it won't make a boost in Leno's ratings at all.

I didn't read the info at the link up there, nor have I heard/read anything about who will replace Kevin Eubanks, but I think inaka is correct, unless he's (Leno's) getting U2 or Greenday or someone like that it won't make a bit of difference, at least not beyond a few days of curiousity (if that).

[DevdogAZ]

I predict it won't make a boost in Leno's ratings at all.
Agreed. Nobody watches The Tonight Show for the band leader, but some people do enjoy the interaction between Jay and Kevin (just like a lot of people can't stand the interaction between Dave and Paul Shafer). If anything, I think it might hurt Leno's ratings a little, as it will take a while for Jay to develop a good repoire with Ricky Minor.

[MickeS]

I think it will boost Jay's ratings by 1: Ricky Minor will want to see himself on TV that first evening.

[FilmCritic3000]

http://i187.photobucket.com/albums/x18/jasoncinema/511UXLzf7L_SS500_.jpg

I just picked this up at Borders (it streets today) before I went into work. I thoroughly loved Bill Carter's book The Late Shift, which is an endlessly readable (I've re-read it dozens of times) account of the early '90s late night wars but so much more as well, really digging into the beginnings of Carson, Letterman, and Leno.

But I digress.

I can't wait to devour this book and I'll let everyone know what I think after I've read it.

[Turtleboy]

I'm almost finished with the book. I have a little bit more sympathy for Jay -- although I still think he should have told NBC to go eff themselves when they told him they were taking the show away five years ago.

But the real pinheads are Jeff Zucker and his crew.

[LoadStar]

But the real pinheads are Jeff Zucker and his crew.

Of that, I don't think there can be any argument... except perhaps from Zucker and his crew, of course. :)

[cmontyburns]

What a disaster. Recently Leno has been pulling lower numbers in the demo than Conan did, and last week he lost to Letterman in both the demo and in total viewers.

[morac]

What a disaster. Recently Leno has been pulling lower numbers in the demo than Conan did, and last week he lost to Letterman in both the demo and in total viewers.

And The Daily Show beat both Leno and Letterman in October.

[Turtleboy]

Ok, I finished it. It wasn't as good as The Late Shift, but that's because the underlying story wasn't as interesting.

I'll wait till some other people read it before commenting further.

[Enrique]

What a disaster. Recently Leno has been pulling lower numbers in the demo than Conan did, and last week he lost to Letterman in both the demo and in total viewers.I think it has nothing to do with Leno, but the loss of Kevin. Leno and Kevin both made the show for me, I stopped watching after Kevin left.

[Neenahboy]

Ok, I finished it. It wasn't as good as The Late Shift, but that's because the underlying story wasn't as interesting.

I'll wait till some other people read it before commenting further.

I'm about 150 pages in and liking it quite a bit. The accounts of behind-the-scenes dealings at NBC have proven enlightening, but I also appreciate that he fleshed out the late night landscape for us. For example, I had no idea that Jon Stewart's talks with ABC prior to the Kimmel offer were so advanced.

[Turtleboy]

One thing about Jay is that he has nothing in his life other than getting up and telling jokes, and collecting cars. He doesn't take vacations. If it were up to him, the Tonight Show would run 52 weeks a year. When the show is dark, he's off in Vegas or Boise, or wherever every single night telling jokes. He doesn't travel with his wife. It's like she barely even exists.

The only thing that matters to him is getting up and telling jokes.

I don't know if it's admirable or sad.

[Langree]

One thing about Jay is that he has nothing in his life other than getting up and telling jokes, and collecting cars. He doesn't take vacations. If it were up to him, the Tonight Show would run 52 weeks a year. When the show is dark, he's off in Vegas or Boise, or wherever every single night telling jokes. He doesn't travel with his wife. It's like she barely even exists.

The only thing that matters to him is getting up and telling jokes.

I don't know if it's admirable or sad.

My vote is sad.

[FilmCritic3000]

Ok, I finished it. It wasn't as good as The Late Shift, but that's because the underlying story wasn't as interesting.

I'll wait till some other people read it before commenting further.

I agree re: not as interesting as The Late Shift but I chalk that up to the news not being as readily available to us as it was when Bill Carter's previous book was published. Still, I found this new one to be just as fascinating reading about the machinations of NBC and the fly-on-the-wall stuff was terrific as well.

[Turtleboy]

Jeff Zucker didn't come off as a bad person. Sure, he screwed up. He shouldn't have offered Conan the Tonight Show in 2005, and once he did, he should have let Jay go. If what he tried worked, he would have been seen as a genius.

And when Jay was told that he had to give up the Tonight Show, he should have told them to go to hell. Like Letterman says, he should have gone to ABC for Fox or wherever and tried to beat the Tonight Show.

The biggest point I think I got from the whole thing is that everyone needs to get a grip. It's just a job and just a TV show. It's not the "Tonight Show Starring Johnny Carson" anymore. It's just the 1135 show on NBC, which is no different than the 1135 show on any other channel, no matter how romanticized it is.

[jsmeeker]

One thing about Jay is that he has nothing in his life other than getting up and telling jokes, and collecting cars. He doesn't take vacations. If it were up to him, the Tonight Show would run 52 weeks a year. When the show is dark, he's off in Vegas or Boise, or wherever every single night telling jokes. He doesn't travel with his wife. It's like she barely even exists.

The only thing that matters to him is getting up and telling jokes.

I don't know if it's admirable or sad.



If he really likes telling Bill Clinton and VCRs flashing 12:00 jokes, then I guess it's not sad.

[JYoung]

I think it has nothing to do with Leno, but the loss of Kevin. Leno and Kevin both made the show for me, I stopped watching after Kevin left.
I would think that the number of fans that stopped watching because the band leader left is a drop in the bucket of the number of fans who were already out of the habit of watching The Tonight Show by the time Jay Leno came back.

Leno's rating plummeted before Eubanks left.

Jeff Zucker didn't come off as a bad person. Sure, he screwed up. He shouldn't have offered Conan the Tonight Show in 2005, and once he did, he should have let Jay go. If what he tried worked, he would have been seen as a genius.


I don't see how it would have worked long term.
Zucker admitted that they weren't programming for ratings anymore and I think that ratings erosion would have happened across the entire NBC lineup even if Leno's 10 PM show continued to be profitable.

[Turtleboy]

In hindsight, it didn't work and couldn't of worked. But there are a lot of things that have been great successes that no one thought would work.

What I also found interesting was all of the backchannel communications between the shows. They all watch each other, and if someone does a joke that they don't like, they'll call each other and complain.

As I said far earlier in the thread, and as Smeek alluded to just now, I was actually a fan of Jay Leno's -- until I saw him in concert. When we saw him in May of 2009 (2008?) in Las Vegas, I was really disappointed that his entire act consisted of jokes that seem to have come from his 1994 monologues. Bill Clinton is horny. Mom can't use a VCR. It was very hacky.

[jcondon]

Link to Conan's first guest tonight. Weird choice but, well it is Conan.

http://www.tmz.com/person/conan-obrien/

I hope he buries Leno.

[loubob57]

I hope he buries Leno.

Not gonna happen.

Leno is having W as a guest tonight. He does have a book to plug.

[terpfan1980]

Link to Conan's first guest tonight. Weird choice but, well it is Conan.

http://www.tmz.com/person/conan-obrien/

I hope he buries Leno.

Not gonna happen.

Leno is having W as a guest tonight. He does have a book to plug.

He may not take it for now, but over time I don't expect Leno will be able to keep his ratings up, especially not in the key demos. Having Coco on earlier gives him a nice head start and if the guests are interesting, it should help his new show be very competitive.

[JYoung]

Link to Conan's first guest tonight. Weird choice but, well it is Conan.

http://www.tmz.com/person/conan-obrien/

I hope he buries Leno.

Not gonna happen.

Leno is having W as a guest tonight. He does have a book to plug.

He may not take it for now, but over time I don't expect Leno will be able to keep his ratings up, especially not in the key demos. Having Coco on earlier gives him a nice head start and if the guests are interesting, it should help his new show be very competitive.

Not sure I agree as I think that those who would watch O'Brien over Leno are already not watching Leno due to the fiasco.

I think that if O'Brien is going to take viewers, it's going to come mostly from Letterman, and Stewart.

[DevdogAZ]

And when Jay was told that he had to give up the Tonight Show, he should have told them to go to hell. Like Letterman says, he should have gone to ABC for Fox or wherever and tried to beat the Tonight Show.
This is my only problem with your analysis here. Sure, it would have been great if Leno told NBC to eff off and went to a competing network just to spite them. But at the time, NBC was offering him more money to move to 10 pm than anyone else. And the move to 10 pm had the potential to be a groundbreaking development in the world of televised comedy. That it turned out to be a major disaster sucks for everyone involved, but I don't think we can really fault Leno for the choice to stick around at NBC given the information he had at the time and the amount of money they were offering him to stay.
Link to Conan's first guest tonight. Weird choice but, well it is Conan.

http://www.tmz.com/person/conan-obrien/

I hope he buries Leno.
I noticed on my guide data that Conan has Tom Hanks tomorrow night. I'm kind of surprised that both Conan and Hanks couldn't shift some things around to get Tom Hanks as the inaugural guest rather than Seth Rogen, since Hanks is a much, much bigger name.
He may not take it for now, but over time I don't expect Leno will be able to keep his ratings up, especially not in the key demos. Having Coco on earlier gives him a nice head start and if the guests are interesting, it should help his new show be very competitive.
The weird thing about Conan being on cable is that he's not necessarily on earlier than Leno/Letterman. Here in Arizona, we get Leno and Letterman at 10:35. Kimmel starts at 11:05. Conan's show won't start (at least on our local cable provider) until midnight. It will have later airings at 2 or 3 am, but the first showing for Cox customers in the Phoenix metro area will be at midnight.

[BK89]

I have not watched Leno since the Conan fiasco, even when one of my world champ SF Giants, Brian Wilson, was on last week. I just could not bring myself to sit through Leno...

[trainman]

The weird thing about Conan being on cable is that he's not necessarily on earlier than Leno/Letterman.

On the other hand, since I have satellite, Conan will be on a lot earlier than the others for me. Leno and Letterman at 11:35, Kimmel at 12:05, Conan at 8:00 (in addition to Stewart/Colbert).

[DevdogAZ]

On the other hand, since I have satellite, Conan will be on a lot earlier than the others for me. Leno and Letterman at 11:35, Kimmel at 12:05, Conan at 8:00 (in addition to Stewart/Colbert).
Do you have both east and west coast feeds or does your provider only provide you the east coast feed?

[smak]

This is my only problem with your analysis here. Sure, it would have been great if Leno told NBC to eff off and went to a competing network just to spite them. But at the time, NBC was offering him more money to move to 10 pm than anyone else. And the move to 10 pm had the potential to be a groundbreaking development in the world of televised comedy. That it turned out to be a major disaster sucks for everyone involved, but I don't think we can really fault Leno for the choice to stick around at NBC given the information he had at the time and the amount of money they were offering him to stay.


Turtleboy is saying that Leno should have told NBC to eff off, 6 years ago, when they said in 5 years we're replacing you.

-smak-

[smak]

Not sure I agree as I think that those who would watch O'Brien over Leno are already not watching Leno due to the fiasco.

I think that if O'Brien is going to take viewers, it's going to come mostly from Letterman, and Stewart.

This isn't good for anybody, except Conan if he does well for TBS.

Leno will probably strengthen his lead, but he will lose viewers. Maybe not as much as Letterman will, but if you lose 200,000 viewers, it's losing 200,000 viewers. Isn't much consolation to the NBC that Dave loses 400,000, except for being #1, but I'm not sure the bragging rights are better than the viewers.

-smak-

[Turtleboy]

Another interesting point in the book is that Conan will be on more TVs tonight on TBS than he would have been if he went to Fox, even though TBS is cable and Fox is broadcast.

That's because many Fox channels are locked into long term contracts to show syndicated Seinfeld or the Office. TBS is on almost 100% of basic cable systems.

[DevdogAZ]

Turtleboy is saying that Leno should have told NBC to eff off, 6 years ago, when they said in 5 years we're replacing you.

-smak-
Hindsight makes that an easy call, but at the time I don't think it was so cut and dried. In 2004, Leno was 54 (I think), had just signed a new contract that would pay him an additional $100+ million over the next five years, and he was then told that at the end of that contract, he'd be replaced. Knowing what he knew at the time, it made more sense to stick with NBC, toe the company line, and continue collecting huge checks.

Sure, he could have been a dick at the time and told NBC that he won't leave until he's ready and that Conan can pry that desk from his cold, dead ass, but what would that have served? Maybe NBC sides with Leno and Conan leaves. Maybe NBC sides with Conan and Leno leaves. Maybe they work out some slightly different succession plan that Leno helps negotiate. But ultimately, knowing what Leno knew at the time, there was no reason to force the issue like that. For all he knew, he might have been happy to give up the show at age 59. In 2004, he had no way of knowing that in 2009 he'd still have #1 ratings and that telling jokes on TV everyday was still the only thing he wanted to do with his life.

[Waldorf]

Not gonna happen.

Leno is having W as a guest tonight. He does have a book to plug.

Inquiring minds want to know... what were the ratings with Conan/Rogan vs Leno/W?

As far as I can find, Conan pulled in around 4.2 million viewers vs Leno's 3.5 million.

http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/showtracker/2010/11/conan-obrien-grabs-42-million-viewers-in-tbs-premiere.html

[DevdogAZ]

Inquiring minds want to know... what were the ratings with Conan/Rogan vs Leno/W?

As far as I can find, Conan pulled in around 4.2 million viewers vs Leno's 3.5 million.

http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/showtracker/2010/11/conan-obrien-grabs-42-million-viewers-in-tbs-premiere.html
And the 18-49 ratings were an even bigger difference. Conan got a 2.5 rating while Leno got a 0.8. (Leno has been averaging about a 0.9-1.0 over the last couple months.)

[ElJay]

It will be interesting to see how long Leno hangs around in 2nd or 3rd place. He talked a lot about how he was always "number one" after he was removed from the spot. It's looking increasingly likely that he won't have this "number one" excuse for hanging around anymore.

[DevdogAZ]

It will be interesting to see how long Leno hangs around in 2nd or 3rd place. He talked a lot about how he was always "number one" after he was removed from the spot. It's looking increasingly likely that he won't have this "number one" excuse for hanging around anymore.
Based on what? He's still been #1 ever since he came back (although with lower ratings and smaller margins between him and Letterman). Just because Conan beats him on Conan's premiere night doesn't mean Conan's ratings are going to stay that high. I'll be shocked if Conan doesn't fall down to a 0.8 or lower after a couple of weeks.

And if you're refering to The Daily Show's ratings in October, those numbers were highly manipulated to get the result Comedy Central wanted in their press release. If you just take the straight ratings, Leno is still the #1 rated late-night show.

[trainman]

Do you have both east and west coast feeds or does your provider only provide you the east coast feed?

The answer will be the same for everyone who has DirecTV or Dish Network: they both carry only East Coast feeds of most channels. On DirecTV, the exceptions are a handful of the premium movie channels, plus the main kids' channels (Disney, Nickelodeon, Cartoon Network), for which they carry both East and West feeds.

[LoadStar]

Do you have both east and west coast feeds or does your provider only provide you the east coast feed?

I'm not sure that TBS has a east/west feed. Based on a quick web search, they apparently had one at one point, but I think they may have discontinued it.

They're referring to the 1:00 AM ET broadcast on the "east coast" feed as the west coast broadcast.

Edit: I guess they do have a west coast feed (based on this forum post (http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=18675314)). I guess since neither DTV nor Dish use it, they're still rebroadcasting the show at 1 AM ET for west coast viewers who only get the east coast feed.

Edit again: apparently the west coast HD is very new. It started in June of this year. Looks like the west coast SD feed started in 2003.