Jay Leno is killing NBC

[aintnosin]

NBC is not going to lie about the contract that they have with O'Brien.

Not in court... That's perjury. We're talking media spin here. Of course, they're going to lie if it benefits them. Boy are you naive.

[DevdogAZ]

Time magazine's James Poniewozik deals with that question (http://tunedin.blogs.time.com/2010/01/13/nbcs-conanundrum-is-jay-the-smart-choice/), adroitly I think, in a blog post today. His summation:



Hard to argue with that.
Thanks for posting that. It's a good, objective article.

[Amnesia]

From what I've read, behind the scenes most of them have quietly felt that NBC has been treating O'Brien badly for years. "for years"? How did they treat O'Brien badly before announcing Leno's 10PM show?

[DevdogAZ]

Could Johnny Carson come back?


Please...
Weekend at Johnny's?

;)

[bicker]

Not in court... That's perjury. We're talking media spin here. Of course, they're going to lie if it benefits them. They're not going to lie about something like that, where they can be so readily proven as liars (while and individual would do that, equivocating the meaning of words).

Boy are you naive.Yet another pointless personal attack. Imagine that. I guess we should take that as a good measure of how little merit there in what you post, since you cannot seem to utter a single point without revealing puerile behavior.

[bicker]

What would you prefer?Personally, I would prefer it if prime time was 7PM-10PM in every time zone. For what it is worth.

[dilbert27]

I hope they both walk, NBC don't deserve any of them.

BIH NBC.

If that was to happen wonder what they would they do then Tonight show with Jimmy Fallon?

[Kamakzie]

LOL http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OMgPPJZfsCM

[aintnosin]

They're not going to lie about something like that, where they can be so readily proven as liars (while and individual would do that, equivocating the meaning of words).Both sides in a legal dispute are always go to say, in the media, that the law is on their side and they expect to prevails. If contracts were cut and dried, we wouldn't need courts to sort these things out.

So both sides claim to be in right (because it's stupid to publicly admit your wrong until the case is decided and often long after that), but usually only one is.

Another way to look at it: NBC pays lawyers to interpret their contracts in a manner most favorable to them. If the lawyers publicly said, "Well, Conan's case is stronger than ours. We have to put him on at 11:30 or pay him a gazillion dollars," they wouldn't be lawyers for very long.

[morac]

Personally, I would prefer it if prime time was 7PM-10PM in every time zone. For what it is worth.

With my TiVo, prime time is whenever I want it to be. ;)

[LoadStar]

Could Johnny Carson come back?


Please...

We would need another thread to discuss that. :p

[DevdogAZ]

Both sides in a legal dispute are always go to say, in the media, that the law is on their side and they expect to prevails. If contracts were cut and dried, we wouldn't need courts to sort these things out.

So both sides claim to be in right (because it's stupid to publicly admit your wrong until the case is decided and often long after that), but usually only one is.

Another way to look at it: NBC pays lawyers to interpret their contracts in a manner most favorable to them. If the lawyers publicly said, "Well, Conan's case is stronger than ours. We have to put him on at 11:30 or pay him a gazillion dollars," they wouldn't be lawyers for very long.
Of course both sides are going to spin. That's expected. But you can usually read between the lines. What bicker is saying, and what I agree with, is that NBC has given specifics, saying that the contract specifically gives Conan the right to host a show called "The Tonight Show" but doesn't specify what time said show would be aired. Conversely, Conan issued his statement, which seems to appeal to people's emotional side, when it says that "The Tonight Show" has always been at 11:35 and it just wouldn't be the same show at 12:05. Nothing specific about the contract, just the way he feels it should be.

If you read into both of those statements, you can clearly see that NBC has stated the specifics of the contract (and they're not going to lie about those specifics) and that Conan is taking the position that the specifics should be interpreted a different way.

Both sides have a point, and that's what they pay their lawyers for, but in NBC's position, they can't say, "The contract says X" when it's so easy to prove that the contract doesn't say X. If NBC wanted to lie in that situation, they simply wouldn't give specifics, and would instead say something like, "Mr. O'Brien is under contractual obligations to the network" without specifying what those obligations are.

[DevdogAZ]

With my TiVo, prime time is whenever I want it to be. ;)
As long as it's later than 8 pm. Living in NJ, you can't have prime time from 7 to 10. Unless it's last night's prime time.

[gossamer88]

Weekend at Johnny's?

;)

LOL!

[sonnik]

I choose not to believe that article. I'm basing that on the fact that it seems to be a lot of rumor. If Jay was so concerned about Conan's well being, he wouldn't have made his remarks in the B&C Interview (http://www.broadcastingcable.com/article/366971-Jay_Leno_Talks_Back_An_Exclusive_Interview_With_B_C.php).

Do you want to go back to 11:35?

If it were offered to me, would I take it? If that's what they wanted to do, sure. That would be fine if they wanted to.

[bicker]

What bicker is saying, and what I agree with, is that NBC has given specifics, saying that the contract specifically gives Conan the right to host a show called "The Tonight Show" but doesn't specify what time said show would be aired. Conversely, Conan issued his statement, which seems to appeal to people's emotional side ... but in NBC's position, they can't say, "The contract says X" when it's so easy to prove that the contract doesn't say X. Yes, that is precisely the point I had made.

[ToddNeedsTiVo]

Personally, I would prefer it if prime time was 7PM-10PM in every time zone. For what it is worth.

That's my opinion as well. But, I know the lifestyle on the coasts is such that it's not as practical for prime time to begin at 7 there.

However, visiting family in Florida right now, I hate having the 8-11 version of prime time.

And I really miss having TiVo access!

[bicker]

With my TiVo, prime time is whenever I want it to be. ;)Yes, true, but I interact quite often with other people, poor souls who haven't seen the Light, and so it would be better for them, and therefore better for me helping them, if prime time was 7PM-10PM everywhere. :)

[morac]

As long as it's later than 8 pm. Living in NJ, you can't have prime time from 7 to 10. Unless it's last night's prime time.

The point of my post is that while prime TV watching time may continue to be 7 to 10 or 8 to 11, people may not be watching shows that are actually airing during that time period.

Prime Time is basically something the networks came up with in order to charge advertisers more since more people watch during prime time than at other times. With the increased usage of DVRs "prime time" has less meaning than it used to.

Speaking of "prime time", since Jay is moving back to 11:35 (ET/PT), doesn't that mean that NBC won't be able to charge advertisers as much since Jay will no longer be in prime time?

[aindik]

Of course both sides are going to spin. That's expected. But you can usually read between the lines. What bicker is saying, and what I agree with, is that NBC has given specifics, saying that the contract specifically gives Conan the right to host a show called "The Tonight Show" but doesn't specify what time said show would be aired. Conversely, Conan issued his statement, which seems to appeal to people's emotional side, when it says that "The Tonight Show" has always been at 11:35 and it just wouldn't be the same show at 12:05. Nothing specific about the contract, just the way he feels it should be.

He's not just "appealing to people's emotional side." Both sides are arguing about what words in a contract mean.

The parties are setting up an argument about the correct definition of the phrase "The Tonight Show" as it is used in that contract. Conan is appealing to extrinsic evidence to inform the definition of that term.

Conan's argument is that the parties, when they were negotiating the contract, both knew what "The Tonight Show" was. His argument is that it would have been absurd for Conan to demand, and for both Conan AND NBC to spend so much time, energy and money negotiating, over a show called "The Tonight Show" if all that meant was just slapping that name on any show at any time of the day or night. IOW, he's arguing that that's not what either of the parties intended when they negotiated the agreement.

You are free to disagree with it. There are legitimate arguments on the other side, too. But Conan's is a perfectly legitimate legal argument. It's not completely emotional.

[Fool Me Twice]

Could Johnny Carson come back?


Please...

With Jimmy Stewart as guest.:)

[cmontyburns]

"for years"? How did they treat O'Brien badly before announcing Leno's 10PM show?

I can't remember which blog post it was -- probably either Sepinwall or Poniewozik -- but they ran down a list of arguably disrespectful treatment, dating all the way back to NBC openly considering replacing O'Brien within his first few months of hosting Late Night.

[bicker]

No: Conan is the only one trying to make a semantic and emotional argument about what "The Tonight Show" means. NBC is saying that there are parameters in the contract that refer to what time the program can be scheduled to air -- objective measures.

[aindik]

No: Conan is the only one trying to make a semantic and emotional argument about what "The Tonight Show" means. NBC is saying that there are parameters in the contract that refer to what time the program can be scheduled to air -- objective measures.

I thought the current position is that there are no time slot parameters in the contract and all it says is "The Tonight Show." Obviously if he specifically agreed that he could be on at 12:05, that's different.

[Kamakzie]

Could Johnny Carson come back?


Please...

Tales of the Late Night with Johnny Crypt keeper!

[NJChris]

Could Johnny Carson come back?


Please... Neither Leno or Conan have his class and talent.

[timckelley]

Do I understand correctly that if the contract makes no guarantees, implied or explicit, on when the show has to air, that if Conan refuses to do a 12:05 show, that he's in breach of contract? Can he refuse in that situation? And if he can, what are the consequences of "breach of contract"?

[ToddNeedsTiVo]

I wish we could hear the late Mr. Carson's opinion about this whole mess. :(

[Amnesia]

Can he refuse in that situation? And if he can, what are the consequences of "breach of contract"?Of course he can refuse...but then he'd be in breach of contract. Given the situation, I would assume that NBC would just let him go, with no further monetary obligations on either side.

[timckelley]

Really? So in fact, his end of the contract is not enforced, and for practical purposes doesn't exist? I bet NBC's end would not be so easily escaped. This doesn't seem right to me.

[smak]

Ditto, substituting "Leno" for "Conan". It all works both ways. That was the point, all along.



How can you substitute Leno for Conan. We have no idea what Leno thinks, because he hasn't said anything.

Taking a guess, would you say moving Leno to 11:35 is something Leno would like, or dislike?

We already have Conan on record saying he dislikes the idea of 12:05.

-smak-

[marksman]

He's not just "appealing to people's emotional side." Both sides are arguing about what words in a contract mean.

The parties are setting up an argument about the correct definition of the phrase "The Tonight Show" as it is used in that contract. Conan is appealing to extrinsic evidence to inform the definition of that term.

Conan's argument is that the parties, when they were negotiating the contract, both knew what "The Tonight Show" was. His argument is that it would have been absurd for Conan to demand, and for both Conan AND NBC to spend so much time, energy and money negotiating, over a show called "The Tonight Show" if all that meant was just slapping that name on any show at any time of the day or night. IOW, he's arguing that that's not what either of the parties intended when they negotiated the agreement.

You are free to disagree with it. There are legitimate arguments on the other side, too. But Conan's is a perfectly legitimate legal argument. It's not completely emotional.

I think people are making arguments that there is no evidence to support.

It is highly unlikely that the contract specifically states "The Tonight Show, which can air any time NBC chooses", as Conan would have not agreed to that contract.

So it seems the most likely case is the situation is undefined, and thus Conan does have a good basis for a legal argument in disputing that a moved show would not be the tonight show. I just find it incredibly unlikely that Conan's lawyers would have accepted a contract that specifically detailed what was meant by "Tonight Show" and defined anything but what the "Tonight Show" has traditionally been.

Given Conan had most of the leverage at the time of the contract negotiation, seems pretty much impossible to believe. Who knows. I do know I have not seen anything to support any specific definition by either side, which means both sides have a case, and ultimately if they don't settle a court would decide what is meant by Tonight Show.

[marksman]

No: Conan is the only one trying to make a semantic and emotional argument about what "The Tonight Show" means. NBC is saying that there are parameters in the contract that refer to what time the program can be scheduled to air -- objective measures.

Please substantiate where someone from NBC has specifically said the contract clearly outlines what times they can air the Tonight Show, and that those times are not the times the Tonight Show is traditionally aired.

Clearly I have missed this piece of information. So please link to it.

[smak]

Conversely, Conan issued his statement, which seems to appeal to people's emotional side, when it says that "The Tonight Show" has always been at 11:35 and it just wouldn't be the same show at 12:05. Nothing specific about the contract, just the way he feels it should be.


This is not only Conan's emotional side, but plain common sense to, I would guess, a giant majority of the country.

Don't count out what the public feels about the whole mess as part of the equation.

As far as I remember, the whole "Late Shift" dirty laundry was aired long after the whole mess happened 15 years ago.

Now we seem to be getting that type of stuff in real time.

-smak-

[ElJay]

Taking a guess, would you say moving Leno to 11:35 is something Leno would like, or dislike?

Leno said in B&C a few months ago (http://www.broadcastingcable.com/article/366971-Jay_Leno_Talks_Back_An_Exclusive_Interview_With_B_C.php) that he was open to moving back to 11:35. TMZ reports his contract specifically states 10pm, so they'd have to negotiate something new with him. (Who knows whether or not they know what they're talking about.)

Do you want to go back to 11:35?

If it were offered to me, would I take it? If that's what they wanted to do, sure. That would be fine if they wanted to.

[timckelley]

I do hope that Conan wins, because I think he's funnier than Leno, but I just wonder what happens if the contract is legally determined to allow NBC to move the tonight show to 12:05. I guess they can force Conan to comply, or as a poster suggested, let him quit his contract, and they replace him.

[getreal]

I do hope that Conan wins, because I think he's funnier than Leno, but I just wonder what happens if the contract is legally determined to allow NBC to move the tonight show to 12:05. I guess they can force Conan to comply, or as a poster suggested, let him quit his contract, and they replace him.

Anything starting after midnight would be "The Tomorrow Show".

[getreal]

I suggest reruns of Carson's "The Tonight Show" rather than giving it to Faillon Fallon.

[Zevida]

However, visiting family in Florida right now, I hate having the 8-11 version of prime time.

Growing up on the east coast and now living in the central time zone I cannot get used to prime time starting at 7pm. It is just bizarre, weird and wrong.

I do wish I lived on pacific time for Sunday Night Football though!

[Amnesia]

I bet NBC's end would not be so easily escaped. This doesn't seem right to me.Again, I'm just making assumptions, but I would imagine that NBC wouldn't see the point in trying to get some kind of monetary concession out of Conan, especially if Conan leaving gives them their ideal situation (Jay back at The Tonight Show) instead of having Conan around and having to figure out what to do with him...

[aindik]

Anything starting after midnight would be "The Tomorrow Show".

On the other side of that:
a) It would start at 11:05 in half the country (measured by land mass - much less than half measured by population).
b) More than half of the current "Tonight" show airs in the morning.
c) The show Conan hosted for 16 years was called "Late Night." It aired entirely in the morning.

[sonnik]

I suggest reruns of Carson's "The Tonight Show" rather than giving it to Faillon Fallon.

If you get Reelz channel (I know that it's on DirecTV) - they do offer "Carson's Comedy Classics" from time to time. (Not the infomercial for buying DVDs, but the actual syndicated "Best of" episodes, which mostly have content from the 80's).

[marksman]

Here is a good post on the Huffington Post about what has happened to NBC and how all this ties in (And just for you Bicker, why the profit at all costs have destroyed their network):

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/chez-pazienza/nbc-and-zucker-the-downwa_b_421130.html

[bicker]

I thought the current position is that there are no time slot parameters in the contract and all it says is "The Tonight Show."Nope, that is not the "current position"

Obviously if he specifically agreed that he could be on at 12:05, that's different.That's what people have been trying to tell you. The condition was reported to have been put in that way to provide NBC the kind of flexibility it would need.

[bicker]

Clearly I have missed this piece of information. So please link to it.NBC's contract with O'Brien reportedly allows the network to move "Tonight" to 12:05 a.m. EST but no later, at the risk of substantial financial penalties. With a two-year contract said to be valued at about $28 million per year, O'Brien would have to think hard about walking away.[Source: Associated Press.]
http://www.idahostatesman.com/entertainment/story/1035107.html

[DevdogAZ]

He's not just "appealing to people's emotional side." Both sides are arguing about what words in a contract mean.

The parties are setting up an argument about the correct definition of the phrase "The Tonight Show" as it is used in that contract. Conan is appealing to extrinsic evidence to inform the definition of that term.

Conan's argument is that the parties, when they were negotiating the contract, both knew what "The Tonight Show" was. His argument is that it would have been absurd for Conan to demand, and for both Conan AND NBC to spend so much time, energy and money negotiating, over a show called "The Tonight Show" if all that meant was just slapping that name on any show at any time of the day or night. IOW, he's arguing that that's not what either of the parties intended when they negotiated the agreement.

You are free to disagree with it. There are legitimate arguments on the other side, too. But Conan's is a perfectly legitimate legal argument. It's not completely emotional.
I think you missed my point and focused entirely on the word "emotional" in my post. My point was that NBC is talking specifics, and Conan is arguing about interpretation. The parol evidence rule will dictate that the actual written contract, as signed by the parties, is what governs. Since it appears that the contract doesn't specify a specific timeslot for "The Tonight Show," NBC's argument is that moving the show back 30 minutes and still calling it by the same name fulfills the contract. Given the parol evidence rule, that seems like a much easier argument than what Conan is trying to say, which is that we should incorporate all kinds of extrinsic evidence to determine what is meant by "The Tonight Show."
Really? So in fact, his end of the contract is not enforced, and for practical purposes doesn't exist? I bet NBC's end would not be so easily escaped. This doesn't seem right to me.
NBC would likely just let him walk to avoid the PR nightmare. Not only are people pissed about this whole thing, and it's likely going to hurt NBC, it would get much worse if NBC then sued Conan for millions of dollars. In the court of public opinion, an employee suing a giant corporation is hailed, while a corporation suing an employee is vilified. Thus, NBC is not likely to sue Conan for walking away.

[netringer]

It gets mo' fun yet!

Sources close to former 'Tonight Show' host Jay Leno tell me he is furious with the way NBC has treated him and Conan O'Brien and is considering walking away from the entire mess with his head held high. "Now that Conan has made it clear he is leaving the troubled network, Jay is considering doing the same.

http://www.popeater.com/2010/01/13/jay-leno-leaving-nbc/?pimped


Well...maybe NBC can hire Craig Kilborn to host the Tonight Show to achieve the total suckage they so richly deserve.

"Enough of my talking about me. What do you think about me?"

The Comcast buyout deal is cancelled in 3,2,1...

[DevdogAZ]

Nope, that is not the "current position"

That's what people have been trying to tell you. The condition was reported to have been put in that way to provide NBC the kind of flexibility it would need.
Bicker, I think you're mistaken here. The story has evolved. NBC's original position was that it could move The Tonight Show to 12:05. The early speculation was that this would be allowed because there was a specific clause in the contract allowing that. However, the story then changed when NBC confirmed that there was no language in the contract specifying timeslot at all. Thus, NBC's interpretation is that, as long as the show is called "The Tonight Show," it fulfills the technical definition of the contract. Conan's interpretation is that "The Tonight Show" has always immediately followed the late local news at 11:35 pm, so anything other than that would not meet the historic definition of "The Tonight Show."

It think it's been a couple of days since anyone claimed there was a 12:05 clause in the contract.

[bicker]

Bicker, I think you're mistaken here. The story has evolved. NBC's original position was that it could move The Tonight Show to 12:05. The early speculation was that this would be allowed because there was a specific clause in the contract allowing that. However, the story then changed when NBC confirmed that there was no language in the contract specifying timeslot at all.Someone should tell the Associated Press to update their news article. Since I've now provided a link, could you now please provide a link showing that they've deliberately contradicted that earlier statement?

Regardless, at least now Marksman has the source information which he wanted.

[DevdogAZ]

I choose not to believe that article. I'm basing that on the fact that it seems to be a lot of rumor. If Jay was so concerned about Conan's well being, he wouldn't have made his remarks in the B&C Interview (http://www.broadcastingcable.com/article/366971-Jay_Leno_Talks_Back_An_Exclusive_Interview_With_B_C.php).
As I've said before, I don't see that comment as him stabbing Conan in the back. He was simply stating the truth, that he would have preferred to stay at 11:35 and that if NBC asked him to go back there, he would do so. His comment was saying, "I want NBC to screw over Conan." His comment was simply stating that "If NBC makes the decision to move me back to 11:35, for whatever reason, I would accept that."

However, because of the way NBC has handled this mess, making Leno look like the bad guy, he's justifiably pissed. NBC is simply trying to avoid paying the buyout clause to either host, and they're favoring Leno because of his historically stronger ratings. But that shouldn't be viewed as something that Leno is doing wrong.

[aindik]

I think you missed my point and focused entirely on the word "emotional" in my post. My point was that NBC is talking specifics, and Conan is arguing about interpretation.

I disagree. Neither is talking about specifics and both are arguing about interpretation. NBC is saying "The Tonight Show" means any show on NBC with that name. Conan is saying "The Tonight Show" is a show on NBC that's on immediately after the late local news. AFAWK, the contract doesn't define the term - it just uses the term. Both sides are arguing about what the term means.

The parol evidence rule will dictate that the actual written contract, as signed by the parties, is what governs. Since it appears that the contract doesn't specify a specific timeslot for "The Tonight Show," NBC's argument is that moving the show back 30 minutes and still calling it by the same name fulfills the contract. Given the parol evidence rule, that seems like a much easier argument than what Conan is trying to say, which is that we should incorporate all kinds of extrinsic evidence to determine what is meant by "The Tonight Show."

The applicability of the parol evidence rule often turns on whether a term of the contract is ambiguous. Would you say the term "The Tonight Show," all by itself, is ambiguous or unambiguous? I think Conan has a good argument that the term is ambiguous.

[Amnesia]

"Plus, what happens when Jay does return to the 11:35 slot if his audience doesn't immediately follow? How can he possibly trust the same network that canceled Conan after only seven months?"Why does Jay need to trust NBC? Unlike Conan, he's not being asked to change anything whatsoever. If Jay moves back to The Tonight Show and it fails, he just walks away. He certainly doesn't need the money...

[morac]

The Comcast buyout deal is cancelled in 3,2,1...

Not likely. Comcast doesn't really even want NBC (the channel), it simply wants all the cable networks that are part of NBC-U.

[bicker]

Yup, this will (and this is what GE is worried about) only reduce the price of the acquisition.

[DevdogAZ]

Someone should tell the Associated Press to update their news article. Since I've now provided a link, could you now please provide a link showing that they've deliberately contradicted that earlier statement?

Regardless, at least now Marksman has the source information which he wanted.
That's a story dated last Saturday, and it states:
NBC's contract with O'Brien reportedly allows the network to move "Tonight" to 12:05 a.m. EST but no later, at the risk of substantial financial penalties.
(emphasis mine)

As I said, the story has evolved since then, and now the prevailing reports are that reports of the 12:05 clause were incorrect, but that NBC was relying on the lack of any time slot language in the contract to justify its move.

Edit: I posted the NY Times article (http://www.nytimes.com/2010/01/12/business/media/12conan.html) from Tuesday in post #134 (http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?p=7716851&highlight=times#post7716851) of this thread. The relevant portion of that article states:
Despite the fact that Mr. O’Brien is being ejected from the 11:35 p.m. time period he was given in June and pushed to after midnight to make room for Jay Leno, NBC executives are expressing confidence that the network has not breached Mr. O’Brien’s contract.

The reason? The contract, NBC is arguing, guaranteed Mr. O’Brien would be installed as host of “The Tonight Show” — and unlike many other deals for late-night stars, Mr. O’Brien’s contract contains no specific language about the time period the show would occupy, NBC executives said. NBC has said Mr. O’Brien’s relocated show would be called “The Tonight Show.”

[netringer]

Great, now a third thread to follow. :p

Good riddance Jay! Welcome back Conan!

And a smeek.

http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?p=7719373#post7719373

Mods! Merge threads please!

[aindik]

Another vote for merging the threads.

[Wil]

"The Tonight Show" has always immediately followed the late local news at 11:35 pmThe Tonight Show has in its history been scheduled at Eastern time 11:15, 11:30 and 11:35 (and a period of time when it started at 11:15 and then AGAIN at 11:30 for a pickup audience in areas where local news ran a half hour. There may have been other starting times. But it has never been regularly scheduled to start the next morning.

Contrary to what has been widely reported, it has been "The Tonight Show" since the early 1950s. Promos and title cards have referred to it as other things, e.g. The Jack Paar Show, The Tonight Show with Johnny Carson, etc., but the actual name of the show was The Tonight Show.

[Rocketslc]

Maybe Letterman will finally get the Tonight Show.




Yeah this is probably a smeek from one of the many threads

[DevdogAZ]

Speaking of "prime time", since Jay is moving back to 11:35 (ET/PT), doesn't that mean that NBC won't be able to charge advertisers as much since Jay will no longer be in prime time?
Advertisers do not buy ads by show, they buy ads based on timeslot. So any ads purchased for the 10 pm slot that Leno is vacating will then air during whatever NBC replaces Leno with. The ads won't follow Leno's show to 11:35. Similarly, the ads purchased for Conan's show at 11:35 will now be shown during Leno's new show.

[smak]

I think you missed my point and focused entirely on the word "emotional" in my post. My point was that NBC is talking specifics, and Conan is arguing about interpretation. The parol evidence rule will dictate that the actual written contract, as signed by the parties, is what governs. Since it appears that the contract doesn't specify a specific timeslot for "The Tonight Show," NBC's argument is that moving the show back 30 minutes and still calling it by the same name fulfills the contract. Given the parol evidence rule, that seems like a much easier argument than what Conan is trying to say, which is that we should incorporate all kinds of extrinsic evidence to determine what is meant by "The Tonight Show."



Conan's legal team will argue interpretation for contract negotiations.

Conan, the talent, doesn't need any interpretation. To him Tonight Show = 11:30 and nothing else.

-smak-

[Hansky]

The applicability of the parol evidence rule often turns on whether a term of the contract is ambiguous. Would you say the term "The Tonight Show," all by itself, is ambiguous or unambiguous? I think Conan has a good argument that the term is ambiguous.

Good theory. The thousands of shows produced in the last 50+ years should be defined in part by the days and times they aired. Maybe the actors can scream breach of contract when a show is move? Ridiculous. There is very little chance the show is not defined in any contracts at issue.

[DevdogAZ]

Conan's legal team will argue interpretation for contract negotiations.

Conan, the talent, doesn't need any interpretation. To him Tonight Show = 11:30 and nothing else.

-smak-
Of course that's Conan's personal opinion. But unfortunately the situation has progressed past the point where his personal opinion is relevant.

[smak]

Of course that's Conan's personal opinion. But unfortunately the situation has progressed past the point where his personal opinion is relevant.

Relevant for any kind of monetary compensation based on his contract, maybe not.

Relevant for whether he will ever do a 12:05 show on NBC, absolutely 100%.

-smak-

[aindik]

Good theory. The thousands of shows produced in the last 50+ years should be defined in part by the days and times they aired.

Good logic. Because one show is defined in part by its time slot, every show is.

Maybe the actors can scream breach of contract when a show is move? Ridiculous.

Do the actors have clauses in their contract guaranteeing them that the show will air? I bet not.

There is very little chance the show is not defined in any contracts at issue.

Since we don't have copies of the contract, we're obviously left to speculate about that.

[smak]

Advertisers do not buy ads by show, they buy ads based on timeslot.

Say what?

-smak-

[aindik]

Of course that's Conan's personal opinion. But unfortunately the situation has progressed past the point where his personal opinion is relevant.

He's one of the parties to the contract. What the parties had in mind when the contract was signed is relevant. (What he has in mind now is not so relevant).

[DevdogAZ]

Say what?

-smak-
OK, let me clarify. Advertisers buy ads by the show and timeslot, but the way I understand it to work is that if the show is moved to a different timeslot, the purchased ads don't follow it. They stay with the timeslot. Networks don't return ad buys when a show is canceled or pre-empted. They simply use those same ads purchased for that slot. Based on the ratings, they figure out later whether they provided enough eyeballs to their advertisers or whether they'll have to refund any money.

Of course, this is just the way I've always understood it to work. If I'm wrong, I'm happy to be corrected.

[DevdogAZ]

Can we agree that NBC and Conan are going to settle this thing one way or another long before this issue ever gets in front of a judge, so the legal rules for contract interpretation are unlikely to ever come into play?

[Hansky]

Good logic. Because one show is defined in part by its time slot, every show is.

Since you raise the issue of what parties believe - parties in the business of television - surely you would know that half century of history and many thousands of contract would be relevant? Apparently you do not.

Do the actors have clauses in their contract guaranteeing them that the show will air? I bet not.

This is relevant to the definition of the show? The parties know how to include provisions that require the show be aired, but the miss the boat on the time it is aired? This really helps the theory that a court would add something that is not there.

Since we don't have copies of the contract, we're obviously left to speculate about that.

No kidding.

[aindik]

Can we agree that NBC and Conan are going to settle this thing one way or another long before this issue ever gets in front of a judge, so the legal rules for contract interpretation are unlikely to ever come into play?

It won't actually get to court, no. But legal arguments that each party would/could have made in court almost always make their way into settlement negotiations.

[DLL66]

David Letterman is sitting back and laughing his butt off at this situation and relieved that he isn't in this mess again.

[DevdogAZ]

It won't actually get to court, no. But legal arguments that each party would/could have made in court almost always make their way into settlement negotiations.
Of course they do. And the strength of those arguments will play a large part in determining how the settlement negotiations proceed. My comment was merely pointing out that because this will never be debated in public and decided by a court of law, we'll never get any kind of concrete resolution as to how it would have played out. Therefore, it's pointless to continue speculating. We (think) we all understand each party's position, and we have our opinions of how the contract (as we understand it) should be interpreted. Further speculation on those points will be pointless unless NBC and Conan can't work out a deal and a lawsuit is filed.

[smak]

OK, let me clarify. Advertisers buy ads by the show and timeslot, but the way I understand it to work is that if the show is moved to a different timeslot, the purchased ads don't follow it. They stay with the timeslot. Networks don't return ad buys when a show is canceled or pre-empted. They simply use those same ads purchased for that slot. Based on the ratings, they figure out later whether they provided enough eyeballs to their advertisers or whether they'll have to refund any money.

Of course, this is just the way I've always understood it to work. If I'm wrong, I'm happy to be corrected.

Ok, that's better. :)

I think it depends on what moves into that timeslot.

To make up an extreme, if Lipstick Jungle takes over 24's timeslot, there are certain ads that are going to be incompatible with that show.

Even if the ratings are exactly the same, the types of viewers could be totally different.

Take movie ads. The latest RomCom is going to target Grey's Anatomy, The Bachelor, etc...and aren't going to want their ads on Fringe or Heroes. Even if the shows get the exact same ratings.

-smak-

[aindik]

Of course they do. And the strength of those arguments will play a large part in determining how the settlement negotiations proceed. My comment was merely pointing out that because this will never be debated in public and decided by a court of law, we'll never get any kind of concrete resolution as to how it would have played out. Therefore, it's pointless to continue speculating. We (think) we all understand each party's position, and we have our opinions of how the contract (as we understand it) should be interpreted. Further speculation on those points will be pointless unless NBC and Conan can't work out a deal and a lawsuit is filed.

If we didn't talk about things despite their being pointless, we wouldn't be here. :)

[Turtleboy]

Can we assume that there is probably confidential binding arbitration?

[aindik]

Ok, that's better. :)

I think it depends on what moves into that timeslot.

To make up an extreme, if Lipstick Jungle takes over 24's timeslot, there are certain ads that are going to be incompatible with that show.

Even if the ratings are exactly the same, the types of viewers could be totally different.

Take movie ads. The latest RomCom is going to target Grey's Anatomy, The Bachelor, etc...and aren't going to want their ads on Fringe or Heroes. Even if the shows get the exact same ratings.

-smak-

The advertisers don't buy on overall ratings. The overall ratings are for show. They buy on age and gender demographics. Whether the new show does or doesn't deliver the old show's ratings is a question of the in-demo ratings, not the overall ratings.

By that measure, Lipstick Jungle and 24 will never have the same ratings.

[smak]

Can we assume that there is probably confidential binding arbitration?

That has no chance of remaining confidential.

-smak-

[smak]

The advertisers don't buy on overall ratings. The overall ratings are for show. They buy on age and gender demographics. Whether the new show does or doesn't deliver the old show's ratings is a question of the in-demo ratings, not the overall ratings.

By that measure, Lipstick Jungle and 24 will never have the same ratings.

Yah, that's what I said.

-smak-

[netringer]

Time magazine's James Poniewozik deals with that question (http://tunedin.blogs.time.com/2010/01/13/nbcs-conanundrum-is-jay-the-smart-choice/), adroitly I think, in a blog post today. His summation:

Hard to argue with that.

One factor with Dave vs. Jay was which was the loyal company man, and Jay won that hands down. He probably still does. Like it was then, that means the suits like Jay more whether the audience does or not.

[aindik]

Can we assume that there is probably confidential binding arbitration?

I don't think we can safely assume that.

[Win Joy Jr]

And, given its track record, does anyone believe a thing that NBC says?

[daveak]

Onr factor with Dave vs. Jay was which was the loyal company man, and Jay won that hands down. He probably still does. Like it was then, that means the suits like Jay more whether the audience does or not.

Jay may be the loyal company man, but he is not sounding quite so loyal right now... though I love his digs at NBC.

[Rob Helmerichs]

And, given its track record, does anyone believe a thing that NBC says?
Then again, given Conan's track record, he was probably just joking. :D

[DeDondeEs]

I can't believe how much attention this topic is getting, 3 threads, and man there are some passionate posts, and heavy legal debates in those threads. Perhaps they should air these behind the scenes debates/negotiations on NBC as a reality show so they can get some ratings.....

[netringer]

I can't believe how much attention this topic is getting, 3 threads, and man there are some passionate posts, and heavy legal debates in those threads. Perhaps they should air these behind the scenes debates/negotiations on NBC as a reality show so they can get some ratings.....

Have Bill Carter adapt "The Late Shift" (Volume 1 and Volume 2) into a series.

[ToddNeedsTiVo]

Have Bill Carter adapt "The Late Shift" (Volume 1 and Volume 2) into a series.

...and air it at 10pm on NBC...I hear they have open time in their schedule. :D

[cmontyburns]

One factor with Dave vs. Jay was which was the loyal company man, and Jay won that hands down. He probably still does. Like it was then, that means the suits like Jay more whether the audience does or not.

I don't know that I agree with that. Part of the reason this mess has occurred is that Leno is holding NBC hostage, saying, essentially (and not unreasonably), if you don't keep me here, I'll go elsewhere and compete against you. NBC obviously was much more willing to call O'Brien's bluff (before he'd even made it) than Leno's, betting (perhaps) that Conan would be a good soldier and accept the de facto demotion.

Why? As Alan Sepinwall writes (http://www.nj.com/entertainment/tv/index.ssf/2010/01/conan_obrien_forces_nbcs_tonig.html):

Conan has always been a good soldier for NBC. He didn't complain when there were rumors the network wanted to replace him with Greg Kinnear only months into his role as neophyte host of "Late Night."

He never angled, either in public or private, to take Jay Leno's job on "The Tonight Show" (as compared to the way Jay's camp worked to nudge Johnny Carson out of the chair in the '90s).

When NBC offered him "Tonight" five years in the future back in 2004, he agreed to wait patiently for the gig.

He didn't object when NBC started to realize they had made a mistake in getting rid of Leno and came up with a plan to put Jay in primetime five nights a week, even if "The Jay Leno Show" would undermine the primacy of Conan's "Tonight."

And ever since news broke late last week that NBC realized Jay-in-primetime was an even bigger fiasco, and that they wanted to move Jay back to 11:35, and push Conan's "Tonight" to 12:05, Conan remained quiet.

Not to mention the numerous special appearances that O'Brien did on behalf of the network, at press tour and other events.

[IJustLikeTivo]

Anything starting after midnight would be "The Tomorrow Show".

Which used to follow the tonight show. I could just as easily make the argument that since the majority of the tonight show airs after midnight, it was always misnamed. It used to air 11:30-1 AM and now airs 11:35 to 12:35. Either way more after than before midnight.

[DevdogAZ]

Can we assume that there is probably confidential binding arbitration?

I don't think we can safely assume that.
Agreed. We never put arbitration provisions into any of our contracts, and always advise our clients against using them. It's conceivable that the same mindset exists at NBC or at William Morris Endeavor.

[marksman]

How is that Leno holding NBC hostage?

They are the pea-brains who decided to early retire Jay, so Conan could get the Tonight Show. Then got all flustered when Jay did not want to retire.

Wanting to work for a living is not really holding someone hostage. Especially not after they canceled your show.

Neither Conan or Leno are to blame in this whole thing. All the responsibility lays at the feet of the NBC executives.

[marksman]

OK, let me clarify. Advertisers buy ads by the show and timeslot, but the way I understand it to work is that if the show is moved to a different timeslot, the purchased ads don't follow it. They stay with the timeslot. Networks don't return ad buys when a show is canceled or pre-empted. They simply use those same ads purchased for that slot. Based on the ratings, they figure out later whether they provided enough eyeballs to their advertisers or whether they'll have to refund any money.

Of course, this is just the way I've always understood it to work. If I'm wrong, I'm happy to be corrected.

That is the way the network wants it to work.

That is not always the way the advertiser wants it to work. Depending on the advertiser and the show, they may ask for a refund and to pull their commercials, they may let it ride with the new show and suffer adjustments.

TV is weird though, and you are right you essentially by time slots. That is why sweeps used to be so weird and the networks would put on all these lavish special events. They would use these sweeps ratings to set ad prices when they went back to their normal shows. It never made the least bit of sense from the standpoint of the advertisers.

I would say in general though, even though you buy based on time primarily, you also are potentially being sold a potential show, and I think in most cases if a show got canceled the advertiser would be able to pull their ads from being run. I don't know of many businesses that would agree to an ad spend contract that didn't allow for that.

[marksman]

I can't believe how much attention this topic is getting, 3 threads, and man there are some passionate posts, and heavy legal debates in those threads. Perhaps they should air these behind the scenes debates/negotiations on NBC as a reality show so they can get some ratings.....

What did leno say the other night?

NBC wanted to bring drama back to 10:00pm, and they did it.

The one thing I will give NBC credit for is even with their network in the toilet they have managed to garner themselves a massive amount of press for themselves in all of this. On top of that they have managed to work in that things will be changing AFTER the WINTER OLYMPICS on NBC in FEBRUARY.

So if someone dreamed all this up as a marketing stunt, hats off to them. :) Given their schedule they couldn't buy this much coverage with 10 years worth of ad revenue.

[ADent]

From my understanding Jay has 10pm in his contract - and is sitting on a bundle of his own cash. So he could walk and take NBC's money, and if the contract doesn't let him do that he can just walk and live off his big stash of cash.

Conan has said he is walking - but did he send a letter to NBC quitting? The letter I read was not a resignation letter, but more of negotiation letter.

Conan would be much better off at 12:05 and waiting out Jay another 6 months then quitting and walking away from that money. Unless he can get another 10:35 slot from ABC, he may be pulling a McLain Stevenson here.

As a viewer I would rather see 32 weeks of Conan and 20 weeks of Jay than all the reruns - but I think that would confuse a lot of people.

[aindik]

Conan has said he is walking - but did he send a letter to NBC quitting? The letter I read was not a resignation letter, but more of negotiation letter.

He said he wasn't going to do the Tonight Show at 12:05. He didn't say that he won't do a show at 12:05 (though, he did make reference to not wanting to bump Jimmy Fallon from 12:35).

His letter technically left open the possibility of working at 12:05, but not on "The Tonight Show" (and, of course, because NBC won't let him host "The Tonight Show," NBC owes him the oft-mentioned pile of money).

[cmontyburns]

How is that Leno holding NBC hostage?

They are the pea-brains who decided to early retire Jay, so Conan could get the Tonight Show. Then got all flustered when Jay did not want to retire.

Wanting to work for a living is not really holding someone hostage. Especially not after they canceled your show.

Leno has been needling NBC about replacing him on the Tonight Show -- a situation Leno agreed to -- since before the transition happened. He's been letting NBC know he has them over a barrel for a long time, regardless of what he agreed to do. Not, as I said before, that this is an unreasonable position for him to take.

[MickeS]

They should just have Gordon "Alf" Shumway take over The Tonight Show. We already know he can do it: http://www.hulu.com/watch/36695/alf-tonight-tonight

:)

And he knows about NBC and ratings too: http://www.hulu.com/watch/25944/alf-prime-time#s-p5-n2-so-i0

The Tanners become a TV-ratings family and ALF decides to rig the system so that his favorite program becomes a hit.

They even had a guy playing Brandon Tartikoff (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brandon_Tartikoff#Career_at_NBC) on that episode... couldn't help thinking of the current situation at NBC. :)

[smak]

Speaking of Conan's lawyers "messing up" by not putting 11:35 in the contract.

Didn't Leno's lawyers mess up by not guaranteeing him a much longer run at 10 pm.

NBC seems to be the ones that always wants to have their cake and eat it too. Why didn't Leno ask for a guarantee of 1 year. Or 18 months.

Makes you think...

-smak-

[smak]

I would say in general though, even though you buy based on time primarily, you also are potentially being sold a potential show, and I think in most cases if a show got canceled the advertiser would be able to pull their ads from being run. I don't know of many businesses that would agree to an ad spend contract that didn't allow for that.

I think initial ad rates heavily favor the "timeslot" aspect of it, and as a show gets more popular and has longevity, it veers away from that and tends to be based on the show itself.

-smak-

[smak]

From my understanding Jay has 10pm in his contract - and is sitting on a bundle of his own cash. So he could walk and take NBC's money, and if the contract doesn't let him do that he can just walk and live off his big stash of cash.

Conan has said he is walking - but did he send a letter to NBC quitting? The letter I read was not a resignation letter, but more of negotiation letter.

Conan would be much better off at 12:05 and waiting out Jay another 6 months then quitting and walking away from that money. Unless he can get another 10:35 slot from ABC, he may be pulling a McLain Stevenson here.

As a viewer I would rather see 32 weeks of Conan and 20 weeks of Jay than all the reruns - but I think that would confuse a lot of people.

Conan's going to go to 12:05 and again wait for Jay to leave 11:35? I really doubt that.

I don't think it's a negotiation letter, I think it's an ultimatum letter. NBC has nothing to negotiate with.

-smak-

[aindik]

Speaking of Conan's lawyers "messing up" by not putting 11:35 in the contract.

Didn't Leno's lawyers mess up by not guaranteeing him a much longer run at 10 pm.

NBC seems to be the ones that always wants to have their cake and eat it too. Why didn't Leno ask for a guarantee of 1 year. Or 18 months.

Makes you think...

-smak-

I read that Leno has an on-air guarantee in his contract, though not specifically at 10 p.m. He didn't really want to be at 10 p.m. anyway. He wanted to stay at/go back to 11:30.

[gastrof]

Speaking of Conan's lawyers "messing up" by not putting 11:35 in the contract...

Isn't Conan now saying that the contract does say, tho', that the Tonight Show is to air "after the local news"?

Sounds like 11:35pm to me.

[Rob Helmerichs]

Well, it could be argued that 12:05 is after the local news... :D

[JLucPicard]

He said he wasn't going to do the Tonight Show at 12:05. He didn't say that he won't do a show at 12:05 (though, he did make reference to not wanting to bump Jimmy Fallon from 12:35).

His letter technically left open the possibility of working at 12:05, but not on "The Tonight Show" (and, of course, because NBC won't let him host "The Tonight Show," NBC owes him the oft-mentioned pile of money).
I understand that all of this is in reference to time slots/demographics/lead-ins, etc., but it always cracks me up to see things stated this way because in reality, he would still be "working" at the same time he does everyday - sometime in the afternoon! ;)


And if anything good comes of all this, hopefully it will be getting rid of Carson Daly all together. Not that I watched his stuff on purpose, but the whole "sitting at the computer when Jimmy Fallon ends" thing. Can't stand that guy.

[aindik]

Isn't Conan now saying that the contract does say, tho', that the Tonight Show is to air "after the local news"?

Sounds like 11:35pm to me.

He says that's what "The Tonight Show" is. He didn't say that the contract actually says that that's what "The Tonight Show" is.

[JYoung]

And if anything good comes of all this, hopefully it will be getting rid of Carson Daly all together. Not that I watched his stuff on purpose, but the whole "sitting at the computer when Jimmy Fallon ends" thing. Can't stand that guy.

I feel the same way about Jimmy Fallon.
I watched his show last night because Ringo Starr was on it and Fallon was just embarrassingly bad.
It's sad when Ringo Starr is funnier than you are.

[freeze12]

Get rid of all the boring talk show morons!!

[JYoung]

Speaking of Conan's lawyers "messing up" by not putting 11:35 in the contract.

Didn't Leno's lawyers mess up by not guaranteeing him a much longer run at 10 pm.

NBC seems to be the ones that always wants to have their cake and eat it too. Why didn't Leno ask for a guarantee of 1 year. Or 18 months.

Makes you think...

-smak-

I read that Leno has an on-air guarantee in his contract, though not specifically at 10 p.m. He didn't really want to be at 10 p.m. anyway. He wanted to stay at/go back to 11:30.

I thought that the scuttlebutt was that Leno had a "Play or Pay" clause for two years.

[dtle]

All these "BIH NBC" and second-guessing, BUT...

What would you have done given the situation a year ago:
a) Leno ending his contract but still wanted to work, either keep him or he moves to a rival network
b) Conan is owed alot of money if he didn't get The Tonight Show, and probably would move to a rival network.

I really don't blame them for trying to keep both, and save some money in the process.

[DevdogAZ]

Speaking of Conan's lawyers "messing up" by not putting 11:35 in the contract.

Didn't Leno's lawyers mess up by not guaranteeing him a much longer run at 10 pm.

NBC seems to be the ones that always wants to have their cake and eat it too. Why didn't Leno ask for a guarantee of 1 year. Or 18 months.

Makes you think...

-smak-

I thought that the scuttlebutt was that Leno had a "Play or Pay" clause for two years.
This. That's why NBC is offering Leno the 11:35 slot, because if they can him outright, they have to pay him a pile of cash. Leno will renegotiate his contract if they put him at 11:35, but not if they put him at 12:35 or somewhere else.

(Can't we merge these threads? I feel like I keep having the same conversation over and over again.)

[smak]

I read that Leno has an on-air guarantee in his contract, though not specifically at 10 p.m. He didn't really want to be at 10 p.m. anyway. He wanted to stay at/go back to 11:30.

That's where the "makes you think" came from.

-smak-

[fmowry]

Conan invited Howard Stern to be a guest. It'll be interesting to see if he accepts. He's seriously considering it even though he's been loyal to Letterman for quite some time.

I just hear a clip of Rosie O'Donell's show on Sirius. She really ripped Leno. It seems like a lot of comedians are hammering Jay.

Frank

[ElJay]

I thought Conan really dumped on Jay last night. Paraphrasing: You can dream to do anything and accomplish it as long as Jay Leno doesn't want to do it too.

Later on with Andy he did a hilarious look way back to a Tonight Show clip from August 2009, "when Barack Obama was president" and people were concerned about global warming and health care reform.

Kenneth the Page also came by to do a tour of the former location of The Tonight Show. Conan insisted he wasn't gone yet but these last few shows really do have a sort of "farewell and good luck" vibe to them.

[TiVo'Brien]

If Conan goes to Fox, I wonder if he'd be able to take the show's recurring skits with him, i.e. Twitter Tracker, In the Year 3000, Triumph the Insult Comic Dog, etc. Is that stuff the property of NBC?

[IJustLikeTivo]

Speaking of Conan's lawyers "messing up" by not putting 11:35 in the contract.

Didn't Leno's lawyers mess up by not guaranteeing him a much longer run at 10 pm.

NBC seems to be the ones that always wants to have their cake and eat it too. Why didn't Leno ask for a guarantee of 1 year. Or 18 months.

Makes you think...

-smak-

I think his lawyers did something smarter, they got him guaranteed pay. I believe it's a play or pay deal. Take him off, he still gets the money.

[IJustLikeTivo]

I thought Conan really dumped on Jay last night. Paraphrasing: You can dream to do anything and accomplish it as long as Jay Leno doesn't want to do it too.

That just makes Conan look bad. Jay did nothing to him, NBC screwed him over. Jay left ( wasn't happy but he left ) and was happy to go back to doing standup like he has done every weekend throughout his tonight show gig ( hardest working man in the business for sure ) and NBC drove a money truck up and begged him to come back. Who wouldn't accept that offer.

Bear in mind that Leno is long past caring about money. He said long ago that he makes all he needs just doing standup and he has never touched his TV money, it just goes in the bank. He did it cause he likes to work.

It does now appear that even Leno, who hates change, is fed up with NBC and may walk away too. Nice move NBC...

[pcguru83]

If Conan goes to Fox, I wonder if he'd be able to take the show's recurring skits with him, i.e. Twitter Tracker, In the Year 3000, Triumph the Insult Comic Dog, etc. Is that stuff the property of NBC?
If it's the property of anyone, my guess is it would be the property of Conaco (Conan's production company who all his staff are employees of).

[FilmCritic3000]

http://www.aintitcool.com/node/43630

Apparently Fallon's going on Lamo's show for his 10@10 segment, whatever that is.

And here's Fallon's non-take on the late night wars...

http://watching-tv.ew.com/2010/01/14/conan-obrien-david-letterman-jimmy-fallon/

[FilmCritic3000]

BTW, I just ordered one of these.

http://imwithcoco.myshopify.com/products/im-with-coco

http://i187.photobucket.com/albums/x18/jasoncinema/coco_large.jpg

[FilmCritic3000]

http://www.aintitcool.com/node/43630

Apparently Fallon's going on Lamo's show for his 10@10 segment, whatever that is.

And here's Fallon's non-take on the late night wars...

http://watching-tv.ew.com/2010/01/14/conan-obrien-david-letterman-jimmy-fallon/

[FilmCritic3000]

BTW, I just ordered one of these.

http://imwithcoco.myshopify.com/products/im-with-coco

http://i187.photobucket.com/albums/x18/jasoncinema/coco_large.jpg

[ElJay]

That just makes Conan look bad. Jay did nothing to him, NBC screwed him over. Jay left ( wasn't happy but he left ) and was happy to go back to doing standup like he has done every weekend throughout his tonight show gig ( hardest working man in the business for sure ) and NBC drove a money truck up and begged him to come back. Who wouldn't accept that offer.

Bear in mind that Leno is long past caring about money.

Leno did nothing? I think if he did nothing he'd be on the stand-up circuit telling his Clinton jokes instead of accepting the 10pm show that kicked off this current problem. Even that would be all fine and dandy if Leno said no thanks to moving back to 11:35 during these current shenanigans and decided to head off to the stand-up circuit next month. Instead he seems perfectly ready to displace Conan from his current position. I guess Leno figures this is OK since he feels Conan pushed him out to begin with, even though Leno agreed to this succession plan in 2004.

[Amnesia]

Apparently Fallon's going on Lamo's show for his 10@10 segment, whatever that is."Lamo"? Really?
What---are you 5 years old?

Leno did nothing?So you think what Leno did wrong was to accept a job that offered to him (show @10)? And then he compounded the problem by being willing to do a show at 11:35? Wow---he's evil! He must be stopped!

[bicker]

NBC seems to be the ones that always wants to have their cake and eat it too.Everyone does. All the time. In all things having to do with business. Leno, O'Brien, NBC, etc., all want the best arrangement that they can negotiate. And so should you.

[bicker]

Can we agree that NBC and Conan are going to settle this thing one way or another long before this issue ever gets in front of a judge, so the legal rules for contract interpretation are unlikely to ever come into play?Well, they'll still come into play, since they reflect what would govern the course of last resort.

[Langree]

NBC drove a money truck up and begged him to come back. Who wouldn't accept that offer.

Bear in mind that Leno is long past caring about money.

So... he does care.

If he really wanted to do what's fair and right he'd admit he tried and failed, leave Conan to the Tonight Show and walk away.

After all it's not about the money.


I wonder what Carson would think of this mess.

[FilmCritic3000]

"Lamo"? Really?
What---are you 5 years old?

No, but that's the demo Leno's "comedy" appeals to.

[Hoffer]

Growing up on the east coast and now living in the central time zone I cannot get used to prime time starting at 7pm. It is just bizarre, weird and wrong.

I do wish I lived on pacific time for Sunday Night Football though!



See, I'm just the opposite. The idea of the 9:00 pm central show coming on at 10:00 pm seems way weird to me. I rarely stay up past 10:30. To have to stay up until 11:00 to watch a primetime show seems way late to me. So, I never watch any of these late night shows live. I haven't seen Jay Leno in a hundred years.

I also think it would be cool to be on pacific time. Monday Night Football ending before my bedtime would be pretty cool. I went to a MNF game in Tampa once like 10 years ago. The game didn't get over until like midnight or something. That was frickin crazy!!

[aindik]

That just makes Conan look bad. Jay did nothing to him, NBC screwed him over. Jay left ( wasn't happy but he left ) and was happy to go back to doing standup like he has done every weekend throughout his tonight show gig ( hardest working man in the business for sure ) and NBC drove a money truck up and begged him to come back. Who wouldn't accept that offer.

He left, but he wasn't going to just go do standup. He was going to go do a late night show on another network. He agreed to give up the Tonight Show. He didn't agree to retire from television.

[dilbert27]

I cannot belive I am about to say this but I wonder if NBC considered taking a note from Fox and letting their stations have the 10:00 slot for their news and then move Jay to 10:35 and then leave Cohan at 11:35 this would solve the problems the stations had with Jay being the lead in for their news and also would solve the problem of having to move CoCo and the tonight show.

[JYoung]

http://www.aintitcool.com/node/43630

Apparently Fallon's going on Lamo's show for his 10@10 segment, whatever that is.



That story has been updated to say it's Jimmy Kimmel that will appear on Leno's.

[aindik]

I cannot belive I am about to say this but I wonder if NBC considered taking a note from Fox and letting their stations have the 10:00 slot for their news and then move Jay to 10:35 and then leave Cohan at 11:35 this would solve the problems the stations had with Jay being the lead in for their news and also would solve the problem of having to move CoCo and the tonight show.

I suggested that, too, way back when affiliates first started complaining about local news ratings. But I think Conan would object to that. His issue isn't that he's on after midnight. His issue is that he's on second rather than first.

[JYoung]

So... he does care.

If he really wanted to do what's fair and right he'd admit he tried and failed, leave Conan to the Tonight Show and walk away.

After all it's not about the money.



By your reasoning, Conan should also walk away because he's failing in doing the Tonight Show.

[Turtleboy]

I think the threat of Jay going to another network really wasn't real. CBS has Letterman. ABC has Nightline/Kimmel --the only thing left is Fox.

Currently, Fox only broadcasts from 8-10, and the affiliates have the valuable 10pm news slot and usually syndicated shows thereafter. I don't think Fox would have ever really wanted Jay.

First, he wouldn't get any decent carryings by the stations for years.

Second, a Network like CBS and NBC has to fill the time. Fox would be adding the time which would be a major undertaking, and every time they tried (Chevy Chase), it's been a failure.

Third, Leno is well beyond Fox's demographic.

The original sin was NBC's in offering Conan the Tonight Show 5 years ago. They wre afraid that Conan was going to leave then. They told him, stick around 5 years and you'll get the Tonight Show. Jay agreed to it. He could have said no, but he didn't. Five years later Jay decides he doesn't want to retire. NBC should have told him too effing bad -- go to Fox or whereever.

But they didn't. Jay forced them into this BS. He's at fault, and NBC's at fault.

[terpfan1980]

That just makes Conan look bad. Jay did nothing to him, NBC screwed him over. Jay left ( wasn't happy but he left ) and was happy to go back to doing standup like he has done every weekend throughout his tonight show gig ( hardest working man in the business for sure ) and NBC drove a money truck up and begged him to come back. Who wouldn't accept that offer.

Bear in mind that Leno is long past caring about money. He said long ago that he makes all he needs just doing standup and he has never touched his TV money, it just goes in the bank. He did it cause he likes to work.

It does now appear that even Leno, who hates change, is fed up with NBC and may walk away too. Nice move NBC...

Leno did nothing? I think if he did nothing he'd be on the stand-up circuit telling his Clinton jokes instead of accepting the 10pm show that kicked off this current problem. Even that would be all fine and dandy if Leno said no thanks to moving back to 11:35 during these current shenanigans and decided to head off to the stand-up circuit next month. Instead he seems perfectly ready to displace Conan from his current position. I guess Leno figures this is OK since he feels Conan pushed him out to begin with, even though Leno agreed to this succession plan in 2004.

I call B.S. on this too (as ElJay has). Jay was every bit the guy that pushed out Carson at the end of his run and now the same thing has happened to him but he's NOT just retiring quietly like Carson did. (That would be because Carson had 10x the class that Leno did all along. He left the network and never complained, threatened, or otherwise did anything that would damage The Tonite Show.)

[JYoung]

http://www.aintitcool.com/node/43630

Apparently Fallon's going on Lamo's show for his 10@10 segment, whatever that is.

And here's Fallon's non-take on the late night wars...

http://watching-tv.ew.com/2010/01/14/conan-obrien-david-letterman-jimmy-fallon/

http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?p=7720304#post7720304

I think the threat of Jay going to another network really wasn't real. CBS has Letterman. ABC has Nightline/Kimmel --the only thing left is Fox.

Currently, Fox only broadcasts from 8-10, and the affiliates have the valuable 10pm news slot and usually syndicated shows thereafter. I don't think Fox would have ever really wanted Jay.

First, he wouldn't get any decent carryings by the stations for years.

Second, a Network like CBS and NBC has to fill the time. Fox would be adding the time which would be a major undertaking, and every time they tried (Chevy Chase), it's been a failure.

Third, Leno is well beyond Fox's demographic.


You forgot about Joan Rivers and Arsenio Hall.
Stll, Fox may want to give it another go. They can book Hall, Chase, Alan Thicke, Dennis Miller, or Jonthon Brandmeir to follow him.

ABC could also cancel Nightline and push back Kimmel 30 minutes.
I don't know what Nightline's ratings are but I suspect it's a distant third. Leno would probably perform much better.


The original sin was NBC's in offering Conan the Tonight Show 5 years ago. They wre afraid that Conan was going to leave then. They told him, stick around 5 years and you'll get the Tonight Show. Jay agreed to it. He could have said no, but he didn't. Five years later Jay decides he doesn't want to retire. NBC should have told him too effing bad -- go to Fox or whereever.

But they didn't. Jay forced them into this BS. He's at fault, and NBC's at fault.

Leno didn't force them into anything. NBC went into this with their eyes wide open.

[aindik]

I think the threat of Jay going to another network really wasn't real. CBS has Letterman. ABC has Nightline/Kimmel --the only thing left is Fox.

I think he very easily could have gone to ABC or Fox.

Currently, Fox only broadcasts from 8-10, and the affiliates have the valuable 10pm news slot and usually syndicated shows thereafter. I don't think Fox would have ever really wanted Jay.

First, he wouldn't get any decent carryings by the stations for years.

You mean the affiliates wouldn't take his show? I don't think they have much of a choice, at least according to Fox executive Kevin Reilly's recent statements about Conan. According to him, Fox always reserves the right to take 11p to midnight back from the affiliates.

Second, a Network like CBS and NBC has to fill the time. Fox would be adding the time which would be a major undertaking, and every time they tried (Chevy Chase), it's been a failure.

Chevy Chase (and Magic Johnson) are not proven late night hosts like Leno is.

Third, Leno is well beyond Fox's demographic.

This is true, but I think the, as you said, alter kakers, would have preferred news at 10 and Leno at 11. Even better if they could start Leno at 10:30. TV networks don't have to go after the same demographics at all times of day.

[Langree]

By your reasoning, Conan should also walk away because he's failing in doing the Tonight Show.

But he's not stepping on other people to get what he wants, you act like Leno is to be held harmless in this. Maybe initially he was. But his actions now show nothing but selfishness in his motives, screw how it affects these other people.

[JYoung]

Conan invited Howard Stern to be a guest. It'll be interesting to see if he accepts. He's seriously considering it even though he's been loyal to Letterman for quite some time.



BTW, what's the over/under on John Melendez crawling back to Stern now?

[JYoung]

But he's not stepping on other people to get what he wants, you act like Leno is to be held harmless in this. Maybe initially he was. But his actions now show nothing but selfishness in his motives, screw how it affects these other people.

You make it sound like if Leno walked away now, O'Brien's ratings would zoom past Leno's old one.
I don't think that O'Brien ever beat Leno's Tonight Show ratings.

And how is Leno being selfish in wanting to work?

[lew]

Currently, Fox only broadcasts from 8-10, and the affiliates have the valuable 10pm news slot and usually syndicated shows thereafter. I don't think Fox would have ever really wanted Jay.

First, he wouldn't get any decent carryings by the stations for years.


This was addressed in several articles. Fox has O&O stations in major markets. Fox's contract with the affiliates gives Fox the right to make them carry a late night show.

That said Fox may decide syndicated shows are more profitable for the O&O stations and for the affiliates then a late night show. It's not clear if Fox wanted Jay or if they want Conan.

[pcguru83]

You make it sound like if Leno walked away now, O'Brien's ratings would zoom past Leno's old one.
I don't think that O'Brien ever beat Leno's Tonight Show ratings.

And how is Leno being selfish in wanting to work?
I've posted this several times now in various threads, and still believe it to be true--Conan was presented a very unique scenario. Never before had a late night host had to compete with a similar show on the same network, only an hour and a half before.

There is no doubt in my mind that Conan lost a good number of lead-in viewers. Heck, if the nightly news was hemorrhaging viewers, what makes you think the program that follows the nightly news was any different?

I maintain that we never saw an accurate picture of Conan's ratings potential on The Tonight Show.

[JYoung]

I've posted this several times now in various threads, and still believe it to be true--Conan was presented a very unique scenario. Never before had a late night host had to compete with a similar show on the same network, only an hour and a half before.

There is no doubt in my mind that Conan lost a good number of lead-in viewers. Heck, if the nightly news was hemorrhaging viewers, what makes you think the program that follows the nightly news was any different?

I maintain that we never saw an accurate picture of Conan's ratings potential on The Tonight Show.

Conan was getting beat by Letterman back in August of 2009 (http://www.cleveland.com/tv/index.ssf/2009/08/david_letterman_is_tops_in_lat.html).


With O'Brien, it has become a home for young viewers, and preciously few others. He's a particular hit among men up to age 34, and is winning among the 18-to-49-year-old demographic that NBC uses as the basis for its ad sales. Yet the show has lost 2 million viewers in a year: Jay Leno's "Tonight" averaged 4.6 million viewers each night during the last week of July 2008; a year later, O'Brien had 2.6 million.


Now at the time, O'Brien may have been winning in the 18 to 49 demographic but down 2 million viewers in a year is definitely a cause for concern.

[DevdogAZ]

Leno did nothing? I think if he did nothing he'd be on the stand-up circuit telling his Clinton jokes instead of accepting the 10pm show that kicked off this current problem. Even that would be all fine and dandy if Leno said no thanks to moving back to 11:35 during these current shenanigans and decided to head off to the stand-up circuit next month. Instead he seems perfectly ready to displace Conan from his current position. I guess Leno figures this is OK since he feels Conan pushed him out to begin with, even though Leno agreed to this succession plan in 2004.
Leno is under contract to NBC, wherein they have guaranteed that he'll have a show on the air for two years or they have to pay him a big termination fee. NBC canceled Leno's show due to affiliate pressure. They don't want to pay the termination fee. So what options do they have? The only viable one is the only one Leno would accept - moving back to 11:35. I'd love to hear someone suggest another reasonable alternative (Hint: it's not reasonable to suggest that Jay simply walk away, or that NBC pay his termination fee).
I cannot belive I am about to say this but I wonder if NBC considered taking a note from Fox and letting their stations have the 10:00 slot for their news and then move Jay to 10:35 and then leave Cohan at 11:35 this would solve the problems the stations had with Jay being the lead in for their news and also would solve the problem of having to move CoCo and the tonight show.
That's never going to happen. NBC makes its money selling ads on prime time TV shows. Why would they want to give up a timeslot in prime time in exchange for a time slot in late night where the ads bring in less revenue?

Also, as other's have pointed out, Conan would be just as furious as he is now if NBC moved Leno's show right before his, even if they didn't move Conan's show at all.
I've posted this several times now in various threads, and still believe it to be true--Conan was presented a very unique scenario. Never before had a late night host had to compete with a similar show on the same network, only an hour and a half before.

There is no doubt in my mind that Conan lost a good number of lead-in viewers. Heck, if the nightly news was hemorrhaging viewers, what makes you think the program that follows the nightly news was any different?

I maintain that we never saw an accurate picture of Conan's ratings potential on The Tonight Show.
There's definitely some logic to the idea that Leno's show likely siphoned off viewers from Conan's show, either because people watched Leno and didn't want to watch another late-night show, or because they didn't watch Leno, didn't watch their local NBC affiliate news, and therefore weren't on NBC when Conan's show aired.

But you can't deny the fact that Conan's ratings had plummeted to less than half of what Jay's ratings had been long before Leno's show ever started. If you look at the chart at TVbythenumbers.com (http://tvbythenumbers.com/2010/01/13/obrien-might-still-be-at-1135-if-team-conan-had-watched-the-tonight-show/38787), you'll see that from the beginning of June to mid-July, Conan's ratings dropped like a stone. People tried him out and many didn't like him.

So while it may be true that Conan was never allowed to reach his full potential, we do know that during the three+ months that he aired without Leno's show, his ratings suffered tremendously.

[pjenkins]

no clue if it's real: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2010/01/13/nbc-ceos-voicemails-for-c_n_422005.html

[gastrof]

This means, of course, that NBC must be destroyed for their inadequacies and replaced by a revival of the Dupont network.

There, Conan shall reign supreme.

[DevdogAZ]

no clue if it's real: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2010/01/13/nbc-ceos-voicemails-for-c_n_422005.html
It's a bit done by FunnyorDie.com. Funny, but not real.

[DevdogAZ]

That story has been updated to say it's Jimmy Kimmel that will appear on Leno's.
Now that's something I'll definitely watch.

[FilmCritic3000]

NBC Universal President Jeff Zucker Threatens To Ice Conan: "I'll Keep You Off The Air For 3 1/2 Years"

http://www.deadline.com/hollywood/jeff-zucker-threatens-to-ice-conan-ill-keep-you-off-the-air-for-3-12-years/

[FilmCritic3000]

NBC Universal President Jeff Zucker Threatens To Ice Conan: "I'll Keep You Off The Air For 3 1/2 Years"

http://www.deadline.com/hollywood/jeff-zucker-threatens-to-ice-conan-ill-keep-you-off-the-air-for-3-12-years/

[ElJay]

So you think what Leno did wrong was to accept a job that offered to him (show @10)? And then he compounded the problem by being willing to do a show at 11:35? Wow---he's evil! He must be stopped!

Bottom line is that NBC was in fear that Leno would compete against them (from where I don't know) so they tried to keep everybody. Leno chose to accept the 10pm show and still come on before Conan. That has failed, now NBC says it still wants Leno before Conan, and Leno says alright! I could understand the short-sightedness of the 10pm move, but this idea of moving "The Tonight Show" to 12:05, along with Leno's compliance in it, is nothing but "evil."

[DevdogAZ]

I guess it depends on what kind of non-compete clause is in Conan's current contract, and what California laws are regarding such non-compete clauses. In Arizona, which I am familiar with, I don't think they'd be able to get away with 3.5 years, but one to two years might be considered reasonable.

[DevdogAZ]

Bottom line is that NBC was in fear that Leno would compete against them (from where I don't know) so they tried to keep everybody. Leno chose to accept the 10pm show and still come on before Conan. That has failed, now NBC says it still wants Leno before Conan, and Leno says alright! I could understand the short-sightedness of the 10pm move, but this idea of moving "The Tonight Show" to 12:05, along with Leno's compliance in it, is nothing but "evil."
And your opinion is nothing but hatred of Leno. Please answer the question I posed earlier in response to you. Provide what you believe is a reasonable solution to this problem. Should NBC agree to pay Leno a contract buyout that some outlets are reporting to be as high as $80 million? Should Leno agree to give up that money and just walk away, out of the goodness of his heart? Should NBC agree to pay Conan a large buyout clause and let him go compete with them? Basically, there's no answer to any of these questions that is reasonable, yet fits in with your anti-Leno bias. So you simply resort to calling him "evil" without any facts to back it up.

[aindik]

And your opinion is nothing but hatred of Leno. Please answer the question I posed earlier in response to you. Provide what you believe is a reasonable solution to this problem. Should NBC agree to pay Leno a contract buyout that some outlets are reporting to be as high as $80 million? Should Leno agree to give up that money and just walk away, out of the goodness of his heart? Should NBC agree to pay Conan a large buyout clause and let him go compete with them? Basically, there's no answer to any of these questions that is reasonable, yet fits in with your anti-Leno bias. So you simply resort to calling him "evil" without any facts to back it up.

Give Leno the fourth hour of the Today show. Put him on the air live (in the east coast) from 10a-11a.

[5thcrewman]

This means, of course, that NBC must be destroyed for their inadequacies and replaced by a revival of the Dupont network.

There, Conan shall reign supreme.

It's the DuMont network!
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/9/97/Dumont.jpg

[gastrof]

NBC Universal President Jeff Zucker Threatens To Ice Conan: "I'll Keep You Off The Air For 3 1/2 Years"

http://www.deadline.com/hollywood/jeff-zucker-threatens-to-ice-conan-ill-keep-you-off-the-air-for-3-12-years/

This could well blow up in NBC's face. The "I'm with Coco" people are real.

Let's face it. Leno, on air, agreed to pass the baton to Conan several years ago.

When the time approached, he got cold feet, and instead of going along with what he'd agreed to, he started grumbling and talking about going elsewhere if he had to leave NBC.

They gave him 10PM to keep him. It didn't work ratings-wise, and now they're sticking it to Conan. People don't like it when corporate America does that to people.

Even people who like Jay will remember this, and it's gonna make bad blood between NBC and the viewers they so desperately want to keep/regain.

[ElJay]

And your opinion is nothing but hatred of Leno. Please answer the question I posed earlier in response to you. Provide what you believe is a reasonable solution to this problem.

So you simply resort to calling him "evil" without any facts to back it up.

As I've said before on this topic, I'm expressing my opinion, which is at least 99% of the discussion on this forum and especially this thread. I don't need a solution since I am not Jeff Zucker. I expect NBC will let Conan go to greener pastures and move Leno back to 11:35 like they apparently are dreaming for. Then I hope Conan whoops his ass over on Fox.

[FilmCritic3000]

This could well blow up in NBC's face. The "I'm with Coco" people are real.

Indeed they are.

http://www.deadline.com/hollywood/more-support-for-team-conan-vs-nbc/

There are plans for a protest rally in front of NBC studios in Burbank tomorrow for the whole "I'M WITH COCO" campaign.

[bicker]

This could well blow up in NBC's face.That's assuming (1) that it is the truth instead just a rumor started by someone who isn't an official source of official NBC information; and (2) that NBC actually does do what someone is claiming that they threatened. Even then, it only, as you said, "COULD" blow up in their face. It might just be forgotten by the vast majority just a few months down the road.

Let's face it. Leno, on air, agreed to pass the baton to Conan several years ago.Let's face it. Conan O'Brien failed to achieve Leno's Tonight Show ratings, and as a result lost the yet-even utterly vacuous (because it wasn't based on any explicit promises) claim he might have had.

NBC must do what is best for their owners, within the context of the legal obligations that they've made. Period. There is no other legitimate foundation, whatsoever, for any decisions that they may make in this regard. We can disagree about what will actually be best for their owners, but there is no defense for asserting that some other criteria applies.

And has been the case, all along, since before 2004, since back before Carson left, there is not necessarily any perfect answer; it may simply be a matter of choosing among a set of answers, each one of which represents a compromise with regard to one or more considerations.

[bicker]

NBC Universal President Jeff Zucker Threatens To Ice Conan: "I'll Keep You Off The Air For 3 1/2 Years"

http://www.deadline.com/hollywood/jeff-zucker-threatens-to-ice-conan-ill-keep-you-off-the-air-for-3-12-years/So claims Nikki Finke. I have seen no objective first-hand corroboration of that claim.

[bicker]

I guess it depends on what kind of non-compete clause is in Conan's current contract, and what California laws are regarding such non-compete clauses. In Arizona, which I am familiar with, I don't think they'd be able to get away with 3.5 years, but one to two years might be considered reasonable.Of course, state laws vary, but we can rest assured that state laws in CA, if they've ever thought about it in these terms, tend to favor the entertainment industry.

Beyond that, most state laws prohibit such conditions from preventing workers from making a reasonable living -- only Conan's mother would find that he couldn't make a reasonable living making public appearances instead of starring in a television show.

[aindik]

Of course, state laws vary, but we can rest assured that state laws in CA, if they've ever thought about it in these terms, tend to favor the entertainment industry.

Don't rest too assured. California is one of the most anti-non-compete-agreement states in the union. Especially in an employment context (as opposed to in the context of a sale of a business).

http://siegler.wordpress.com/2008/02/08/noncompete-agreements-in-california/

That said, we have no idea whether Conan's contract contains a choice of law clause that chooses the law of a different state (say, New York, where NBC is headquartered and where Conan lived when he signed the contract).

I also don't know to what extent courts in California (if that's where this ends up) will enforce the choice of law clause that requires them to enforce contracts that are "against public policy" in California, and whether non-compete agreements of this type fall into that category.

[JYoung]

Indeed they are.

http://www.deadline.com/hollywood/more-support-for-team-conan-vs-nbc/

I'm sure that Zucker and company are quaking in their boots.

[YCantAngieRead]

A related question.

Does anyone remember how Jay did in his first seven months at the helm of the Tonight Show?

I've been wondering that for a few days but I am too lazy to spend the time Googling to find out. :o

[DevdogAZ]

Give Leno the fourth hour of the Today show. Put him on the air live (in the east coast) from 10a-11a.
While I don't think those are options that Leno would agree to (remember, his contract says 10 pm, so he'd have to agree to any modification), I'm glad to see someone actually being realistic about this.

The fact of the matter is, I don't think there is any solution that NBC can pose that would be acceptable to Leno and let NBC keep their money, other than putting Leno back at 11:35. And since NBC doesn't want to pay the buyout to Leno, they're going to do what they need to do to prevent that.
This could well blow up in NBC's face. The "I'm with Coco" people are real.

Let's face it. Leno, on air, agreed to pass the baton to Conan several years ago.

When the time approached, he got cold feet, and instead of going along with what he'd agreed to, he started grumbling and talking about going elsewhere if he had to leave NBC.

They gave him 10PM to keep him. It didn't work ratings-wise, and now they're sticking it to Conan. People don't like it when corporate America does that to people.

Even people who like Jay will remember this, and it's gonna make bad blood between NBC and the viewers they so desperately want to keep/regain.
I agree that people don't like what's happening, and the perception will always be that Conan got screwed. The problem I have is with people claiming that it's Leno doing the screwing. I've asked multiple times what people expected Leno to do. The haters seem to believe that it would have been noble of him to take some kind of moral high road and simply retire when NBC said he should. That's simply not realistic or reasonable. Leno loves to work. He gets paid a ton of money to work. He was at the top of his profession and #1 in the ratings. NBC made a huge miscalculation in 2004 when they decided to push Leno out the door, and NBC tried to correct that mistake in 2008 when they announced that they were giving Leno a 10 pm show. That decision was yet another miscalculation by NBC, which has compounded the problem.

Here are the relevant time periods where people think Leno did something wrong. Please tell me what he realistically should have done differently:

2004: NBC promises Conan The Tonight Show in 2009 and tells Leno they won't be renewing his contract after that. Leno reluctantly agrees. What other choice did he have? Should he have fought NBC and forced them to give him a contract extension at that point? Is there another realistic alternative?

2008: Realizing that Leno's stint on The Tonight Show is soon ending, that Leno is still tops in the ratings, and that Leno has no desire to stop being a late-night TV host, even if it's on another network, NBC comes up with the "brilliant" plan to give Leno a new show in prime time and they offer to pay Leno $30-40 million per year. What should Leno have done in that situation? Should he have refused that offer and gone to another network to compete directly with The Tonight Show (for likely much less money)? Should he have refused that offer and gone on the road to do stand up (for significantly less money)? Should he have simply retired, despite the fact that someone was willing to pay him $30+ million per year to do something he loves? Is there another realistic alternative?

2010: Faced with a threatened affiliate revolt, NBC has no choice but to cancel Leno's 10 pm show. However, because of the contract they gave Leno, if they don't keep him on the air at 10 pm, they have to pay him a massive amount of money (reportedly as high as $80 million). Because Leno was guaranteed a specific timeslot, and NBC is no longer fulfilling their end of the contract, Leno can either sue NBC, or he can agree to a modification. He has the leverage here, and can decide what modification he agrees with. NBC isn't going to put him after Conan, when Leno has proven to be more popular in the ratings. NBC isn't going to put him on The Today Show, since that would be a waste of Leno's talent and he likely wouldn't agree to it. So NBC proposes a compromise, where Leno gives up half his show (drops to 30 minutes) and it airs at 11:35, bumping Conan back by 30 minutes. Leno agrees to this, because it keeps him on the air and it prevents NBC from having to pay him a huge buyout (remember, he'd rather tell jokes on late-night TV than get the money). Should Leno have refused NBC's proposal and spent the next few years in litigation over the buyout clause? Should Leno have offered to do a show after Conan's, despite the fact that viewers prefer Leno? Is there another realistic alternative?

I'd love to hear the realistic, reasonable opinions of some of the Leno haters in response to these real-world scenarios.

[BrandonRe]

Leno is under contract to NBC, wherein they have guaranteed that he'll have a show on the air for two years or they have to pay him a big termination fee. NBC canceled Leno's show due to affiliate pressure. They don't want to pay the termination fee. So what options do they have? The only viable one is the only one Leno would accept - moving back to 11:35. I'd love to hear someone suggest another reasonable alternative (Hint: it's not reasonable to suggest that Jay simply walk away, or that NBC pay his termination fee).


How about moving Leno's show to 12:35 to follow the existing shows?

[DevdogAZ]

A related question.

Does anyone remember how Jay did in his first seven months at the helm of the Tonight Show?

I've been wondering that for a few days but I am too lazy to spend the time Googling to find out. :o
I don't think the raw numbers will matter, because the landscape was vastly different in 1992, with little late-night competition from cable or even other broadcast networks. However, the fact is that Leno's numbers dropped after he took over from Carson, and they dropped again when Letterman's show started on CBS. It wasn't until 2.5-3 years after starting that Leno's ratings surpassed Lettermans.

Should NBC give Conan more time to find an audience? Absolutely. I think Conan is getting royally screwed here. But NBC is in the unenviable position of having two different late-night hosts under guaranteed contracts, neither of which wants to air behind the other. So NBC has to decide which one they think will get the best ratings today (or on March 1, when this new plan takes effect). Unfortunately for the "I'm with CoCo" crowd, Leno is going to get better ratings in the near term, and since that's all the longer that these execs can expect to keep their jobs, that's all they're worried about.

[DevdogAZ]

How about moving Leno's show to 12:35 to follow the existing shows?
Again, thanks for posing a reasonable suggestion. However, I don't think Leno would agree to air after Conan, and I don't think NBC would propose that, because Leno has proven that he gets more viewers in the 11:35 time slot. NBC has two hosts under guaranteed contracts, each of whom will only agree to air at 11:35. NBC has to decide which one is going to make them the most money. That's Leno.

[YCantAngieRead]

I don't think the raw numbers will matter, because the landscape was vastly different in 1992, with little late-night competition from cable or even other broadcast networks. However, the fact is that Leno's numbers dropped after he took over from Carson, and they dropped again when Letterman's show started on CBS. It wasn't until 2.5-3 years after starting that Leno's ratings surpassed Lettermans.

Should NBC give Conan more time to find an audience? Absolutely. I think Conan is getting royally screwed here. But NBC is in the unenviable position of having two different late-night hosts under guaranteed contracts, neither of which wants to air behind the other. So NBC has to decide which one they think will get the best ratings today (or on March 1, when this new plan takes effect). Unfortunately for the "I'm with CoCo" crowd, Leno is going to get better ratings in the near term, and since that's all the longer that these execs can expect to keep their jobs, that's all they're worried about.
That's a good point about the numbers. Still, I was idly wondering how long it really took Leno to find a stride. I was in college at the time and late-night TV wasn't exactly high on my priorities. :D

[gastrof]

...Let's face it. Conan O'Brien failed to achieve Leno's Tonight Show ratings...

Did Conan have the lead-in strength Leno had?

Would Leno have done as well in the same situation?

Your whole argument falls apart, and so there's nothing else to reply to.

[timckelley]

Give Conan the Tonight Show at the time it's supposed to air, and fire Leno from NBC, paying whatever contract penalties go with that. If Leno gets a job with Fox, so be it.

This is what will happen in my fantasy world, but somehow I doubt this is what will happen.

[bicker]

Let's face it. Conan O'Brien failed to achieve Leno's Tonight Show ratings...Did Conan have the lead-in strength Leno had? Would Leno have done as well in the same situation? Your whole argument falls apart, and so there's nothing else to reply to.Ridiculous. I wrote a statement you couldn't refute, so instead you decided to post sound bites that were irrelevant to the actual words that you were replying to, in a vain attempt to avoid the reality of what I wrote.

All that matters in business is results. Not excuses.

Welcome to the real world.

Your counter falls apart when you scroll back to the previous discussions of Conan's ratings.

In August of 2009, O'Brien had 2 million less viewers than Leno had in August of 2008.That too.

[DevdogAZ]

Give Conan the Tonight Show at the time it's supposed to air, and fire Leno from NBC, paying whatever contract penalties go with that. If Leno gets a job with Fox, so be it.
That's a reasonable solution, although one that NBC apparently doesn't consider realistic. Why fire a host who has proven he can get great ratings at 11:35 and pay him $80 million, when you could instead put him at 11:35 and improve your ratings.

This would be a lot cleaner if NBC would just pick one and pay the other one off. But from a business standpoint, why shouldn't they try to compromise and get the best possible deal from both hosts?

BTW, thanks to the mods for merging the threads. It was getting a little out of hand.

[JYoung]

Did Conan have the lead-in strength Leno had?

Would Leno have done as well in the same situation?

Your whole argument falls apart, and so there's nothing else to reply to.

Your counter falls apart when you scroll back to the previous discussions of Conan's ratings.

In August of 2009, O'Brien had 2 million less viewers than Leno had in August of 2008.

[pcguru83]

Your counter falls apart when you scroll back to the previous discussions of Conan's ratings.

In August of 2009, O'Brien had 2 million less viewers than Leno had in August of 2008.
It's still not an accurate comparison. You can't compare the ratings of someone who has been in place for less than 3 months with a guy who had been in place for 10+ years. To expect Conan to come in and not skip a beat from Jay's stellar ratings is absurd and not realistic.

[disco]

Your counter falls apart when you scroll back to the previous discussions of Conan's ratings.

In August of 2009, O'Brien had 2 million less viewers than Leno had in August of 2008.But how many viewers did Leno have in his first seven months of hosting The Tonight Show? IIRC, he failed to beat Letterman in ratings for 2-3 YEARS. And that was with killer lead-ins like ER.

[pcguru83]

But how many viewers did Leno have in his first seven months of hosting The Tonight Show? IIRC, he failed to beat Letterman in ratings for 2-3 YEARS. And that was with killer lead-ins like ER.
Yes, exactly this too. :)

[IJustLikeTivo]

Leno did nothing? I think if he did nothing he'd be on the stand-up circuit telling his Clinton jokes instead of accepting the 10pm show that kicked off this current problem. Even that would be all fine and dandy if Leno said no thanks to moving back to 11:35 during these current shenanigans and decided to head off to the stand-up circuit next month. Instead he seems perfectly ready to displace Conan from his current position. I guess Leno figures this is OK since he feels Conan pushed him out to begin with, even though Leno agreed to this succession plan in 2004.

Please, are you really this naive?

Jay did not ask for the 10 O'clock show. NBC offered it.

He did not ask to be moved to 11:35. He said, as would any sane person, that if the slot were open, he would be happy to take it. So would Letterman, Craig Kilborn, Jimmy Fallon.... If Leno initiated any of the moves NBC made in the last 6-7 years, I've never seen it. Saying you'ld take it is no the same as asking. I think he did actively try to get the Tonight show but I think he was more interested in beating letterman than in actively moving against Johnny. Again, that move was made by NBC.

Every moronic thing done her was done by NBC for NBC.

[JohnB1000]

I'm finding this all very interesting :) How about a compromise (sorry if this is a smeek) keep the show on 52 weeks a year (no reruns) and give them half the year each, alternating weeks or similar or give them certain nights of the week.

I guess, as said, NBC wants to do whatever bring the highest ratings so those plans might not work.

[IJustLikeTivo]

So... he does care.

If he really wanted to do what's fair and right he'd admit he tried and failed, leave Conan to the Tonight Show and walk away.

After all it's not about the money.


I wonder what Carson would think of this mess.

What does fair have to do with this? As long as he behaves ethically, he can do what he wants. He hasn't actively tried to shaft anyone but once the knife is in Conan's back, Leno can't extract it. He's under no obligation to fall on his sword to make Conan feel better. All that does is make both of them lose their jobs.

[IJustLikeTivo]

He left, but he wasn't going to just go do standup. He was going to go do a late night show on another network. He agreed to give up the Tonight Show. He didn't agree to retire from television.

He left after they asked him to. To my knowledge, he was never in serious negotiations to do another show thought I imagine NBC was plenty worried. I mean, isn't that pretty much why they came up with the idiotic 10 PM thing in the first place? Personally, I think NBC was and is worried about something that isn't going to happen. ABC and CBS are fine with their late night offerings and Fox isn't really in a strong position to add one.

[JYoung]

It's still not an accurate comparison. You can't compare the ratings of someone who has been in place for less than 3 months with a guy who had been in place for 10+ years. To expect Conan to come in and not skip a beat from Jay's stellar ratings is absurd and not realistic.

But how many viewers did Leno have in his first seven months of hosting The Tonight Show? IIRC, he failed to beat Letterman in ratings for 2-3 YEARS. And that was with killer lead-ins like ER.

As DevdogAZ pointed, things were much different in 1992 with NBC willing to look more to the long term.
That does not appear to be the case now.

Plus, I don't think that Leno hemorrhaged over 40% of Carson's audience.

[bicker]

What does fair have to do with this? As long as he behaves ethically, he can do what he wants. He hasn't actively tried to shaft anyone but once the knife is in Conan's back, Leno can't extract it. He's under no obligation to fall on his sword to make Conan feel better. All that does is make both of them lose their jobs.Yes, very true. People are trying to impose their own personal preferences on Leno, on O'Brien, and/or on NBC, and none of that makes any sense whatsoever. This is business. What matters are the contracts, and that each party makes the decisions that are best for themselves long-term.

[IJustLikeTivo]

The original sin was NBC's in offering Conan the Tonight Show 5 years ago. They wre afraid that Conan was going to leave then. They told him, stick around 5 years and you'll get the Tonight Show. Jay agreed to it. He could have said no, but he didn't. Five years later Jay decides he doesn't want to retire. NBC should have told him too effing bad -- go to Fox or whereever.

But they didn't. Jay forced them into this BS. He's at fault, and NBC's at fault.

I agree that NBC is at fault but how is Jay in your scenario? He was willing to leave but he was under no obligation to retire. So deciding he was willing to continue working is what he's at fault for, correct?

OK, let's take that. He could move to cable, fox, etc. He never had serious discussions with anyone. Why? Easy, cause the numnuts at NBC got nervous and OFFERED HIM a new show. He never asked for it, nor did he initiate that discussion. NBC did. Sorry, NBC is the only party at fault here. They made all the stupid decisions and ultimately, they're the one who will really pay the price.

[ElJay]

Please, are you really this naive?

Jay did not ask for the 10 O'clock show. NBC offered it.

Nah, Leno said I don't want to retire and I'm going to compete against you guys at another network. NBC then said we want to keep everybody and here we are.

[Steveknj]

Yes, very true. People are trying to impose their own personal preferences on Leno, on O'Brien, and/or on NBC, and none of that makes any sense whatsoever. This is business. What matters are the contracts, and that each party makes the decisions that are best for themselves long-term.

People impose their personal preferences everytime they turn on (or off) one of these shows. :D Personal preferences are what are driving this business.

[JohnB1000]

I enjoyed Letterman's little joke when he was running through all the changes and said "Leno goes to 11:30, Conan gets all made and leaves and comes to CBS to replace me" It was the look on his face that sold it :)

[DevdogAZ]

As DevdogAZ pointed, things were much different in 1992 with NBC willing to look more to the long term.
That does not appear to be the case now.

Plus, I don't think that Leno hemorrhaged over 40% of Carson's audience.
To be fair to the "I'm with CoCo" crowd, NBC should be willing to look more to the long term. Unfortunately, due to their poor decision making in 2004 and 2008, they are now stuck with guaranteed contracts for two different premiere late night hosts, and they can't both air at the same time. So one either has to air behind the other, or one has to leave NBC. If NBC could go back in time and do things differently, I'm sure they'd like to give Conan several years to find his footing. However, that's not the reality of this situation, and so it doesn't reall matter whether NBC gave Leno a longer leash in the early 90s. NBC wasn't facing the same difficult situation then.

[bicker]

People impose their personal preferences everytime they turn on (or off) one of these shows. :D And that's really the correct avenue for imposing one's personal preferences -- not with regard to the decisions other people make, but rather with regard to the decision you yourself make.

[bicker]

To be fair to the "I'm with CoCo" crowd, NBC should be willing to look more to the long term.Who's to say that Conan O'Brien is "long-term"? Someone completely apart from everyone we've been talking about may be the best path forward. Regardless, NBC, itself, cannot look further forward than the acquisition, because its current obligations will effectively end at that point. All efforts must be focused on making the NBCU asset worth as much to Comcast as possible, and then let Comcast assert its own priorities once it takes over. That's the only responsible course of action in this scenario.

[IJustLikeTivo]

Indeed they are.

http://www.deadline.com/hollywood/more-support-for-team-conan-vs-nbc/

So, all the unemployed actors who show up will become never employed actors. Smooth.

[Test]

Plus, I don't think that Leno hemorrhaged over 40% of Carson's audience.

Different circumstances, Carson didn't take most of his audience to an earlier "tonight show" at 10pm. He retired and left his audience with his old program.

[JYoung]

To be fair to the "I'm with CoCo" crowd, NBC should be willing to look more to the long term. Unfortunately, due to their poor decision making in 2004 and 2008, they are now stuck with guaranteed contracts for two different premiere late night hosts, and they can't both air at the same time. So one either has to air behind the other, or one has to leave NBC. If NBC could go back in time and do things differently, I'm sure they'd like to give Conan several years to find his footing. However, that's not the reality of this situation, and so it doesn't reall matter whether NBC gave Leno a longer leash in the early 90s. NBC wasn't facing the same difficult situation then.

It's not like O'Brien was a novice either.
After all, he'd been doing Late Night for 16 years so he'd had plenty of practice doing a late night talk show.

I have no dog in this fight as I rarely watch either show and have no particular loyalty to any late night host.
And I find it highly amusing how emotional and irrational some posters are being about this fiasco.

But I agree with you that NBC is not thinking "long term".

IMO, NBC got themselves into this mess because they are and have been much more focused on the short term than the long term for a while.
I suspect a lot of this had to do with improving their bottom line to make themselves look more attractive to Comcast.

[JYoung]

Different circumstances, Carson didn't take most of his audience to an earlier "tonight show" at 10pm. He retired and left his audience with his old program.

Except that August of 2009 was before Leno's 10 PM show started airing.

[aindik]

Trade Leno and America's Got Talent to Fox for House, Lie to Me and a procedural drama to be named later.

[IJustLikeTivo]

Did Conan have the lead-in strength Leno had?

Would Leno have done as well in the same situation?

Your whole argument falls apart, and so there's nothing else to reply to.

Conan had the same lead in as Leno for 3.5 months before the Jay Leno show started. His ratings were always lower.

[DavidTigerFan]

Someone leaked (NBC Pres) Jeff Zucker's voicemails to Conan! (http://www.funnyordie.com/videos/216365ffd6/leaked-nbc-ceo-jeff-zucker-s-vociemails-for-conan-o-brien?rel=player)

[aindik]

Conan had the same lead in as Leno for 3.5 months before the Jay Leno show started. His ratings were always lower.

In August of 2008, Leno had been on the air in that time slot for 16 years. In August of 2009, Conan had been on for two months.

[IJustLikeTivo]

Nah, Leno said I don't want to retire and I'm going to compete against you guys at another network. NBC then said we want to keep everybody and here we are.

So, how is that Jay's problem? He never said he would retire from television, he just agreed to leave the tonight show. NBC unwisely assumed that meant he would leave TV altogether.

[Steveknj]

And that's really the correct avenue for imposing one's personal preferences -- not with regard to the decisions other people make, but rather with regard to the decision you yourself make.

Then thousands of lobbyists would be out of work, wouldn't they? I think people have the right to be vocal of their opinions both by not watching and by voicing their opinions so others listen. Vocal outpouring of opinions led to saving shows that otherwise would have been cancelled. Those same opinions have the right to help decide if a show SHOULD be cancelled. It's up to the network to either listen or not. Opinons influence other's decisions in a free society, don't they? SHOULDN'T they?

[IJustLikeTivo]

In August of 2008, Leno had been on the air in that time slot for 16 years. In August of 2009, Conan had been on for two months.

So? Conan had been on NBC for 16 years before he started. When Jay started, he had zero permanent hosting time. Conan is the most prepared host in the history of late night. In August, he has the same lead as Leno had and came nowhere near the same ratings. NBC let Conan build an audience the first time cause he was making didly squat in salary. They paid him just a bit more this time.

[timckelley]

Oh well, I guess if Leno is killing NBC (according to this thread title), might as well finish the job. Let NBC finish dieing, and something will rise from the ashes, I assume.

[Steveknj]

But I agree with you that NBC is not thinking "long term".

IMO, NBC got themselves into this mess because they are and have been much more focused on the short term than the long term for a while.
I suspect a lot of this had to do with improving their bottom line to make themselves look more attractive to Comcast.

Corporate America doesn't think long term much anymore...why should NBC be any different?

[JYoung]

Vocal outpouring of opinions led to saving shows that otherwise would have been cancelled. Those same opinions have the right to help decide if a show SHOULD be cancelled. It's up to the network to either listen or not.

In all honesty, fan protests that actually saved a show from being cancelled are the exception as opposed to the rule.

[TiVo'Brien]

I think the thing that started this whole ball rolling was back in 2002(?) Jay publicly saying something to the effect "When I'm 50-something my wife wants me to retire so we can spend more time together so that's what I'm going to do." That led NBC to start to groom Conan as Jay's replacement. Jay changed his mind now and that's what screwed up everything.

[timckelley]

I think the thing that started this whole ball rolling was back in 2002(?) Jay publicly saying something to the effect "When I'm 50-something my wife wants me to retire so we can spend more time together so that's what I'm going to do." That led NBC to start to groom Conan as Jay's replacement. Jay changed his mind now and that's what screwed up everything.

In other words, he pulled a Brett Favre.

[getreal]

Oh well, I guess if Leno is killing NBC (according to this thread title), might as well finish the job. Let NBC finish dieing, and something will rise from the ashes, I assume.

The Phoenix* Network™.
I just called it here first.
Mark your calendars.

* NOTE: "Phoenix" refers to the mythical bird who rose from the ashes -- NOT the city in Arizona. ;)

[bicker]

Then thousands of lobbyists would be out of work, wouldn't they?Are you saying that you're a lobbyist?

I think people have the right to be vocal of their opinions ... by voicing their opinions so others listen.As much as others have the right to be vocal about their disagreement about the validity of the foundation of those opinions.

However, not watching a show because of feelings with regard to the principle we talked about earlier, is unassailable, by comparison.

[getreal]

I think the thing that started this whole ball rolling was back in 2002(?) Jay publicly saying something to the effect "When I'm 50-something ...

Considering the fact that Leno was already 52 in 2002 (http://www.imdb.com/name/nm0005143/), it seems odd that he would be projecting to some future time by saying "when I'm 50-something". :confused:

[DevdogAZ]

Considering the fact that Leno was already 52 in 2002 (http://www.imdb.com/name/nm0005143/), it seems odd that he would be projecting to some future time by saying "when I'm 50-something". :confused:
I think TiVo'Brien's quote was simply paraphrased, meaning that Leno didn't say "fifty-something" he said some actual age for how old he'd be in 2009. Whether that's true or not, or whether Leno gave up his right to change his mind are different stories, but I don't think it makes sense to get into the "fifty-something" comment. That was just TiVo'Brien's way of representing what Leno allegedly said.

However, I would like to see some kind of evidence that Leno ever made such a comment. I know he's joked about that since being told by NBC that he'd be done in 2009, but I don't know that he ever actively told NBC that he'd like to retire at any specific point.

[aaronwt]

Give Conan the Tonight Show at the time it's supposed to air, and fire Leno from NBC, paying whatever contract penalties go with that. If Leno gets a job with Fox, so be it.

This is what will happen in my fantasy world, but somehow I doubt this is what will happen.

Mine would have Conan leaving and giving the Tonight show back to Leno.
I can't stand the Tonight Show since Conan took over.

[Fassade]

However, I would like to see some kind of evidence that Leno ever made such a comment. I know he's joked about that since being told by NBC that he'd be done in 2009, but I don't know that he ever actively told NBC that he'd like to retire at any specific point.

I think everybody is referring to this 2004 announcement, the original of which I cannot find, but there are excerpts quoted in this 2004 CNN article (http://www.cnn.com/2004/SHOWBIZ/TV/09/27/leno.obrien/):


In 2009, I'll be 59 years old and will have had this dream job for 17 years," Leno said in NBC's written statement. "I felt that the timing was right to plan for my successor and there is no one more qualified than Conan."

"Plus, I promised Mavis (his wife) I would take her out for dinner before I turned 60"


There is no mention there Leno said he was going to retire from television or show business in 2009, just that he would be handing over the reins of The Tonight Show at that time.

[TiVo'Brien]

I think everybody is referring to this 2004 announcement, the original of which I cannot find, but there are excerpts quoted in this 2004 CNN article (http://www.cnn.com/2004/SHOWBIZ/TV/09/27/leno.obrien/):



There is no mention there Leno said he was going to retire from television or show business in 2009, just that he would be handing over the reins of The Tonight Show at that time.Yes, that's the one. Thank you.

And for the record, 59 ~ 50-something.

[IJustLikeTivo]

Yes, that's the one. Thank you.

And for the record, 59 ~ 50-something.

More like 50-just by the skin of my teeth-something.

[DevdogAZ]

I think everybody is referring to this 2004 announcement, the original of which I cannot find, but there are excerpts quoted in this 2004 CNN article (http://www.cnn.com/2004/SHOWBIZ/TV/09/27/leno.obrien/):



There is no mention there Leno said he was going to retire from television or show business in 2009, just that he would be handing over the reins of The Tonight Show at that time.
That article is announcing the fact that NBC had just signed a contract with Conan to replace Leno in 2009, and Leno had been told his contract would not be renewed after 2009. Leno was playing the good soldier in his comments to the press. I don't think we can read into that comment that he truly wanted to retire or that NBC made the decision based on Leno's wishes.

And how about this ironic quote from that article:

The early announcement avoids a replay of the early 1990s, when the retirement of veteran host Johnny Carson touched off a behind-the-scenes battle between Leno and then- "Late Night" host David Letterman over who would be Carson's successor.

[bicker]

Ironic indeed... the reality is that the attempt to avoid a media circus, itself, was probably foolish... that regardless of what was done, that a media circus was inescapable. People must have a circus, or they will create one.

[IJustLikeTivo]

Wow, some people are really pissed.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LOQvsuJ5wIA

[smak]

I don't think the raw numbers will matter, because the landscape was vastly different in 1992, with little late-night competition from cable or even other broadcast networks. However, the fact is that Leno's numbers dropped after he took over from Carson, and they dropped again when Letterman's show started on CBS. It wasn't until 2.5-3 years after starting that Leno's ratings surpassed Lettermans.

Should NBC give Conan more time to find an audience? Absolutely. I think Conan is getting royally screwed here. But NBC is in the unenviable position of having two different late-night hosts under guaranteed contracts, neither of which wants to air behind the other. So NBC has to decide which one they think will get the best ratings today (or on March 1, when this new plan takes effect). Unfortunately for the "I'm with CoCo" crowd, Leno is going to get better ratings in the near term, and since that's all the longer that these execs can expect to keep their jobs, that's all they're worried about.


So the other day when Leno joked about Conan saying he got 7 months, where Leno said that's great, I got only 4 months, he was kinda fibbing, no?

-smak-

[smak]

Please, are you really this naive?

Jay did not ask for the 10 O'clock show. NBC offered it.

He did not ask to be moved to 11:35. He said, as would any sane person, that if the slot were open, he would be happy to take it.

No, any sane person would have said that somebody else currently has that slot, and ended it there.

-smak-

[MickeS]

No, any sane person would have said that somebody else currently has that slot, and ended it there.

-smak-

Is that what Conan should have said back in 2004? As far as I know, Jay had not indicated he was leaving when Conan accepted the job. Conan knew he would be taking Jay's job in 2009.

Saying "no, someone else already has that job" if you want it and are offered it seems asinine.

[marksman]

All these "BIH NBC" and second-guessing, BUT...

What would you have done given the situation a year ago:
a) Leno ending his contract but still wanted to work, either keep him or he moves to a rival network
b) Conan is owed alot of money if he didn't get The Tonight Show, and probably would move to a rival network.

I really don't blame them for trying to keep both, and save some money in the process.

I wouldn't have promised Conan the Tonight Show 5+ years ago, and essentially force Jay Leno to retire against his will.

If Conan was going to walk with no guarantee of the Tonight Show, it would have sucked, but it would have been what it was... Certainly would have been much better for NBC than what they had happen.

Things went wrong long before a year ago. Jay never really agreed to retire. it was more like, Jay will you be done in 5 years? And he said, "I guess so maybe."

It would have been different if Jay came to you on his own and said, "I want to retire in 5 more years, so let us go out with a bang." Then you locked up Conan to move to take over.

That is not what happened. Conan said he wanted to be given the Tonight Show at some point or he was going to leave. They essentially retired Jay in 5 years to make it possible and they got what they got.

[marksman]

Leno did nothing? I think if he did nothing he'd be on the stand-up circuit telling his Clinton jokes instead of accepting the 10pm show that kicked off this current problem. Even that would be all fine and dandy if Leno said no thanks to moving back to 11:35 during these current shenanigans and decided to head off to the stand-up circuit next month. Instead he seems perfectly ready to displace Conan from his current position. I guess Leno figures this is OK since he feels Conan pushed him out to begin with, even though Leno agreed to this succession plan in 2004.

How can you blame Leno for accepting a 5 night a week primetime tv show worth 10s of millions of dollars?

That is the point, Leno did not do anything wrong. If you think accepting a job to work on TV is doing something wrong, that is absurd. Jay never instigated any of this. He never wanted to leave the Tonight Show, he never begged anyone for anything. NBC essentially threw themselves at him because when they realized he wasn't going to retire they knew he would go somewhere else. Jay just wants to do a show. How does that equate to him doing anything wrong.

Same with Conan. Conan just wanted to progress his career. He wanted a shot at the Tonight Show. If NBC was not going to give him that shot, then he would try to get an earlier timeslot somewhere else. He was trying to improve is career. Nothing wrong with that.

Nothing wrong with what either Conan or Jay have done so far.

[MickeS]

That is not what happened. Conan said he wanted to be given the Tonight Show at some point or he was going to leave. They essentially retired Jay in 5 years to make it possible and they got what they got.

The funny thing is that NBC didn't even have the balls to follow through on retiring him. They could easily have kicked him to the curb a year ago, but chose not to.

[3D]

Well, it could be argued that 12:05 is after the local news... :D

That might be true at 11:59 p.m. I'd say that 12:05 a.m. is without a doubt before the local news. ;)

While I don't think those are options that Leno would agree to (remember, his contract says 10 pm, so he'd have to agree to any modification), I'm glad to see someone actually being realistic about this.

The fact of the matter is...

For space constraints, not gonna requote the whole shebang, but I agree with everything you said in this post.

As DevdogAZ pointed, things were much different in 1992 with NBC willing to look more to the long term.
That does not appear to be the case now.


Ironically, in 2004, NBC decided to forgo much of the benefit of that long term thinking by prematurely engaging in more long term thinking. Hindsight is 20/20, but even someone outside the industry such as myself could see back in 2004 that they were pushing Leno out the door at least five years too soon. If Conan had left in 2004, bfd, they would have had ten years to groom another replacement in either the Late Night slot or by starting to bring in guest hosts from time to time.

Nah, Leno said I don't want to retire and I'm going to compete against you guys at another network. NBC then said we want to keep everybody and here we are.

For the record before I begin, I am not a fan of Jay Leno's comedy and can't remember the last time I watched more than a minute or two of his show in passing. Let's pretend for a minute that Jay Leno is the hotshot salesman in a typical office. He's been the best salesman the company's got for close to a decade and has earned the right to the best territory. One day in 2004, his boss tells him thanks for doing such great work. We've got high hopes for this kid Conan down the hall. We're afraid he'll leave for greener pastures if we don't at least give him a guarantee that he'll get your territories at some point in the near future, so we're promising him your job in five years. You love your job and, at the time, any other job you're going to find pales in comparison. You could obviously quit for reasons of pride, but can anyone really blame you for continuing to quietly work at the job you love for as long as they'll have you? Put yourself in that salesman's shoes when the five years are up, you're still the top salesman in the company, and they still want to force you out. There still aren't any better jobs out there, but now you don't have a choice but to leave. Is it really so wrong to say, F you. I've kept quiet for five years because I didn't really have a choice if I wanted to keep doing the job I love, but now you can all go to hell while I beat the pants off of your young hotshot by taking my act to another company. In the real world, most people would be high fiving that guy.

[smak]

Is that what Conan should have said back in 2004? As far as I know, Jay had not indicated he was leaving when Conan accepted the job. Conan knew he would be taking Jay's job in 2009.

Saying "no, someone else already has that job" if you want it and are offered it seems asinine.

So you think that it's good sport to openly talk about what you would do if one of your colleagues is fired, because that's pretty much the only way the job would have come open.

Is that the kind of thing you would do?

-smak-

[smak]

How can you blame Leno for accepting a 5 night a week primetime tv show worth 10s of millions of dollars?

That is the point, Leno did not do anything wrong. If you think accepting a job to work on TV is doing something wrong, that is absurd. Jay never instigated any of this. He never wanted to leave the Tonight Show, he never begged anyone for anything. NBC essentially threw themselves at him because when they realized he wasn't going to retire they knew he would go somewhere else. Jay just wants to do a show. How does that equate to him doing anything wrong.

Same with Conan. Conan just wanted to progress his career. He wanted a shot at the Tonight Show. If NBC was not going to give him that shot, then he would try to get an earlier timeslot somewhere else. He was trying to improve is career. Nothing wrong with that.

Nothing wrong with what either Conan or Jay have done so far.

Most people don't get to fail up.

-smak-

[marksman]

So... he does care.

If he really wanted to do what's fair and right he'd admit he tried and failed, leave Conan to the Tonight Show and walk away.

After all it's not about the money.


I wonder what Carson would think of this mess.

Leno wants to do a tv show. He doesn't seem to care about the money. All he wanted to do was to keep doing the Tonight Show and make tons of money for the network and be left alone.

The network took that away from him, and he still just wanted to do a tv show... when they knew that, they threw this primetime gig at him. He did it because he wants to do a tv show. That is what he wants to do.

Same thing now, potentially if he moves back. He just wants to do a tv show and be left alone. I am not a Leno fan, but people are being ridiculous trying to blame Jay for any of this.

All Jay wanted to do was do a tv show. I bet Jay never once demanded anything from NBC in this who debacle, other than to be able to do a show.

Let us go back in time to the Letterman/Leno/Carson Saga. Lets change what happened, and instead of Jay and Dave fighting it out, instead Dave demands he get the tonight show in 3 years, and NBC essentially retires Johnny without his consent. How well would that have worked out?

[MickeS]

So you think that it's good sport to openly talk about what you would do if one of your colleagues is fired, because that's pretty much the only way the job would have come open.

Is that the kind of thing you would do?


If I worked with Steve and someone else at work asked me "Would you be willing to take Steve's job if he is fired?"... and I was interested in that job... yeah, I'd say "Yeah, I'd be open to that, if I was offered it."

I don't know what's so bad about that.

[marksman]

I think the threat of Jay going to another network really wasn't real. CBS has Letterman. ABC has Nightline/Kimmel --the only thing left is Fox.

Currently, Fox only broadcasts from 8-10, and the affiliates have the valuable 10pm news slot and usually syndicated shows thereafter. I don't think Fox would have ever really wanted Jay.

First, he wouldn't get any decent carryings by the stations for years.


Actually from recent information, Fox has the rights to run a late night show on all the fox affiliates. However they realize it has been a tough time and would be careful with messing with the affiliates. However, if they did put a late night show on, they would pretty much have full coverage from affiliates.

[pcguru83]

It's being reported that January 22nd will be Conan's last night.

http://www.people.com/people/article/0,,20336890,00.html

[timckelley]

:(

[MickeS]

It's being reported that January 22nd will be Conan's last night.

http://www.people.com/people/article/0,,20336890,00.html

That's just sad if that's the case. The whole thing is idiotic and sad on so many levels.

[smak]

If I worked with Steve and someone else at work asked me "Would you be willing to take Steve's job if he is fired?"... and I was interested in that job... yeah, I'd say "Yeah, I'd be open to that, if I was offered it."

I don't know what's so bad about that.

That's at work. And probably not right in front of Steve.

My objection is because it was in public.

Obviously if the NBC bosses came to Leno and said it, he's not going to say I can't talk about it because Conan has the job.

I just feel it's bad sport to talk about somebody elses job in public.

-smak-

[getreal]

Most people don't get to fail up.
Yeah ... unless you're in Entertainment or the Financial industry.

[marksman]

Of course, state laws vary, but we can rest assured that state laws in CA, if they've ever thought about it in these terms, tend to favor the entertainment industry.

Beyond that, most state laws prohibit such conditions from preventing workers from making a reasonable living -- only Conan's mother would find that he couldn't make a reasonable living making public appearances instead of starring in a television show.

I just talked to someone who had a lot of experience with non-competes in california, and back then they were essentially illegal. If Conan gave up any buyout or payouts, who should be likely to be able to go work somewhere else when he wants without consequence.

The laws could have changed since then... but that is how it was then. The thing is with non-compete stuff you can't contract your way out of it without consideration. So NBC would unlikely to be able to ice Conan without paying him a lot of money. There is little chance they could keep him from working without paying him. I also suspect he could refuse payment, and be free to work somewhere else as well... but not entirely sure on that.

I just think NBC is being stupid here, and they are pissing a lot of people off. Their network sucks. It consists of a weight loss show and some mediocrely rated sitcoms on Thursday night. They should be focused on fixing their sucky network and not on fighting with Conan or Jay. The funny thing is the people in charge, who are going to lose their jobs, can't do the right thing because they feel if they do the right thing they will lose their job. The thing is they don't realize they are going to lose their job anyways, so they should do the right thing, and be on their way.

[Adam1115]

So the tonight show with Jay Leno is back? Sweet!

[Fassade]

Let's pretend for a minute that Jay Leno is the hotshot salesman in a typical office. He's been the best salesman the company's got for close to a decade and has earned the right to the best territory.

I like your analogy because it makes me think of Alec Baldwin walking into a room of talk show hosts and telling Jimmy Fallon to PUT...THAT COFFEE...DOWN! :)

[marksman]

Ridiculous. I wrote a statement you couldn't refute, so instead you decided to post sound bites that were irrelevant to the actual words that you were replying to, in a vain attempt to avoid the reality of what I wrote.

All that matters in business is results. Not excuses.

Welcome to the real world.

That too.

Do you ever say anything in these discussions that is not illogical.

To answer the question in the middle, no Leno did not have the same horrible lead-in problem that Conan got... So he had a much better chance to succeed.

NBC's ratings for lead-ins went down from when Leno was on the air until Conan was on the air because Leno was the lead in.

NBC, in their stupid mindset, which you are the only one who shares with them, didn't worry about all the horrible side effects that low ratings caused their network and other programs.

Instead they acted like they were in the first day of junior business class (much like your posts here bicker), and said, money money money for the one show is all that matters.

Not that you kill lead ins for affiliates and your own night time shows. Not that you significantly shrink the total viewing audience of your entire network which means you have only a fraction of the same audience to advertise you other programs.

There were all kinds of side issues that have cost NBC way more money then they netted on the tonight show for making this mistake and again even 11 year olds knew it would happen. The only ones who did not understand it, and seemingly still don't understand it are the NBC execs and Bicker.

In real business Bicker, you actually have to give consideration to a wide range of factors and impacts on your business. Any even small change can sometimes have large and often times unforeseen (or in this case easily foreseen) effects on the rest of your business. You don't make decisions in a bubble. You don't just do +/- for each show for revenue and expense, because network tv is much more complicated than that. Not so complicated though, that everyone else could have avoided this problem except for NBC execs and you.

[3D]

I like your analogy because it makes me think of Alec Baldwin walking into a room of talk show hosts and telling Jimmy Fallon to PUT...THAT COFFEE...DOWN! :)

ABC baby, ABC

[timckelley]

Hmmm... So Conan is quitting then. Any chance that Leno won't take the job, and they'll have nobody to do the Tonight Show?

[timckelley]

Also, I wonder if Conan will go to another network, or if his current contract will stop him from doing that.

[Johnny Dancing]

If Conan goes to Fox, I wonder if he'd be able to take the show's recurring skits with him, i.e. Twitter Tracker, In the Year 3000, Triumph the Insult Comic Dog, etc. Is that stuff the property of NBC?

My thoughts..


Conan can't go to FOX, Sarah Palin has that slot pegged already.

Letterman's break down of the situation is the only one that I can understand: http://bit.ly/8xSVAQ

So glad that Leno @10 failed - not that I hate Leno, but perhaps it will force ABC to produce some real TV shows during that hour.

[bicker]

Do you ever say anything in these discussions that is not illogical.Everything I say is logical. That's your big problem with what I wrote. You think that your own personal preferences is "logic". How myopic. Get over yourself.
In real business Bicker, you actually have to give consideration to a wide range of factors and impacts on your business. Something which you clearly have no idea how to do.

[JYoung]

Hmmm... So Conan is quitting then. Any chance that Leno won't take the job, and they'll have nobody to do the Tonight Show?

(Jimmy Fallon's ears perk up)


Although I wonder if Letterman would take it back if offered?

[ElJay]

Letterman seems very settled at CBS in NYC. No reason to jump off of that gravy train into chaos at NBC.

I feel quite bad for Conan's staff that did the cross country move with the expectation of having a job for a decade or two. I hope he has them covered somehow. That overall story of taking a new job only to be downsized a few months later unfortunately is not unique in this job market.

[pcguru83]

NBC is apparently leaking like a sieve today:

Leno and NBC Strike 1 Hour 'Tonight' Deal (http://www.tmz.com/2010/01/14/jay-leno-conan-obrien-nbc-the-tonight-show/)

Not that this comes as a surprise, but sure seems the writing is on the wall for Conan. How depressing. I've never been into late night talk shows at all, but I really loved Conan on The Tonight Show. I watched more of Conan in the last 7 months than I've watched in the entire 26 years of my life.

[timckelley]

:( :( :(

I wonder exactly what's next in Conan's future.

[jimborst]

My thoughts..


Conan can't go to FOX, Sarah Palin has that slot pegged already.


Umm, Palin is on Fox News not the Fox Network.

[marksman]

I am going to try and find it, but I found a weird google search for ratings history of the tonight show and it actually shows you the ratings by decades and you can drill down to years, and to months. They link to stories for each period.

So you can actually go back read stories when Jay took over in May of 1992 and new stories before and after that.

Just seeing something interesting. Apparently Carson over the years had gotten a bigger and bigger piece of the profits of the Tonight Show. I guess as a part owner. So much so that they say NBC's actual revenue as the ratings dwindled was essentially zero. So they were happy to bring Leno in, because they again owned 100% of the show.

I would note that even though Leno's ratings did not drop off from Carson (in fact looking at the weird google graph it seems like they went up slightly), I think if you compared the lead-in from the last primetime hour that he had then or at any time of his career compared to what Conan had this year it would not be close.

I don't think Leno ever had a an audience lead in as relatively small as Conan had this year, and that is part of the reason why this whole thing was a horrible idea.

Here is the google link for the history of the tonight show ratings (http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&safe=off&tbo=p&tbs=tl:1&q=ratings+history+of+tonight+show&btnG=Search&aq=f&oq=&aqi=)

Which I have to admit is one of the coolest things I have ever found on google, and I don't even know how I found it.

[marksman]

NBC is apparently leaking like a sieve today:

Leno and NBC Strike 1 Hour 'Tonight' Deal (http://www.tmz.com/2010/01/14/jay-leno-conan-obrien-nbc-the-tonight-show/)

Not that this comes as a surprise, but sure seems the writing is on the wall for Conan. How depressing. I've never been into late night talk shows at all, but I really loved Conan on The Tonight Show. I watched more of Conan in the last 7 months than I've watched in the entire 26 years of my life.

Well that is half of the right thing to do.

The other thing is to allow Conan to go somewhere else without fighting him.