Shark Tank 10/06/09

[wendiness1]

Why do American producers have to mess around with a successful show? The concept itself is good enough without the added drama of O'Leary charging down the hallway to hunt down the interpreneurs. Seems to me the investors on the BBC version (haven't seen CBC) are at least civil to eachother and that works well enough to prompt the American version. But, it appears Americans must enjoy conflict and rudeness because the producers apparently encourage it.

If O'Leary doesn't knock it off, the time will come when enterpreneurs will sign with relief when he's "out", rather than be disappointed.

The belt guy really shot himself in the foot by overvaluing his company. It seemed the investors were interested but he was asking too much.

Barbara noted that Notehall was legal while exchanging notes when she was in college wasn't. What's the difference?

Throx, well, if it were successful every sock company would simply package socks in threes in a heartbeat. Besides, "Throx" sounds like a disease.

I'm glad the Treasure Chest Pets got some support. Robert's offer was nice but really didn't address her bigger need - support and distribution. I can see this being popular year round, not just a Christmas item. Kids love to hide things and keep secrets. Barbara seems most in tune with kid-realted stuff (playpen covers, which others poo-pooed, seems to be doing well).

Preview for next week: O'Leary makes some statement about "Do heavy women really care about fashion?" Yikes! What an idiot!

[nataylor]

Barbara noted that Notehall was legal while exchanging notes when she was in college wasn't. What's the difference?
She said she traded English assignments for math homework. That's different than trading notes.

[mattack]

Why do American producers have to mess around with a successful show? The concept itself is good enough without the added drama of O'Leary charging down the hallway to hunt down the interpreneurs. Seems to me the investors on the BBC version (haven't seen CBC) are at least civil to eachother and that works well enough to prompt the American version.

I haven't seen any of the other versions (I wish one of the other versions would show up on DVD -- maybe the BBC America ones are edited for more commercials?)..

Personally, I *love* when they go after each other. It fits the "sharks going after chum" idea well.

This show probably ticks off Michael Moore (who I like but am very increasingly in disagreement with).

[pmyers]

wow.....what a great episode. I was really hoping that he was walking out to the guys to give them a final offer and "steal" the deal back. That would have been great!

Is it a new rule where the entrepeneur must get the asking price they are asking for or no deal? I don't remember that happening in previous episodes...seems like a stupid rule and really screwed the belt guy.

[wendiness1]

wow.....what a great episode. I was really hoping that he was walking out to the guys to give them a final offer and "steal" the deal back. That would have been great!

Is it a new rule where the entrepeneur must get the asking price they are asking for or no deal? I don't remember that happening in previous episodes...seems like a stupid rule and really screwed the belt guy.

Yes. That's stated in the opening. It's also the rule on the BBC version. Don't know about the Canadian version but I expect it's the same.

[BrandonRe]

wow.....what a great episode. I was really hoping that he was walking out to the guys to give them a final offer and "steal" the deal back. That would have been great!

Is it a new rule where the entrepeneur must get the asking price they are asking for or no deal? I don't remember that happening in previous episodes...seems like a stupid rule and really screwed the belt guy.

It is a standard rule on these shows, and not a new one. Yes, it was a factor in the belt guy not getting anything. But it does serve a purpose. A majority of the entrepreneurs have overvalued their company/idea, often to a ridiculous degree, even with this rule. Imagine what the valuations/requests woudl be if this rule wasn't in place. This tends to keep the participants "honest" in their requests.

[nataylor]

I swear we've seen some deals made where the person gets less than what they went in asking for...

And the rule only applies to the amount of cash, right? So if you go in asking $50K for 10% of the business, you're still within the rules to walk out with $50K for 51%?

[pmyers]

I swear we've seen some deals made where the person gets less than what they went in asking for...

And the rule only applies to the amount of cash, right? So if you go in asking $50K for 10% of the business, you're still within the rules to walk out with $50K for 51%?

yeah...I thought the same thing, but maybe it was the stake negotiated and not the amount of cash. Seems strange to require 1 and not the other though. I think if this is show about negotiation then there shouldn't be any restrictions.

They do have a Facebook page, btw

[Ment]

Guess I have no idea what kids want cause the Treasure Chest Pets was instant fail for me; it looked cheap and ordinary. Notehall is a great idea, note-taking was a chore for me in college and I'd definitely had paid to have a good steady source.

[Hank]

I agree -- Treasure Chest Pets was a non-starter.

And the rules are weird... didn't they offer less money to one of the people last night? I don't see why they couldn't do that with the belt guy.

[pmyers]

It really was great to see a lot of good ideas that had the sharks fighting each other.

I really did think the one guy was going to walk out there and grab the guys and make them a final offer and steal the deal back. That really would have been awesome!

[danterner]

I was curious and went to http://www.notehall.com after the show to check out their site. Looks interesting.

[BrandonRe]

I agree -- Treasure Chest Pets was a non-starter.

And the rules are weird... didn't they offer less money to one of the people last night? I don't see why they couldn't do that with the belt guy.

Each shark is free to offer less than the requested amount. If that happens, the entrepreneur has to convince another shark/sharks to make up the difference.

As to why they didn't do that with the belt guy, there was no way they were going to get up to his asking price even if they all five went in together on a deal.

[betts4]

I was curious and went to http://www.notehall.com after the show to check out their site. Looks interesting.

I thought thier disclaimer there was amusing.

Our site is not a substitute for missing class. Information gathered on this web site is intended as supplemental information. Notehall does not condone cheating. All users must abide by our stringent Terms of Service. Notehall © 2009. MC3 Design

[classicX]

I would be surprised if such a disclaimer didn't exist.

[plateau10]

(finally got to this episode) I don't understand how Notehall could be legal. It seems to me that a lecture is a professor's intellectual property. Obviously notes (even audio recordings) are routinely made for personal use, but these students (and Notehall) are profiting over these notes.

Edit: I stand corrected (obviously these guys would have consulted an actual attorney rather than me :) )
http://www.utsystem.edu/ogc/intellectualproperty/lectures.htm

[Supfreak26]

I'm thinking there was some heavy editing for the belt guy. It seemed like the meeting went on a lot longer because the sharks went from interested to pissed really quick and no offers were made at all. I wonder if they tried to get him to come down on his price and he refused to budge.

It's good to see that they are now making other offers besides "X dollars for 51% of your company." That was getting old.

I like the Treasure Chest Pets. I can see my girls totally getting into that. I also liked the notehall. I was a horrible note taker in college. In fact, I slept through most of my classes. If not for certain girls in each class, I wouldn't have had any notes for anything. Great idea.

Throx was just stupid and that guy was creepy. Love the belts but I wouldn't pay that much for them. Of course I'm not the demo he's looking for.

[plateau10]

I wonder if they tried to get him to come down on his price and he refused to budge.

He's not allowed to come down on his price (as mentioned above). He's only allowed to go up on his percentage, but he valued himself so high that he really didn't have enough equity to offer.

[pmyers]

still bugs me that they put any restrictions on the negotiation.....what does it do?

[marrone]

I agree somewhat about the restrictions. It's probably more for purposes of the show. There would be more arguments "I don't want to pay $75K, I only want to pay $50K", etc. This probably gets rid of some of the petty banter. They don't give a whole lot of airtime to each segment, yet it's clear from the edits that they're in there for quite a while. There's no way the sharks would make offers on such little information that we see. We mainly see the highlights (or O'Leary making an arse out of himself).

-Mike

[scottjf8]

Can we discuss each ep here instead of new threads?

I just watched the 10/20 show, and one thing stuck out in my mind watching it. The guy with the bobbleheads - during his "negotiation" I paused it and told my wife - the dude has NO interest in this mall idea, or even getting any money from the sharks. He was there to get "free" publicity to advertise his product to the millions watching this show.

[danterner]

That's a great insight. I think you're right.

[BrandonRe]

Can we discuss each ep here instead of new threads?

I just watched the 10/20 show, and one thing stuck out in my mind watching it. The guy with the bobbleheads - during his "negotiation" I paused it and told my wife - the dude has NO interest in this mall idea, or even getting any money from the sharks. He was there to get "free" publicity to advertise his product to the millions watching this show.

I agree. And the Kiosk idea for that product won't work. It would only work if you had the technology to create the doll head there while the person waited, not to send it off and have to come back and get it.

[danterner]

He was there to get "free" publicity to advertise his product to the millions watching this show.

I found the following quote from an article here (http://www.istockanalyst.com/article/viewiStockNews/articleid/3568363#), which lends some credence to this:

Trinity resident Jeff Wolsky says the experience was beneficial anyway because of the national exposure and the chance to wheel and deal against the "sharks."

They don't give a whole lot of airtime to each segment, yet it's clear from the edits that they're in there for quite a while. There's no way the sharks would make offers on such little information that we see. We mainly see the highlights (or O'Leary making an arse out of himself).


From the same article:

He told The Tribune that the taping session lasted well over an hour. But only selected highlights aired.

Here's his bobblehead on-line business. The site could use a facelift: http://www.webobble.com/ Looks like pricing starts at $139.99 for a full custom bobblehead. I'm out.

[pmyers]

I think I'm going to start using the Tank's negotiation methods:

Wife: Please take out the trash, honey.
Me: The game is on and I'm watching, and for that reason....I'm out!

Let's see if it works! ;) lol

[danterner]

Wife: Please take out the trash, honey.


Me: Do you hear something? All I hear is noise.

You should try that one, too, and see how it goes...

[uncdrew]

I agree -- Treasure Chest Pets was a non-starter.


Actually, it's pretty damn brilliant. In a "duh, I wish I thought of that" way.

Our daughter loves putting stuff away, hiding things, knowing where they are. Even little trivial stuff.

She'd love a treasure chest pet. It's kind of the answer to "We know kids love stuffed animals, how can we make a better stuffed animal?"

[uncdrew]

still bugs me that they put any restrictions on the negotiation.....what does it do?

I completely agree.


They could simply have some people help the consultants shape a better starting offer if they're concerned about it. There should be no restrictions on business negotiations.

I kept wondering why either side didn't restructure the deal -- turns out it's because of a silly TV rule.

[uncdrew]

Can we discuss each ep here instead of new threads?

I just watched the 10/20 show, and one thing stuck out in my mind watching it. The guy with the bobbleheads - during his "negotiation" I paused it and told my wife - the dude has NO interest in this mall idea, or even getting any money from the sharks. He was there to get "free" publicity to advertise his product to the millions watching this show.

Yeah, Belt dude probably has a deal by now based on showing his wares on this show.

[mattack]

So this show got horrible ratings, and likely won't be back, right? I think it's very entertaining.. so I hope it's back.

I kind of liked the per-episode threads, when someone would make a poll for the items. I don't remember what the items were in this episode, but remember that I *wanted* to make a comment about one of them.. heh.

[pmyers]

this is really one of my favorite shows!

[danterner]

I've only seen the last 5 episodes, but I enjoy it greatly. I'm sorry to have missed the beginning of the season and I do hope it returns.

[mattack]

I remembered my question. Does anybody know what the "reused" part of the headphone-keep-untangled device was? I couldn't really tell from the episode. Did it sort of "unwrap" then push back down? I'm imagining basically half of a bagel shape (the way you cut it to put cream cheese on it) that then 'opens' to wrap the headphone on, then pushes back down and is shaped like a 'half torus' again..
??

[Neenahboy]

FINALLY we get some people who know how to correctly value their company (the JumpForward recruiting website guys)!

And the problem with the iPod thing wasn't so much that kids like interchangeable cases (they do?)...it's that no one in their right mind, particularly today with touchscreen devices entering the mainstream, would buy an MP3 protective device that obscures the controls.

[LoadStar]

Has this thread sort of segued into a general "all Shark Tank discussion" thread? Because these last two were from 10/20, not 10/06.

[pmyers]

I remembered my question. Does anybody know what the "reused" part of the headphone-keep-untangled device was? I couldn't really tell from the episode. Did it sort of "unwrap" then push back down? I'm imagining basically half of a bagel shape (the way you cut it to put cream cheese on it) that then 'opens' to wrap the headphone on, then pushes back down and is shaped like a 'half torus' again..
??


I think I've seen that on envelopes and file folders like you'd by at Staples...I think that's what was reused.

[Hank]

I remembered my question. Does anybody know what the "reused" part of the headphone-keep-untangled device was? I couldn't really tell from the episode. Did it sort of "unwrap" then push back down? I'm imagining basically half of a bagel shape (the way you cut it to put cream cheese on it) that then 'opens' to wrap the headphone on, then pushes back down and is shaped like a 'half torus' again..
??

It's half of one of these:

http://rushfaster.com.au/product.php?pProductID=CAB-CTM42006

http://rushfaster.com.au/site/image/product/TURTLE/CAB-CTM42006_3.JPG

[Neenahboy]

According to TheWrap, star Robert Herjavec tweeted last night that ABC has ordered more episodes of Shark Tank.

http://www.thewrap.com/ind-column/shark-tank-star-were-coming-back-9490

[marksman]

I completely agree.


They could simply have some people help the consultants shape a better starting offer if they're concerned about it. There should be no restrictions on business negotiations.

I kept wondering why either side didn't restructure the deal -- turns out it's because of a silly TV rule.

Well I assume it was done from experience from doing this show for many years. What would happen is every person would come in and ask for 10 million dollars for 1% of their company and then negotiate from there. It would waste a lot of time. It forces people to put a realistic valuation on their business so an actual deal is possible.

Very few people end up with a better deal than the one they came in with. You create a reasonable ceiling then so you are not wasting a lot of time.

I assume it has other value too, like having tiny equity stakes for small amounts of money that are not the least bit interesting or good for the show.

Few people priced themselves out of a deal, this guy happened to do it. Most do not. So it works out pretty well, in my opinion.

As for the bobblehead guy, I like the theory about the marketing aspect of it. He got a 5-10 minute free network commercial which is worth hundreds of thousands of dollars for his business, potentially. If one of the sharks bit, all the better. He was certainly not trying to frame a legitimate deal.

By the way, why was he so freaking evavise with his numbers. It is absurd that he doesn't know to a round number how much money he actually made the previous year. What is even dumber is someone who is allegedly making 500k - 600k a year is asking for a 75k loan to open mall kiosks.

Taking that retail would be so dumb. He had no idea what kind of potential business a kiosk might do, which is also absurd. I wonder how much due diligence the show does in advance? Do they put these people through an audit? I find the guy's claim that he nets 50% profit on his bobblehead dolls to be something that is a bit hard to believe.

[marksman]

Oh yeah and I have a big problem with the JumpForward business. It seems massively risky. An arbitrary ruling by the NCAA could have a massive impact on their business and make it go away over night.

[wendiness1]

I hope it's true that there will be more episodes. I love this show.

[marksman]

I hope it's true that there will be more episodes. I love this show.

Yeah one of our favorites here too. We actually fell behind a bit but saw the last few episodes this week.

Although apparently I missed one because when they reviewed the barbecue sauce one, I realized I never saw it.

[pmyers]

Well I assume it was done from experience from doing this show for many years. What would happen is every person would come in and ask for 10 million dollars for 1% of their company and then negotiate from there. It would waste a lot of time. It forces people to put a realistic valuation on their business so an actual deal is possible...

That could be easily fixed by a producer, not a rule.

[mattack]

Woohoo... I hope they really do do more eps.

[Neenahboy]

Did everyone catch the return of Shark Tank with an all-new episode tonight? It was quite a welcome surprise to see it in the To Do list.

[Hank]

Tivo got it for me.. good to see it back. Ok episode, but when they brought that last guy out at :52, I knew right away he wasn't going anywhere, quick. That's just enough time to explain his business, and get 5 dings in a row.

I want to know, and no shark asked the golf ball cleaner guy how he got such a well built and professionally made device designed and manufactured on a limited budget. Unless the outside case of the device already exists somewhere, and he just installs scrubby stuff inside. And there's got to be dozens of other portable golf ball cleaners out there -- it's not such a unique idea. a quick google search reveals this: http://www.invention.net/sansotta.htm

[generaltso]

I read something that said they have leftover footage that they've made into a few more shows. But I haven't heard that it's been picked up for another season yet. Another season of Dragon's Den has started though, so that will be good enough for now.

[wendiness1]

I've forgotten what channel it is. Help?

[LoadStar]

I've forgotten what channel it is. Help?

ABC.

[wendiness1]

Thanks!

[pmyers]

was fun to see it back!

[marksman]

For some weird reason ABC ran an old episode at like 4:00pm ct today.

Was good to see the show back last night. I really like it. Plus I managed to work in a few of the Dragon's Den episodes on BBCA recently.

[Mike Wells]

Tivo missed it due to a conflict, but after a friend called me I watched it on Hulu.

The first couple who were pitching "Romp N Roll" are local to us. Our daughter goes to (and loves) Romp N Roll classes, and her first class was with the wife on the show (Babs.)

They didn't pitch well to the sharks. They have a successful business and were not really clear on what they were going to do with the money. (I'm sure lots of footage gets cut, though.) I've heard they had expanded to a new franchise in the past and then took it over when that owner was not providing good customer service, so their business might not scale well.

I've never been to gymboree, so I'm not sure how it is different from RnR.

I guess I'm glad they ended up keeping their ownership, even if they didn't get the money.

[marksman]

I am skeptical on how successful they are.. .What are their franchise fees? What percentage of their income and revenue is the actual business and not including all the franchises? In such a short time, if they have significant franchise fees, for instance, that could be most of their income.

I think they did make a lot of mistakes in their presentation. Instead of just baselessly bashing Gymboree they should have pointed out some weaknesses with them and said how they had improved upon it. Besides saying they had newer stuff.

[Mike Wells]

For a small business I suspect they are considered very successful - nowadays that criteria might be only to turn a profit. As other kid-focused businesses are closing up around town, these guys are always packed.

They have a website - http://www.rompnroll.com/. From that, I see they have franchise info published.

Q: How much will I need to invest?
A: The estimated cost of opening a Romp n' Roll can range from approximately $199,000 to $300,000.

Q: How much is the franchise fee?
A: The franchise fee is $39,500 per location (included in the figure above).

Q: What is the royalty?
A: The royalty is 6% of monthly gross sales.


And they seem to address what makes them different from other "gymnastics" type programs, but I'm still not sure what Gymboree offers.

Q: What makes Romp n' Roll different from other children's concepts?
A: Most other concepts are structured vertically (limited offering, i.e. "gymnastics" to a wide target group, i.e. babies to 12 year olds). Romp n' Roll is structured horizontally. We offer Gym, Art, Music, Silly Science, Good Sports, Superheroes, Princess Class, Bug Club, All About Dinosaurs, even Romp y Roll en Espanol (and a whole lot more) to a more narrow audience (children under 6 years). This focus is reflected in the way we build our facilities, the type of equipment we use, and the kind of staff we hire. As a result, we become THE place for younger kids!


I think the sharks recognized this as a good business but needing some management and/or overvalued by the owners. I'm not sure what dollar amount they would have wanted to give up 51%.

[marrone]

I thought romp and roll was pretty good myself. It does sound like they had a pretty good business there. But they really did make a bad presentation, unfortunately.

As for the golf ball washer guy, don't golf courses have washers at every hole?

-Mike

[nataylor]

As for the golf ball washer guy, don't golf courses have washers at every hole?

-Mike
At the start of the hole. His example was a dirty ball on the green.

[pmyers]

I agree the romp and roll presentation was bad.

I can't seem to find any of the Dragon's Den episodes on BBCA. Maybe they just arent on right now.

[generaltso]

I can't seem to find any of the Dragon's Den episodes on BBCA. Maybe they just arent on right now.

I don't think the British version is on right now. But the Canadian version just started a new season. Check for it on CBC.

[mattack]

For some weird reason ABC ran an old episode at like 4:00pm ct today.

ABC seems to allow stations to air network shows on weekends lately... sometimes new, sometimes reruns. For a while they were burning off episodes of the Homeland Security show in the same timeslot.

BTW, these are new episodes, but at least from Wikipedia, they didn't film more footage:
According to ABC's Website 5 episodes will be aired on Friday nights starting January 8th 2010, using unaired footage from previous tapings