Jay Leno is killing NBC [Text View] - Page 6

Doggie Bear

01-19-2010, 01:47 PM

NBC didn't fire Conan. NBC decided to keep Conan, but move his show. If Jay didn't want to be on NBC any more, Conan would most likely still be hosting The Tonight Show in the 11:30 timeslot. Unless you think Jeff Zucker is some kind of evil genius who can see into men's souls, NBC's moves were all geared toward keeping Jay off another network, not about getting rid of Conan.
Without getting into the specifics of what exactly happened, I just want to point out that there's a concept in employment law known as "constructive discharge" where an employer unreasonably makes life so miserable and intolerable for an employee that the employee quits. If the employee then sues the employer for employment discrimination (or breach of contract, if the employee had an employment contract), it is not a defense to say that the employer did not fire the employee.

Of course, whether NBC in fact constructively discharged Conan is a different question and one I'm not speaking to.

MickeS

01-19-2010, 01:49 PM

The interesting thing about Jay's version of the story, which I don't think we've discussed yet (because nobody knew this until last night), is that Jay asked to be let out of his contract when he left The Tonight Show, and NBC refused. He again asked to be let out of his contract in the last couple of weeks, and again NBC refused. I think Leno would love to take his act and his staff and go to another network and stick it to NBC. But since they won't release him from his contract, and won't pay him to remain idle, and he wants to continue working, his only choice is to do what NBC tells him to do, which is do a show at 11:35 once the Olympics end.

Of course, Jay could have taken a vacation from TV for a year or so, and everything would have been OK, according to his version. Obviously, that's not what he wished to do.

stalemate

01-19-2010, 01:51 PM

I'm sure this has been covered but I am being lazy. When is Conan's last episode of The Tonight Show?

DevdogAZ

01-19-2010, 01:52 PM

I'm sure this has been covered but I am being lazy. When is Conan's last episode of The Tonight Show?
This Friday, Jan. 22. NBC's original plan was to keep the status quo until the Winter Olympics started, or until Feb. 12. He was already planning to be off the air the week of Jan 25, so it didn't really make sense for them all to come back for two weeks, so they chose Jan. 22 to end it all.

marksman

01-19-2010, 01:56 PM

Jay didn't truly keep his word because he was going to leave NBC and go elsewhere and do a show. Be that ABC, FOX or wherever. NBC got wind of it and decided to keep him (via non-compete clauses and via offering him a show at 10pm nightly).

He said that the Tonight Show was a torch, and he was passing it to Conan and he was going to step aside. He did EXACTLY that. He even asked to be let out of his contract with NBC. Jay never said he was retiring from Entertainment. He said he was stepping aside and letting Conan move into the Tonight Show. If Jay did not want to do that, he certainly could have caused it not to happen at all.

Jay wanting to move on after leaving the Tonight Show is not him not keeping his word.

Why would Jay be under an obligation to just disappear because Conan was taking over the Tonight Show?

In terms of how NBC handled it. Certainly they could of done it differently to give everyone a better chance. I suspect holding back Jay was an option but one they chose not to do because they realized there was a real chance that Conan would fail relative to Jay and they would all lose their jobs over that. That is why I think they rushed to force Jay on at 10:00pm. This way even if Conan failed, they could say yeah but it was all part of our master plan to reinvent Prime time. These guys were programming scared.

As that Mark Evanaire (sorry forgot his name), pointed out. Network Programmers are not long term thinkers because they are always on the verge of being fired. Holding Leno back would not have done them any good, because they started to worry about Conan on the Tonight Show. In the 5 years in between Leno did not really fall off. As Mark E also said, Zucker made the decision 5 years ago thinking he probably would not be around in 5 years so who cared anyways.

That is kind of the point of the whole thing though. There are 100 ways NBC could have managed this better, and it almost seems like they made the wrong choice every single time. Which is pretty hard to do.

bicker

01-19-2010, 01:57 PM

Of course, whether NBC in fact constructively discharged Conan is a different question and one I'm not speaking to.Conan's final NBC paycheck, endorsed by Conan, would almost surely disqualify him for protection under those provisions of law. ;)

Adam1115

01-19-2010, 02:05 PM

Of course, Jay could have taken a vacation from TV for a year or so, and everything would have been OK, according to his version. Obviously, that's not what he wished to do.

Why do you assume NBC was willing to pay him to do nothing? Leno was still under contract. That means they either let him go work somewhere else, or he still works there.

I don't think 'sit on your ass and collect a paycheck, then go to another network in a year' was one of the options...

MickeS

01-19-2010, 02:07 PM

Why do you assume NBC was willing to pay him to do nothing? Leno was still under contract. That means they either let him go work somewhere else, or he still works there.

I don't think 'sit on your ass and collect a paycheck, then go to another network in a year' was one of the options...

Good point.

marksman

01-19-2010, 02:07 PM

Also how are all these changes going to effect Poker After Dark?

That is the only NBC late night show I watch with any regularity any more anyways.

DevdogAZ

01-19-2010, 02:14 PM

In terms of how NBC handled it. Certainly they could of done it differently to give everyone a better chance. I suspect holding back Jay was an option but one they chose not to do because they realized there was a real chance that Conan would fail relative to Jay and they would all lose their jobs over that. That is why I think they rushed to force Jay on at 10:00pm. This way even if Conan failed, they could say yeah but it was all part of our master plan to reinvent Prime time. These guys were programming scared.
The problem is, Leno wanted to work. He was under contract to NBC. NBC wouldn't let him out of his contract. So they had to put him on the air or pay him a big chunk of cash. There was never really an option to hold Leno back for a year so Conan could find his way.

Putting Leno on the air was the obvious choice, because not only would it mean that they wouldn't have to pay a contract penalty, but because they would be able to make a tidy profit in the 10 pm hour.

Also, I don't think there was any thought at NBC that Conan's ratings would be so poor. They'd been enamored with him for several years, to the point that they kicked out a top-rated guy in Conan's favor. So I don't think there was ever any thought by the NBC execs that Conan might fail. That he did, and that they had no plan to fix it, is evidence of that.

aindik

01-19-2010, 02:14 PM

aindik

01-19-2010, 02:20 PM

The problem is, Leno wanted to work. He was under contract to NBC. NBC wouldn't let him out of his contract. So they had to put him on the air or pay him a big chunk of cash. There was never really an option to hold Leno back for a year so Conan could find his way.

They gave Conan a contract that promised him the Tonight Show by June of 2009 but then signed Jay Leno to a contract that lasted longer than June of 2009? What for, other than to keep him on ice after Conan started, and to pay for that icing?

Unless Leno's contract, lasting past 2009, was signed before Conan's was signed in 2004. If so, then NBC knew when it signed Conan's contract that it would have to either pay Leno to not work or put him on the air somewhere.

DevdogAZ

01-19-2010, 02:20 PM

Leno was under contract, but I'm not sure for how long. Also, he signed a new contract when he was moved to 10:00. Maybe under his old contract NBC didn't have the right to move him to 10:00. Perhaps they only had the right to demand that he a) do the 11:35 Tonight Show and/or b) not work on any other network.

They gave Conan a contract that promised him the Tonight Show by June of 2009 but then signed Jay Leno to a contract that lasted longer than June of 2009? What for, other than to keep him on ice after Conan started, and to pay for that icing?

Unless Leno's contract, lasting past 2009, was signed before Conan's was signed in 2004. If so, then NBC knew when it signed Conan's contract that it would have to either pay Leno to not work or put him on the air somewhere.
From the way Jay explained it last night, it sounded like Jay's contract went until the end of 2009, even though he gave up the show in May 2009. We don't know when that contract was signed, but if I had to guess, that's the contract that was in force in 2004 when NBC told Leno he'd be done in 2009. The timing of the actual transition probably wasn't finalized until later.

So NBC had three options, as I see it:

1. Let Leno out of his contract early so he could go find another job elsewhere.
2. Pay Leno to sit around and do nothing until his contract ended, at which point Leno would be able to sign with another network, but would still probably take six months to get a show off the ground.
3. Extend Leno's contract and give him a different show to host.

Jay asked for #1 but was denied by NBC. NBC obviously didn't want to do #2, so they went ahead and did #3.

aindik

01-19-2010, 02:22 PM

From the way Jay explained it last night, it sounded like Jay's contract went until the end of 2009, even though he gave up the show in May 2009.

So NBC had three options, as I see it:

1. Let Leno out of his contract early so he could go find another job elsewhere.
2. Pay Leno to sit around and do nothing until his contract ended, at which point Leno would be able to sign with another network, but would still probably take six months to get a show off the ground.
3. Extend Leno's contract and give him a different show to host.

Jay asked for #1 but was denied by NBC. NBC obviously didn't want to do #2, so they went ahead and did #3.

If they signed Jay to a contract expiring in December 2009, with full knowledge that he would be leaving the Tonight Show in May of 2009, what did they think was going to happen for the period in between?

I don't think it's so obvious that they didn't want to do 2. I think 2 is fully what they intended to do when they signed the deal.

What's more, if Jay wanted to pass the NBC late night torch to Conan as he said, he could have allowed, even demanded, that 2 happen. Instead, he went for 3.

marksman

01-19-2010, 02:24 PM

I think they could have done it if they had the balls to do it. They are the ones that somehow ended up given them both contracts while only one had a show. How did that manage to happen in the first place?

If they knew 5 years ago that Conan was going to take over, how did Leno still have a contract? And yes they could have sat him for a while and paid him, if they really wanted to give things a chance. They chose not to...

Blowing up your entire primetime schedule because you don't want to pay Jay's salary for doing nothing for one year seems like a pretty bad trade-off.

I do think as it got closer to reality the NBC execs did worry about Conan and what they did. As that Mark E. guy noted, they likely expected Leno might have been falling off at this point and the transition would make sense. The reality is there was really not much difference from 5 years ago, comparatively speaking.

I do agree with you that they jumped in, but it was potentially part of their strategy in keeping Jay around to have as a fallback if Conan failed. As you noted, that is part of the problem though. Conan never got a fair chance. Jay's shadow was over-bearing the whole time, and not because of Jay.

DevdogAZ

01-19-2010, 02:25 PM

If they signed Jay to a contract expiring in December 2009, with full knowledge that he would be leaving the Tonight Show in May of 2009, what did they think was going to happen for the period in between?

I don't think it's so obvious that they didn't want to do 2. I think 2 is fully what they intended to do when they signed the deal.
I just edited my previous post to respond to yours. I think it's pretty clear that Leno's contract that ended on December 31, 2009 was signed before NBC told Leno that Conan would be taking over in 2009. I'm guessing that's part of the reason NBC chose that date. I can't imagine that they'd tell Leno he was being forced off the show in 2009 but he only had a contract through 2007, so that there was a contract extension signed after the retirement notice. I doubt Leno would have agreed to stay with NBC if his contract expired any time between the 2004 announcment of Conan taking over in 2009 and that takeover.

aindik

01-19-2010, 02:26 PM

Blowing up your entire primetime schedule because you don't want to pay Jay's salary for doing nothing for one year seems like a pretty bad trade-off.

Even worse is that it wasn't even a year. It was the 7 months from June through December, 2009.

Amnesia

01-19-2010, 02:26 PM

(...) they chose Jan. 22 to end it all.Has this been officially stated? I've seen numerous media stories quoting "high-level NBC execs", but I don't recall seeing anything official. Is it even official that Jay will be taking back Tonight? Or that Conan is no more?

aindik

01-19-2010, 02:31 PM

I just edited my previous post to respond to yours. I think it's pretty clear that Leno's contract that ended on December 31, 2009 was signed before NBC told Leno that Conan would be taking over in 2009. I'm guessing that's part of the reason NBC chose that date. I can't imagine that they'd tell Leno he was being forced off the show in 2009 but he only had a contract through 2007, so that there was a contract extension signed after the retirement notice. I doubt Leno would have agreed to stay with NBC if his contract expired any time between the 2004 announcment of Conan taking over in 2009 and that takeover.

I'm wondering why they signed Jay through the end of 2009 but guaranteed Conan the Tonight Show by June. If it all happened at the same time, then the only logical explanation is that they did it explicitly to build in some time for Leno to sit on the shelf before he can get on TV somewhere else.

EDIT: And there probably isn't anything in Jay's contract, or most anyone else's contract, that says they can't negotiate with another network during the term of the contract, about what will happen after the contract expires. It happens all the time. Howard Stern announced in 2004 that he would begin on Sirius in January of 2006. There was no breach of his CBS contract by his negotiating with Sirius, so long as he didn't appear on their air until after the contract expired. And he started with Sirius right after his traditional three week Christmas vacation.

So, even with Jay's contract expiring in December, he could have signed a contract with Fox in April and done everything with them to prepare for the show other than appear on the air. Which means he could have launched his Fox show the day after his NBC contract expired.

DevdogAZ

01-19-2010, 02:37 PM

Blowing up your entire primetime schedule because you don't want to pay Jay's salary for doing nothing for one year seems like a pretty bad trade-off.
Except that's not what happened. NBC didn't really have much for the 10 pm slot, and they were not as profitable as they wanted to be, and they still had Leno under contract. So they tried to kill three birds with one stone. From a purely financial standpoint, it wasn't a bad decision. They made a lot more money off The Jay Leno Show than they would have from scripted drama. However, the collateral damage they did to the affiliates and the network reputation probably outweigh any financial benefits of the decision. But in fall of 2008 when the decision was made, it wasn't made just to keep from paying Leno not to work. It was made to try and shore up the profitability of the network.
Has this been officially stated? I've seen numerous media stories quoting "high-level NBC execs", but I don't recall seeing anything official. Is it even official that Jay will be taking back Tonight? Or that Conan is no more?
After seeing your question, I've looked and found multiple stories stating that Jan. 22 is the "likely" end date, but I guess there's been nothing official. I thought what I read previously was official but I guess it's not.

DevdogAZ

01-19-2010, 02:43 PM

I'm wondering why they signed Jay through the end of 2009 but guaranteed Conan the Tonight Show by June. If it all happened at the same time, then the only logical explanation is that they did it explicitly to build in some time for Leno to sit on the shelf before he can get on TV somewhere else.

EDIT: And there probably isn't anything in Jay's contract, or most anyone else's contract, that says they can't negotiate with another network during the term of the contract, about what will happen after the contract expires. It happens all the time. Howard Stern announced in 2004 that he would begin on Sirius in January of 2006. There was no breach of his CBS contract by his negotiating with Sirius, so long as he didn't appear on their air until after the contract expired. And he started with Sirius right after his traditional three week Christmas vacation.

So, even with Jay's contract expiring in December, he could have signed a contract with Fox in April and done everything with them to prepare for the show other than appear on the air. Which means he could have launched his Fox show the day after his NBC contract expired.
I'm guessing that the timing of the transition from Leno to Conan was decided long after the contracts were already in place. They probably decided that ending Jay's show at the end of the traditional TV season made the most sense, rather than having Leno start his show in Fall 2009 only to end it a couple months later.

True, Leno probably could have negotiated with another network while he was still under contract at NBC. But it's unlikely that another network would be willing to blow up their own late-night schedules mid-season. I imagine there are probably contracts and such with other shows that run for the duration of the regular TV season. It simply would have made more sense for all involved if Leno's new show on ABC or Fox started in fall 2010.

Turtleboy

01-19-2010, 02:44 PM

It seems like Conan's biggest mistake was not making Lorne Michaels a producer of The Tonight Show. Everyone needs to have protection.

aindik

01-19-2010, 02:47 PM

I'm guessing that the timing of the transition from Leno to Conan was decided long after the contracts were already in place. They probably decided that ending Jay's show at the end of the traditional TV season made the most sense, rather than having Leno start his show in Fall 2009 only to end it a couple months later.

I think the timing of the transition was very explicit in Conan's contract. I suppose it's possible that it just says "2009," but I thought I read that it explicitly said June.

True, Leno probably could have negotiated with another network while he was still under contract at NBC. But it's unlikely that another network would be willing to blow up their own late-night schedules mid-season. I imagine there are probably contracts and such with other shows that run for the duration of the regular TV season. It simply would have made more sense for all involved if Leno's new show on ABC or Fox started in fall 2010.

Fox didn't (and still doesn't) have a late night schedule to blow up. Though, their affiliates do, so that's probably a factor. I think Fox could have announced to the affiliates in April or May that they were launching the Jay Leno Show at 11 p.m. starting January 4.

Turtleboy

01-19-2010, 02:54 PM

I don't think Fox would have ever wanted Jay Leno. His demographics skew old.

DevdogAZ

01-19-2010, 02:56 PM

I think the timing of the transition was very explicit in Conan's contract. I suppose it's possible that it just says "2009," but I thought I read that it explicitly said June.
I think you're missing my point. I think Leno's contract that ran through December 2009 was already in place when they signed Conan's deal that gave him TTS in 2009. At that point, it was just trying to figure out the best time of year to make the switch, and the end of the TV season made the most sense, despite Leno's contract.
Fox didn't (and still doesn't) have a late night schedule to blow up. Though, their affiliates do, so that's probably a factor. I think Fox could have announced to the affiliates in April or May that they were launching the Jay Leno Show at 11 p.m. starting January 4.
Anything is possible. I'm just saying that it's unlikely that anything would have happened before Fall 2010, which coincides with what Leno said in his explanation last night.

ElJay

01-19-2010, 03:01 PM

Of course, ElJay conveniently forgets that the original plan was Leno at 11:35 and O'Brien at 12:05, which O'Brien balked at and decided to walk over.

The original plan was Conan at 11:35 and Leno goes bye bye. I don't know why Leno could not have sat around for another three or four months until his NBC contract expired. He already waited from May to the fall to start the "Jay Leno Show."

marksman

01-19-2010, 03:01 PM

I think you're missing my point. I think Leno's contract that ran through December 2009 was already in place when they signed Conan's deal that gave him TTS in 2009. At that point, it was just trying to figure out the best time of year to make the switch, and the end of the TV season made the most sense, despite Leno's contract.

If that is the case then, aren't you assuming that Leno is sitting out and getting paid?

They all had to know this overlap existed. What did they assume was going to happen?

DevdogAZ

01-19-2010, 03:08 PM

The original plan was Conan at 11:35 and Leno goes bye bye. I don't know why Leno could not have sat around for another three or four months until his NBC contract expired. He already waited from May to the fall to start the "Jay Leno Show."

If that is the case then, aren't you assuming that Leno is sitting out and getting paid?

They all had to know this overlap existed. What did they assume was going to happen?
As Leno explained last night, NBC didn't think he'd be able to maintain his #1 ratings for the entire five years, and thought he'd be ready to retire when he turned the show over. As it became apparent in the fall of 2008 that not only was Leno's popularity as high as ever, but that Leno intended to continue working, even if that meant going to another network, NBC made the decision to keep Leno around and give him a new show. The point is that Leno didn't make the decision, NBC did. NBC could have told him, "Tough beans, Jay. We're paying you your salary until the end of 2009 and we don't want you to do anything but stay off our airwaves." But they didn't say that. They offered Jay a raise, a new challenge, and a chance to stay on the air doing what he loves to do.

NBC could have done a lot of things differently and we might not be discussing this right now. But the fact is that they did offer Leno a new contract and a new show, so the point is moot about whether they could have kept him on ice for the remainder of his contract.

aindik

01-19-2010, 03:18 PM

As Leno explained last night, NBC didn't think he'd be able to maintain his #1 ratings for the entire five years, and thought he'd be ready to retire when he turned the show over. As it became apparent in the fall of 2008 that not only was Leno's popularity as high as ever, but that Leno intended to continue working, even if that meant going to another network, NBC made the decision to keep Leno around and give him a new show. The point is that Leno didn't make the decision, NBC did. NBC could have told him, "Tough beans, Jay. We're paying you your salary until the end of 2009 and we don't want you to do anything but stay off our airwaves." But they didn't say that. They offered Jay a raise, a new challenge, and a chance to stay on the air doing what he loves to do.

NBC could have done a lot of things differently and we might not be discussing this right now. But the fact is that they did offer Leno a new contract and a new show, so the point is moot about whether they could have kept him on ice for the remainder of his contract.

They offered him a new contract. He didn't have to take it.

MickeS

01-19-2010, 03:20 PM

Blowing up your entire primetime schedule because you don't want to pay Jay's salary for doing nothing for one year seems like a pretty bad trade-off.

They didn't blow up the primetime schedule because of that. They blew it up because they kept losing money on it. Last year, it seemed more likely that they would go to 2 hours of primetime than keep doing 5 hours of expensive, low-rated drama. Or at most, just plug the schedule with even more inexpensive, low-rated docusoap junk. for NBC, it probably seemed like a win-win situation to get Jay into primetime.

bicker

01-19-2010, 03:22 PM

Do keep in mind that Leno at 10PM only bumped 3 hours of scripted programming, not 5.

vertigo235

01-19-2010, 03:27 PM

Of course, Jay could have taken a vacation from TV for a year or so, and everything would have been OK, according to his version. Obviously, that's not what he wished to do.

You're not thinking about the big picture, what about Jay's staff? Jay also seems to be looking out for his staff too.

Sure a year off is easily doable for Jay, but what about his staff? I'm not saying that his staff would be out on the streets, but they may get jobs elsewhere and Jay would lose valuable members of his staff, etc.

vertigo235

01-19-2010, 03:37 PM

They offered him a new contract. He didn't have to take it.

But why wouldn't he take it?

DevdogAZ

01-19-2010, 03:38 PM

They offered him a new contract. He didn't have to take it.
Do you think that's realistic? They offered Leno a new challenge: a prime-time comedy/talk show and offered to pay him nearly $50 million per year to do it. In addition, they allowed him to keep his entire staff and stay in roughly the same location. Everything Leno wanted was contained in this offer.

Could he have turned it down? Sure. But why? So he could try and negotiate for a show at a different network that would have almost certainly kept him off the air for a year, would not have guaranteed him as much money, and would have meant much of his staff would have had to go looking for jobs?

aindik

01-19-2010, 03:50 PM

DevdogAZ

01-19-2010, 03:54 PM

Here's an article from 2004 that reports on Jay's new contract, for the Tonight Show through 2009 for $27 million a year.

http://www.ew.com/ew/article/0,,605847,00.html

The article says Conan wasn't signed past 2005 yet as of the date of that article.

So we now know that they knew Leno was signed through 2009 when they signed Conan. If they also knew, when they signed Conan, that they were going to do the transition at the end of a TV season, then had to have known, when they signed Conan, that they were going to pay Jay $15.75 million while he sat out for 7 months.

Jay could have done that. Sat out for 7 months, collect $15.75 million of NBC's money, and launch a new show on another network in January if a network would have him. That would have been in fulfilling his commitment to step aside in 2009 to avoid "what happened last time." Instead, he signs on to do a show that both upstages Conan on a nightly basis and kills his ratings lead-in. And now he swoops in to take back the 11:35 slot, instead of, again, sitting on the sidelines and collecting a pile of money and letting Conan do the show he handed off 7 months ago.
Feel free to rewrite history in a way that villifies Leno if you want, but the truth remains that NBC is the entity making the decisions here. Leno, being under contract at all relevant points, is simply doing what he's being asked by his employers, in an effort to continue doing what he loves to do and keep his staff of 175 people gainfully employed.

And to claim that Leno should have turned down NBC's offer of the 10 pm show and the money that goes with it, in some kind of show of respect to Conan, is simply unrealistic. Jay isn't in it for NBC or for Conan. He's in it for himself, his staff, and his show. If NBC is willing to pay him $40+ million per year, he would be insane not to accept that deal just because Conan is taking over his old timeslot.

aindik

01-19-2010, 03:55 PM

Feel free to rewrite history in a way the villifies Leno if you want, but the truth remains that NBC is the entity making the decisions here. Leno, being under contract at all relevant points, is simply doing what he's being asked by his employers, in an effort to continue doing what he loves to do and keep his staff of 175 people gainfully employed.

He was under contract until the end of 2009. The decision to extend his contract beyond that was his to make.

Is there a law that prevents Jay from paying his staff to sit out while he does? If he's going to go to another network to do a show, he could certainly demand that the new network pay his staff during any layoff (in exchange for less money for himself). Many of them, of not most, would actually have to be working on the new show long before it got on the air anyway.

What happened to his staff between May and September of 2009? I'm assuming somebody paid them.

vertigo235

01-19-2010, 03:56 PM

Instead, he signs on to do a show that both upstages Conan on a nightly basis and kills his ratings lead-in. And now he swoops in to take back the 11:35 slot, instead of, again, sitting on the sidelines and collecting a pile of money and letting Conan do the show he handed off 7 months ago.

OK, first I'll start by saying that I like Conan a lot, and I really hate what's happening to him. I will watch him if he ends up on another network.

But I have to ask you, WHY do you think Leno OWES anything to Conan?

If your boss comes to you and says that they want to give you a raise and promote you, are you going to turn down that job simply because it's going to "upstage" someone else? Also remember, Jay has OTHER people that work for him, do you think they would be OK with sitting around for 7 months and doing nothing, collecting NO cash?

MickeS

01-19-2010, 03:57 PM

Jay could have done that. Sat out for 7 months, collect $15.75 million of NBC's money, and launch a new show on another network in January if a network would have him. That would have been in fulfilling his commitment to step aside in 2009 to avoid "what happened last time." Instead, he signs on to do a show that both upstages Conan on a nightly basis and kills his ratings lead-in. And now he swoops in to take back the 11:35 slot, instead of, again, sitting on the sidelines and collecting a pile of money and letting Conan do the show he handed off 7 months ago.
If Jay had been offered a talk show on another channel, it would surely have been at the 11:35 PM time. If he had accepted that, and assuming it would have had close to the ratings of his previous show, people would have said that Jay was now upstaging Conan and taking the ratings (and thus devaluing the Tonight Show heritage, history, value etc) from him.

aindik

01-19-2010, 04:00 PM

If your boss comes to you and says that they want to give you a raise and promote you, are you going to turn down that job simply because it's going to "upstage" someone else?

That depends. Did I say five years ago that that's what I was going to do? Am I 60 years old? Did I earn anywhere near $27 million a year for the last 4 years?

He owes it to Conan to do that because that's what he said he was going to do.

timckelley

01-19-2010, 04:00 PM

When asked to do a 30 minute show, preempting the Tonight Show, my wife thinks that at that point, he should have told his boss he'll get back with them, and then she thinks Leno should have called Conan to see if he's fine with a 30 minute delay of the Tonight Show, considering that he'd previously agreed to hand off the torch (implying that the Tonight Show dynasty needs to be kept intact).

Assuming Conan would not have been fine with it, she thinks Leno should have called his bosses and declined the deal, saying that the Tonight Show needs to continue at it's normal time slot with Conan at the helm.

I agree with my wife that this sounds nice, though I can see where it would take a pretty big man to do this. However, it would have gone a long way towards making the public admire Leno.

aindik

01-19-2010, 04:02 PM

If Jay had been offered a talk show on another channel, it would surely have been at the 11:35 PM time.

If it was Fox, it would have been 11 p.m., but your point mostly still stands.

If he had accepted that, and assuming it would have had close to the ratings of his previous show, people would have said that Jay was now upstaging Conan and taking the ratings (and thus devaluing the Tonight Show heritage, history, value etc) from him.

I don't think him competing against Conan from another network would have been out of bounds. He said he was going to step aside and give Conan the Tonight Show and the role of premiere NBC comedy/variety host, and he would have done that.

What ended up happening was different. He said he would hand NBC over to Conan and then he really didn't.

Adam1115

01-19-2010, 04:03 PM

Here's an article from 2004 that reports on Jay's new contract, for the Tonight Show through 2009 for $27 million a year.

http://www.ew.com/ew/article/0,,605847,00.html

The article says Conan wasn't signed past 2005 yet as of the date of that article.

So we now know that they knew Leno was signed through 2009 when they signed Conan. If they also knew, when they signed Conan, that they were going to do the transition at the end of a TV season, then had to have known, when they signed Conan, that they were going to pay Jay $15.75 million while he sat out for 7 months.

Jay could have done that. Sat out for 7 months, collect $15.75 million of NBC's money, and launch a new show on another network in January if a network would have him. That would have been in fulfilling his commitment to step aside in 2009 to avoid "what happened last time." Instead, he signs on to do a show that both upstages Conan on a nightly basis and kills his ratings lead-in. And now he swoops in to take back the 11:35 slot, instead of, again, sitting on the sidelines and collecting a pile of money and letting Conan do the show he handed off 7 months ago.

I don't get your point. Jay could've sat out for 7 months and then left to go to another network. NBC knew this and DIDN'T WANT HIM TO LEAVE, so they offered him a gig and a lot of money.

If your company hired someone new to replace you and you were going to leave, and they offered you a crapton of money to stay and a new position, wouldn't you take it???

DevdogAZ

01-19-2010, 04:03 PM

He was under contract until the end of 2009. The decision to extend his contract beyond that was his to make.

Is there a law that prevents Jay from paying his staff to sit out while he does? If he's going to go to another network to do a show, he could certainly demand that the new network pay his staff during any layoff (in exchange for less money for himself). Many of them, of not most, would actually have to be working on the new show long before it got on the air anyway.

What happened to his staff between May and September of 2009? I'm assuming somebody paid them.
So you're saying that instead of taking $40+ million from NBC to stay on the air, keep his people employed, and continue doing what he loved, Leno should have turned down that offer, taken money out of his own pocket to pay his staff, and sit on the sidelines for 8-15 months, all in the hopes that they'd eventually find a home on another network?

That sounds completely unrealistic to me, and outside of pure Leno hatred, I can't see how any sane person would expect Leno to make that decision.

aindik

01-19-2010, 04:05 PM

If your company hired someone new to replace you and you were going to leave, and they offered you a crapton of money to stay and a new position, wouldn't you take it???

Did I get on the air publicly and say I was going to leave? If so, I probably would leave. Especially if I was in my 60s, had no kids and had just finished 4 years of banking $27 million a year.

vertigo235

01-19-2010, 04:05 PM

That depends. Did I say five years ago that that's what I was going to do? Am I 60 years old? Did I earn anywhere near $27 million a year for the last 4 years?

He owes it to Conan to do that because that's what he said he was going to do.

You know what.

Maybe we should review EXACTLY what he said he was going to do. Anyone have some references? Quotes?

How about this, your boss just told you that in 5 years they are going to give your job to someone else, now tell us what are YOU going to do in exactly 5 years. Lets check back in in 5 years and see how that goes for you.

I don't think Leno had a choice 5 years ago, he was under contract, I doubt he could even talk to other networks, etc about possible things to do if he wanted to. NBC told him that Conan was going to be taking over the Tonight Show, Jay didn't have ANY say in it, so he said OK, Conan can take over the tonight show. I don't recall Jay saying anything about what he was going to do with himself.

aindik

01-19-2010, 04:09 PM

So you're saying that instead of taking $40+ million from NBC to stay on the air, keep his people employed, and continue doing what he loved, Leno should have turned down that offer, taken money out of his own pocket to pay his staff, and sit on the sidelines for 8-15 months, all in the hopes that they'd eventually find a home on another network?

That sounds completely unrealistic to me, and outside of pure Leno hatred, I can't see how any sane person would expect Leno to make that decision.

No. He should have worked out a deal with another network in advance, ready to jump on the air over there the day his NBC contract expired, with all his staff coming with him.

I think this idea that Leno took his whole staff from the Tonight Show to the Jay Leno Show is a bit of revisionist history. I remember reading at the time that everybody had to apply for their jobs again. I certainly don't see John Melendez on the new show.

DevdogAZ

01-19-2010, 04:09 PM

I don't think him competing against Conan from another network would have been out of bounds. He said he was going to step aside and give Conan the Tonight Show and the role of premiere NBC comedy/variety host, and he would have done that.

What ended up happening was different. He said he would hand NBC over to Conan and then he really didn't.
Now you're letting your bias against Leno allow you to read way too much into the original 2004 announcement. At no time did Leno ever agree that Conan would become NBC's "premiere comedy/variety host," nor did he agree that he would "hand NBC over" to Conan. He simply agreed that he'd leave The Tonight Show and give it to Conan. He did exactly that.

In 2004, nobody could have envisioned that NBC would be in a poor enough financial position, or that the NBC execs would be crazy enough, to predict that NBC would create a new position within the network that upstaged Conan. But that's what happened. And to expect that Leno should have turned it down because of some obligation to Conan is insane.

aindik

01-19-2010, 04:11 PM

You know what.

Maybe we should review EXACTLY what he said he was going to do. Anyone have some references? Quotes?

How about this, your boss just told you that in 5 years they are going to give your job to someone else, now tell us what are YOU going to do in exactly 5 years. Lets check back in in 5 years and see how that goes for you.

I don't think Leno had a choice 5 years ago, he was under contract, I doubt he could even talk to other networks, etc about possible things to do if he wanted to. NBC told him that Conan was going to be taking over the Tonight Show, Jay didn't have ANY say in it, so he said OK, Conan can take over the tonight show. I don't recall Jay saying anything about what he was going to do with himself.

What prohibited him from talking to other networks about a show, so long as that show didn't start until after 2009? Nobody is going to talk to him about 2010 in 2005, but they probably would talk to him about 2010 in 2008.

Turtleboy posted the video from 2004 about what Jay said he was going to do in 5 years.

DevdogAZ

01-19-2010, 04:13 PM

No. He should have worked out a deal with another network in advance, ready to jump on the air over there the day his NBC contract expired, with all his staff coming with him.

I think this idea that Leno took his whole staff from the Tonight Show to the Jay Leno Show is a bit of revisionist history. I remember reading at the time that everybody had to apply for their jobs again. I certainly don't see John Melendez on the new show.

OK, I hate to do this, but :rolleyes:. Really, that's all you've got? Some of his staff didn't get to keep their jobs? Of course there will be minor changes. No reason he should have to keep every single person around, if that person isn't working out. But the fact remains that his show employs 175 people, and they'd have all been out of a job if he didn't accept NBC's offer. Could he have worked something out with another network? Sure. But why would he bother doing that, when NBC was offering him something better than he could have ever hoped for from another network, and something that didn't require him sitting on the sidelines for a year?

aindik

01-19-2010, 04:15 PM

OK, I hate to do this, but :rolleyes:. Really, that's all you've got? Some of his staff didn't get to keep their jobs? Of course there will be minor changes. No reason he should have to keep every single person around, if that person isn't working out. But the fact remains that his show employs 175 people, and they'd have all been out of a job if he didn't accept NBC's offer. Could he have worked something out with another network? Sure. But why would he bother doing that, when NBC was offering him something better than he could have ever hoped for from another network, and something that didn't require him sitting on the sidelines for a year?

Because it's what he said he was going to do.

Amnesia

01-19-2010, 04:19 PM

Because it's what he said he was going to do.
As said before, no it's not. He said he would turn over The Tonight Show. He did that.

DevdogAZ

01-19-2010, 04:22 PM

Because it's what he said he was going to do.
When? Where? You're extrapolating his agreement to leave The Tonight Show into some global prohibition from him continuing to work on NBC after May 2009. Those are two totally different things, and he never agreed he'd stop working, whether at NBC or anywhere else. He only agreed that he'd leave TTS and give it to Conan, which is exactly what he did.

And even if he had made some explicit statement in 2004, since when do we not allow people to change their minds?

Bottom line: Leno owes nothing to Conan. Conan should have no expectations of Leno. NBC simply made decisions that they thought were best for their network and those decisions turned out to be poor. But you've got to have some kind of major block on your logical reasoning ability (hatred of Leno) if you honestly think Leno should have turned down a massive raise in the hopes that he could negotiate a new deal with another network, all to spare Conan's feelings.

timckelley

01-19-2010, 04:23 PM

But didn't Leno owe it to Conan to not torpedo his show by accepting an 11:30 pm deal with NBC?

aindik

01-19-2010, 04:25 PM

As said before, no it's not. He said he would turn over The Tonight Show. He did that.

To take his entire show and move it so that it airs an hour before the Tonight Show every night is to at least partially undo his having given it away.

5thcrewman

01-19-2010, 04:27 PM

Will Howard Stern still get copyright money from Leno for the bits he stole?

He must be paying it since the ripoff is so blatant.

bicker

01-19-2010, 04:30 PM

But didn't Leno owe it to Conan to ...?No.

DancnDude

01-19-2010, 04:30 PM

But didn't Leno owe it to Conan to not torpedo his show by accepting an 11:30 pm deal with NBC?

The way I understand it is that Jay didn't sign on for 11:30 until after Conan decided to leave.

Jay said he'd do 11:30 if Conan agreed to be pushed back 30 minutes (which the network told him was almost certain). Conan didn't agree to that. Conan decides to leave. NBC needs a new host and asks Jay to come back. Jay's under contact so if he wants to work, he's gotta take the job back.

vertigo235

01-19-2010, 04:35 PM

I think it's interesting how people seem to take a serious interest in Jay Leno and Conan Obrien and what is owed to them etc.

Nobody seems to care about the actors, etc when a TV show is canceled. It's all about the show. Much more matter of fact.

So who else is totally pissed about what they are doing to move Lost to Tuesday nights at 9? Can you believe Matthew Fox did that to Jim Belushi?! What a jerk that Matthew Fox is.

Yeeesh

timckelley

01-19-2010, 04:38 PM

I'm confused. Did the network tell Leno at the time of the 11:30 offer for the "Jay Leno" show, that Conan had agreed to the delay of the "Tonight Show"? If the did, then yes, it's NBC's fault for lying to Leno. Though once Leno exposed the lie, he could have retracted his acceptance of the spot. The lie would have been obvious once Conan published his speech about refusing to delay the "Tonight Show".

If the network did not tell Leno that Conan had agreed, then I suppose, like my wife said, Leno could have had a talk with Conan before accepting the deal, since he had already told Conan he was passing the torch.

vertigo235

01-19-2010, 04:42 PM

If the network did not tell Leno that Conan had agreed, then I suppose, like my wife said, Leno could have had a talk with Conan before accepting the deal, since he had already told Conan he was passing the torch.

So Leno works for Conan? They are best pals?

Come on, Leno said he was "passing the torch" because he had no choice, it wasn't HIS decision. He simply said it because he was putting on a good face for the audience.

Should he have stood up on his desk and said, "This is all BS! I am being screwed out of my job and I will spend the next 5 years being a complete jerk!"

DevdogAZ

01-19-2010, 04:55 PM

But didn't Leno owe it to Conan to not torpedo his show by accepting an 11:30 pm deal with NBC?
No. Nothing owed to Conan.
I'm confused. Did the network tell Leno at the time of the 11:30 offer for the "Jay Leno" show, that Conan had agreed to the delay of the "Tonight Show"? If the did, then yes, it's NBC's fault for lying to Leno. Though once Leno exposed the lie, he could have retracted his acceptance of the spot. The lie would have been obvious once Conan published his speech about refusing to delay the "Tonight Show".

If the network did not tell Leno that Conan had agreed, then I suppose, like my wife said, Leno could have had a talk with Conan before accepting the deal, since he had already told Conan he was passing the torch.
NBC cancelled The Jay Leno Show at 10 pm and asked Leno if he'd agree to do a half hour at 11:35, bumping back Conan's show by 30 minutes. Leno asked if Conan would be OK with this, and the NBC execs assured him that Conan would agree to it.

FF a couple of days and Conan doesn't agree to it. Leno looks like a jerk. But the fact is that the network asked Leno to move his show there, and either he agrees and continues to get paid and keep people employed, or he resists and then there is a major contract dispute between Leno and NBC. Why would Leno want to be off the air and involved in a contract dispute when he could be on the air telling jokes and getting paid instead?

JYoung

01-19-2010, 04:58 PM

I think this idea that Leno took his whole staff from the Tonight Show to the Jay Leno Show is a bit of revisionist history. I remember reading at the time that everybody had to apply for their jobs again. I certainly don't see John Melendez on the new show.

Melendez is currently a staff writer on "The Jay Leno Show (http://us.imdb.com/name/nm0577579/)

But didn't Leno owe it to Conan to not torpedo his show by accepting an 11:30 pm deal with NBC?

According to Leno, he was told by NBC that O'Brien was ok with it.

aindik

01-19-2010, 05:00 PM

Melendez is currently a staff writer on "The Jay Leno Show (http://us.imdb.com/name/nm0577579/)

According to Leno, he was told by NBC that O'Brien was ok with it.

He was told by NBC that NBC thought Conan would agree to it. That's not the same thing as being told he did agree with it, or that he would be or was OK with it.

stalemate

01-19-2010, 05:02 PM

This Friday, Jan. 22. NBC's original plan was to keep the status quo until the Winter Olympics started, or until Feb. 12. He was already planning to be off the air the week of Jan 25, so it didn't really make sense for them all to come back for two weeks, so they chose Jan. 22 to end it all.Thanks. It makes me sad. I did a photo a day blog last year and one of my pics of the day was Leno's last night on the tonight show. Whoops, not so fast. :)

Turtleboy

01-19-2010, 05:07 PM

Once again, Letterman was great last night. He hates Jay so much.

http://www.cbs.com/late_night/late_show/video/?pid=fEGKBXV9Lkwb5MGNaSOepd1N0RD5GsY1&nrd=1

timckelley

01-19-2010, 05:09 PM

JYoung

01-19-2010, 05:17 PM

He was told by NBC that NBC thought Conan would agree to it. That's not the same thing as being told he did agree with it, or that he would be or was OK with it.

Rewatching that Leno's segment, his recollection was "Yes, he'll go for it, almost guaranteed he will".

On the other hand, Leno is being told by his bosses that this is what they want to do.
Exactly why should he say "No"?

DevdogAZ

01-19-2010, 05:23 PM

Jeff Zucker was on Charlie Rose last night. Watch it here (http://www.charlierose.com/view/interview/10824).

Fascinating interview, regardless which side you take in this fight.

DevdogAZ

01-19-2010, 05:32 PM

Well then once Conan voiced his displeasure, I supposed Leno could have outted NBC as a bunch of liars who told them Conan was in agreement, and that his acceptance of the deal was based on this lie.

OTOH, I'm just now thinking: Did Leno's contract with the "Jay Leno" bind him to doing the show, even if the show were moved to 11:30? If so, then I guess the whole thing was out of Leno's hands from the start to the finish. NBC wouldn't have needed his okay to do the deal.
According to reports, Leno's contract guaranteed him two years at the 10 pm timeslot. Therefore, if NBC wants to move him to 11:35, Leno has to agree with it or NBC is in breach of that guarantee.

Leno had two choices here:
1. He could either agree to the move and keep himself and his staff working.
2. He could refuse the move and then there is a contract dispute between him and NBC, where they refuse to pay his penalty and Leno wants to work, all the while, the staff is unemployed.

Seems like a pretty obvious choice to me.

JYoung

01-19-2010, 05:36 PM

Once again, Letterman was great last night. He hates Jay so much.

http://www.cbs.com/late_night/late_show/video/?pid=fEGKBXV9Lkwb5MGNaSOepd1N0RD5GsY1&nrd=1

While I agree that was very funny, Letterman isn't exactly on the high ground here himself.

Don't forget that the reason he went to CBS was because NBC wouldn't boot a (somewhat) struggling Leno from the Tonight Show in 1992 and give it to him.

marksman

01-19-2010, 05:52 PM

netringer

01-19-2010, 05:56 PM

Will Howard Stern still get copyright money from Leno for the bits he stole?

He must be paying it since the ripoff is so blatant.

For Stern to complain about stealing from him has to be in the dictionary under "irony," although his usual MO is to claim the guy he ripped off stole it from him.

Item: Does Stern still use a cheap Radio Shack bullhorn in the studio? Stern stole that from Steve Dahl.

steve614

01-19-2010, 05:56 PM

Jeff Zucker was on Charlie Rose last night. Watch it here (http://www.charlierose.com/view/interview/10824).

Fascinating interview, regardless which side you take in this fight.

I saw this last night and finally put name to face.
He doesn't look like someone who should be in charge of ''entertainment''.
No wonder NBC is in the toilet.

DevdogAZ

01-19-2010, 05:58 PM

By accident I just caught a story by the local NBC channel on the issue, and they said that latest word on Conan's negotiating leaving is he is trying to get severance for all his staff... but that seems to be the current sticking point.
Good for Conan. I expected he'd be able to work something out where his staff doesn't get left out in the cold, and I applaud him for sticking to his guns to make sure those people get taken care of.

Adam1115

01-19-2010, 06:06 PM

Did I get on the air publicly and say I was going to leave? If so, I probably would leave. Especially if I was in my 60s, had no kids and had just finished 4 years of banking $27 million a year.

Say you did. Say you publicly said "I'm going to going to leave my job title for the good of the company." Then you left your job and told your boss you were going to get a job for a competitor.

And he said "You know what? We don't want you to leave. How about if we give you a huge raise and give you a new job."

What would be wrong with taking it?

Then if the guy that took your job sucked at it and he came back and said "It's not working out with your replacement, we want you back at your old job or we'll have to let you go." Why wouldn't you take your job back?

What does age or how much he makes have to do with anything? So what, he's 60 and made a lot of money. He's got a marketable skill. He should just retire even if he doesn't want to for the good of late night TV? He just wants to work. What's wrong with that? It's NBC who wants to either keep him or have him crawl into a hole and never be on TV again.

01-19-2010, 06:07 PM

He was told by NBC that NBC thought Conan would agree to it. That's not the same thing as being told he did agree with it, or that he would be or was OK with it.

You really do seem to be holding Leno to an unrealistically high standard that I'm not sure you'd hold someone to in everyday life. Riddle me this: Isn't it just as wrong that five years ago, when Conan was offered the Tonight Show in 2009, he didn't say "Wait a second, you guys just signed Jay Leno to a five year deal, which he might never have signed if he knew you were gonna do this. I'm going to decline your offer because it's unfair to Jay, who's been doing really well for you guys." Of course we wouldn't expect Conan to turn down his shot at the Tonight Show out of respect for Jay, even though Leno had been giving him great lead in numbers that probably didn't hurt his eventual success. Why the heck should Jay Leno be concerned with Conan's well being? There's two words in show business, and neither of them are "personal."

inaka

01-19-2010, 07:22 PM

Conan & Leno settle the score...LOL

http://www.funnyordie.com/videos/38406562d8/conan-rally-late-night-street-fight

busyba

01-19-2010, 07:22 PM

While I agree that was very funny, Letterman isn't exactly on the high ground here himself.

Don't forget that the reason he went to CBS was because NBC wouldn't boot a (somewhat) struggling Leno from the Tonight Show in 1992 and give it to him.

IIRC, he went to CBS because NBC gave the show to Leno in the first place.

inaka

01-19-2010, 07:45 PM

No. Nothing owed to Conan.

NBC cancelled The Jay Leno Show at 10 pm and asked Leno if he'd agree to do a half hour at 11:35, bumping back Conan's show by 30 minutes. Leno asked if Conan would be OK with this, and the NBC execs assured him that Conan would agree to it.

This sounds like total b.s. from Leno.

Jay was going back to 11:35pm regardless of whether Conan agreed to it or not. If Conan's approval was some sort of mitigating factor, Leno could have called Conan directly before agreeing to the deal, or waited until Conan was on board before agreeing to the deal. It's pretty clear that Leno is spinning this into the typical "aww shucks I'm caught in the middle" scenario when he's not.

When NBC execs pitched the idea to Leno to move back to 11:35pm, the conversation probably went more along the lines of:

Leno: "How's Conan taking it...is he pissed?"

NBC: "He's not happy, but we're working on it. So are you in?"

Leno: (in his squeaky mouse voice) "Yeah, sure guys."

Only an idiot would assume that Conan would have no problem and accept moving an institution like The Tonight Show to a new time slot that isn't even "tonight" at all.

JYoung

01-19-2010, 07:53 PM

IIRC, he went to CBS because NBC gave the show to Leno in the first place.

Mark Evanier's recollection (http://www.newsfromme.com/archives/2010_01_17.html#018381).

Later, after Carson was out and Leno was in for a while, there was another big decision to be made. David Letterman wanted The Tonight Show and threatened to leave NBC if they didn't shove Jay aside and turn it over. The network actually made a kind of half-assed decision to do that but Dave didn't accept their terms and instead went to CBS. Was it a mistake for them to not kick Leno out then, even though his ratings were quite decent, and bring in Dave? I don't think so. Imagine this scenario: They boot Jay and that leads to a situation not unlike what we're currently seeing with Conan, with people rallying behind a guy who seems to have been unfairly fired, just because someone else wants to be the star of The Tonight Show.

This sounds like total b.s. from Leno.

Jay was going back to 11:35pm regardless of whether Conan agreed to it or not. If Conan's approval was some sort of mitigating factor, Leno could have called Conan directly before agreeing to the deal, or waited until Conan was on board before agreeing to the deal. It's pretty clear that Leno is spinning this into the typical "aww shucks I'm caught in the middle" scenario when he's not.

When NBC execs pitched the idea to Leno to move back to 11:35pm, the conversation probably went more along the lines of:

Leno: "How's Conan taking it...is he pissed?"

NBC: "He's not happy, but we're working on it. So are you in?"

Leno: (in his squeaky mouse voice) "Yeah, sure guys."

Only an idiot would assume that Conan would have no problem and accept moving an institution like The Tonight Show to a new time slot that isn't even "tonight" at all.

Even if this were the case, if your boss comes to you and says "Chris doesn't seem to be able to handle your old shift, we want you to go back to it", do you tell your boss "not until I check with Chris first?"

I doubt it.

Amnesia

01-19-2010, 07:57 PM

Is there a law that prevents Jay from paying his staff to sit out while he does? If he's going to go to another network to do a show, he could certainly demand that the new network pay his staff during any layoff (in exchange for less money for himself).The latest word (http://www.tvsquad.com/2010/01/19/conan-obrien-talks-stall-over-staff-buyout/) is that Conan's separation talks have bogged down over his demand that NBC pay his staff $12M in severance.

However, from your above comment, I must assume that you think that Conan should pay his staff out of his own large separation fee, correct?

inaka

01-19-2010, 08:10 PM

Even if this were the case, if your boss comes to you and says "Chris doesn't seem to be able to handle your old shift, we want you to go back to it", do you tell your boss "not until I check with Chris first?"

I doubt it.
Leno has said many times that he has never spent a dime of his tonight show salary. The guy still does Vegas stand up and tours like crazy. So equating this to a real world situation is highly dubious. Most of us actually need the money we work for daily.

If money wasn't even the object, and Leno handed over something he considered the crown jewel of a television franchise in 2009 (like Leno said in 2004 when he announced Conan was taking over in 5 years), I think the better question is how could Leno even allow NBC to move the Tonight Show at all until 12:05am. He said it himself in 2004 that The Tonight Show was an institution. For him to sit back and agree to a scenario where NBC execs would damage the pinnacle of late night franchises, that shows this isn't just Mr. "aww shucks" Leno being a good guy as he tries to portray.

Amnesia

01-19-2010, 08:13 PM

For him to sit back and agree to a scenario where NBC execs would damage the pinnacle of late night franchises, that shows this isn't just Mr. "aww shucks" Leno being a good guy as he tries to portray.Are you talking about NBC giving the show to Conan in the first place or their proposal to push it back to 12:05 on the east coast?

I think it's unclear that Leno considered either of those things as damaging to The Tonight Show...

IJustLikeTivo

01-19-2010, 08:13 PM

By accident I just caught a story by the local NBC channel on the issue, and they said that latest word on Conan's negotiating leaving is he is trying to get severance for all his staff... but that seems to be the current sticking point.

Leno said he has 175 people working. If Conan is similar 40 million split 175 ways is pretty good severance. Last time I was laid off, I got , lemee see now. Oh yeah, Squat.

DevdogAZ

01-19-2010, 08:14 PM

IIRC, he went to CBS because NBC gave the show to Leno in the first place.
Leno got The Tonight Show in 1992. In 1993, when Letterman's contract for Late Night was up, he tried to get NBC to fire Leno and give the show to Letterman. NBC refused, Letterman went to CBS and the rest is history.
This sounds like total b.s. from Leno.

Jay was going back to 11:35pm regardless of whether Conan agreed to it or not. If Conan's approval was some sort of mitigating factor, Leno could have called Conan directly before agreeing to the deal, or waited until Conan was on board before agreeing to the deal. It's pretty clear that Leno is spinning this into the typical "aww shucks I'm caught in the middle" scenario when he's not.

When NBC execs pitched the idea to Leno to move back to 11:35pm, the conversation probably went more along the lines of:

Leno: "How's Conan taking it...is he pissed?"

NBC: "He's not happy, but we're working on it. So are you in?"

Leno: (in his squeaky mouse voice) "Yeah, sure guys."

Only an idiot would assume that Conan would have no problem and accept moving an institution like The Tonight Show to a new time slot that isn't even "tonight" at all.
I'm sure there was some Leno spin in there. I'm sure he was trying to make himself not look like the bad guy. But the truth of the matter is that whatever Jay's response was to NBC's request for him to move to 11:35, it was going to turn out the same. NBC was convinced that moving Leno back to 11:35 and Conan to 12:05 was a good plan. They thought Conan would be able to build a stronger following by having Leno as a direct lead in, and that this would be a win-win for everyone. Whether Leno really believed that Conan was on board, or whether the exec who told that to Leno really believed it doesn't really matter.

NBC had Leno and Conan under contract. Of the two, Leno had proven to get better ratings at 11:35. Therefore, if forced to choose between the two, NBC was going to choose Leno. They wanted to try and keep both on the air, but if they could only keep one, they decided it should be Leno. So whether Jay agreed, or said I'm going to wait for Conan to approve it, or simply said no - the result would have ended up the same. NBC would have eventually arrived at the same decision, and Leno's desire to work and keep his staff employed would have trumped any obligation he felt not to step on Conan's toes.

IJustLikeTivo

01-19-2010, 08:15 PM

Then if the guy that took your job sucked at it and he came back and said "It's not working out with your replacement, we want you back at your old job or we'll have to let you go." Why wouldn't you take your job back?

Which has happened to me. I told them I would consult at 3X my previous rate and they took it.

inaka

01-19-2010, 08:18 PM

Are you talking about NBC giving the show to Conan in the first place or their proposal to push it back to 12:05 on the east coast?

Pushing the Tonight Show to after midnight, not giving it to Conan in the first place.

IJustLikeTivo

01-19-2010, 08:18 PM

IIRC, he went to CBS because NBC gave the show to Leno in the first place.

No, for a while they were back to back. Dave walked later when they were renegotiating his deal.

JYoung

01-19-2010, 08:21 PM

Leno has said many times that he has never spent a dime of his tonight show salary. The guy still does Vegas stand up and tours like crazy. So equating this to a real world situation is highly dubious. Most of us actually need the money we work for daily.

While Leno doesn't need to work for the money (I figure he's got to have at least 100 million in the bank), he appears to have a need to work for his own personal reasons.
I suspect that he goes crazy if he isn't working so while he may not have to same need for money, he still has a need to work. I've met (and worked with) people like that before.

If money wasn't even the object, and Leno handed over something he considered the crown jewel of a television franchise in 2009 (like Leno said in 2004 when he announced Conan was taking over in 5 years), I think the better question is how could Leno even allow NBC to move the Tonight Show at all until 12:05am. He said it himself in 2004 that The Tonight Show was an institution. For him to sit back and agree to a scenario where NBC execs would damage the pinnacle of late night franchises, that shows this isn't just Mr. "aww shucks" Leno being a good guy as he tries to portray.

Or he's just being a good employee.
He can call the Tonight Show an institution but since NBC owns it and he doesn't, they can do whatever they want with it.

Leno wants to work and NBC is giving him a job. Sure, they're screwing O'Brien too but that's entirely on NBC.

And it's not like O'Brien's going to be forced into the poorhouse either.

Amnesia

01-19-2010, 08:22 PM

Pushing the Tonight Show to after midnight, not giving it to Conan in the first place.Conan clearly thought that would be damaging and NBC (pretty) clearly did not.

I'm not sure why you seem to assume that Jay felt it would be damaging...

inaka

01-19-2010, 08:28 PM

Whether Leno really believed that Conan was on board, or whether the exec who told that to Leno really believed it doesn't really matter.

NBC had Leno and Conan under contract. Of the two, Leno had proven to get better ratings at 11:35.

I think it definitely matters whether Conan was on-board or not. If he's not it changes the options and scenarios completely. It's smart business because now Leno may be going up against Conan on Fox in the same time slot.

I also think that's false to say how Leno had proven ratings at 11:35pm. Leno was getting beaten daily in the ratings by Letterman until the infamous Hugh Grant appearance on Leno. Leno started on hosting The Tonight Show on May 25, 1992. Hugh Grant appeared on The Tonight Show on July 10, 1995. Three years later.

On top of that, Leno's dud of a primetime show had horrible ratings, and was a poor lead-in to local news, resulting in a ratings drops for local affiliates. This is turn also resulted in a poor lead-in for Conan's Tonight Show.

The fact is that it took time for Leno to become number one. He wasn't number one from the start. He was given three years to build his brand. Conan wasn't given anything close to that and Leno's primetime disaster of a show didn't help.

inaka

01-19-2010, 08:36 PM

Conan clearly thought that would be damaging and NBC (pretty) clearly did not.

I'm not sure why you seem to assume that Jay felt it would be damaging...
Jay didn't. That's the issue. In 2004, Jay spoke of The Tonight Show as if it was the crown jewel of late night institutions of television. It was. Johnny Carson was an icon, and the show he helped craft was an American institution, etc.

For someone like Jay to participate in a scenario where this iconic television show would be dramatically changed (pushing it until the next am after midnight), all so he could have a 30 min show in front of Conan, seems odd that he would agree to that at face value knowing The Tonight Show would no longer ever be the same. As you said, Conan clearly thought that this would be damaging to The Tonight Show franchise, but Jay signed on to the deal without even confirming if the actual host of The Tonight Show was on board with the plan.

DevdogAZ

01-19-2010, 08:41 PM

I think it definitely matters whether Conan was on-board or not. If he's not it changes the options and scenarios completely. It's smart business because now Leno may be going up against Conan on Fox in the same time slot.

I also think that's false to say how Leno had proven ratings at 11:35pm. Leno was getting beaten daily in the ratings by Letterman until the infamous Hugh Grant appearance on Leno. Leno started on hosting The Tonight Show on May 25, 1992. Hugh Grant appeared on The Tonight Show on July 10, 1995. Three years later.

On top of that, Leno's dud of a primetime show had horrible ratings, and was a poor lead-in to local news, resulting in a ratings drops for local affiliates. This is turn also resulted in a poor lead-in for Conan's Tonight Show.

The fact is that it took time for Leno to become number one. He wasn't number one from the start. He was given three years to build his brand. Conan wasn't given anything close to that and Leno's primetime disaster of a show didn't help.
You're preaching to the choir. Of course it would have made more sense to keep Conan on the air and see if he could build an audience, just like Leno was allowed to do in the 90s. Unfortunately, NBC's poor decisions left them with two hosts under contract and Conan's refusal to allow The Tonight Show to move back by 30 minutes left NBC with only one timeslot in which to put those two hosts. Faced with that situation, NBC obviously felt that keeping Leno and letting Conan go was the right move from a business standpoint.

There are arguments to be made for and against both hosts. I'm sure the decision wasn't easy. But unfortunately for Conan, he came up on the short end of that list of pros and cons, and now he's going to be out and looking for a new job.

DevdogAZ

01-19-2010, 08:49 PM

Jay didn't. That's the issue. In 2004, Jay spoke of The Tonight Show as if it was the crown jewel of late night institutions of television. It was. Johnny Carson was an icon, and the show he helped craft was an American institution, etc.

For someone like Jay to participate in a scenario where this iconic television show would be dramatically changed (pushing it until the next am after midnight), all so he could have a 30 min show in front of Conan, seems odd that he would agree to that at face value knowing The Tonight Show would no longer ever be the same. As you said, Conan clearly thought that this would be damaging to The Tonight Show franchise, but Jay signed on to the deal without even confirming if the actual host of The Tonight Show was on board with the plan.
Once again, you're not understanding the contractual issues at play. Leno was under contract to NBC. NBC wasn't about to pay him a reported $80 million to go away. Leno wasn't going to accept a show at 12:35, following Conan. Therefore, NBC really didn't have much choice. They either have to fire Conan and give TTS back to Leno, or they have to try a compromise to keep both hosts on the air.

At that point, they're not worried about damaging any legacy. In the grand scheme of things, this would be pretty minor, since it would likely only last 18 months (until Leno's guaranteed two years was up). Also, it's entirely possible that with Leno having a condensed show, he could deliver a bigger audience to Conan, thus strengthening Conan's numbers for fall 2011 when Conan would likely move back to 11:35.

However, as we all know, Conan refused to accept the compromise, and that forced NBC to choose one or the other. NBC chose Leno. Whether Leno accepted the deal before or after Conan expressed his displeasure, it would have worked out this way no matter what, because as of right now, the execs at NBC who are making this decision feel that Leno can make the network more money at 11:35 than Conan can. That's the bottom line.

JYoung

01-19-2010, 08:58 PM

I also think that's false to say how Leno had proven ratings at 11:35pm. Leno was getting beaten daily in the ratings by Letterman until the infamous Hugh Grant appearance on Leno. Leno started on hosting The Tonight Show on May 25, 1992. Hugh Grant appeared on The Tonight Show on July 10, 1995. Three years later.

Letterman started on CBS on August 30, 1993.
While Leno's ratings weren't the stellar Carson ratings, he was still pummeling Arsenio Hall and he hadn't lost 40-50% of Carson's audience like O'Brien did this summer.
Letterman did beat him for two years but once Leno overtook him, he remained on top unti May of 2009.

On top of that, Leno's dud of a primetime show had horrible ratings, and was a poor lead-in to local news, resulting in a ratings drops for local affiliates. This is turn also resulted in a poor lead-in for Conan's Tonight Show.

Unfortunately, O'Brien's ratings were poor through the summer before Leno's 10 PM show came on the air.
Certainly, Leno's lack of lead in didn't help but the ratings damage was already done before Leno arrived back on the air.

The fact is that it took time for Leno to become number one. He wasn't number one from the start. He was given three years to build his brand. Conan wasn't given anything close to that and Leno's primetime disaster of a show didn't help.
I absolutely agree that Leno was given more time and it's unfair to O'Brien to yank him at this point. It is possible that O'Brien could have grown the audience.
The problem, Leno's already proven he can win the 11:30 time slot so that's who NBC decided to back.

If it were up to me, I'd probably give Leno some hours on Friday and/or Saturday night and leave O'Brien on the Tonight Show.
But I'm not Jeff Zucker and he won't take my calls.

Jay didn't. That's the issue. In 2004, Jay spoke of The Tonight Show as if it was the crown jewel of late night institutions of television. It was. Johnny Carson was an icon, and the show he helped craft was an American institution, etc.

For someone like Jay to participate in a scenario where this iconic television show would be dramatically changed (pushing it until the next am after midnight), all so he could have a 30 min show in front of Conan, seems odd that he would agree to that at face value knowing The Tonight Show would no longer ever be the same. As you said, Conan clearly thought that this would be damaging to The Tonight Show franchise, but Jay signed on to the deal without even confirming if the actual host of The Tonight Show was on board with the plan.

Do you honestly believe that O'Brien walked "to protect the Institution of the Tonight Show"?
No, he walked because he just got kicked in the face by NBC (and I can't say I blame him).

None of this is about protecting the "Institution of the Tonight Show". It's a story about how two men basically want the same (or similar) job and the crappy way their employer is handling the whole situation.

smak

01-19-2010, 09:13 PM

Mark Evanier's recollection (http://www.newsfromme.com/archives/2010_01_17.html#018381).

Even if this were the case, if your boss comes to you and says "Chris doesn't seem to be able to handle your old shift, we want you to go back to it", do you tell your boss "not until I check with Chris first?"

I doubt it.

That's not the reason they wanted to stick Leno at 11:35. It's because he was under contract and didn't have any place to put him.

-smak-

TiVo'Brien

01-19-2010, 09:20 PM

I wonder if the rumored $40 million payoff goes to Conan personally, or to Conaco Productions?

JYoung

01-19-2010, 09:35 PM

That's not the reason they wanted to stick Leno at 11:35. It's because he was under contract and didn't have any place to put him.

-smak-

It's not the only reason.
They also want him there because he delivered better ratings than O'Brien in the past.
And they're scared to death that Leno would go to another network and pummel O'Brien in the ratings.

morac

01-19-2010, 10:17 PM

Turtleboy

01-19-2010, 10:18 PM

marksman

01-19-2010, 10:24 PM

Conan clearly thought that would be damaging and NBC (pretty) clearly did not.

I'm not sure why you seem to assume that Jay felt it would be damaging...

That is interesting. I wonder what Jay would have said if they reversed the offer and gave him the hour after the half hour.

I suspect Jay might have done it. I don't think he had the same issues with the sanctity of the Tonight Show as Conan proclaimed. I am not sure Conan does either, I think he was pretty pissed off and upset in general at that time.

netringer

01-19-2010, 11:00 PM

Mark Evanier's recollection (http://www.newsfromme.com/archives/2010_01_17.html#018381).

....

Per "The Late Shift" The "half-assed offer" NBC gave Dave was he would have the Tonight Show after Jay had it for 2(?) years. Peter Lassaly wisely advised Dave to turn the deal down. They suspected that NBC could wait for Jay to get great numbers and then refuse to give Dave the show. When Dave called Johnny he said if it was him, he'd walk.

inaka

01-19-2010, 11:05 PM

In the long run, the only winner is Jay.

Everyone is assuming that Jay will pick right back up and obtain the ratings he had when he left The Tonight Show. I have a feeling this won't happen, after the initial week he comes back to the show and the novelty wears off.

It'll be interesting to see how this plays out.

terpfan1980

01-19-2010, 11:15 PM

If Conan was smart, he would have taken the 12:05 AM shot. Jay isn't a spring chicken. It might take another 5 years, but at some point he will retire. Then Conan could have been moved back to 11:35 PM.

At this point Conan has nothing and when Jay retires, NBC has nothing. In the long short run, the only winner is Jay.

FYP, at least from what I'm guessing will happen....

In the short run Jay may win for a bit, but in the long run a lot is going to depend up on Conan does and/or where he goes. If he goes to FOX and gets a show at 11pm (10pm central) then he may yet wind up doing much better than some people think.

NBC may win in the short run too, but in a very short-sighted way. They had the foresight about 5 years ago to recognize that Jay was getting older as was his audience. They saw Conan as younger, hipper and they bet that over those years Jay Leno would lose some audience. He didn't lose as much as they thought, but he did have and continues to have (if he can keep it) an audience that is older and somewhat less desirable in the key demographics.

If Leno's audience doesn't return, or doesn't return in the numbers that NBC hopes for than all NBC will have done is put a band-aid on their current late night problem. They lost a lot of audience for The Tonite Show and they blame Conan for that, but they have to look in the mirror too.

Where Conan lands can make a heck of lot of difference and, not to be morbid or predict health problems or the like, if there were to be any sort of health issues for Leno that pushed him off the air for an extended period he could lose more of his audience while some unproven talent comes in and hosts the show while he's away.

Conan is still younger, he still attracts a younger audience, and if the FOX schedule is reasonably strong (assuming he went there) he could potentially do well and make things really interesting in the longer term.

marksman

01-20-2010, 12:07 AM

Dave Letterman: "Chemical Zucker"

smak

01-20-2010, 12:35 AM

smak

01-20-2010, 12:42 AM

NBC may win in the short run too, but in a very short-sighted way. They had the foresight about 5 years ago to recognize that Jay was getting older as was his audience. They saw Conan as younger, hipper and they bet that over those years Jay Leno would lose some audience. He didn't lose as much as they thought, but he did have and continues to have (if he can keep it) an audience that is older and somewhat less desirable in the key demographics.

You are correct. I don't know how anybody could think this is good for the long run. Replacing a 46 year old with a guy who's 60 in 2 months is good for the long run how?

And we're not even factoring in Conan doing another show at 11:35.

Now Conan could be in 3rd place, but despite bragging rights that's less viewers for everybody, and less money.

Nobody wins with a 3rd show at 11:35.

And Conan has a much better chance of getting that 3rd show than Jay would have.

-smak-

Seattle

01-20-2010, 12:58 AM

Here is a video that explains the whole Leno/Conan issue.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lJ9m1an-pQ8

murgatroyd

01-20-2010, 01:27 AM

Everyone is assuming that Jay will pick right back up and obtain the ratings he had when he left The Tonight Show. I have a feeling this won't happen, after the initial week he comes back to the show and the novelty wears off.

It'll be interesting to see how this plays out.

I won't be back.

Due to the wonders of TiVo, I'm watching Craig Ferguson. I don't really care about watching Leno again.

Jan

JYoung

01-20-2010, 01:32 AM

MickeS

01-20-2010, 01:47 AM

Conan has nothing except for $40 million and the chance to go anywhere at anytime.

What makes you think that? He's not exactly a ratings powerhouse - he's likely be 3rd if up against Jay and Dave, and right now I don't really see a lot of channels clamoring for more late night talk shows.

gastrof

01-20-2010, 01:48 AM

JYoung

01-20-2010, 02:00 AM

Per "The Late Shift" The "half-assed offer" NBC gave Dave was he would have the Tonight Show after Jay had it for 2(?) years. Peter Lassaly wisely advised Dave to turn the deal down. They suspected that NBC could wait for Jay to get great numbers and then refuse to give Dave the show. When Dave called Johnny he said if it was him, he'd walk.

(Slight derailment here)
That brings up another thought.
It's been generally accepted that Carson felt that Letterman should have gotten the Tonight Show instead of Leno.

If Carson really felt that way, why didn't he crush the 1991 Leno deal in the first place?

smak

01-20-2010, 02:30 AM

What makes you think that? He's not exactly a ratings powerhouse - he's likely be 3rd if up against Jay and Dave, and right now I don't really see a lot of channels clamoring for more late night talk shows.

Late night shows are worth hundreds of millions to networks. That's why Leno & Letterman makes what they make, 25-30 million a year? More I think.

But I more meant Conan is free to do what he wants with no non-compete clause.

-smak-

smak

01-20-2010, 04:31 AM

Once again, Letterman was great last night. He hates Jay so much.

http://www.cbs.com/late_night/late_show/video/?pid=fEGKBXV9Lkwb5MGNaSOepd1N0RD5GsY1&nrd=1

The funniest part to me is that Dave keeps on calling Jay's 10pm show a variety show over and over again, which I think is a big insult for Dave, but kind of an unnoticable one.

-smak-

Turtleboy

01-20-2010, 07:37 AM

The funniest part to me is that Dave keeps on calling Jay's 10pm show a variety show over and over again, which I think is a big insult for Dave, but kind of an unnoticable one.

-smak-

Yes, I noticed that. Sonny and Cher did a variety show.

Amnesia

01-20-2010, 07:53 AM

I think Jay's goal is to be on the air longer than Johnny, which is 11 years.Johnny was the host for 30 years (1962-1992).

Turtleboy

01-20-2010, 08:01 AM

Johnny was the host for 30 years (1962-1992).

And Jay has been host for 19 years. 19 + 11 = 30. Sorry, if I was unclear, I meant 11 more years.

IndyJones1023

01-20-2010, 08:06 AM

I think Jay's goal is to be on the air longer than Johnny, which is 11 years.

Johnny hosted the Tonight Show a lot longer than 11 years.

Turtleboy

01-20-2010, 08:37 AM

Johnny hosted the Tonight Show a lot longer than 11 years.

Ah. My mistake.

Amnesia

01-20-2010, 09:16 AM

And Jay has been host for 19 years.Jay was the host for 17 years (1992-2009).

Turtleboy

01-20-2010, 09:18 AM

Sigh.

netringer

01-20-2010, 09:38 AM

(Slight derailment here)
That brings up another thought.
It's been generally accepted that Carson felt that Letterman should have gotten the Tonight Show instead of Leno.

If Carson really felt that way, why didn't he crush the 1991 Leno deal in the first place?

It's not on the historical record that Johnny stepped in. There was an NBC west coast vs. east coast battle, but the west coast was the Jay Leno team. You know we don't even hear that Johnny had much to do with Jay being the permanent guest host. I remember that Fred DeCordova and NBC were behind that.

DevdogAZ

01-20-2010, 11:35 AM

While I think the arrangement would have STUNK, I can't help but wonder if maybe Conan should have taken the 12:05 show.

How many more years will Jay be wanting to stay on the air, especially with a 30 minute show? Eventually, that 30 minute show between 11:35 and 12:05 would have been gone.

There's no way that, at that point, NBC wouldn't have moved the Tonight Show back to 11:35.

Wouldn't the only real loser have been Carson Daly, since I'm guessing his show would have been dumped because of Leno being on the earlier end with a new 30 min show?
Unless the new setup was getting blockbuster ratings, I suspect it would have only lasted until Leno's two year on-air guarantee was up (approx. 18 more months). I can see why Conan didn't accept it, as it was definitely a slap in the face, but stepping back and considering all the options, it probably would have been the best thing for him.

DevdogAZ

01-20-2010, 11:37 AM

To answer the previous question about whether it's official that this Friday is Conan's last show, he opened his show on Tuesday night by saying, "Hi, I'm Conan O'Brien and I'm three days away from the biggest drinking binge the world has ever seen." And then Andy made some comment about, "Why not? You've got nothing else planned." So I think it's pretty clear that this Friday is the end, whether it's been officially announced or not.

MickeS

01-20-2010, 11:50 AM

Unless the new setup was getting blockbuster ratings, I suspect it would have only lasted until Leno's two year on-air guarantee was up (approx. 18 more months). I can see why Conan didn't accept it, as it was definitely a slap in the face, but stepping back and considering all the options, it probably would have been the best thing for him.

It's not on the historical record that Johnny stepped in. There was an NBC west coast vs. east coast battle, but the west coast was the Jay Leno team. You knwow we don't even hear that Johnny had much to do with Jay being the permanent guest host. I remember that Fred DeCordova and NBC were behind that.

Maybe Carson simply was tired of the whole thing and didn't give a damn.

DevdogAZ

01-20-2010, 11:55 AM

Maybe Carson simply was tired of the whole thing and didn't give a damn.
:confused: Huh? What did my post have to do with Carson? I was talking about the setup where Leno would do a 30 minute show and Conan would then do The Tonight Show at 12:05. I'm guessing that would have been a temporary schedule, just until NBC fulfilled their two-year on-air guarantee to Leno.

JYoung

01-20-2010, 12:01 PM

It's not on the historical record that Johnny stepped in. There was an NBC west coast vs. east coast battle, but the west coast was the Jay Leno team. You knwow we don't even hear that Johnny had much to do with Jay being the permanent guest host. I remember that Fred DeCordova and NBC were behind that.

Yeah, my point is he didn't and he could have.

MickeS

01-20-2010, 12:46 PM

:confused: Huh? What did my post have to do with Carson? I was talking about the setup where Leno would do a 30 minute show and Conan would then do The Tonight Show at 12:05. I'm guessing that would have been a temporary schedule, just until NBC fulfilled their two-year on-air guarantee to Leno.

Sorry, quoted the wrong post. I meant to quote netringer's post right above yours.

DevdogAZ

01-20-2010, 12:50 PM

Sorry, quoted the wrong post. I meant to quote netringer's post right above yours.
Ah, gotcha. Much less confusing now. ;)

DevdogAZ

01-20-2010, 02:47 PM

According to today's NY Post (http://www.nypost.com/p/news/national/conan_leap_for_joy_Xem23v4HiRTwOPWPs3HKiL#ixzz0dA8QSiFI), NBC's decision on which host to keep was made easier because of their contracts.
The decision to let O'Brien walk apparently came down to who was cheaper to let go.

Leno has an ironclad, "brilliantly written" agreement that guarantees his production company a staggering $150 million if NBC Universal axes his flailing primetime show, an insider said.

That deal was news to O'Brien until Monday night, when Leno referred to it in his monologue.
If that's true, and it's only costing them $40 million to get rid of Conan, then it was a no-brainer decision for NBC.

IndyJones1023

01-20-2010, 02:48 PM

If that's true, and it's only costing them $40 million to get rid of Conan, then it was a no-brainer decision for NBC.

That's been NBC's problem from the beginning - no brains.

DancnDude

01-20-2010, 03:31 PM

Wow $150 million......that's some new info there. Crazy. No wonder NBC would do anything to keep Leno around.

DevdogAZ

01-20-2010, 03:39 PM

Actually, I doubt that number is accurate. I'd bet that it's closer to $80 million, which would be in line with the two-year on-air guarantee and the approximately $40 million salary that Leno has. But either way, if it's cheaper to keep Leno, and he's proven that he can get higher ratings in that 11:35 slot, it's a pretty easy decision for NBC.

mbklein

01-20-2010, 04:18 PM

Easy decision now, stupid decision back at contract time.

DevdogAZ

01-20-2010, 05:27 PM

Easy decision now, stupid decision back at contract time.
At which contract time? In 2004, when NBC decided that Leno would be finished at TTS in 2009? Or in 2008, when NBC gave Leno a new deal with an on-air guarantee?

smak

01-20-2010, 05:40 PM

aindik

01-20-2010, 05:48 PM

Jesus, it's like NBC thought they were selling water to people in the Sahara Desert.

Leno's show was always a risk, a big risk, and to guarantee him $150 million was ridiculous, unless they decided to make it a backdoor way to get Leno back to 11:35.

Which is my guess.

-smak-

They only guaranteed him $150 million if they took him off the air. The amount they'd pay him to be on the air is, I think, less than half of that.

Leno basically said that if you want me to do a job, I'll do it for $x (I think x is something like $30 million a year for two years). If you want this to be a two year non-compete, that'll cost you $150 million.

He also said on the air that he asked to be let out of his contract and NBC said no. So, they always have the option of saying "yes" to that request (and can reasonably bank on Jay asking for a release if they took him off the air). They can negotiate a release (IOW, letting him go work elsewhere) in exchange for a lower payout. Which is what they're doing now with Conan.

mbklein

01-20-2010, 06:17 PM

At which contract time? In 2004, when NBC decided that Leno would be finished at TTS in 2009? Or in 2008, when NBC gave Leno a new deal with an on-air guarantee?

The latter.

DevdogAZ

01-20-2010, 06:29 PM

The latter.
I can agree with that. NBC should have realized that the prospect of a late-night talk show in prime time was risky at best, and should not have given such an exorbitant guarantee. However, the flipside of that is that Leno's attorneys likely realized that it was a very risky proposition and didn't want their client yanked from the air and prevented from going to work elsewhere unless NBC was willing to cough up a trainload of cash.

I think what can be read into this is that Leno simply wanted a guarantee that he'd be able to continue working, no matter what, and they agreed to such an exorbitantly high number so that NBC wouldn't have any choice but to keep him on the air rather than pay him off.

marksman

01-20-2010, 06:38 PM

aindik

01-20-2010, 06:39 PM

Maybe Conan needs to hire Jay's management/agent/lawyers and have them work out his next deal, wherever it may be.

I know everyone likes to talk about how powerful Conan's agents are, but it seems like Jay got the better deal.

What's funny is Jay has no agent. I'm sure he has lawyers evaluating the contracts and advising him, but he does his own negotiating.

marksman

01-20-2010, 06:41 PM

Maybe Carson simply was tired of the whole thing and didn't give a damn.

This seems most likely. He wanted to leave, and he was no longer going to own the show, so it is likely he could give two flips about it.

It is nice that he worked on it and made it an institution but that does not necessarily mean he personally held it in some high regard or something that needed to be put up a pedestal and protected. At the end of the day it was a tv show.

That is what is so funny about this. The Tonight Show is just a tv show. It is clear that a lot of talk-show hosts place more value on it than it is actually worth. With that though, NBC still managed to overpay everyone, when they should have been able to leverage the desires to have this particular show over anything else.

smak

01-20-2010, 07:00 PM

They only guaranteed him $150 million if they took him off the air. The amount they'd pay him to be on the air is, I think, less than half of that.

Leno basically said that if you want me to do a job, I'll do it for $x (I think x is something like $30 million a year for two years). If you want this to be a two year non-compete, that'll cost you $150 million.

He also said on the air that he asked to be let out of his contract and NBC said no. So, they always have the option of saying "yes" to that request (and can reasonably bank on Jay asking for a release if they took him off the air). They can negotiate a release (IOW, letting him go work elsewhere) in exchange for a lower payout. Which is what they're doing now with Conan.

Yes, but giving somebody a 2 year committment, or pay them $150 million, for a show as risky, and that has the potential to flame out is extremely stupid.

When you do that you either think it's a 100% sure no brainer success (which I don't think is possible), or you always have the idea in the back of your head that you can move him to 11:35.

Obviously NBC isn't paying anybody $150 million. So they had to know if 10:00 pm was a failure they'd move him to 11:35. I sincerely doubt this was just something they came up with 2 weeks ago.

They either thought that Conan would just move to 12:05 or they didn't care what Conan thought.

-smak-

aindik

01-20-2010, 07:04 PM

Yes, but giving somebody a 2 year committment, or pay them $150 million, for a show as risky, and that has the potential to flame out is extremely stupid.

When you do that you either think it's a 100% sure no brainer success (which I don't think is possible), or you always have the idea in the back of your head that you can move him to 11:35.

They either thought that Conan would just move to 12:05 or they didn't care what Conan thought.

-smak-

I think alternative c is on the table: take Leno off the air and agree to let him work for another network instead of paying him (or, in exchange for having to pay him less).

dswallow

01-20-2010, 07:14 PM

Ignoring the debacle itself, the whole point of the move in the first place was to save money.

This is not saving money.

:)

DevdogAZ

01-20-2010, 07:22 PM

Ignoring the debacle itself, the whole point of the move in the first place was to save money.

This is not saving money.

:)
Actually, they probably did make a pretty tidy profit on Leno's show over the four months it was on, but the payout to Conan and his staff probably wipes out a good chunk of it.

aindik

01-20-2010, 07:27 PM

They were paying Leno and Conan. Now they are still paying Leno and Conan. The question is whether they are paying more with Conan's severance than they'd pay him to work there, or less.

DevdogAZ

01-20-2010, 07:34 PM

They were paying Leno and Conan. Now they are still paying Leno and Conan. The question is whether they are paying more with Conan's severance than they'd pay him to work there, or less.
But they're also realizing less ad revenue (or will be after Feb 12) because those hosts will only have one hour's worth of shows vs. two.

Adam1115

01-20-2010, 07:44 PM

Amnesia

01-20-2010, 07:54 PM

Well, the deal details apparently haven't been finalized (or at least made public), but there's been a lot of discussion in the press about Conan's payout and no denial from any side.

bicker

01-20-2010, 07:54 PM

It will be immaterial once they cut the check. :whistling:

aindik

01-20-2010, 07:57 PM

Is it certain that Conan will get a payout?

NBC didn't fire him, they wanted to move his show. He refused to accept the schedule change. Doesn't that mean he's quitting?

I could see NBC making that argument.

He had a time slot guarantee. (Although The level of specificity of that guarantee in his contract is something that none of us actually know).

DevdogAZ

01-20-2010, 08:12 PM

Is it certain that Conan will get a payout?

NBC didn't fire him, they wanted to move his show. He refused to accept the schedule change. Doesn't that mean he's quitting?

I could see NBC making that argument.
If either side actually wanted to litigate this issue, that's probably the stance NBC would take.
However, NBC is the one that doesn't have room for Conan on their schedule and made the decision to put Leno in Conan's timeslot. Also, NBC really wouldn't stand to gain anything by suing Conan for breach. They'd just look stupid, damage their reputation even further, and incur millions in attorneys' fees for the privilege. For these and many other reasons, NBC isn't interested in having this issue dealt with in public in a court of law, and they're willing to pay a lot of money to simply have it resolved and put it behind them.

gastrof

01-21-2010, 12:01 AM

Does anyone here think Conan actually has a chance to get another show? Is the FOX thing a real possibility? Didn't FOX say not long ago they weren't interested in having a late night show, no matter who the host was?

I wonder how the legality would work if NBC had offered to let the two of them split the Tonight Show? Each one doing the show every other night?

calitivo

01-21-2010, 01:50 AM

Does anyone here think Conan actually has a chance to get another show? Is the FOX thing a real possibility? Didn't FOX say not long ago they weren't interested in having a late night show, no matter who the host was?

FOX corporate absolutely wants a late night show, but their affiliates don't necessarily because they make good money off cheap reruns at night as counter programming to what the big 3 do. And FOX never had any leverage with them because they didn't have a big name to put in that slot. The amount of money that NBC supposedly makes off late night is huge and they're in last place. FOX's demo is younger (I think) with more popular programming than NBC. If Conan goes to FOX, you will see him popping up everywhere on American Idol, NFL Sunday and other sports coverage, etc.

I think Conan either goes to FOX at 11 or 12 or Comedy Central where they put him behind Stewart/Colbert at 12 or move those guys up an hour and put Conan at 11.

smak

01-21-2010, 04:27 AM

I've read a few places that Conan's success in the ratings the last 2 weeks has helped his FOX cause. I'm convinced that if he pulls off an entertaining show someplace else, he'll do well, because I think he'll get a lot of people to tune in early, and if he can do a good show, a lot will stay.

Maybe he'll get rid of the constrictions, he obviously felt in doing the Tonight Show, with his own show.

-smak-

bicker

01-21-2010, 06:43 AM

FWIR, the Fox thing is pretty speculative. As late as last week, folks were still talking about it as just Fox messing with NBC. Worst case, for him, I could readily see Conan ending up on cable, though, paid an order of magnitude less than what he was being paid at NBC.

FilmCritic3000

01-21-2010, 07:55 AM

http://www.avclub.com/articles/all-over-but-the-last-two-shows-conan-obrien-signs,37329/

The Wall Street Journal is reporting that Conan O'Brien has signed a deal that will seal his exit from NBC and (for now) the late-night talk show host game. That story's behind a subscriber-only wall, but MSNBC has the details, drawing from the Journal piece. So, pardon the report on the report on the report, but here's what we know of the deal now, which will probably be officially announced later today: O'Brien will walk away with $32 million. His staff, reportedly the final sticking point of the negotiations, will be given a total of $12 million. There is also apparently a non-disparagement clause included in the agreement, although its boundaries remain unclear (and will undoubtedly be pushed to their limit).

Thus, over 16 years and nearly 3000 episodes after he started, O'Brien ends his tenure hosting a talk show on NBC. His next move remains uncertain. Presumably he'll land somewhere that will treat him with more respect.

ElJay

01-21-2010, 08:26 AM

"non-disparagement clause"

haha, good luck enforcing that.

terpfan1980

01-21-2010, 08:48 AM

"non-disparagement clause"

haha, good luck enforcing that.

He was already having some fun with that...

"I can't say anything bad about NBC... but it doesn't say I can't sing anything bad about them....

{ quick note on harmonica type thing... }
Morons... Incompetent Morons..."

TiVo'Brien

01-21-2010, 09:00 AM

"non-disparagement clause"

haha, good luck enforcing that.I loved the comparison between the pro-Conan rallies and the pro-NBC rally. Then they repeated the pro-NBC shot at the very end of the show - a jackass walking alone in the desert. :up::p

Turtleboy

01-21-2010, 09:02 AM

There's a google backdoor to all WSJ subscriber stories.

http://news.google.com/news/search?um=1&cf=all&ned=us&hl=en&q=conan+o%27brien+source%3Awall_street_journal

nataylor

01-21-2010, 09:48 AM

Artie Lange predicts Conan's future: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zzus6EmTgFw

It's a rather prophetic clip from a November, 2008 Late Night.

dilbert27

01-21-2010, 09:50 AM

NEW YORK (AP) -- NBC said Thursday it has reached a $45 million deal with Conan O'Brien for his exit from the "Tonight" show, allowing Jay Leno to return to the late-night program he hosted for 17 years.

Full Story: http://hosted.ap.org/dynamic/stories/U/US_TV_LENO_OBRIEN?SITE=MAFAL&SECTION=HOME&TEMPLATE=DEFAULT

timckelley

01-21-2010, 09:59 AM

I think, IIRC, 33M is for him, and 12M is for his staff. Anybody know how many people are in his staff?

aindik

01-21-2010, 10:03 AM

I think, IIRC, 33M is for him, and 12M is for his staff. Anybody know how many people are in his staff?

The article said about 200 people.

timckelley

01-21-2010, 10:07 AM

So, an average of 60K per staff member. I guess that's a pretty good bonus.

aindik

01-21-2010, 10:10 AM

So, an average of 60K per staff member. I guess that's a pretty good bonus.

Especially if we assume the can be back working for a Conan show by September if they want to be. Though perhaps we can't assume that.

IJustLikeTivo

01-21-2010, 10:18 AM

Especially if we assume the can be back working for a Conan show by September if they want to be. Though perhaps we can't assume that.

I think it's highly unlikely he can find a place for a network show. He can try a syndication deal but that would be much less money.

dilbert27

01-21-2010, 10:29 AM

And in the Year 3000

http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/attachment.php?attachmentid=12422&d=1264087638

Jay Leno will still be hosting the Tonight Show

FilmCritic3000

01-21-2010, 10:36 AM

Especially if we assume the can be back working for a Conan show by September if they want to be. Though perhaps we can't assume that.

Methinks Kevin Reilly (formerly NBC Entertainment President - 2004-2007; currently FOX Entertainment President) and Peter Rice (formerly of Fox Searchlight Pictures, currently FOX President) will be having conversations with Conan this week.

Here's Kevin Reilly discussing the possibility of Conan having a late night show on FOX at the Television Critics Association press tour on January 11th.

http://www.thrfeed.com/2010/01/reilly-conan-not-damaged-goods-video.html

I'm sure there are hurdles to jump, but I have a feeling they'll all be leapt over and Conan will have a show on FOX this autumn, IMHO.

scooterboy

01-21-2010, 10:38 AM

So, an average of 60K per staff member. I guess that's a pretty good bonus.

I don't think so. If I had moved across the country as a member of Conan's staff only to later be dumped, I'd expect a lot more than 60K.

It would nice if Conan volunteered 8M of his "bonus" to bring it up to $100K each.

TiVo'Brien

01-21-2010, 10:49 AM

I don't think so. If I had moved across the country as a member of Conan's staff only to later be dumped, I'd expect a lot more than 60K.

It would nice if Conan volunteered 8M of his "bonus" to bring it up to $100K each.That's what I was thinking. Many of them probably spent in anticipation of this being a longer term gig. After taxes $60k ain't that much in California. I wonder how many staffers got crap for their house/condo in the NY/NJ housing market back in spring '09. Hopefully they'll all land on their feet this fall.

timckelley

01-21-2010, 10:51 AM

I don't think so. If I had moved across the country as a member of Conan's staff only to later be dumped, I'd expect a lot more than 60K.

It would nice if Conan volunteered 8M of his "bonus" to bring it up to $100K each.

Well Conan did say he cares more that his staff be taken care of than himself, and that for himself, he just wants to be able to afford to feed his family. Therefore, I assume he will be volunteering this 8M as you outline.

netringer

01-21-2010, 10:55 AM

I think, IIRC, 33M is for him, and 12M is for his staff. Anybody know how many people are in his staff?

The article said about 200 people.

So, an average of 60K per staff member. I guess that's a pretty good bonus.

I don't think so. If I had moved across the country as a member of Conan's staff only to later be dumped, I'd expect a lot more than 60K.

It would nice if Conan volunteered 8M of his "bonus" to bring it up to $100K each.

The word I heard is Conan is pitching in part of his $35M to the staff severance pool.

Methinks that Max Weinberg would do fine without the severance. He has a kick-ass side job (actually Conan was the side job.)

ElJay

01-21-2010, 10:58 AM

When I imagine a settlement pie being drained by the people at the top like Andy, Max, and Mike Sweeney, a $12 million pot seems pretty small. Especially for a staff that just relocated 3000 miles and expected a gig for a decade and a half plus. That's good news to hear Conan will augment it with some of his own money.

His final show will be Friday, with Tom Hanks scheduled to appear as well as Will Ferrell — the first guest O’Brien welcomed as “Tonight” host last June — and musical guest Neil Young.

Leno will return to “Tonight” on March 1.

“In the end, Conan was appreciative of the steps NBC made to take care of his staff and crew, and decided to supplement the severance they were getting out of his own pocket,” his manager, Gavin Polone, told The Wall Street Journal. “Now he just wants to get back on the air as quickly as possible.”

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/34970662/ns/entertainment-television/

TiVoJedi

01-21-2010, 11:16 AM

Does Conan pay tax on his severance that he donates to his staff?

Also without a late show he and Andy could do
"Conan and Andy Richter Control the Universe". I miss Andy's old show, but they wouldn't be as crispy in hell (FOX) if they can bring Conan over in some capacity for a show on their network (just don't cancel it after 7 months) ;)

DevdogAZ

01-21-2010, 11:16 AM

When I imagine a settlement pie being drained by the people at the top like Andy, Max, and Mike Sweeney, a $12 million pot seems pretty small. Especially for a staff that just relocated 3000 miles and expected a gig for a decade and a half plus. That's good news to hear Conan will augment it with some of his own money.
That was going to be my point. The people at the top will get much, much more than $60k, leaving probably less than $30k-40k for the rest of the staff.

And if Conan is planning to kick in some of his own money into the staff severance pool, I'd think that he'd want the actual deal to reflect that, so he won't be taxed on money that he's giving away. It might look good from a PR standpoint for him to accept a $33 million settlement and then publicly give away several million of it, but from a financial standpoint, it would make far more sense for him to tell NBC to simply give him less and give his staff more.

Amnesia

01-21-2010, 11:21 AM

The article said about 200 people.
And how many of those people moved across the country? Not very many, I assume. Why would a cameraman relocate? Or a stagehand? Or a gaffer? One camera job is pretty much like another I would think.

Now his writers, the directors, people like that I can see moving...

DevdogAZ

01-21-2010, 11:29 AM

And how many of those people moved across the country? Not very many, I assume. Why would a cameraman relocate? Or a stagehand? Or a gaffer? One camera job is pretty much like another I would think.

Now his writers, the directors, people like that I can see moving...
That's a good point. The number of people that relocated is probably in the 30-50 range, and they'll probably get a much bigger piece of the pie than the regular union stagehands and camera people.

DevdogAZ

01-21-2010, 11:30 AM

Next question: What does NBC do with that brand new studio? Does Leno move into it starting March 1? Does Leno stay at his current studio and NBC just keeps the studio for when Leno retires? Does Universal Studios put some kind of attraction in that studio?

bicker

01-21-2010, 11:31 AM

Does Conan pay tax on his severance that he donates to his staff?I'm not sure, but I think that unless they're careful, that money is going to be taxable twice, first as income to O'Brien, and then again as a gift to his staff members.

zalusky

01-21-2010, 11:46 AM

I wonder how many staffers have houses that are under water.

DevdogAZ

01-21-2010, 11:48 AM

I wonder how many staffers have houses that are under water.
If they bought in 2009 and had to put down at least 10%, it's unlikely they're upside-down now. The market has been pretty stagnant for the last year, but hasn't really gone down too much.

lew

01-21-2010, 11:49 AM

I'm not sure, but I think that unless they're careful, that money is going to be taxable twice, first as income to O'Brien, and then again as a gift to his staff members.

Won't the money be paid to Conan's production company? Won't the production company get a tax decution when the the money is paid to the staffers as compensation? Severance pay? Bonus?

Conan paid staff members during the writers strike. I'm sure his attorney's/accountants know what they're doing.

bicker

01-21-2010, 11:53 AM

Won't the money be paid to Conan's production company?Dunno, but that would indeed bypass some of the double-taxation, as the production company can write some of it off as business expense. I thought I read something about Conan kicking in some of his own money though, and that's where they would probably have to get very creative to avoid the double-taxation.

aindik

01-21-2010, 11:56 AM

DevdogAZ

01-21-2010, 12:08 PM

There is no reason for Conan to actually "kick in his own money." All he has to do is tell NBC to change the contract so that it's $24 million for him and $20 million for the staff, instead of $32 million for him and $12 million for the staff. NBC doesn't care. $44 million is $44 million.
Exactly my point. So either Conan isn't kicking in any of his own money to the staff, or he's purposely taking it for himself and then publicly giving it to his staff to make himself look more sympathetic.

stujac

01-21-2010, 12:26 PM

That's a good point. The number of people that relocated is probably in the 30-50 range, and they'll probably get a much bigger piece of the pie than the regular union stagehands and camera people.

This may have been addressed already but I would bet that the people who relocated had monetary assistance to do so. When my company asked me to relocate from SF to LA in 89 they refunded all closing costs on the sale of my house and gave me a nice little chunk of change to make the move. Ended up costing me nothing.

netringer

01-21-2010, 12:30 PM

There is no reason for Conan to actually "kick in his own money." All he has to do is tell NBC to change the contract so that it's $24 million for him and $20 million for the staff, instead of $32 million for him and $12 million for the staff. NBC doesn't care. $44 million is $44 million.

There could be reasons. Top of my head, if Conan is a personal corporation and the some of the staff are his employees, giving them a taste of the $32M is tax deductible to the corp.

aindik

01-21-2010, 12:38 PM

There could be reasons. Top of my head, if Conan is a personal corporation and the some of the staff are his employees, giving them a taste of the $32M is tax deductible to the corp.

A) the corp never having the income in the first place, and B) the corp having the income and then deducting it, are the same for tax purposes. A might be better.

JYoung

01-21-2010, 12:38 PM

I wonder how many staffers have houses that are under water.

If they bought in 2009 and had to put down at least 10%, it's unlikely they're upside-down now. The market has been pretty stagnant for the last year, but hasn't really gone down too much.

With the current weather in Southern California, some of those houses may literally be under water.

marksman

01-21-2010, 01:11 PM

Well I hope that 12 million is enough for his staff to find new jobs or wait on Conan. I don't know how many people that covers.

Sounds like ultimately Conan gave up a chunk of his own money to get that done, though, I suspect.

I suspect Kevin Reilly will be talking to Conan's people today.

edit: I missed the part about Conan kicking in more after the fact. That is good.

People are too worried about taxes. You guys have no idea how they are employeed or who pays what to whom. I am sure it is fairly trivial for Conan to expand their severance packages without some kind of additional tax issues. The money flow is likely the same as it always has been. Most of those people likely get paid by the production company who makes the show. They will get a severance from the same. NBC is committing 12 million to that, which will go to the production company, and Conan the rest. It is not going to be a problem worth worrying about.

scooterboy

01-21-2010, 01:22 PM

This may have been addressed already but I would bet that the people who relocated had monetary assistance to do so.

Probably true, but if it was me I'd still want a good amount of compensation just for the trouble of uprooting my family and leaving my home, only to be out of a job 7 months later.

I'm glad to hear Conan is (somehow) giving them more than the 12M. And as stated before, that doesn't hurt him in the PR department either.

Amnesia

01-21-2010, 01:28 PM

if it was me I'd still want a good amount of compensation just for the trouble of uprooting my family and leaving my home, only to be out of a job 7 months later.Of course you'd want it. Everybody wants it. But that doesn't mean you should get it. Unless you have a contract, then there was never any guarantee that your job would last more than 1 month. For example, you could have been fired.

DevdogAZ

01-21-2010, 01:34 PM

Another question I have: With Conan's show ending tomorrow and Leno's new show not starting until March 1, what does NBC show in that timeslot for the three weeks before the Olympics starts? Reruns of Conan's Tonight Show? Reruns of Leno's Tonight Show? Reruns of Leno's 10 pm show? Reruns of Carson? Something else entirely?

Amnesia

01-21-2010, 01:38 PM

I think reruns of Conan, but I can't find an official reference...

DianaMo

01-21-2010, 01:40 PM

NBC should've left things as they are until after the Olympics.

DevdogAZ

01-21-2010, 01:59 PM

I just found this quote in an article I was reading. It's what Conan said on the air in December 2008, the night it was announced that Leno was getting a 10 pm show:
"Let's talk about this on a serious note for just one moment, I've had many people calling me today saying, "What is all this? "What's happening?" Jay Leno is going to be going in at 10:00 on NBC. I wanted to make something very clear here on the show this evening. I've known about this for a while. I've talked a lot about this with Jay. I am thrilled. I am absolutely thrilled that Jay is staying at NBC. He has been my lead-in on this program for 16 seasons. He is a fantastic lead-in. He is a huge part of my success. I am indebted to Jay Leno. And I love the idea that that relationship is going to continue. He is going to be my lead-in continuing, I hope, for a long, long time. So congratulations to Jay Leno. (APPLAUSE) This is a happy ending. It's very nice. We're thrilled for him and we're thrilled for everybody at the Tonight Show. Also I've talked it over with my producer and that means I can keep doing my Jay Leno impression."
Conan played nice with Jay, just like Jay played nice in 2004 when it was announced that Conan was taking over in 2009. Does anyone really believe Conan was happy about it? Of course not. So why does everyone place so much stock in the fact that Leno appeared to be happy in 2004 when announcing that Conan was taking over his slot? It's all just an act to look good on the air and seem like a nice guy.

TiVo'Brien

01-21-2010, 02:07 PM

I just found this quote in an article I was reading. It's what Conan said on the air in December 2008, the night it was announced that Leno was getting a 10 pm show:

Conan played nice with Jay, just like Jay played nice in 2004 when it was announced that Conan was taking over in 2009. Does anyone really believe Conan was happy about it? Of course not. So why does everyone place so much stock in the fact that Leno appeared to be happy in 2004 when announcing that Conan was taking over his slot? It's all just an act to look good on the air and seem like a nice guy.You should probably qualify that with an "I think" or "It seems to me". I mean, how can you really know that for sure? You've sounded rather cynical throughout this thread. :down:

DevdogAZ

01-21-2010, 02:10 PM

You should probably qualify that with an "I think" or "It seems to me". I mean, how can you really know that for sure? You've sounded rather cynical throughout this thread. :down:
What part of what I wrote do you not agree with? Do you think Conan really was happy that Jay would be doing a talk show 90 minutes before his new show?

I'm simply trying to point out to all the people in this thread who slammed Leno for saying in 2004 that he would be leaving the show, that what he was saying in 2004 was just on-air niceties, just like what Conan said in 2008.

aindik

01-21-2010, 02:12 PM

What part of what I wrote do you not agree with? Do you think Conan really was happy that Jay would be doing a talk show 90 minutes before his new show?

I'm simply trying to point out to all the people in this thread who slammed Leno for saying in 2004 that he would be leaving the show, that what he was saying in 2004 was just on-air niceties, just like what Conan said in 2008.

Conan said something Jay is doing is good, when he really thought it was bad. He's just lying about his opinion on something. Jay, OTOH, actually agreed to do something.

DevdogAZ

01-21-2010, 02:15 PM

The article on TVbythenumbers.com (http://tvbythenumbers.com/2010/01/21/its-officially-over-conan-inks-deal-to-leave-nbc/39605), which appears to be pulled from several sources, has some interesting information that hasn't been posted in this thread yet:

- O’Brien will be able to to begin working for another network beginning September 1

- NBC retains the rights to bits and characters Conan created

The deal got held up as Conan tried to negotiate better severance – and apparently particularly the non-union workers without long term contracts got “much better” deals than NBC typically pays

Conan will supplement the severances out of his own pocket.

Others under contract, including Andy Richter and Max Weinberg with contracts will negotiate their own deals.

O’Brien also agreed to a short window (duration unknown) where he can’t give any media interviews or speak ill of NBC publicly. NBC also will be silent on the topic during that period. Conan can mock NBC in his next gig but NBC can sue him for defamation if it chooses.
With the green light to begin working elsewhere as of September 1, it will be interesting to see if Fox can get a show in place that quickly. And with Max, Andy and some of the other top people that have contracts having to negotiate their own settlements, that will free up a larger chunk of the staff severance pool for the other workers.

Amnesia

01-21-2010, 02:15 PM

Jay, OTOH, actually agreed to do something.
Yup---and he did exactly as he agreed.

zalusky

01-21-2010, 02:15 PM

Conan said something Jay is doing is good, when he really thought it was bad. He's just lying about his opinion on something. Jay, OTOH, actually agreed to do something.

You could say that about Brett Favre too but it seems to be working for him.

DevdogAZ

01-21-2010, 02:18 PM

Conan said something Jay is doing is good, when he really thought it was bad. He's just lying about his opinion on something. Jay, OTOH, actually agreed to do something.
And he did what he agreed to do. But that wasn't my point. People in this thread seemed to point to Leno's comments in 2004 as some kind of proof that Leno was in agreement with the decision NBC made to kick him to the curb in 2009. I'm simply trying to point out that simply because he said something nice on the air doesn't mean that's the way he really felt about it, just like what Conan said on the air wasn't the way he really felt.

lew

01-21-2010, 02:20 PM

And if Conan is planning to kick in some of his own money into the staff severance pool, I'd think that he'd want the actual deal to reflect that, so he won't be taxed on money that he's giving away. It might look good from a PR standpoint for him to accept a $33 million settlement and then publicly give away several million of it, but from a financial standpoint, it would make far more sense for him to tell NBC to simply give him less and give his staff more.

Dunno, but that would indeed bypass some of the double-taxation, as the production company can write some of it off as business expense. I thought I read something about Conan kicking in some of his own money though, and that's where they would probably have to get very creative to avoid the double-taxation.

Exactly my point. So either Conan isn't kicking in any of his own money to the staff, or he's purposely taking it for himself and then publicly giving it to his staff to make himself look more sympathetic.

Conaco (Conan's production company) "produces" the tonight show. I doubt NBC is paying Conan directly. There shouldn't be an issue if Conaco uses some of the money to pay staff instead of paying Conan. It's semantics but Conan is kicking in his own money if money that NBC paid to Conaco, to compenste Conan, is paid to staff members. Shouldn't be a tax issue, a corporation can deduct pay.

NBC should've left things as they are until after the Olympics.

Re-runs are scheduled for next week. Probably not worth it to keep Conan on for another week or two.

I think NBC should have delayed the decision. Pre-empt Leno during sweeps for shows like the Apprentice. See how well Leno did against summer reruns.

TiVo'Brien

01-21-2010, 02:21 PM

........ Do you think Conan really was happy that Jay would be doing a talk show 90 minutes before his new show?.....The gist I took away from it was that so long as Conan was still getting Johnny Carson's old chair, he was still happy. Maybe I'm a naive idealist, and maybe you're reading the situation as it is, and not as this Conan fan wants it to be, but I don't think Conan was ever going to depend on Jay's audience as a lead-in to his show. Conan (and NBC) had to know that Conan would only keep so many of Jay's demographic. They're two different audiences, and Conan must know that and not really care what show Jay got.

Having said that, I do acknowledge that given the American demographic, Jay's humor casts a wider net than Conan's.

netringer

01-21-2010, 02:23 PM

I think reruns of Conan, but I can't find an official reference...

I'd imagine after 12:35 tomorrow, NBC will be nothing but "Canon? WHO?"

DianaMo

01-21-2010, 02:24 PM

Jay Leno Is the Future of TV. Seriously
http://www.time.com/time/arts/article/0,8599,1920038,00.html

Cover photo
http://www.time.com/time/covers/0,16641,20090914,00.html

http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/attachment.php?attachmentid=12424&d=1264101883

terpfan1980

01-21-2010, 02:25 PM

I'd imagine after 12:35 tonight, NBC will be nothing but "Canon, WHO?"

Two problems with that comment ^^

It would be after tomorrow night and it's CONAN, not Canon.

DevdogAZ

01-21-2010, 02:26 PM

The gist I took away from it was that so long as Conan was still getting Johnny Carson's old chair, he was still happy. Maybe I'm a naive idealist, and maybe you're reading the situation as it is, and not as this Conan fan wants it to be, but I don't think Conan was ever going to depend on Jay's audience as a lead-in to his show. Conan (and NBC) had to know that Conan would only keep so many of Jay's demographic. They're two different audiences, and Conan must know that and not really care what show Jay got.

Having said that, I do acknowledge that given the American demographic, Jay's humor casts a wider net than Conan's.
I don't think it's as much about lead-in and demographics as it is about Conan thinking all along that he was going to become NBC's top late-night comedy host and finally be out from under the shadow of Leno, and then suddenly finding out that not only was Leno not leaving, but he was getting a raise and a more high-profile show, thus casting an even bigger shadow over Conan. It was basically NBC pulling the rug out from underneath him. He played nice about it, but privately he must have been seething.

netringer

01-21-2010, 02:26 PM

I wonder if Conan's off-the-air embargo is just for hosting a show or if he coudl be on Late Night as a guest Monday.

CBS might not be too keen to plug a coming competitor.

netringer

01-21-2010, 02:34 PM

It would be after tomorrow night and it's CONAN, not Canon.

Canon? The barbarian? You mean that Arnold Shwartzenegger movie?

Doesn't ring a bell.

mrdbdigital

01-21-2010, 03:34 PM

Something to keep in mind in discussions about Conan's staff: Staff and crew loosing their jobs when a show is canceled or otherwise stops production is the norm in the television industry. Happens all the time throughout the country.

I think Conan is showing he is a man of honor by looking out for his staff and providing for them in his final payout from NBC. A big severance package like they are getting is not the norm in this industry, by a long shot.

JYoung

01-21-2010, 03:38 PM

nataylor

01-21-2010, 03:45 PM

That stinks if NBC gets to keep Conan's characters and bits.

Amnesia

01-21-2010, 03:45 PM

The grips, gaffers, and the cue card holder?
I think I saw that it was for non-union employees. That would seem to exclude the above workers...

DianaMo

01-21-2010, 03:50 PM

NBC, Conan O'Brien Reach Deal for 'Tonight Show' Exit
Widely anticipated news paves way for Jay Leno to return to late night

By Marisa Guthrie -- Broadcasting & Cable, 1/21/2010 9:06:00 AM

"NBC is like a guy with two girlfriends who doesn't know which one he's going to marry," said Leno. "And the longer you wait, the madder they both get."

http://www.broadcastingcable.com/article/444477-NBC_Conan_O_Brien_Reach_Deal_for_Tonight_Show_Exit.php

ElJay

01-21-2010, 04:02 PM

NBC keeping the bits isn't necessarily a bad thing. My favorite ones were from the Late Night show and were gone long ago anyway, such as the old-time NBC radio crooner and the "no reason to live" guy. ("Where's my choo-choo?!")

I do hope a new show could tilt back more onto (new) comedy bits instead of a double segment with a guest. That would give them more time to utilize jokes including Max and the band or the hilarious bit players like Brian McCann. All of these angles have been marginalized on "The Tonight Show."

bicker

01-21-2010, 04:04 PM

That stinks if NBC gets to keep Conan's characters and bits.I'm sure my boss will keep all of the creative stuff I thought up while working for him, when we part company, amicably or otherwise.

nataylor

01-21-2010, 04:06 PM

I'll miss Triumph.

IndyJones1023

01-21-2010, 04:08 PM

I'm sure my boss will keep all of the creative stuff I thought up while working for him, when we part company, amicably or otherwise.

That's a bit different. I can't imagine another comic doing Conan's same bits to the same amount of (or any, for that matter) laughter.

Langree

01-21-2010, 04:08 PM

I'm sure my boss will keep all of the creative stuff I thought up while working for him, when we part company, amicably or otherwise.

Not the same, does NBC have a use for the masterbating bear? I think they just hold on to the intelectual property to give a big FU to departing talent. (Not just NBC is guilty of this)

bicker

01-21-2010, 04:08 PM

Take my word for it... No one can imagine another person doing my "same bits" either.

MickeS

01-21-2010, 04:13 PM

That's a bit different. I can't imagine another comic doing Conan's same bits to the same amount of (or any, for that matter) laughter.

Obviously they just want to make sure Conan doesn't get to do them either.

IndyJones1023

01-21-2010, 04:16 PM

Obviously they just want to make sure Conan doesn't get to do them either.

Exactly. And that's petty. I know it's the industry norm, it's also spiteful.

DevdogAZ

01-21-2010, 04:16 PM

I'll miss Triumph.

Not the same, does NBC have a use for the masterbating bear? I think they just hold on to the intelectual property to give a big FU to departing talent. (Not just NBC is guilty of this)
I liked Conan's joke the other night where he said, "Don't we live in a wonderful country, when a cigar-smoking dog puppet and a masturbating bear are considered intellectual property?"

inaka

01-21-2010, 04:18 PM

TiVo'Brien

01-21-2010, 04:18 PM

Not the same, does NBC have a use for the masterbating bear? I think they just hold on to the intelectual property to give a big FU to departing talent. (Not just NBC is guilty of this)Conan should now substitute a peacock for the bear. ;):p

DevdogAZ

01-21-2010, 04:20 PM

Sorry if this has been covered, but since Jay and Conan were both under contract, did NBC ever float the idea of moving Jay Leno to daytime talk in a syndication deal similar to Oprah's with ABC?

I remember growing up and watching Mike Douglas and Merv Griffin so I could see that it has at least the potential of being an idea on the table. Also, Oprah is ending her show in 2011, so there will be a void in daytime in the near future.

Leno was guaranteed two years on the air at 10 pm. He would have to approve any changes to that deal. He approved going back to 11:35, but he wouldn't be interested in a daytime show. He apparently likes the format and the audiences that come with late night, and wouldn't be interested in the types of female-centric topics that are necessary to make a daytime show successful.

aindik

01-21-2010, 04:24 PM

TiVo'Brien

01-21-2010, 04:25 PM

According to the NY Times, Leno will keep his current studio. I wonder Fox would be able to lease Conan's current stage/studio? Would NBC be interested in recouping the money they laid out for it?

IndyJones1023

01-21-2010, 04:25 PM

I don't know. Ellen DeGeneres is essentially doing a late night style talk show in the middle of the day, and it seems to be working.

But her audience is only one gender.

DevdogAZ

01-21-2010, 04:25 PM

I don't know. Ellen DeGeneres is essentially doing a late night style talk show in the middle of the day, and it seems to be working.
Never seen her show. But traditionally, the feel and look of daytime shows are lighter, perkier, more geared towards women, etc.

Victory Vegas

01-21-2010, 04:26 PM

they will just fire Jay next year.

DevdogAZ

01-21-2010, 04:28 PM

they will just fire Jay next year.
Yes, that would be brilliant of NBC to pay Conan and his staff $44 million to go away, only to fire Leno next year and be left with nobody to host The Tonight Show. I'm sure that's exactly what NBC has planned.

nataylor

01-21-2010, 04:29 PM

they will just fire Jay next year.

Now that'd be hilarious, if his ratings don't bounce back at all.

zalusky

01-21-2010, 04:51 PM

That stinks if NBC gets to keep Conan's characters and bits.

Remember Letterman and stupid pet tricks. NBC kept it. I can't remember why but he got to take the top ten.

inaka

01-21-2010, 04:54 PM

mbklein

01-21-2010, 04:59 PM

Remember Letterman and stupid pet tricks. NBC kept it. I can't remember why but he got to take the top ten.

Probably because people had been compiling top ten lists for a long time before it became a "bit" -- even on late-night TV -- so it's not trademarkable. Letterman was the first person to turn it into a regular, central feature of the show, but it's still a pretty generic concept.

What stops anyone else from doing it? Nothing, except the fact that there's no way to do it without looking like you're ripping off Letterman's bit.

The human animal differs from the lesser primates in his passion for lists of "Ten Best". ~ H. Allen Smith (1906-1976), American writer

Turtleboy

01-21-2010, 05:05 PM

Remember Letterman and stupid pet tricks. NBC kept it. I can't remember why but he got to take the top ten.

NBC hinted that they were going to keep the Top 10 for Late Night with Conan O'Brien. Conan said something to the extent of, "Hey, I don't want to do Dave's bits." It made NBC look silly.

DevdogAZ

01-21-2010, 05:05 PM

Was this something Leno actually said, or are you just assuming he wouldn't be interested?

Again, I'm not talking doing a Maury show, but rather a Mike Douglas, Merv or even an Ellen type daytime talk show. Again, with the void of Oprah in 2011, there's going to be a shakeup in daytime anyway.
I read something about it in this article (http://www.thrfeed.com/2008/12/leno-nbc-hedgin.html) dated December 2008, when it was announced that Leno was moving his show to 10 pm.

But I think it's pretty clear just from the way this whole thing played out that Leno wasn't interested in daytime. Do you really think that people at NBC didn't come up with that as a potential solution to this mess? I'm certain they threw every conceivable idea against the wall (daytime, weekends, specials, hosting a reality show, etc.) and the only thing he was interested in was a late-night style talk show.

JYoung

01-21-2010, 05:09 PM

Leno was guaranteed two years on the air at 10 pm. He would have to approve any changes to that deal. He approved going back to 11:35, but he wouldn't be interested in a daytime show. He apparently likes the format and the audiences that come with late night, and wouldn't be interested in the types of female-centric topics that are necessary to make a daytime show successful.

Which raises another question.
Is that two years still effect or will he have his term on the Tonight Show extended to say four or five years?

Again, I'm not talking doing a Maury show, but rather a Mike Douglas, Merv or even an Ellen type daytime talk show. Again, with the void of Oprah in 2011, there's going to be a shakeup in daytime anyway.

There is a shakeup going on in daytime television right now.
Soap Operas seem to be on the way out.
With more people working (and working longer hours) and less "Stay at home" parents, viewership is down.

IIRC, Mike and Merv were on at 3 and 4 in the afternoon.
(I think, I was more interested in watching cartoons at that age.)
Who's home watching at those times now?

For what they'd have to pay Leno and company, I'm not sure how much profit there would be.

IJustLikeTivo

01-21-2010, 05:10 PM

That stinks if NBC gets to keep Conan's characters and bits.

Why wouldn't they? Unless Conan negotiated rights to that stuff separately, it normally accrues to the employer. Just like software written by employees. IBM used to have a clause that gave them right to stuff done after hours.

IndyJones1023

01-21-2010, 05:13 PM

Why wouldn't they? Unless Conan negotiated rights to that stuff separately, it normally accrues to the employer. Just like software written by employees. IBM used to have a clause that gave them right to stuff done after hours.

It's a little different than going to work for a corporation that specifically hires you to produce a product (code, whatever).

NBC is in a contract with Conan's company to produce a show. Not bits. The people who work the show don't work for NBC. They work for Conan's company.

And has been stated, NBC will effectively never be able to use the intellectual property they own that Conan created.

DevdogAZ

01-21-2010, 05:14 PM

Which raises another question.
Is that two years still effect or will he have his term on the Tonight Show extended to say four or five years?
That's a good question. Perhaps as part of this whole shakeup, he got a new contract for a longer period of time. Given that money isn't the driving force for Leno, I'm sure he'd be happy to renegotiate his deal to provide for less money per year but for a longer guaranteed period of time. And since there's really nobody knocking down the door trying to get The Tonight Show hosting gig anymore, there's no reason for NBC not to give him a longer-term deal.

aindik

01-21-2010, 05:22 PM

NBC is in a contract with Conan's company to produce a show. Not bits. The people who work the show don't work for NBC. They work for Conan's company.

The Tonight Show is a joint production of Conaco (a company owned by Conan O'Brien) and Universal Media Studios (a company owned by NBC Universal).

Late Night with Conan O'Brien was a joint production of those two along with Broadway Video (a company owned by Lorne Michaels).

And has been stated, NBC will effectively never be able to use the intellectual property they own that Conan created.

That's what intellectual property (like all other property) is in a nutshell - the right to exclude others from using it. In the case of copyrights and patents, you don't actually have to be using the invention/work of authorship yourself in order to stop others from using it. For example, a copyright in an out of print book is valid and can be used to stop others from printing the book.