Will there be a new tivo with 4 tuners soon? [Text View]

bkdtv

10-04-2009, 05:54 PM

Hello all, I'm researching buyning a Tivo Hd for my FIOS service hate that thing they call a DVR. I've read in many places about that new Ceton Card and I'm wondering if Tivo will have such a feature in a new box?Ceton says their quad-tuner card will cost $300 to $600, depending on volume. To me, that suggests an initial price of $400-$500. If I were TiVo, I would be more concerned about cheaper dual-tuner CableCard solutions coming in the second half of 2010.

I don't think there's much chance of a 4x ATSC/QAM TiVo, unless it's marketed as a whole home solution with low-cost MoCA extenders. That would be a pleasant surprise, but I expect TiVo to cut costs with an updated/enhanced refresh of the existing model.

It would be better to bring out a TiVo with a DVD burner built in, like what the Humax did. It's to eliminate all the hurdles/jumps/loops one has to go through to back up recordings.The DVD format is on the way out. There's no future in that.

Most consumers just want to record and view their favorite programs. They could care less about archival.

orangeboy

10-04-2009, 08:40 PM

...Most consumers just want to record and view their favorite programs. They could care less about archival.

I fit into this category. I watch an episode of TV program or watch a movie, and I enjoy it then. I see no reason to go through the effort of archiving it for later use - I've already seen it, I already know the outcome. If I miss an episode of something, I'll search around on usenet and transcode>transfer to my Tivo. As far as archiving movies, I'll let Netflix do that for me!

moyekj

10-04-2009, 09:02 PM

That's the only thing I envy about AT&T's uverse ads about how they can record several channels at once... Never mind the fine print where you are limited to I think only 2 (maybe 3 now) highly compressed "HD" streams at a time in the whole house. No thanks. Yes I suppose you can record several SD streams at once, but at least for me there is hardly anything in SD I record anymore...

lrhorer

10-04-2009, 10:02 PM

The DVD format is on the way out. There's no future in that.
Agreed. I have a couple of hundred blank Dual Layer DVDs laying around gathering dust. Other than a couple of DVDs I burned for my brother a couple of months ago, I haven't burned a video DVD in almost 3 years. I used to burn them by the handfuls.

lrhorer

10-04-2009, 10:26 PM

I fit into this category. I watch an episode of TV program or watch a movie, and I enjoy it then. I see no reason to go through the effort of archiving it for later use - I've already seen it, I already know the outcome.
You are of course entirely entitled to your opinion, but I disagree emphatically:

1. No quality narrative is exclusively about its outcome.

2. With many fine narratives, the outcome is well known at the outset. Few people who watched Apollo 13 or Romeo and Juliet did not know how they would end beforehand. Knowing the outcome does not mean the narrative is diminished in any way.

3. No person absorbing a quality narrative of any extent can possibly extract every nuance and relationship in a single session unless one has a completely eidetic memory. Even then, one must review it repeatedly in one's memory before one extracts all the narrative has to offer.

4. Any narrative not worth experiencing multiple times is hardly worth experiencing once.

5. Many directors put enjoyable little "Easter Eggs" in their movies. It is rare to spot these the first time through.

Every time I watch a good movie, I gain something else from the experience. Sometimes some of the things I gain are quite profound. Other times they are just fun. Every time I watch Judgment at Nuremberg or A Man for All Seasons I learn something important. On the other side of the coin, I had probably watched The Great Race 100 times before I noticed in the ballroom scene in Carpathia, Jack Lemon is dancing with a man!! It sometimes has taken me several viewings to spot Alfred Hitchcock in some of his movies. Little things or big ones, there is always something to be gained by reading a book, listening to a song, or watching a motion picture another time.

And yes, I have a couple of thousand movies archived, to watch whenever my friends, family, or just myself wish. Most are not on DVD, though.

lrhorer

10-04-2009, 10:31 PM

bicker

10-05-2009, 09:20 AM

I fit into this category. I watch an episode of TV program or watch a movie, and I enjoy it then. Ditto. While I have the capacity, on my home network, to save TBs of programming, I don't see the need. I watch what I watch when I watch it, and if I want to watch something a few years from now, I'll pick something that is broadcast then and watch that. (Note that I do see value in storing up my acorns for the winter, or in television parlance, building up a modest backlog of programming to fill dead zones in December, March, June and August. But everything I store I store to watch once and discard. Television shows and movies are like tissues.)

I see a lot more value in 4 tuners than in long-term storage. With 4 tuners I don't have to worry as much about the broadcasters' increasingly annoying tendency of putting all the best stuff on up against each other.

Thom

10-05-2009, 05:08 PM

Several years ago, TiVo asked (on this forum) for suggestions on new features.

At that time, I suggested that TiVo write multi-TiVo coordination into the software. By that, I mean that household TiVos would coordinate (via network) their To Do list, Now Playing list, and Season Pass Manager so that they collectively acted like a single box with umpteen tuners.

If TiVo would put transparent coordination into their software, they could sell single-tuner boxes, and the end-user could have as many tuners as they wanted.

As you can tell, it never went anywhere.

fyodor

10-05-2009, 05:12 PM

Hello all, I'm researching buyning a Tivo Hd for my FIOS service hate that thing they call a DVR. I've read in many places about that new Ceton Card and I'm wondering if Tivo will have such a feature in a new box?

That's the only thing I envy about AT&T's uverse ads about how they can record several channels at once, this is a item of contention in our large family

I know I'm asking you to speculate. sorry

Given the certification time and difficulty involved with Cablecard compliant devices, I'd expect at least a year between concrete news of a really "new" device and the device actually being on sale.I can't think of anything that moved quicker than this. Since we haven't heard anything but speculation, let alone rumors, I would be very surprised if any quad tuner device came out before Christmas 2010.

F

bkdtv

10-05-2009, 05:20 PM

If TiVo would put transparent coordination into their software, they could sell single-tuner boxes, and the end-user could have as many tuners as they wanted.

As you can tell, it never went anywhere.For that to work, the DVR hardware must provide the performance and network throughput necessary to support streaming HD between multiple clients simultaneously.

The technology did not exist to do that until very recently. MoCA coupled with Broadcom's upcoming BCM7410/BCM7420/BCM7342 will make that possible.

DirecTV is working on a shared NPL and a shared Season Pass Manager (or whatever they call it) for networked DVRs running their own software, so TiVo will have to offer that capability on the DirecTiVo if they want to remain competitive.

jcaudle

10-05-2009, 06:04 PM

QZ1

10-05-2009, 06:09 PM

How about we get a Tivo with three tuners first.

innocentfreak

10-05-2009, 06:15 PM

I notice TivoJerry and the other Tivo employees that used to occasionally post on here don't seem to do it anymore. Even if their job titles or the people holding those jobs have changed, there isn't much indication that they pay much attention to the community forum anymore.

I think a recent incident may have been a nail in the coffin for their posting on here. They probably still read the board but may no longer be allowed to participate. They could also just be extremely busy with some of the known projects, new Directivo, Best Buy Tivo, and RCN Tivo not to mention the TW and Comcast software. CES is only 75 days or so away.

How about we get a Tivo with three tuners first.

As far as I know tuners usually go in pairs after the first one so it would go 1,2,4, or 6. Probably once you hit 2 tuners it is easier just to double it than to add a third tuner but I have no idea and am just guessing.

spocko

10-05-2009, 06:24 PM

innocentfreak

10-05-2009, 07:59 PM

Hmm weird there must have been a hiccup. I know BKDTV told me I was wrong and why, and I replied. Now both posts are gone.

Either way I guessed wrong.

The problem with coordinating Tivos is what happens when one Tivo can't connect to another which sometimes happens now. If you can't depend on it, this would put us back in the situation we are in now where you would still need to manage multiple season passes.

I would much rather have as many tuners in one location as I possibly can where I only have one season pass manager to manage and then I could just transfer shows to other rooms which would still be required with coordinated Tivos.

spocko

10-05-2009, 08:20 PM

The problem with coordinating Tivos is what happens when one Tivo can't connect to another which sometimes happens now. ...

I would much rather have as many tuners in one location as I possibly can ...

Good point. A solution relying on multiple tivos distributed across a network couldn't be as reliable as a single box.

Here's another idea: They could could keep 2 tuners in the "standard" model and put 4 tuners in the "XL" model. The XL already has a higher price point, and the additional tuners would help set it apart from everything else.

lrhorer

10-06-2009, 01:47 AM

Personally I have no need for 4 tuners. I'd prefer to have a lower cost box with only 2 tuners unless the cost increment for > 2 tuners was small. I'd venture a guess that most users would share this perspective, or at least most users outside this forum. :)
I suspect this to be the case, as well. Oh, sure, if it costs nothing, then everyone would like to have four tuners, but that's not the reality. I dearly loved the transition from a single tuner to a dual tuner back in 2006 (when I bought my first S3), but even in the six years prior to that, conflicts I could not resolve one way or the other were moderately rare. With two tuners, I have only had a handful of irreconcilable scheduling events in the last three years. Since now both the East Coast and West Coast feeds of most of the premium channels are available here, and since a fair percentage of programs of interest are broadcast multiple times throughout the month, it's getting easier and easier to somewhat automatically resolve any conflicts which do arise. Of course, not every CATV system offers both East and West Coast feeds, but with the advent of SDV, it is very liable to become more and more common throughout the nation. That doesn't help those whose CATV systems don't provide both feeds, but it does make it less and less attractive for TiVo as a feature through which TiVo should inflate the cost of their DVR.

Moving from one tuner to two represents a huge gain in performance for a moderate amount of additional hardware and software. Going beyond two tuners represents a greatly diminished gain to the consumer for an even larger differential in expenditure for TiVo than going from one to two tuners. I don't have the exact cost figures available to me, but I suspect it would be a very slender proposition for TiVo at best, and I suspect the higher cost might chase away more prospective buyers than the performance gain attracts.

Coordinated scheduling across multiple boxes might be the sensible answer for people desiring > 2 tuners.
That has been requested many times, but I would be quite happy with merely a little easier conflict handling. Instead of merely a choice of losing one or the other of two programs in a three-way conflict, we should be presented with the option to drop any one of the three. What's more, the TiVo should automatically search for and display additional showings of any one of the three shows in conflict, and allow the user to select a showing of any one of the three at a different time or channel.

lrhorer

10-06-2009, 01:59 AM

Good point. A solution relying on multiple tivos distributed across a network couldn't be as reliable as a single box.

Here's another idea: They could could keep 2 tuners in the "standard" model and put 4 tuners in the "XL" model. The XL already has a higher price point, and the additional tuners would help set it apart from everything else.
That's perfectly true, and it provides a compromise approach which avoids driving away more frugal customers while attracting the customers who desire the greater flexibility of additional tuners. I'm not intimately familiar with the chipsets involved, so I don't know how many resources would be involved for TiVo to support the two diverse product lines. I shouldn't think the additional tooling costs would be too high, and I would expect the differential assembly lines to be moderately inexpensive as such things go, but the additional hardware and software costs could be significant.

moyekj

10-06-2009, 02:04 AM

I'm probably in a big minority then. During fall & winter seasons, 4 concurrent recordings are quite common for me, and then throw in an NBA game 3 times a week or so and quite often I need 5 tuners to cover all my recordings. However I watch as I go - no more than a few days behind most of the time and I delete right away after watching, so I don't need a lot of recording space. If I want to keep anything longer term then I offload it to my PC. I still find the 250GB stock drives of my S3s plenty big enough for my needs but could use a couple more tuners. I usually end up using my PC ATSC tuner for covering the 5th concurrent recording. There have been a few occasions with 6 concurrent recordings in which I had to settle for using an old ReplayTV to record from an analog channel for 1 of them...

ADDENDUM: Viewing conflicts on TiVo is woefully inadequate since one has to wade through countless useless "28 day rule" and other such will not record messages making it difficult to find real ones. An indication with an icon to easily distinguish between different "will not record" messages would go a LONG way in helping out. As it is now you have to go into the details and then use channel down to jump to next message and do that for each one, several pages worth usually. For some shows I often resort to manual (by time and day) repeat recordings in place of season passes or wishlists just to cut down on these annoying "will not record" messages.

spocko

10-06-2009, 02:29 AM

DCIFRTHS

10-06-2009, 06:28 AM

I'm probably in a big minority then. During fall & winter seasons, 4 concurrent recordings are quite common for me...

I'm also part of that minority. I'd like to see four tuners per box.

wkearney99

10-06-2009, 07:34 AM

I'd rather see the ability to share or move passes from one Tivo to another. I'd really like to be able to set up a recording or season pass on one of the other units in the house. At the very least it would help in being able to move them to a new unit when replacing one. But in regular use it would be convenient to make use of the otherwise idle tuners in other units in the house.

schwinn

10-06-2009, 08:54 AM

Conflict resolution was created (via hack) on the old S1 platform long ago, via a TivoWeb module: http://tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?t=138225

Of course, this didn't resolve the sharing-part of the equation, but clearly, it's not that complicated to get the CR portion solved easily. I, too, wish that we could "network" the Tivos to provide CR in this way.

But, as mentioned before, the problem is the media companies... they are locking down the recording to "copy-once" which means that the Tivo isn't allowed to copy it to another unit... which means streaming is the only option we have... and in that case, yes, bandwidth could be a bit of an issue. But is it really? I mean, the HDHomeRun device (two QAM tuners on an ethernet line) can stream two channels digitally... why couldn't the Tivo?

As for the OP... I agree, I'd like to see more than 2 tuners... but having two Tivos with two separate tuners, that would be cool, too... or 2x 2-tuner HDs... :) But I don't see that happening anytime soon. The next revision will likely be just that, a "revision" of the existing hardware. I'd love for it to be a price-improved revision, but who knows.

TrueTurbo

10-06-2009, 06:14 PM

I too need 4 tuners to capture all the programs I want to watch. There are a couple of nights each week when at least 3 programs conflict at say, 8pm, that I'd like to record. A 4 tuner TiVo would at least let me record 2 shows while I watch the 3rd! :D

Here's an idea. I'd buy a 2nd, dual-tuner TiVo tomorrow, if I didn't have to pay for the TiVo service for the 2nd TiVo! It would be great if 1 subscription could be applied to at least 2 TiVos in a household. :cool:

As a current solution, I have a Comcast DVR in addition to my TiVo, so I set season pass recordings on the Comcast DVR when a conflict occurs on my TiVo. The Comcast DVR is included in my package, so I don't have the additional cost of renting the DVR. However, it's no TiVo! The interface sucks and the internal disk is too small! :(

daveak

10-06-2009, 06:30 PM

On the coordinated scheduling, could you not make one TiVo the master unit and any others slaves? That is, a master to do list would be on the 'main' TiVo and it would check with the others and assign either auto or manually (you are notified and have the option) and another TiVo would pick up the recording on its to do list? I know TiVos do not always 'talk' to each other, but once it is a to do list it should happen - regardless if the TiVos can currently see each other. Or the scheduling could be done via your network connected PC (or Mac for those on the other side) with a master ToDo list with the slave or sub ToDo lists on each respective TiVo?

archer75

10-06-2009, 06:33 PM

I'd kill for a 3 tuner tivo. There are at least two times a week that I need 3 tuners at once. 4 tuners would be nice but there's only a few times a year that I need that. Then again i'm sure I could find a use for that 4th tuner ;)

wkearney99

10-06-2009, 07:10 PM

There's a discount for additional Tivos. Yeah, we'd all like something for free, meanwhile the service performs a worthwhile task, arguably better than the cable solutions.

The nice part of season passes is being able to pickup the next showing of the program. Use your season pass list to rearrange things. Put the programs that are not going to be shown again higher in the list. Put the on-air network programs above the ones off cable (nbc vs usa as an example). That way the prime time airing of the network will get recorded and the cable program will get recorded when it's shown again (typically the line-up repeats after 11pm). Works great for getting the season premieres that get bunched together this time of year.

For the rare cases of conflicts I've just set my other Tivo to handle the on-air stuff. Then just transfer it later.

Being realistic, it IS JUST TELEVISION, FOLKS. Missing a show now and then is probably GOOD FOR YOU. Obsessing about a bajillion-tuner Tivo probably isn't.

Adam1115

10-06-2009, 07:15 PM

It already has 4 tuners. It just isn't able to use them all at once.

It would be nice if they could lift that restriction though...

TivoCentral

10-06-2009, 08:03 PM

The obvious first question I think you should ask is - "do I actually need four tuners?" You mention you have a large family; but can you remember specific cases where a desired show had to be missed because your Tivo(s) were tied up?

While it's not for everyone, personally it's at least a weekly occurrence that I would be able to use 3 tuners or more. ...And I don't have a big family, it's just my wife and me! Often, there are two shows recording simultaneously, and we'd like to watch a third show live. Less often, we'd like to record 3 shows at once... and still be able to watch a 4th one live.

Of course, 90% of the time, nothing is recording. Isn't that the way it always goes?? :)

rtoledo

10-07-2009, 03:29 PM

The obvious first question I think you should ask is - "do I actually need four tuners?" You mention you have a large family; but can you remember specific cases where a desired show had to be missed because your Tivo(s) were tied up?

I'm not saying you don't need four tuners. All I'm saying is make sure you're thinking about addressing an actual problem rather than self-justifying a response to marketing hype. Sorta similar to "ooh, I really need that new 10 pound laptop with the zippy quadruple core processor!" :D

:D yes almost daily and I turned in the second DVR to Verizon so even so more now.

rtoledo

10-07-2009, 03:30 PM

It would be better to bring out a TiVo with a DVD burner built in, like what the Humax did. It's to eliminate all the hurdles/jumps/loops one has to go through to back up recordings.

already have a burner attached to the DVR, the real problem is recording 2 or 3 shows *while* we watch a fourth. and yes it happens

rtoledo

10-07-2009, 03:31 PM

Ceton says their quad-tuner card will cost $300 to $600, depending on volume. To me, that suggests an initial price of $400-$500. If I were TiVo, I would be more concerned about cheaper dual-tuner CableCard solutions coming in the second half of 2010.

I don't think there's much chance of a 4x ATSC/QAM TiVo, unless it's marketed as a whole home solution with low-cost MoCA extenders. That would be a pleasant surprise, but I expect TiVo to cut costs with an updated/enhanced refresh of the existing model.

The DVD format is on the way out. There's no future in that.

Most consumers just want to record and view their favorite programs. They could care less about archival.
I would be happy as long as a solution is available, even if it means renting 2 M-cards from Verizon if Tivo goes that route.

rtoledo

10-07-2009, 03:38 PM

You are of course entirely entitled to your opinion, but I disagree emphatically:

1. No quality narrative is exclusively about its outcome.

2. With many fine narratives, the outcome is well known at the outset. Few people who watched Apollo 13 or Romeo and Juliet did not know how they would end beforehand. Knowing the outcome does not mean the narrative is diminished in any way.

3. No person absorbing a quality narrative of any extent can possibly extract every nuance and relationship in a single session unless one has a completely eidetic memory. Even then, one must review it repeatedly in one's memory before one extracts all the narrative has to offer.

4. Any narrative not worth experiencing multiple times is hardly worth experiencing once.

5. Many directors put enjoyable little "Easter Eggs" in their movies. It is rare to spot these the first time through.

Every time I watch a good movie, I gain something else from the experience. Sometimes some of the things I gain are quite profound. Other times they are just fun. Every time I watch Judgment at Nuremberg or A Man for All Seasons I learn something important. On the other side of the coin, I had probably watched The Great Race 100 times before I noticed in the ballroom scene in Carpathia, Jack Lemon is dancing with a man!! It sometimes has taken me several viewings to spot Alfred Hitchcock in some of his movies. Little things or big ones, there is always something to be gained by reading a book, listening to a song, or watching a motion picture another time.

And yes, I have a couple of thousand movies archived, to watch whenever my friends, family, or just myself wish. Most are not on DVD, though.

totally agree with you, but I think the answers to my question as is usually the case in forums has veered way off.

there are times i record and times I do not, I too have a wall full of original movies, and i hate that wall and the room it stills from me ;)

but just the ability to capture tv shows that the networks air at the same time is what I want, then i will watch and delete most if not all.

right now when you are recording "the" second show you MUSt stay on that channel. same goes if you decide to record, the dvr must saty and play that channel while you record, so you always have really the option to watch that now or loose some other show or go in another room

it's good to finally be able to sit at once convinience and watch a show that in the past you would have lost

rtoledo

10-07-2009, 03:57 PM

Yeah, really. When they offer a gigabit interface to the house I will be impressed. Until then... no, thanks.

my comment was not about AT&T's "high" quality , only about the ability to record 4 shows at the same time. I don't have them so I do not know if indeed it's possible or not.

rtoledo

10-07-2009, 04:08 PM

Personally I have no need for 4 tuners. I'd prefer to have a lower cost box with only 2 tuners unless the cost increment for > 2 tuners was small. I'd venture a guess that most users would share this perspective, or at least most users outside this forum. :)

Coordinated scheduling across multiple boxes might be the sensible answer for people desiring > 2 tuners.

well you are entitled to that, but this thread is not about a "cheap tivo".

I think a 199.00 tivo HD is fairly cheap. besides when ever any company put's out a top of the line product , it makes the current line up cheaper by comparison ;) .

every 3 or 4 years chipsets/ procesors double in capability and for the most part remain at the same price (inflation not counting). so what ever the chipset inside the tivo HD cost 3 years ago is probably about the same of what the new CHIPSET in the Ceton card will go for in 2010. just a guess of course

and these new chipset wil do it's magic with ONE M-card, up to 6 according to the article.

mikeyts

10-07-2009, 04:17 PM

my comment was not about AT&T's "high" quality , only about the ability to record 4 shows at the same time. I don't have them so I do not know if indeed it's possible or not.People who've reported about it in our local San Diego forum (hdtv.forsandiego.com) like the service and appear to be happy with picture quality (they've mostly switched from Cox or Time Warner cable providers). Like the satellite services, video bit rate is going to be substantially reduced as compared to cable, but they're using H.264/AVC compression, which can easily exceed the quality of MPEG2 at half the bit rate (of course, a transcode can't be any better than its original MPEG2 source and might suffer from the transcoding process). Though you can record 4 programs simultaneously, you can only tune two HD streams on all of the tuners in your home. At this point, I record almost no standard def, so the 4-recording-at-a-time wouldn't help me personally.

aaronwt

10-07-2009, 05:24 PM

While it's not for everyone, personally it's at least a weekly occurrence that I would be able to use 3 tuners or more. ...And I don't have a big family, it's just my wife and me! Often, there are two shows recording simultaneously, and we'd like to watch a third show live. Less often, we'd like to record 3 shows at once... and still be able to watch a 4th one live.

Of course, 90% of the time, nothing is recording. Isn't that the way it always goes?? :)

It's a daily occurance for me and was also the case 8 years ago when I had several of the DirecTiVos for SD with two tuners. I only had a couple of HD tuners eight years ago for HD recordings and had problems with HD too. But I always had to have an SD backup since you never knew if the local station would screw up the HD broadcast.

Now I have many days that I have four , five , or sometimes eight things recording concurrently. I might not watch everything but at least I have it if I want to.

I still have around 2TB to 3TB of HD material I recorded between 2001 and 2004 lying around. Like the 2002 winter Olympics in HD and all the super bowls that were available in HD. I can probably delete those but I also have dozens of movies I recorded in HD back then that are not available on Blu-ray Disc yet.

The current TiVo makes archiving so easy now. Not to mention 1TB drives for only $75 compared to 250GB drives for $300 back in 2002.

If they do ever come out with a four tuner TiVo it wil be hard for e to justify purchsing it since I already have four or five units with Lifetime service, so unless they die on me I already have many tuners to use. Although it would be nice to replace the four TiVo boxes in my main viewing area with only two boxes.

That Don Guy

10-07-2009, 06:02 PM

GoAWest

10-07-2009, 06:26 PM

One question nobody seems to ask:

How much strain would four, or even three, simultaneous streams be on the hard drive? (Even when you're not recording anything, it would have to maintain 3-4 30-minute buffers simultaneously.)

-- Don

I've got eight digital tuners (SiDust HDHRs -- dual tuners [ATSC & ClearQAM], 100Mbps Enet out) working with a home-built PC (Athlon X2, multiple SATA drives, GigE, WinXP) and some purchased software over a GigE network. I regularly have 4+ shows recording (480p, 720p, 1080i -- usually the later two) at the same time while watching shows (usually already recorded, but can watch Live on same or other channels) from that system on one or two HTPC-connected-TVs over the GigE network. I've got an hour live-buffer on any Live show but don't use it much (e.g. if watching a recorded show). It keeps up fine.

Data from wikipedia:

A typical "desktop HDD" might store between 120 GB and 2 TB although rarely above 500GB of data (based on US market data[17]) rotate at 5,400 to 10,000 rpm and have a media transfer rate of 1 Gbit/s or higher. (1 GB = 109 B; 1 Gbit/s = 109 bit/s)

HDV 1080i uses a recording data rate of 25 Mbit/s while HDV 720p records at 19.7 Mbit/s.

CrispyCritter

10-07-2009, 06:30 PM

One question nobody seems to ask:

How much strain would four, or even three, simultaneous streams be on the hard drive? (Even when you're not recording anything, it would have to maintain 3-4 30-minute buffers simultaneously.)

-- Don
I suspect disk throughput isn't the issue as much as disk seeks. Note you are understating the problem by quite a bit. 4 tuners means supporting 7-8 streams at once (4 input streams through the tuners, one output stream to the TV, at least one MRV stream in each direction, other network streaming (eg. netflix)), as well as the normal database indexing of shows that goes on in the background. There's real-time constraints on a lot of those streams.

Total disk throughput is fine, but that many streams writing to that many spots on the disk means lots of seeks, which may be a problem - disk caches help on average, but with this many real-time constraints it is worst case behavior you have to worry about, not average seek behavior.

mattack

10-07-2009, 10:18 PM

I've said it before in other threads - I want more tuners even if JUST to be able to add padding to EVERY show I record.. Possibly even multi-minute padding.

I have enough tuners on various Tivos/my non-Tivo hard drive/DVD recorder that I have padding on the majority of recordings nowadays, but still sometimes run into clipping issues.. (yes, this is also compounded by the fact that the Tivo can't simply use the SAME tuner for recordings on the same channel one after another and still have padding -- some have said other DVRs do this)

I'm purposely trying to cut down on new shows this season so # of simultaneous recordings is less important at the moment.

aaronwt

10-07-2009, 10:50 PM

One question nobody seems to ask:

How much strain would four, or even three, simultaneous streams be on the hard drive? (Even when you're not recording anything, it would have to maintain 3-4 30-minute buffers simultaneously.)

-- Don

Absolutely none. A 5400 rpm drive would have zero problems. An HD stream is very slow. At most it's 19mbs.

The hard drives I used in the early 2000's had no problems when I used them with multiple HD streams. they certainly have no problem now, plus the drives now are much faster.

The current TiVo easily handles 4 streams with no difficulty. Recording two items, watching and item, and downloading or trsnaferring an item. It causes no issues with it's slow processor.
A newer TiVo with faster processor should have even less problems, even with double the streams.
Again, it's not like the streams have any great bandwidth. HD streams take very little bandwidth.

bigpatky

10-08-2009, 04:22 AM

4 tuners would be great for a sports fan. as a fan of detroit's pro sports teams, it gets pretty busy in april. tigers have started and the pistons and redwings are going down the stretch or are already in the playoffs. there are times when all three teams are playing at once. try telling a die hard fan to choose. it sucks. even if you decide on the basketball and hockey games for your 2 tuners because the playoffs are obviously more important, that also means that the rest of the family doesn't get the season finale of the office or something like that. major conflicts where 4 tuners would really help out.

i also strongly agree with the earlier poster who mentioned he might be recording 2 shows at a time, but they might slightly overlap and you need the buffer for the shows starting right after to avoid the conflicts. i'm seeing that more and more, where a show goes from 8:00 to 8:32 instead of just 8:30. this prevents you from being able to start 2 new shows recording at 8:30. i have no idea if the networks are doing it on purpose, but it's getting EXTREMELY annoying. 4 tuners would be very valuable.

gastrof

10-08-2009, 05:40 AM

...Being realistic, it IS JUST TELEVISION, FOLKS. Missing a show now and then is probably GOOD FOR YOU. Obsessing about a bajillion-tuner Tivo probably isn't.

The heretic must be burned!!!!

:p

bkdtv

10-08-2009, 09:45 AM

i also strongly agree with the earlier poster who mentioned he might be recording 2 shows at a time, but they might slightly overlap and you need the buffer for the shows starting right after to avoid the conflicts. i'm seeing that more and more, where a show goes from 8:00 to 8:32 instead of just 8:30. this prevents you from being able to start 2 new shows recording at 8:30. i have no idea if the networks are doing it on purpose, but it's getting EXTREMELY annoying. 4 tuners would be very valuable.The TiVo Series2 and Series3/TivoHD have a feature called "overlap protection" which eliminates most conflicts when programs conflict by up to five minutes. This feature cuts up to five minutes off the lowest priority season pass (in Season Pass Manager) if doing so will allow another program to record.

Some people make the mistake of padding their recordings by 5 minutes; if you do that, any programs scheduled to run 1-2 minutes past the hour cause a conflict, because 1-2 minutes + 5 minutes of padding exceeds the allowed time for overlap protection. In the overwhelming majority of cases, padding is unnecessary because the TiVo reflects the correct start and end times, even when they do not fall on the hour. The obvious exception is shows that follow reality programs like American Idol; American Idol and similar performance shows will often run 30-60 seconds late, so it's a good idea to pad the shows that follow by 1-2 minutes. Just don't pad by more or you may cancel out overlap protection.

I definitely agree with the earlier poster that an extra tuner would benefit sports fans. A high percentage of MLB, NBA, and NHL sporting events are broadcast at 7-10pm, which is obviously the same as most network programs.

aaronwt

10-08-2009, 11:15 AM

If I pad it's only 1 or two minutes for those programs that sometime run over 1 or two minutes from their scheduled time. The only time I pad a large amount would be a live program. But on a weekly program, a 5 minute padding serves no purpose.

But I also don't want any shows cut off so I don't use overlap protection, but with seven TiVos in daily use I don't usually have problems.

Jonathan_S

10-08-2009, 12:17 PM

It already has 4 tuners. It just isn't able to use them all at once.
Technically true. And I'd happily trade in the 2 NTSC tuners (and associated mpeg2 encoding hardware) for 2 more QAM (digital cable) tuners.

(Not that it'd be a hard thing to give up since my provider is all digital, so the NTSC tuners are useless to me anyway)

Jonathan_S

10-08-2009, 12:23 PM

If I pad it's only 1 or two minutes for those programs that sometime run over 1 or two minutes from their scheduled time. The only time I pad a large amount would be a live program. But on a weekly program, a 5 minute padding serves no purpose.I can think of a couple specific exceptions to that, but they're all for shows that follow live programs. CBS's Sunday night, post-football, lineup can run up to 45+ minutes late, and SciFi's post wrestling lineup consistently runs 5 minutes late.

Adam1115

10-08-2009, 12:33 PM

It already has 4 tuners. It just isn't able to use them all at once.

It would be nice if they could lift that restriction though...

Technically true. And I'd happily trade in the 2 NTSC tuners (and associated mpeg2 encoding hardware) for 2 more QAM (digital cable) tuners.

(Not that it'd be a hard thing to give up since my provider is all digital, so the NTSC tuners are useless to me anyway)

I'd just be happy if I could use what's already there.

Be really nice to be able to record TWO ATSC OTA shows at the same time as TWO cable shows...

Jonathan_S

10-08-2009, 12:47 PM

I'd just be happy if I could use what's already there.

Be really nice to be able to record TWO ATSC OTA shows at the same time as TWO cable shows...I though the digital tuners were combined ATSC/QAM parts and that the extra 2 tuners were the analog NTSC tuners. I'd be suprised if the seperate physical signal paths existed that you'd need to record 2 ATSC and 2 QAM streams simultaniously.

Adam1115

10-08-2009, 01:22 PM

gastrof

10-08-2009, 04:32 PM

Analog cable is going the way of the dinosaur.

Adam1115

10-08-2009, 04:40 PM

Analog cable is going the way of the dinosaur.

Yea... I've been hearing that for about 10 years....

bicker

10-08-2009, 05:21 PM

And then one day, it'll happen.

bkdtv

10-08-2009, 05:30 PM

I though the digital tuners were combined ATSC/QAM parts and that the extra 2 tuners were the analog NTSC tuners. I'd be suprised if the seperate physical signal paths existed that you'd need to record 2 ATSC and 2 QAM streams simultaniously.
I'm not sure about that, I believe the ATSC is completely seperate...

But regardless, maybe, but what about 2 ATSC and 2 Analog Cable shows?No.

The TivoHD has two MicroTune MT2131 tuners. Each tuner feeds a single QAM/ATSC demodulator and a single Philips/NXT SAA7138CHL (for analog video).

Much of the TivoHD mainboard is devoted to analog support (Philips ADCs, VIXS XCode MP@ML encoder, dedicated encoder memory). If TiVo retains analog support, that probably rules out any cost-effective design with more than two tuners. If TiVo were to eliminate analog support, it could probably create a quad-tuner design with a similar sized board.

If TiVo eliminates analog support, I think it's entirely feasible for them to hit $199 with a dual-tuner product. Or they could keep the $249-$299 price and make the jump to 3-4 tuners. Possibilities below:

Dual-tuner, 320GB TivoHD w/ MoCA networking ($149-$199)

Each TiVo would feature "plug and play" networking over the existing coax in the home with MoCA. All would support a shared NPL and shared Season Pass Manager. Recordings on other DVRs could be accessed and played (streamed) just as if they were stored locally; each TiVo could stream up to three recordings to other TiVos at the same time. In effect, a customer with three of these boxes would have the equivalent of a six-tuner DVR.

At Tivo.com, the user would select whether they wanted each DVR to be "single" (independent) or "married" (shared NPL and Season Pass Manager). Alternatively, this could be set through a menu or guided setup.

Quad-tuner, 500GB TivoHD w/ MoCA networking ($299) | MoCA extenders ($129-$149)

The customer could order extenders direct from TiVo.com for $129-149. The extenders would feature plug-and-play coax networking with MoCA; they'd have no storage or tuners, but they could access and play all recordings stored on the quad-tuner DVR. The extender would also allow the user to view the guide, schedule recordings, and watch liveTV using inactive tuners on the DVR. Such extender functionality could be incorporated into select Best Buy STBs and TVs.

One M-CARD would support all four tuners. On cable systems that use SDV with Cisco/SA hardware, two SDV adapters would be required to support all four tuners with digital cable.
If the cost savings on the first solution makes it feasible to offer a subscription product for $149, or a non-subscription product for $399, then I think that's a compelling solution. Cost and subscription fees are the #1 barrier to DVR adoption.

If TiVo can offer a quad-tuner product for $299 with MoCA extenders for $99-$149, I like that option too. If there is no tru2way support (= no integrated SDV support), then there are obvious issues with the quad-tuner solution. Cisco's SDV adapter only supports two tuners, and I doubt cable companies want to hand out two per DVR per customer.

daveak

10-08-2009, 05:45 PM

"Dad?" F

"Yes my son" F

"What is analog?" S

"It was before the digital age, a continuous stream of video or sound as opposed to digital which breaks everything into electronic bits..." F

Son interrupts
"Is that like standard definition?" S

"No standard def would be like the old style DVDs, those older round silver discs with the hole in the middle..." F

Son interrupts
"But the picture is so lousy on those Dad and you can only watch them in 2D, and you have to actually load them to watch. Why would anybody want to go thru all that trouble with such awful graphics?" S

"Well once upon a time nearly everyone got their digital media on those discs, even music." F

"Are you serious Dad?, what a waste of resources and time." S

"Yeah well that was back in the day when people use to actually discuss how many tuners they would need to record their shows?" F

"Ah dad, I'm confused, what's a tuner and why would you need to record something?" S

"Once upon a time, people needed a DVR to record er 'save' a show if they could not watch it when it was scheduled." F

"Dad, when you say scheduled, is that like the release date/ time for a new program? and You mean people just couldn't access anything they wanted at anytime through their medial portal?" S

"No, people without DVRs had to schedule their lives around their favorite show. Even TiVo was once just a DVR, it even had tuners." F

"Wow Dad, I'm glad I didn't have to live through that. It must have been hard to watch all that low quality video and never even know if you were gonna get what you wanted. Our TiVo 10 MCE sure is great Dad. You think mom will let us get the 4D game extension for Christmas?"

innocentfreak

10-08-2009, 07:04 PM

Quad-tuner, 500GB TivoHD w/ MoCA networking ($299) | MoCA extenders ($129)

The customer could order extenders from TiVo.com for $129. The extenders would feature plug-and-play coax networking with MoCA; they'd have no storage or tuners, but they could access and play all recordings stored on the quad-tuner DVR. The extender would also allow the user to view the guide, schedule recordings, and watch liveTV using inactive tuners on the DVR. Such extender functionality would be incorporated into select Best Buy STBs and TVs.

One M-CARD would support all four tuners. On cable systems that use SDV with Cisco/SA hardware, two SDV adapters would be required to support all four tuners with digital cable.

Can a device work both Moca and ethernet at the same time or would you need a MoCa to Cat5 adapter? I ask because with MoCa while the Tivos could talk to each other, how would they connect to the Tivo servers if the house has internet through the Cat5? I know with Fios they can do either ethernet or MoCA but they have to reprovision the ONT for one or the other and not both.

Also I would think it would still need an ethernet connection to be backwards compatible to any of the series 3 for MRV unless you would then have to buy another adapter for each Tivo to convert ethernet to MoCa.

bkdtv

10-08-2009, 07:59 PM

innocentfreak

10-08-2009, 08:15 PM

bareyb

10-08-2009, 08:22 PM

Never mind the fine print where you are limited to I think only 2 (maybe 3 now) highly compressed "HD" streams at a time in the whole house. No thanks. Yes I suppose you can record several SD streams at once, but at least for me there is hardly anything in SD I record anymore...

Didn't know that... Thanks for the info. I've been guilty of "tuner envy" when I see those Uverse commercials too. Not that I really need it. I have two TiVo's and four tuners and I must admit, it's been "enough". There have been only a couple of occasions where I needed a fifth tuner and in neither case did I care enough about the show to put it on our other Comcast DVR (so I guess I technically have SIX tuners, but we only use four).

mattack

10-08-2009, 10:15 PM

The TiVo Series2 and Series3/TivoHD have a feature called "overlap protection" which eliminates most conflicts when programs conflict by up to five minutes.

Personally, I have overlap protection turned on, but (obsessively?) check the To Do list to see if anything WILL be partially clipped, and then manually make changes (remove padding, manually record on another recorder, etc.) to ensure I get the whole show -- except for late night talk shows where I let the beginning be clipped (so Letterman and the TS are full recordings).

and as someone else mentioned about padding, the gametrailers TV show has some very weird official time slot, but I have to have several minutes of pre and post padding to get the entire thing. (I think I admittedly currently have too much padding on either end, but haven't checked and kept track of how much it really needed.)

rtoledo

10-09-2009, 05:07 AM

Cool. I appreciate it.

Of those two options I think I would rather have the second since I already have Tivo HDs. This of course is assuming subscription fees and lifetime costs the same for a 4 tuner box versus a 2 tuner box.

Even without Tivo HDs the first option would be cheaper with one Cablecard versus 2 assuming Tivo costs the same.

Well I'm sure this will be a tough one for the folks at Tivo, but in the end IF this new chipset works as is being touted, then Tivo would loose out to everybody out there with a new WIN & machine and a Ceton card as it will do just that.

so in the end unless this chipset is restricted to ONLY Ceton, tivo will have to go that route to "compete" :eek:

rtoledo

10-09-2009, 05:09 AM

Didn't know that... Thanks for the info. I've been guilty of "tuner envy" when I see those Uverse commercials too. Not that I really need it. I have two TiVo's and four tuners and I must admit, it's been "enough". There have been only a couple of occasions where I needed a fifth tuner and in neither case did I care enough about the show to put it on our other Comcast DVR (so I guess I technically have SIX tuners, but we only use four).

LOL I need to use that line too. I suffer from tuner envy :p

rtoledo

10-09-2009, 05:12 AM

moyekj

10-09-2009, 10:26 AM

that's the beauty of this new chipset in the card they claim it can handle 6 tuners with ONE M-card:up: Only problem being that the current cheap Tuning Adapter hardware can only handle 2 streams at once and hence if you have SDV deployed in your area that could become an issue. I was really excited about forthcoming CableCard 4-6 multi-tuner cards until that ugly detail about TAs surfaced since my area is employing SDV.

fyodor

10-09-2009, 10:46 AM

Can a device work both Moca and ethernet at the same time or would you need a MoCa to Cat5 adapter? I ask because with MoCa while the Tivos could talk to each other, how would they connect to the Tivo servers if the house has internet through the Cat5? I know with Fios they can do either ethernet or MoCA but they have to reprovision the ONT for one or the other and not both.

Also I would think it would still need an ethernet connection to be backwards compatible to any of the series 3 for MRV unless you would then have to buy another adapter for each Tivo to convert ethernet to MoCa.

You would have a MoCA-ethernet bridge at your router. So your MOCA-enabled tivos would all connect to the IP network through either a MoCA-ethernet-bridge at the router or through a MoCA enabled router (which is basically a router with a MoCA-ethernet bridge built in). Once connected to the IP network, they'd be able to get internet access, connect to any Tivos that might be connected through ethernet or wireless, and connect to home computers, etc.

moyekj

10-09-2009, 10:55 AM

With built in MoCA as long as one of the MoCA enabled devices is connected to your ethernet network then all MoCA devices will have access to it. For example in my setup the downstairs TiVo connects to a Motorola NIM100 (MoCA bridge device) which then connects to my NIM100 upstairs which in turn is hooked up to my router. For that setup both Tivos have full access to my ethernet network and of course internet.

With integrated MoCA it would be essentially same with the only caveat being that if the MoCA TiVo connecting to ethernet network is non functional or powered off then this would mean other MoCA devices would lose ethernet network access as well.

fyodor

10-09-2009, 11:06 AM

innocentfreak

10-09-2009, 04:21 PM

Only problem being that the current cheap Tuning Adapter hardware can only handle 2 streams at once and hence if you have SDV deployed in your area that could become an issue. I was really excited about forthcoming CableCard 4-6 multi-tuner cards until that ugly detail about TAs surfaced since my area is employing SDV.

Cisco TAs can handle only 2 streams at once while Motorola can handle 6 at a time from what I have read. Also it is possible last I read they could release firmware if they chose to do so that would allow them to up from 2 streams to 6 streams.

I know one of the Ceton testers, erkotz, on thegreenbutton.com
(http://www.thegreenbutton.com) has the 6 tuner card with 3 Cisco tuning adapters without any issues. According to Ceton he has been very helpful with SDV testing so you may want to look at some of the posts in the Ceton thread (http://thegreenbutton.com/forums/t/78488.aspx?PageIndex=1) over there.

mikeyts

10-09-2009, 05:02 PM

It mystifies me what TA's have to do with streams. It seems like a discrete operation, almost completely divorced from the video--they just tell you where to find the streams on the wire and relay a few house-keeping messages from the network ("are you still using that channel?", etc). Most of the time the thing shouldn't be doing much of anything at all. It might have to keep track of what switched channels you're tuned to, but there shouldn't be any appreciable difference in the amount of resources required to handle 2 streams as opposed to 100.

CableCARDs, on the other hand, have to run decryption on every byte of every protected channel that you're currently tuning.

moyekj

10-09-2009, 05:55 PM

Cisco TAs can handle only 2 streams at once while Motorola can handle 6 at a time from what I have read. Also it is possible last I read they could release firmware if they chose to do so that would allow them to up from 2 streams to 6 streams. Hope that is the case. I happen to be in Motorola headend and we're still waiting for Motorola TAs to be made available to us by Cox. They've delayed deployment a couple of times already - apparently having to tweak their whole headend architecture to support TAs. I also don't understand why the TAs would care about number of streams on the UDCP side.

JasonRossSmith

10-10-2009, 09:59 AM

Regarding Tivo employees not being around much:

I think a recent incident may have been a nail in the coffin for their posting on here. They probably still read the board but may no longer be allowed to participate.

Can anyone explain further? I mean, what the "incident" was? The part about being busy makes sense but it sounds like there was some sort of fiasco that might have got some folks in trouble? Mind posting a link to that post/thread?

Thanks!

Also, to all, I read through the this thread and didn't see anything about that Nero Liquid TV that runs on a PC. Doesn't that support up to 4 tuners, and doesn't that software basically just turn your PC into a Tivo? Would that work?

-Jason

bkdtv

10-10-2009, 10:54 AM

Regarding Tivo employees not being around much:

Can anyone explain further? I mean, what the "incident" was? The part about being busy makes sense but it sounds like there was some sort of fiasco that might have got some folks in trouble? Mind posting a link to that post/thread?http://www.zatznotfunny.com/2009-08/tivo-loses-more-customers-sues-att-verizon/

That blog entry previously took TCF post from a TiVo employee out of context to support his view that improvements were being made at an "unhurried pace." The actual TiVo comment specifically concerned the Java photo app in the TiVo Desktop software, not general TiVo hardware or software development.

ZNF removed the quote after complaints were made.

rtoledo

10-10-2009, 12:03 PM

rtoledo

10-10-2009, 12:09 PM

Is this right? Would it necessarily be the case that a TiVO with both MoCA and Ethernet connections could bridge the two networks? Are there other CE MoCA devices that do bridging?

F

All the verizon FIOS boxes made by Motorola comunicate with each other or at least the DVR's can feed video to the non DVR boxes over the MOCA bridge built into the Actiontec mi424r router or the new Westell 9100em router, it has 2 MOCA chips/channels for a total of 14 devices as each chip can handle only 7 devices in a home/network

while the video channels arrive at the ONT in one fiber channels the regular "internet" connection comes in on another fiber channels, the MOCA chipset in the router is connected to the ONT where it get's it's video and distribute's it over the MOCA , at the same time there's a bridge between the MOCA and the Ethernet allowing the Moca devices to go out on the net and get their TV GUIDE indo which the FIOS boxes get from a server Verizon runs

I bought one of the new Westells on Ebay and it has 2 MOCa chips in it and can handle up to 14 set top boxes ;) and the MOCA speed is as high or higher than gigabit fiber ;)

rtoledo

10-10-2009, 12:37 PM

Cisco TAs can handle only 2 streams at once while Motorola can handle 6 at a time from what I have read. Also it is possible last I read they could release firmware if they chose to do so that would allow them to up from 2 streams to 6 streams.

I know one of the Ceton testers, erkotz, on thegreenbutton.com
(http://www.thegreenbutton.com) has the 6 tuner card with 3 Cisco tuning adapters without any issues. According to Ceton he has been very helpful with SDV testing so you may want to look at some of the posts in the Ceton thread (http://thegreenbutton.com/forums/t/78488.aspx?PageIndex=1) over there.

WOW I just had to come back and thank you for that link , awesome info on that thread, back to reading bye.

moyekj

10-10-2009, 01:13 PM

can you explain more about TA's ? and SDV ? or links

thanks
SDV FAQ (http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?t=357703) is a good read for meaning of SDV and TAs.
Here (http://www.cablelabs.com/specifications/OC-SP-TRIF-I01-080130.pdf) are very technical specifications on TAs.

classicsat

10-10-2009, 01:38 PM

can you explain more about TA's ? and SDV ? or links

thanks

In a nutshell, SDV is when linear channels are placed on the cable as requested, rather than all the time. A TA is a two-way device, that one-way cablecard tuners such as TiVo, use to request an SDV channel.

bicker

10-10-2009, 02:04 PM

Uh, technically, doesn't placing them "on the cable as requested" (instead of "all the time") make them non-linear channels?

Topmounter

10-11-2009, 02:36 AM

SDV is a bit like VOD for linear channels.... Depending upon the implementation, the Kung Fu channel would only be streamed to your node or service group if someone was tuned to it... allowing a greater selection of channels without dedicating 24x7 bandwidth for every one of those channels.

Shawn95GT

10-11-2009, 07:58 PM

I solved this problem with a 2nd and later a 3rd dual tuner box. It is not uncommon to have 4 tuners going at once.

It makes conflict resolution easy - dedicate a tuner to a network!

This being said I'd love to have a single 4 tuner+ (wouldn't it be cool if you could expand the number of tuners with some kind of add-on module?) vs my two S3s on the same TV.

chestnu1

10-12-2009, 07:50 PM

To be realistic any new 4 tuner tivo box would probably have Tru2way and SDV capability built in eliminating the need for any external tuning adapter.

aaronwt

10-12-2009, 08:36 PM

All the verizon FIOS boxes made by Motorola comunicate with each other or at least the DVR's can feed video to the non DVR boxes over the MOCA bridge built into the Actiontec mi424r router or the new Westell 9100em router, it has 2 MOCA chips/channels for a total of 14 devices as each chip can handle only 7 devices in a home/network

while the video channels arrive at the ONT in one fiber channels the regular "internet" connection comes in on another fiber channels, the MOCA chipset in the router is connected to the ONT where it get's it's video and distribute's it over the MOCA , at the same time there's a bridge between the MOCA and the Ethernet allowing the Moca devices to go out on the net and get their TV GUIDE indo which the FIOS boxes get from a server Verizon runs

I bought one of the new Westells on Ebay and it has 2 MOCa chips in it and can handle up to 14 set top boxes ;) and the MOCA speed is as high or higher than gigabit fiber ;)

When did MoCA speeds become faster than gigabit copper?

rtoledo

10-13-2009, 03:15 AM

When did MoCA speeds become faster than gigabit copper?

Aaron you caught me, my CSR is acting up I went and copied this, and it looks like I should have said faster than ethernet 100 not 1000.
"
"Monk, also the VP of communications technology at chipmaker Entropic Communications Inc. (Nasdaq: ENTR), said the MoCA board has kicked off a 2.0 specification effort, but the organization is not ready to talk specifics about features and performance benchmarks that will go into it, other than to say that 2.0 will look to "leapfrog," rather than just enhance, the throughput performance of the current versions.

The latest version, MoCA 1.1, still offers a PHY rate of 270 Mbit/s, but its net throughput, at about 175 Mbit/s, marks a 75 percent improvement over the net throughput of the original 1.0 version. MoCA 1.1, ratified in October, also incorporates "parameterized" QOS -- a management technique that will ensure that enough bandwidth is set aside for premium, hi-def video. The Alliance is in the process of finalizing the 1.1 certification test plan, Monk said. (See MoCA Upgraded .) "

lew

10-13-2009, 10:44 AM

Can a device work both Moca and ethernet at the same time or would you need a MoCa to Cat5 adapter? I ask because with MoCa while the Tivos could talk to each other, how would they connect to the Tivo servers if the house has internet through the Cat5? I know with Fios they can do either ethernet or MoCA but they have to reprovision the ONT for one or the other and not both.

Also I would think it would still need an ethernet connection to be backwards compatible to any of the series 3 for MRV unless you would then have to buy another adapter for each Tivo to convert ethernet to MoCa.

Not really true. The requirement to chose between MoCA or ethernet only applies to what kind of wire (coax or cat5) the installer puts between the ONT and the router. The router can handle wired internet, wireless (G) and MoCA at the same time. Most of the FiOS STBs use MoCA to get guide data and VoD.

The issue would exist for non-FiOS customers who'd want to add a MoCA bridge to their router. That would allow the MoCA enabled tivo to use MoCA to use the internet to get guide data, access Netflix etc.

innocentfreak

10-13-2009, 05:31 PM

Not really true. The requirement to chose between MoCA or ethernet only applies to what kind of wire (coax or cat5) the installer puts between the ONT and the router. The router can handle wired internet, wireless (G) and MoCA at the same time. Most of the FiOS STBs use MoCA to get guide data and VoD.

The issue would exist for non-FiOS customers who'd want to add a MoCA bridge to their router. That would allow the MoCA enabled tivo to use MoCA to use the internet to get guide data, access Netflix etc.

But with Fios you have to actually call in and have them reprovision you from one to the other. I currently have both run since I had internet before TV so they ran cat5 initially and added a Moca router when I added TV. I had them leave me on cat5 since I already wired my house.

From the dslreports.com FAQ on switching
Q. My data source is Broadband Connection (Coax). What do I need to do?

A. Run cat5 wire, or cat5e or cat6 (all will work) properly terminated between the router and the ONT.

Release the DHCP lease, then power off the Actiontec. Plug one end of the cat5 cable into the RJ45 jack on the ONT, and the other end into the WAN ethernet port on the Actiontec.

Call the FSC at 888-553-1555, navigate through the menus to get to tech support. Tell the rep "I want to have the internet connection from my ONT to the Actiontec router changed from the coax connection to the ethernet connection. I understand that is something you can do without additional charge to me because the wire is already in place. Can you do that for me now, please?"

From my understanding this is the same both ways but truth be told I haven't tested it since I only have one MOCA router.

lrhorer

10-13-2009, 08:31 PM

I'm probably in a big minority then.
'Been there, done that, got the T-shirt. :cool:

Actually, I can't remember when I wasn't in the minority.

(Query: what the heck is a "big minority"? Is that like a tall short person?) :D

During fall & winter seasons, 4 concurrent recordings are quite common for me
Ignoring suggestions, of course, they are extremely rare, for me. Then OTOH, I record a lot of movies, and not nearly as much of anything else. On yet the other hand, I have six tuners (3 TiVos) available, so if there is an irresolute conflict, I can always just choose a different TiVo.

ADDENDUM: Viewing conflicts on TiVo is woefully inadequate since one has to wade through countless useless "28 day rule" and other such will not record messages making it difficult to find real ones. An indication with an icon to easily distinguish between different "will not record" messages would go a LONG way in helping out. As it is now you have to go into the details and then use channel down to jump to next message and do that for each one, several pages worth usually. For some shows I often resort to manual (by time and day) repeat recordings in place of season passes or wishlists just to cut down on these annoying "will not record" messages.
Yeah, agreed. IMNSHO, conflict resolution is by far the weakest area of the TiVo UI. Even when the actual resolution is quite simple, TiVo makes it far more painful than it need be.

lrhorer

10-13-2009, 08:40 PM

I'm also part of that minority. I'd like to see four tuners per box.
I'm sure, but the real question is, "How much extra would you be willing to pay for a 4 tuner box?" For me, the answer is, "Not much".

For TiVo, the question is, "How many more boxes can we sell if we add two tuners after raising the price to cover the additional expense?" If the answer is, "Zero or a negative number", then Tivo needs to figure out of there is a price premium which will cover the lost revenue from fewer people buying the unit.

lrhorer

10-13-2009, 08:43 PM

I too need 4 tuners to capture all the programs I want to watch. There are a couple of nights each week when at least 3 programs conflict at say, 8pm, that I'd like to record. A 4 tuner TiVo would at least let me record 2 shows while I watch the 3rd! :D
But are any of those programs re-broadcast at a later time, perhaps on a West Coast feed?

lrhorer

10-13-2009, 08:56 PM

The nice part of season passes is being able to pickup the next showing of the program. Use your season pass list to rearrange things. Put the programs that are not going to be shown again higher in the list. Put the on-air network programs above the ones off cable (nbc vs usa as an example).
YEah, that's my point. There's a big difference between a conflict -which happens all the time - and an irresolute conflict, where three shows are on at the same time and none of the three will be broadcast again any time soon. If a program on Discover, Animal Planet, and TNT all collide, the odds are all three will be shown again at a later time but within a few days or hours. If something on the East Coast feed of HBO, Showtime, TMC, STARZ, or Cinemax conflict with something, then the West Coast feed may not, or once again the program will probably be on again at least once or twice in the 2 week period covered by the guide data.

Being realistic, it IS JUST TELEVISION, FOLKS. Missing a show now and then is probably GOOD FOR YOU. Obsessing about a bajillion-tuner Tivo probably isn't.
'Fair enough. The real question is, "How much additional value does the user actually perceive in a 3rd and 4th tuner?" Several people here are saying they see great value in the feature, but I wonder how many would really buy a 4 tuner TiVo for $750 if they can get a 2 tuner TiVo for $500 or less? Perhaps more to the point, how many of them are going to dump their existing TiVo and spend $750 to get one with two additional tuners?

innocentfreak

10-13-2009, 09:01 PM

'Fair enough. The real question is, "How much additional value does the user actually perceive in a 3rd and 4th tuner?" Several people here are saying they see great value in the feature, but I wonder how many would really buy a 4 tuner TiVo for $750 if they can get a 2 tuner TiVo for $500 or less? Perhaps more to the point, how many of them are going to dump their existing TiVo and spend $750 to get one with two additional tuners?

You may want to read BKDTV's post (http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?p=7539814#post7539814). If he is correct, which is more often than not from what I have seen, than it wouldn't cost that much more to add 2 more tuners.

While I won't be dropping Tivo, I do plan on buying a Ceton card once it comes out which is expected to run 300-600 for a 4 tuner card.

lrhorer

10-13-2009, 09:12 PM

I suspect disk throughput isn't the issue as much as disk seeks.
You are correct, but seeks are not an issue for 4 streams, either. First of all, Linux has some really good I/O schedulers which help to minimize the average seek length. Secondly, the average modern SATA drive has no problem spooling out 4 HD streams. Writing 10 HD streams might be starting to stress the seek mechanism on a single drive. but 4 is not a problem. Note the current TiVo has no problem recording 3 HD streams, as one can record two streams while downloading a third via MRV, while reading a fourth.

Note you are understating the problem by quite a bit. 4 tuners means supporting 7-8 streams at once (4 input streams through the tuners, one output stream to the TV, at least one MRV stream in each direction, other network streaming (eg. netflix)), as well as the normal database indexing of shows that goes on in the background. There's real-time constraints on a lot of those streams.
Yes, but reading takes a lot fewer resources than writing (other than the seek rate, which is identical for reading and writing).

lrhorer

10-13-2009, 09:16 PM

I can think of a couple specific exceptions to that, but they're all for shows that follow live programs. CBS's Sunday night, post-football, lineup can run up to 45+ minutes late, and SciFi's post wrestling lineup consistently runs 5 minutes late.
While true, I can think of a *LOT* more. It's not at all unusual for some of the broadcasters to be off by 30 seconds or so.

MichaelK

10-13-2009, 09:37 PM

...

The problem with coordinating Tivos is what happens when one Tivo can't connect to another which sometimes happens now. If you can't depend on it, this would put us back in the situation we are in now where you would still need to manage multiple season passes.

I would much rather have as many tuners in one location as I possibly can where I only have one season pass manager to manage and then I could just transfer shows to other rooms which would still be required with coordinated Tivos.

there's pluses and minuses to any setup.

What happens when the ONE whole house DVR locks up or has some other software glitch, (which even on the very robust tivo's happen ever now and again) or your drive dies, etc. One could argue that having 2 or your 4 recordings is better than none.

I could go either way. But I'm not sure that the current issues couldn't be worked out or that some other alternative logic couldn't be developed to make multiple boxes work in a failry robust maner.

MichaelK

10-13-2009, 09:38 PM

Conflict resolution was created (via hack) on the old S1 platform long ago, via a TivoWeb module: http://tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?t=138225

Of course, this didn't resolve the sharing-part of the equation, but clearly, it's not that complicated to get the CR portion solved easily. I, too, wish that we could "network" the Tivos to provide CR in this way.

But, as mentioned before, the problem is the media companies... they are locking down the recording to "copy-once" which means that the Tivo isn't allowed to copy it to another unit... which means streaming is the only option we have... and in that case, yes, bandwidth could be a bit of an issue. But is it really? I mean, the HDHomeRun device (two QAM tuners on an ethernet line) can stream two channels digitally... why couldn't the Tivo?
... .

there is NOTHING that stops tivo from MOVING the content. The cablelabs license specifically says it's totally allowed as long as at no point the content is playable on 2 devices at one time. That can easily be accomplished with programming logic.

lrhorer

10-13-2009, 09:38 PM

Aaron you caught me, my CSR is acting up I went and copied this, and it looks like I should have said faster than ethernet 100 not 1000.
...

The latest version, MoCA 1.1, still offers a PHY rate of 270 Mbit/s, but its net throughput, at about 175 Mbit/s, marks a 75 percent improvement over the net throughput of the original 1.0 version. MoCA 1.1, ratified in October, also
I am not intimately familair with MoCA equipment, but in my reading I inferred the bandwidth is shared among the various devices on the segment. I could easily be mistaken, but if not, then in general it won't be faster than 100BaseT except for 2 or maybe 3 host LANs, at most. Remember, the maximum throughput for a 2 host 100BaseT LAN is close to 200 Mbps. A LAN with a decent switch, 2 or 3 PCs, and a couple of TiVos might easily be able to manage well over 300 Mbps. It's not at all unusual for my home LAN to exceed 4000Mbps, total, but then most of my hosts are 1000BaseT.

lrhorer

10-13-2009, 09:42 PM

Uh, technically, doesn't placing them "on the cable as requested" (instead of "all the time") make them non-linear channels?
Yes. There are two (common) types of QAM muxing, linear and SDV. VOD offerings employ SDV.

lrhorer

10-13-2009, 09:46 PM

there's pluses and minuses to any setup.
Of course. All engineering is a set of compromises.

I could go either way. But I'm not sure that the current issues couldn't be worked out or that some other alternative logic couldn't be developed to make multiple boxes work in a failry robust maner.
You don't need to not be sure. ReplayTV's "Hive Mind" system employed very elegant CR routines, among other things, years ago. It's not a matter of, "Can't be done."

MichaelK

10-13-2009, 09:50 PM

But are any of those programs re-broadcast at a later time, perhaps on a West Coast feed?

FYI-

comcast around here specifically removed ALL the west coast feeds because they said anyone could just get a DVR who might want to watch something at a different time. (in their mind the west coast feeds are there just to get the same thing time shifted 3 hours later from our east coast feeds).

Not sure if that's corporate thinking or even industry thinking as a whole. But using the west coast feeds to help conflicts just went out the door for my head end.

And they actually did it around the same time they killed off non-basic analog so it wasn't like they were jammed full with channels and needed to do it to add something else.

lrhorer

10-13-2009, 09:56 PM

You may want to read BKDTV's post (http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?p=7539814#post7539814). If he is correct, which is more often than not from what I have seen, than it wouldn't cost that much more to add 2 more tuners.
I did, and he is perfectly correct in technical detail, as he almost always is. I am skeptical of TiVo's being able to (or wanting to) come in at those price points, however. Heck, look at the S3, which debuted at $700, or the THD XL, which came in about the same price. Of course, he might well be speaking of the price when the platform matures, while I am thinking more of the price shortly after introduction. That, or maybe my estimate is near the maximum while his is near the minimum in the crystal ball. No matter what, the 4 tuner solution will increase the cost of the platform, even if only by $50. By the same token, $50 is more than I want to pay for 2 additional tuners, especially if they only have the one model, so I am potentially forced to pay $150 for six additional tuners. I REALLY don't need 12 tuners.

Truly I don't.

lrhorer

10-13-2009, 10:05 PM

comcast around here specifically removed ALL the west coast feeds because they said anyone could just get a DVR who might want to watch something at a different time. (in their mind the west coast feeds are there just to get the same thing time shifted 3 hours later from our east coast feeds).
'Interesting. Time Warner just added some, here, about a year ago, I think. I think there are maybe 30 or more, now. With SDV, adding an additional coastal feed costs virtually nothing.

And they actually did it around the same time they killed off non-basic analog so it wasn't like they were jammed full with channels and needed to do it to add something else.
San Antonio was one of the first markets to adopt SDV, so TWC has a very robust SDV topology. Although all the channels below 73 are still analog, all the analog channels are reproduced on digital QAMs, and the number of SDV QAMs is comparatively large. They add, delete, and move channels around like jumping beans on a hot plate.

innocentfreak

10-13-2009, 10:28 PM

there's pluses and minuses to any setup.

What happens when the ONE whole house DVR locks up or has some other software glitch, (which even on the very robust tivo's happen ever now and again) or your drive dies, etc. One could argue that having 2 or your 4 recordings is better than none.

I could go either way. But I'm not sure that the current issues couldn't be worked out or that some other alternative logic couldn't be developed to make multiple boxes work in a failry robust maner.

I agree. This is why I would much rather have multiple 4 tuner boxes than multiple 2 tuner boxes though. :) I duplicate all my season passes across all my Tivos but doing that while eliminating micromanaging season pass priority is my ultimate goal.

I did, and he is perfectly correct in technical detail, as he almost always is. I am skeptical of TiVo's being able to (or wanting to) come in at those price points, however. Heck, look at the S3, which debuted at $700, or the THD XL, which came in about the same price. Of course, he might well be speaking of the price when the platform matures, while I am thinking more of the price shortly after introduction. That, or maybe my estimate is near the maximum while his is near the minimum in the crystal ball. No matter what, the 4 tuner solution will increase the cost of the platform, even if only by $50. By the same token, $50 is more than I want to pay for 2 additional tuners, especially if they only have the one model, so I am potentially forced to pay $150 for six additional tuners. I REALLY don't need 12 tuners.

Truly I don't.

I know someone else mentioned it earlier and I could see Tivo doing a Tivo HD XL where it included the 4 tuners and 1-2 TB drive while still offering the Tivo HD at a lower price point. I am not advocating dropping a 2 tuner option but I definitely think they need to expand the tuner options.

No one needs 12 tuners, doesn't mean some of us don't want 12 tuners lol. I know what you are saying though. This was why I believe he also proposed they could do a Moca device to stream content from the 4 tuner box. This way you could buy as many tuners as you want but also extenders.

Either way CES will be pretty telling for me. New Tivo or new Win 7 DVR.

moyekj

10-13-2009, 10:33 PM

I suspect for TiVo to properly support 4 tuners rather than 2 is more of a significant software effort than some people may think (aside from obvious hardware/firmware differences). It also undercuts their subscriptions if they do not proportionally increase service fees to make up for the additional tuners per box. So I suspect TiVo will only consider 4+ tuner models if cable & satellite DVRs begin to make those standard as well which I don't think is likely any time soon. Thus for now I think I'm resigned to considering forthcoming PC CableCard multi-tuners & MCE for a 4+ tuner system. But the cost implications of that considering that extenders really are needed at each TV in the house to accompany that solution are quite high, so perhaps I'll just have to stick to my 2 S3s for another couple of years.

retired_guy

10-13-2009, 10:38 PM

If TiVo announces a four tuner box, I hope they will have fixed the delay which occurs when resequencing or deleting season passes and wishlists. It causes about a two minute lockup for me whenever I do it on my HD and I now really like having a second TiVo available to watch something during that period. I also like the backup the second TiVo provides.

On the other hand, if the incremental cost of four tuners is relatively small, I would certainly prefer it. I get quite a bit of clipping now along with the bother of having to switch TiVos often when I want to watch live TV while two programs are recording. When watching sports, it's common for me to record two games at once and switch back and forth between the games. Games can last many hours and having the ability to record other things during that period would be nice, particularly for the wife.

innocentfreak

10-13-2009, 10:45 PM

Thus for now I think I'm resigned to considering forthcoming PC CableCard multi-tuners & MCE for a 4+ tuner system. But the cost implications of that considering that extenders really are needed at each TV in the house to accompany that solution are quite high, so perhaps I'll just have to stick to my 2 S3s for another couple of years.

If Tivo had offered a 4 tuner box, I still think I would have bought 2 and then also bought a regular 2 tuner box for the third Tivo.

Or you could do like I am. Leave the Tivos where they are and just add a 360 in the main room. I will probably leave my Win 7 DVR at my desk unless I end up building a HTPC to sit at my second TV. Also don't forget come CES someone may announce new extenders. Also with new devices like WDTV2 they might support WTV or DVR-MS files.

aaronwt

10-14-2009, 08:41 AM

I did, and he is perfectly correct in technical detail, as he almost always is. I am skeptical of TiVo's being able to (or wanting to) come in at those price points, however. Heck, look at the S3, which debuted at $700, or the THD XL, which came in about the same price. Of course, he might well be speaking of the price when the platform matures, while I am thinking more of the price shortly after introduction. That, or maybe my estimate is near the maximum while his is near the minimum in the crystal ball. No matter what, the 4 tuner solution will increase the cost of the platform, even if only by $50. By the same token, $50 is more than I want to pay for 2 additional tuners, especially if they only have the one model, so I am potentially forced to pay $150 for six additional tuners. I REALLY don't need 12 tuners.

Truly I don't.

The cost difference would be alot more than $50. It would need to be at least several hundred dollars. Just look at the price difference between a 160GB drive and a 1TB drive. The actual cost difference of the drive is minimal.

With only a $50 cost difference it would make no sense to have a 4 tuner and a 2 tuner version.

aaronwt

10-14-2009, 08:43 AM

I agree. This is why I would much rather have multiple 4 tuner boxes than multiple 2 tuner boxes though. :) I duplicate all my season passes across all my Tivos but doing that while eliminating micromanaging season pass priority is my ultimate goal.

I know someone else mentioned it earlier and I could see Tivo doing a Tivo HD XL where it included the 4 tuners and 1-2 TB drive while still offering the Tivo HD at a lower price point. I am not advocating dropping a 2 tuner option but I definitely think they need to expand the tuner options.

No one needs 12 tuners, doesn't mean some of us don't want 12 tuners lol. I know what you are saying though. This was why I believe he also proposed they could do a Moca device to stream content from the 4 tuner box. This way you could buy as many tuners as you want but also extenders.

Either way CES will be pretty telling for me. New Tivo or new Win 7 DVR.

I can think of several people right now that needs 12 tuners. People I know with 6, 7 and 8 people in their family. All watching different things at different times.

ZeoTiVo

10-14-2009, 08:52 AM

I can think of several people right now that needs 12 tuners. People I know with 6, 7 and 8 people in their family. All watching different things at different times.

That is my family and we have multiple TiVo DVRs that cover that situation. This of course does not have to be one solution for all people but a group think is happening here that the only way to record multiple shows at once is on one box. That is one approach but the multiple TiVo DVRs works great for us and a lot we record analog so that MRV is alos an easy option to watch anything on any TV.

If TiVo added in streaming, over any mechanism, than even copy restrictions would not effect the ability to watch a show on any TV.

lew

10-14-2009, 10:22 AM

You may want to read BKDTV's post (http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?p=7539814#post7539814). If he is correct, which is more often than not from what I have seen, than it wouldn't cost that much more to add 2 more tuners.

While I won't be dropping Tivo, I do plan on buying a Ceton card once it comes out which is expected to run 300-600 for a 4 tuner card.

It sounds like a 4 tuner tivo would need 2 SDV dongles. It's not known if cable companies would supply 2 adapters for one DVR. That's even assuming the board supports 4 USB devices, assuming tivo wants one USB port available for an external wireless adapter. I guess they could sell a wireless bridge to accommodate those customers. MoCa is great for most people but at least some customers may have an issue with some amps or splitters buried in an attic.

Tivo would need to either increase subscription fees for the 4 tuner model, make less money or would have to increase the cost of the unit to offset reduced subscription revenue.

I agree with posters in this thread, I think tivo is likely to go with a lower cost 2 tuner unit, at least until competition changes.

I can see cable companies going with a 4 tuner model and streaming to regular STB.

lrhorer

10-14-2009, 08:40 PM

I can think of several people right now that needs 12 tuners. People I know with 6, 7 and 8 people in their family. All watching different things at different times.
"Different times" implies there may not be any conflict. It is only if they want to record 12 different things at the same time that 12 tuners might possibly be used, and finding even one occurrence - ever - of a 12-way irresolute conflict is just about impossible. It requires there be 12 programs on at the same time, not one of which is shown more than once in the two week period. It's possible, of course, but exceedingly unlikely, and definitely not going to be a common occurrence. The number of people in the family isn't very relevant, since one person might well want to watch the same 12 programs that the 8 people do. It is perhaps somewhat more likely, but the effects are only weakly linked, at best.

I'm certainly not going to worry about the one chance in a million there might be seven shows on at the same time I want to record, without a single one of them being shown again. If it happens, it happens. Boo hoo.

lrhorer

10-14-2009, 08:54 PM

That is my family and we have multiple TiVo DVRs that cover that situation. This of course does not have to be one solution for all people but a group think is happening here that the only way to record multiple shows at once is on one box. That is one approach but the multiple TiVo DVRs works great for us and a lot we record analog so that MRV is alos an easy option to watch anything on any TV.

If TiVo added in streaming, over any mechanism, than even copy restrictions would not effect the ability to watch a show on any TV.
Precisely. A significant fraction of the people who want more than 2 tuners also want more than 1 TiVo, so the multi-tuner solution is not all that attractive to them. For the rest, the questions are, "Just how much are they willing to pay for the feature", and "is it worth it for TiVo to come out with a multiple tuner model given the answer to the previous question?"

That's another reason why I would much prefer a Gigabit Ethernet solution (with the CPU stones to handle it) before I would another pair of tuners. With HD content, cooperative scheduling and widespread streaming are going to beg for much more than 100Mbps and the current CPU capabilities. Note I have no problem whatsoever downloading greater than real-time 1080i video to all three TiVos and a couple of PCs simultaneously from my video server.

DrewTivo

10-14-2009, 09:22 PM

The problem with coordinating Tivos is what happens when one Tivo can't connect to another which sometimes happens now. If you can't depend on it, this would put us back in the situation we are in now where you would still need to manage multiple season passes.

True, but if you schedule things in advance the problem should happen only if they can't connect for a long time.

Plus, if the software were well written, you'd only need the "other" tivo if you had three things scheduled, which does happen but not as often as one or two--it would really be a backup to cover you.

innocentfreak

10-14-2009, 09:32 PM

True, but if you schedule things in advance the problem should happen only if they can't connect for a long time.

Plus, if the software were well written, you'd only need the "other" tivo if you had three things scheduled, which does happen but not as often as one or two--it would really be a backup to cover you.

The problem with this is how often then do you have the Tivos connect? When is the last time I can add a show at the last minute especially if their is a schedule change at the last minute? If I add a show on one Tivo does it take priority over a shared recording? This is of course all stuff Tivo would have to decide and more and of course not everyone is going to agree with the logic.

For people like me, I am normally recording 4 shows if not 5 at primetime that are run once which is ultimately the time of the most conflicts so I would have the issue every night. As someone else said around 80% of the time the Tivo isn't doing anything but for that 20% I am recording 100% on all tuners.

aaronwt

10-14-2009, 11:49 PM

"Different times" implies there may not be any conflict. It is only if they want to record 12 different things at the same time that 12 tuners might possibly be used, and finding even one occurrence - ever - of a 12-way irresolute conflict is just about impossible. It requires there be 12 programs on at the same time, not one of which is shown more than once in the two week period. It's possible, of course, but exceedingly unlikely, and definitely not going to be a common occurrence. The number of people in the family isn't very relevant, since one person might well want to watch the same 12 programs that the 8 people do. It is perhaps somewhat more likely, but the effects are only weakly linked, at best.

I'm certainly not going to worry about the one chance in a million there might be seven shows on at the same time I want to record, without a single one of them being shown again. If it happens, it happens. Boo hoo.

Many times I've had seven or more shows on recording concurrently. It isn't the norm but it happens several times in a month during the normal TV season. Now 10 or 12 doesn't happen very often for me but it has occurred a few times for me.

rtoledo

10-15-2009, 04:04 AM

I'm sure, but the real question is, "How much extra would you be willing to pay for a 4 tuner box?" For me, the answer is, "Not much".

For TiVo, the question is, "How many more boxes can we sell if we add two tuners after raising the price to cover the additional expense?" If the answer is, "Zero or a negative number", then Tivo needs to figure out of there is a price premium which will cover the lost revenue from fewer people buying the unit.

AH NO LOL since I'm the OP the question remains "will TIVO come out with a 4 tuner" or will I have to use the CETON card. you see once upon a time I had time to burn and actually thought that it was fun to roll your own.

no more I just want a box like a tivo that I tell record these 20 shows and if 4 of them are on at the same time record them.

every one in here has hijacked the thread to does fios work, does the hard drive handle this :) not really meaning to sound rude, but to those of us that are junkies and do not have time and are tired of fighting with the wife over what to delete cause the drive is full will be willing to pay for such a box.(If you look at my post time i watch my shows now while the family watches during "normal" time and stuff fills up fast)

this thread is not for the cheap guys like a friend who spends all his time downloading shows from newsgroups cause he is too cheap to pay for the cable or small dish ;)

so please excuse me for being rude I just want speculation on if they will be updating a old HD box and maybe making something that can do 4 shows. I have enough faith in the execs at TIVO to not price themselves out of the market.

again sorry :D

rtoledo

10-15-2009, 04:10 AM

It sounds like a 4 tuner tivo would need 2 SDV dongles. It's not known if cable companies would supply 2 adapters for one DVR. That's even assuming the board supports 4 USB devices, assuming tivo wants one USB port available for an external wireless adapter. I guess they could sell a wireless bridge to accommodate those customers. MoCa is great for most people but at least some customers may have an issue with some amps or splitters buried in an attic.

Tivo would need to either increase subscription fees for the 4 tuner model, make less money or would have to increase the cost of the unit to offset reduced subscription revenue.

I agree with posters in this thread, I think tivo is likely to go with a lower cost 2 tuner unit, at least until competition changes.

I can see cable companies going with a 4 tuner model and streaming to regular STB.

well they also have to cosider the VP of Ceton has said it will be in the 300 to 600 ballpark for their card, now I'm talking out of my ear when it comes to MCE since I have not used it since my last AIW ati card with win 2005, but if it can work of some schedule and record 4 shows, Tivo will have some serious competition.

This is why I came in here and ask, since I do not own any Tivo's at this time and there are lots of people that have a need for 4 at once it would be a no brainer for the to consider it.

Either way I will buy a 4@once solution. there is very little I actually burn to DVD. :D

rtoledo

10-15-2009, 04:25 AM

Precisely. A significant fraction of the people who want more than 2 tuners also want more than 1 TiVo, so the multi-tuner solution is not all that attractive to them. For the rest, the questions are, "Just how much are they willing to pay for the feature", and "is it worth it for TiVo to come out with a multiple tuner model given the answer to the previous question?"

That's another reason why I would much prefer a Gigabit Ethernet solution (with the CPU stones to handle it) before I would another pair of tuners. With HD content, cooperative scheduling and widespread streaming are going to beg for much more than 100Mbps and the current CPU capabilities. Note I have no problem whatsoever downloading greater than real-time 1080i video to all three TiVos and a couple of PCs simultaneously from my video server.

Sorry but I disagree. I like the "cleaness" of one box. the cleaness of one Tivo subscription. I can't speculate on what other people want, as for gigabit and more "stones" as in computing WHY does it have to be one or the other? if they upgrade the box it will be GIG and more powerfull, if they have any insight it will be MOCA compliant too, it is the wave of the future.

I sure wish I had had your insight when I laughed at Google stock at 80.00 when it came out for what a search engine, and IBM was going for 47 at the time IIRC. sure wish I could read what other people wanted

orangeboy

10-15-2009, 07:46 AM

this thread is not for the cheap guys like a friend who spends all his time downloading shows from newsgroups cause he is too cheap to pay for the cable or small dish ;)

Wow do I REALLY resemble that comment! :up:

ZeoTiVo

10-15-2009, 08:12 AM

so please excuse me for being rude I just want speculation on if they will be updating a old HD box and maybe making something that can do 4 shows.

then your answer is a simple NO.

I would point out that others were indeed speculating on the viability of a 4 tuner HD TiVo in various ways which was exactly to your point.

rtoledo

10-16-2009, 02:32 AM

Wow do I REALLY resemble that comment! :up:

LOL sorry LOL but I bet you are not 50 have a wife and still live at and have lived at home the hole time!!!! :eek:

but he's still a friend (who only calls when he needs a favor) :D

rtoledo

10-16-2009, 02:44 AM

then your answer is a simple NO.

I would point out that others were indeed speculating on the viability of a 4 tuner HD TiVo in various ways which was exactly to your point.

speculating yes , but man are they all over the place. there are literally MILLIONS of people like me who do not own a tivo, so this would be my first, AMOF I'm still considering getting the HD for 199.00 getting the lifetime and just removing the Verizon box once and for all.

but now that this card is coming I will wait, but I would still buy a TIVO owith 4 tuners even after I buy the Ceton card, simply because TIVO=quality compared to what Microsoft does with Media Center Edition, and there lies my fears and my hate of Vista and even 7 is unspeakable.

as for other speculating, they seem to be fixed on their own problem instead of the potential. most seem scared to move up to a new box because they have a lifetime sub invested in the box, or are trying to rationalize why they bought multiple boxes to do what this future box would do in one box.

I don't mean to sound like I'm putting anyone down, my last comment is, what ever happens , Jeremy has pointed out that he can not comment on what companies they are talking to about using their chipset in THEIR boxes.

so competition is coming, like it or not. it's like GM I have bought many vehicles from them, but when you went up to them and asked hey how can i get that pick up with a 6 cylinder they would laugh you out saying that's the way we spec them. they won't sell cause we don't make enough unless they are loaded with features.

well a lot of people have gone somewhere else to buy what they WANT not what gm is selling them :(

4 tuners and terabytes of harddrive are now going to be the NORM and yes it's essential for TV junkies and multiple family members, and I see a single central DVR for the whole house IDEAL

lew

10-16-2009, 08:24 AM

as for other speculating, they seem to be fixed on their own problem instead of the potential. most seem scared to move up to a new box because they have a lifetime sub invested in the box, or are trying to rationalize why they bought multiple boxes to do what this future box would do in one box.

Not really a fair or accurate summary of the posts. You're disappointed more people don't agree with you. I don't know why you're fixated with a 4 tuner model. The M card can decrypt 6 channels.

You asked for opinions. I think tivo is likely to use the cost savings generated by dropping analog support to lower the price and not to add tuners. I think a lower price will sell more tivo's then extra tuners.

Other posters told you adding tuners doesn't make sense unless tivo also comes up with a way to view your shows on multiple TV sets. MRV would have to be changed to a method that will work with CCI flagged shows. Tivo would have to either sell an extender or allow use of third party extenders.

Tivo would have to price subscription fees differently. Charge extra for 4 tuner units. or Charge a subscription fee for the extenders. or Hope that 4 tuner sales are to customers that otherwise wouldn't buy a tivo and not to customers that otherwise would buy 2 units. or Sell a 4 tuner at a high enough price point to compensate.

You asked if tivo will introdcue a 4 tuner unit soon. I'd be surprised if such a unit comes out in the next 12 months.

wkearney99

10-16-2009, 09:01 AM

Lew's got it exactly right with his rejection of your gross oversimplification.

You want a single box that will record more than two shows. Not an unreasonable notion, but not one everyone agrees about being necessary. Don't try and prop up an entirely lame argument by throwing accusations about anyone else's "fears". That's just pathetic.

What sucks about the current boxes can be solved, some more simply than others.

One being a lack of MRV for some CCI flagged programming. From a technical standpoint this would be trivial for Tivo to eliminate as an issue. But not when the suppliers of the content continue to push it.

The second, and probably most annoying, is the lack of portability of recording schedules between units. Now that it's possible to remotely program a Tivo from the web and handheld devices it's becoming less of a hassle. I just used the Blackberry app to program two season passes on our other Tivo. The SP were for two programs that air via broadcast networks and would routinely conflict with others. Now I've got them set to run on the other unit and can use MRV to watch them as necessary. Worked great. I'd venture a guess that since it's now possible to do this that it might not be too much longer before there's some options for doing it from one Tivo to another.

From time to time Tivo has offered lifetime upgrade options. They should do this more often. I'd buy one right now if I had the option to upgrade at least one of my other units. Meanwhile it's just annoying to have and then not-have the option.

Would I buy a 4 tuner unit? Possibly. But purchase price would definitely be a factor. I've got TivoHDs that I upgrade with my own 1TB drives. This I did at a much lesser cost than the TivoHD-XL. I'd worry that a 4 tuner unit would also come with a similarly over-priced drive capacity. Yeah, it's probably penny-wise, pound-foolish to approach it that way. But household expenditures are like that, especially luxuries like a DVR.

I'm fortunate to be using a service that doesn't require work-arounds like SDV so I can't really address that.

I suppose my greater concern about more tuners in one box would be it's impact on that box's performance. Just recording the streams to disc doesn't involve much more effort. But juggling the recording schedules might be a problem. I dislike the amount of time it takes to do any serious rearranging of scheduled recordings. The dreaded 'please wait' while moving season passes really SUCKS. If they managed to make it a LOT faster with two tuners then I'd have a lot more hope for how four tuners might work. But I really can't see putting up with any longer delays than are already happening.

If I had to chose one thing it'd be the ability to program and move recording schedules between Tivo devices.

A close second would be the ability to download and view from netflix instead of that utterly horrible streaming interface. I love the tivo playback and buffer controls and will not accept the lame streaming client.

ZeoTiVo

10-16-2009, 09:25 AM

but now that this card is coming I will wait, but I would still buy a TIVO owith 4 tuners even after I buy the Ceton card, simply because TIVO=quality compared to what Microsoft does with Media Center Edition, and there lies my fears and my hate of Vista and even 7 is unspeakable.

so you find Microsoft unspeakable but will buy a just introduced card and spend a good bit of bucks and time on it versus 2 TiVo HD DVRs, total of 1,300 retail with no other fees, simply becasue you would have to manage 2 recording schedules versus 1??? Have fun with that...

emp

10-16-2009, 09:56 AM

That has been requested many times, but I would be quite happy with merely a little easier conflict handling. Instead of merely a choice of losing one or the other of two programs in a three-way conflict, we should be presented with the option to drop any one of the three. What's more, the TiVo should automatically search for and display additional showings of any one of the three shows in conflict, and allow the user to select a showing of any one of the three at a different time or channel.
+1. That is how it should be done. The current conflict handling is surprisingly poor.

x2, I couldn't agree more. I wish they would choose a lower priority if the higher priority would be recorded a little later anyway. The algorithm to do this even one level could be to CPU intensive.
In addition to that, I wish when you see the "will record/wont record" list when setting up a season pass, that each one of those items would be selectable and you could override which programs would record and be able to see what episode of the show it is, to see if you care about it.

jjcool

10-16-2009, 11:00 AM

I too need 4 tuners to capture all the programs I want to watch. There are a couple of nights each week when at least 3 programs conflict at say, 8pm, that I'd like to record. A 4 tuner TiVo would at least let me record 2 shows while I watch the 3rd! :D

What is stopping you from now recording two programs and watching the third live? I do that all the time with my Tivo HD.

classicsat

10-16-2009, 12:19 PM

You asked for opinions. I think tivo is likely to use the cost savings generated by dropping analog support to lower the price and not to add tuners. I think a lower price will sell more tivo's then extra tuners.

Very plausible IMHO. With analog broadcasting all but gone, and a lot of cable providers dropping analog channels, analot tuners/encoders are just a waste.

Other posters told you adding tuners doesn't make sense unless tivo also comes up with a way to view your shows on multiple TV sets. MRV would have to be changed to a method that will work with CCI flagged shows. Tivo would have to either sell an extender or allow use of third party extenders.

I find the extender notion less plausible, from a business standpoint. See below.

Tivo would have to price subscription fees differently. Charge extra for 4 tuner units. or Charge a subscription fee for the extenders. or Hope that 4 tuner sales are to customers that otherwise wouldn't buy a tivo and not to customers that otherwise would buy 2 units. or Sell a 4 tuner at a high enough price point to compensate.

I don't think they want to do that. They would have service or not for the DVR, with the current service rates that apply to all TiVo DVRs. Practically, a quad tuner will cost no more to service than a single or dual tuner.

They might, at most, have a rate for a TiVo extender, since it would not record nor have guide data of its own. The extra costs of the quad tuner will be built into the sale price.

You asked if tivo will introdcue a 4 tuner unit soon. I'd be surprised if such a unit comes out in the next 12 months.

I'd be surprised if there is a quad tuner unit at all. After the Tru2Way dual tuner, my belief is that they are going to be concentrating on provider integration, rather than consumer hardware.

Videodrome

10-16-2009, 01:59 PM

TriBruin

10-16-2009, 02:09 PM

But Tivo needs to get rid of subscription model.

Never going to happen. Tivo will go out of business first (or likely bought out for their IP) before they go away from a subscription mode. The can only make money three ways:

1) High cost for the hardware. Already people are turned off by the upfront cost compared to a Cable DVR. You would drive most of the other away.

2) Significantly more advertising - You can already see the backlash Tivo gets now for the amount of advertising. Try introducing non-FF commercials in to the mix.

3) Subscription model - Still the best option for Tivo.

ZeoTiVo

10-16-2009, 04:06 PM

I think Tivo needs 4 tuners , just to stay competitive. Even if one of those is just a float tuner for live tv, with no functions. I would have no issue paying $200 more for a 4 tuner tivo. But Tivo needs to get rid of subscription model.

competitive with what other 4 tuner DVR you buy on the shelf and then plug in and start using?

Well sure the monthly bill part hurts sales but it is kind of the business model to get money coming in each month.

Why not start your own DVR company...........

lew

10-16-2009, 04:26 PM

I think Tivo needs 4 tuners , just to stay competitive. Even if one of those is just a float tuner for live tv, with no functions. I would have no issue paying $200 more for a 4 tuner tivo. But Tivo needs to get rid of subscription model.

LS currently costs $400. You want a 4 tuner tivo, including service, to cost $200 less then the current cost of a 2 tuner model, with service.

bkdtv

10-16-2009, 04:59 PM

Never going to happen. Tivo will go out of business first (or likely bought out for their IP) before they go away from a subscription mode. The can only make money three ways:

1) High cost for the hardware. Already people are turned off by the upfront cost compared to a Cable DVR. You would drive most of the other away.Videodrome is right that the subscription requirement is seen as an albatross by much of the public. Mention a subscription requirement for a CE product and you immediately lose 75% to 90% of the market.

If some form of "free" TiVo Basic service isn't economically viable, then TiVo must do something else to interest the bulk of consumers that resist "subscription" products. Many have suggested over the years that TiVo eliminate all references to "lifetime subscription" and give the service a name with less baggage.

TivoHD -- $199 product with monthly/yearly fees (or upgrade to TiVo Gold)
TivoHD Gold -- $499 product with no subscription fees (TiVo.com only)

The problem is that most non-TiVo users won't pay $199 -- much less $499 -- for a product unless it offers compelling advantages over their cable DVR. The "feature" most consumers want is feeless operation, but that's not seen as something TiVo offers. TiVo has become synonymous with fees and that kills demand for their product.

Beyond feeless operation, the most compelling advantages -- and those one can actually market-- are hardware features such as storage capacity, storage expansion, extra tuners, 1080p60 output, whole-house networking, and remote viewing. The UI may be TiVo's biggest advantage, but that is almost impossible to market; the UI may keep someone paying the fees, but it's the hardware "features" that convince them to buy the product in the first place.

The obvious problem with hardware "features" is that they add cost. Most consumers won't pay more than $200-$250 for a DVR with fees, regardless of the hardware "features" it offers. People want a significant DVR upgrade for $200 and that may not be feasible.

donnoh

10-16-2009, 05:45 PM

Videodrome is right that the subscription requirement is seen as an albatross by much of the public. Mention a subscription requirement for a CE product and you immediately lose 75% to 90% of the market.

If some form of "free" TiVo Basic service isn't economically viable, then TiVo must do something else to interest the bulk of consumers that resist "subscription" products. Many have suggested over the years that TiVo eliminate all references to "lifetime subscription" and give the service a name with less baggage.

TivoHD -- $199 product with monthly/yearly fees (or upgrade to TiVo Gold)
TivoHD Gold -- $499 product with no subscription fees (TiVo.com only)

The problem is that most non-TiVo users won't pay $199 -- much less $499 -- for a product unless it offers compelling advantages over their cable DVR. The "feature" most consumers want is feeless operation, but that's not seen as something TiVo offers. TiVo has become synonymous with fees and that kills demand for their product.

Beyond feeless operation, the most compelling advantages -- and those one can actually market-- are hardware benefits such as storage capacity, storage expansion, extra tuners, 1080p60 output, whole-house networking, and remote viewing. The UI may be TiVo's biggest advantage, but that is almost impossible to market; the UI may keep someone paying the fees, but it's the hardware "features" that convince them to buy the product in the first place.

The obvious problem with hardware "features" is that they add cost. Most consumers won't pay more than $200-$250 for a DVR with fees, regardless of the hardware "features" it offers. People want a significant DVR upgrade for $200 and that may not be feasible.

The way I look at it is the lease verses buy dilema. I've always bought my cars, but there are a lot of people that lease cars and swap them every few years for new ones, I keep cars until the wheels fall off. The same way with DVRs, rent the cable company's DVR for $20 a month or buy a Tivo. I have the money to buy, some people prefer the option to rent forever because they're too stupid to save money.

spocko

10-16-2009, 06:21 PM

The problem is that most non-TiVo users won't pay $199 -- much less $499 -- for a product unless it offers compelling advantages over their cable DVR. The "feature" most consumers want is feeless operation, but that's not seen as something TiVo offers. TiVo has become synonymous with fees and that kills demand for their product.

I don't dispute that perception, but the reality is that cable DVRs are by no means "feeless" either. There is generally a hefty monthly fee for the privilege of using a cable DVR, usually more than the cost of a Tivo monthly fee. I bought a Tivo not only because it is better than a cable DVR, but also because long term it will cost me less than a cable DVR. I think Tivo would be wise to market that advantage more clearly.

One clear advantage that cable DVR has is low acquisition cost (offset by higher usage cost). For people who like to "buy now, pay later", the cable DVR is more appealing. Tivo could overcome this to some degree by marketing the potential long term cost savings of their product.

The other key advantage that cable DVR has is low hassle acquisition/ownership. All the user has to do is sign up for service and the cable co makes it happen. If the box dies, the cable co replaces it with little hassle. For Tivo, things aren't so simple. The user has to purchase a Tivo box and then work with an often reluctant cable co to get it setup with cablecard. If the box dies after warranty, the user is responsible for repair/replacement. There is little that Tivo can do to change this. Their only option is to make sure that Tivo is sufficiently different and better than cable DVR, so that the added acquisition/ownership hassle is worthwhile.

Given these market conditions, Tivo has a difficult balancing act. As bkdtv noted, they need a low cost box to avoid up-front sticker shock, but they also need features that make their box different and better compared to the competition.

Personally I can't see >2 tuners being standard in all Tivo S4 due to cost sensitivity, but I definitely think >2 could make sense in a "premium" model like the XL. Having a box with 4 tuners in their product lineup would give Tivo a clear feature advantage that they could market, even if not all Tivo models have that feature.

nrc

10-16-2009, 08:00 PM

Videodrome is right that the subscription requirement is seen as an albatross by much of the public. Mention a subscription requirement for a CE product and you immediately lose 75% to 90% of the market.

I think it's the combination of an up-front cost and a monthly fee that is the killer. If TiVo could get to the point where they can have a box that is $99 with a two year commitment and free with a three year commitment I think they'd get a closer look from a lot of people.

But spocko is right convenience is the other major factor. The average consumer doesn't want to have to think about whether this gadget is going to work right with their cable system.

In the big scheme of things holding TiVo back, four tuners isn't even on the chart at this point.

DCIFRTHS

10-16-2009, 08:13 PM

The way I look at it is the lease verses buy dilema. I've always bought my cars, but there are a lot of people that lease cars and swap them every few years for new ones, I keep cars until the wheels fall off. The same way with DVRs, rent the cable company's DVR for $20 a month or buy a Tivo. I have the money to buy, some people prefer the option to rent forever because they're too stupid to save money.

...or maybe they just prefer to get a new car every few years, and are willing to pay extra for that luxury. Of course there are other reasons people lease as opposed to owning, but "stupid" doesn't apply to all those that lease :)

mattack

10-16-2009, 09:36 PM

What is stopping you from now recording two programs and watching the third live? I do that all the time with my Tivo HD.

No you don't. Maybe you do it with your Tivo HD and the tuner built in your TV.. or your Tivo HD and a tuner built into a separate cable box.. but since the Tivo HD has only two tuning units, you can't watch a third LIVE show while recording 2 others because there is no tuner to do so.

Videodrome

10-17-2009, 02:46 PM

competitive with what other 4 tuner DVR you buy on the shelf and then plug in and start using?

Well sure the monthly bill part hurts sales but it is kind of the business model to get money coming in each month.

Why not start your own DVR company...........

Have you heard of the Verizon Fios, and Cable battle ? One does it, then the next must. Once this 4 tuner pc usable tuner is available , pc based dvr is going to be more available. Anyone with a win7 pc can do, and guess what, most people already have a win7 compatible pc. So why buy a tivo, when i just use a old pc i already have, or buy a micro pc ( $400) , and use that. What no advertising ? too !

MichaelK

10-17-2009, 06:24 PM

The way I look at it is the lease verses buy dilema. I've always bought my cars, but there are a lot of people that lease cars and swap them every few years for new ones, I keep cars until the wheels fall off. The same way with DVRs, rent the cable company's DVR for $20 a month or buy a Tivo. I have the money to buy, some people prefer the option to rent forever because they're too stupid to save money.

there's plenty of reasons besides "stupid" to lease vs buy.

Some dont have the up front cash.

Some would like the latest and greatest.

Some dont like being commiitted to the same DVR, Car, woman, etc for years on end.

there's no reason to insult people that have different opinions than yourself. (And I prefer to buy myself...)

MichaelK

10-17-2009, 06:31 PM

Have you heard of the Verizon Fios, and Cable battle ? One does it, then the next must. Once this 4 tuner pc usable tuner is available , pc based dvr is going to be more available. Anyone with a win7 pc can do, and guess what, most people already have a win7 compatible pc. So why buy a tivo, when i just use a old pc i already have, or buy a micro pc ( $400) , and use that. What no advertising ? too !

microsoft has hundreds of millions of media center pc's sold already (vista home premium and ultimate came with it for built right in)- and there's nothing stopping people today from buying more than one tuner card and slapping it in a pc- many here have. So why do you think that putting 4 tuners on a card as opposed to two is going to be the magic that suddenly makes windows a major competitor?

wkearney99

10-17-2009, 06:56 PM

Have you ever tried adding tuners to a Media Center PC? Calling it a clusterf*ck would be a kind assessment. They often just don't work or flake out for unknown reasons. I know, I've tried and it's horrible. The last thing you want out of an appliance is unpredictability. Meanwhile the Tivo cranks right along reliably right out of the box.

I get quite a chuckle reading people gushing about the "potential" of the ceton cards. It's almost as pathetic as the ones convinced there'd ever be a DirecTV tuner for PCs. Hold your breath waiting for it, the blue shade you'll turn will be pretty... for a while.

If you've got a recent TV you can watch any of the unencrypted cable channels right on the TV. Just split the RF coax to feed both the Tivo and the TV. Some TVs (like my plasma) support adding a cablecard, which would let you tune all the rest. You'd have to subscribe to another cablecard, of course. But with if the 3rd program isn't encrypted then just use the TV's own tuner, works great.

ZeoTiVo

10-17-2009, 07:02 PM

Anyone with a win7 pc can do, and guess what, most people already have a win7 compatible pc. So why buy a tivo, when i just use a old pc i already have, or buy a micro pc ( $400) , and use that. What no advertising ? too !

I should bookmark this so I can come back in a few years and have another good chuckle.

RoyK

10-17-2009, 07:27 PM

I should bookmark this so I can come back in a few years and have another good chuckle.

Do that. I popped a dual tuner Hauppage card in my Win7 (RC) PC and it detected it fine and it works BEAUTIFULLY!

Was a simple matter to map the guide to the clear QAM channels too.

M$ vastly improved Media Center with Win7.

MichaelK

10-17-2009, 08:35 PM

Do that. I popped a dual tuner Hauppage card in my Win7 (RC) PC and it detected it fine and it works BEAUTIFULLY!

Was a simple matter to map the guide to the clear QAM channels too.

M$ vastly improved Media Center with Win7.

that's good to hear that the reality is it's now simple. Now if Microsoft can get past the perception that MS sucks, is not stable, is a pain in the ass, and just plain can't be trusted and maybe they can really get into the market and push some innovation.

If Apple ever decided to add tuners to their Apple TV stuff than maybe people would flock.

Videodrome

10-17-2009, 10:38 PM

microsoft has hundreds of millions of media center pc's sold already (vista home premium and ultimate came with it for built right in)- and there's nothing stopping people today from buying more than one tuner card and slapping it in a pc- many here have. So why do you think that putting 4 tuners on a card as opposed to two is going to be the magic that suddenly makes windows a major competitor?

Because win7 media center solves alot of issues, with cablecard. Single card anything is useless, but 4 makes it usable, add extenders. Home video server. There is a large jump from vista to win7 media center. The multi-card tuner just solves alot of cost issues, and technical issues. I plan to create one, just to see how it works out. Its just the cost of the tuner.

ZeoTiVo

10-18-2009, 02:55 AM

Do that. I popped a dual tuner Hauppage card in my Win7 (RC) PC and it detected it fine and it works BEAUTIFULLY!

Was a simple matter to map the guide to the clear QAM channels too.

M$ vastly improved Media Center with Win7.

all along in this thread I have not been talking about how easy or hard it is. Even at that you are not talking about the new cable card tuner cards and you are not interested in the SDV channels either (1 SDV dongle can not deal with 4 tuners) .

Anyhow my chuckle was over how just having cable card tuners available was going to somehow convince millions of folks to hook a PC up to their cable and TV. Lots of HTPC users will move to Win7 and cable card tuners, of that I have no doubt. It will however not suddenly bring in lots of extra users that had not used HTPC before.

The cable companies and thus TiVo will feel no 4 tuner competition anytime soon.

lrhorer

10-18-2009, 03:39 AM

Originally Posted by Irhoror
Oh, for crying out loud! Please, that is L-R-H-O-R-E-R, not Irhorer, and certainly not Irhoror.

Videodrome

10-18-2009, 08:16 AM

all along in this thread I have not been talking about how easy or hard it is. Even at that you are not talking about the new cable card tuner cards and you are not interested in the SDV channels either (1 SDV dongle can not deal with 4 tuners) .

Anyhow my chuckle was over how just having cable card tuners available was going to somehow convince millions of folks to hook a PC up to their cable and TV. Lots of HTPC users will move to Win7 and cable card tuners, of that I have no doubt. It will however not suddenly bring in lots of extra users that had not used HTPC before.

The cable companies and thus TiVo will feel no 4 tuner competition anytime soon.

Its not just tuners, it upfront cost, and thats the main point. Cost of tuner $400, cost of Tivo $1200. Which one is cheaper if you dont have a tivo already. There are pc alternatives that do better then Tivo, and the 4 tuner card just seals the deal.

lew

10-18-2009, 11:08 AM

Its not just tuners, it upfront cost, and thats the main point. Cost of tuner $400, cost of Tivo $1200. Which one is cheaper if you dont have a tivo already. There are pc alternatives that do better then Tivo, and the 4 tuner card just seals the deal.

You have to include the cost of a PC. Many people use netbooks and notebooks. Others use an older PC without two (sometimes even one) DVI/HDMI ports. Many people don't locate their PC next to their entertainment center. They're comparing a cable supplied PC wiith tivo and with purchasing a HTPC.

AFAIK you can't just spend $400 on a tuner card. Don't you have to purchase an upgrade to Windows 7?

orangeboy

10-18-2009, 11:57 AM

You have to include the cost of a PC. Many people use netbooks and notebooks. Others use an older PC without two (sometimes even one) DVI/HDMI ports. Many people don't locate their PC next to their entertainment center. They're comparing a cable supplied PC wiith tivo and with purchasing a HTPC.

AFAIK you can't just spend $400 on a tuner card. Don't you have to purchase an upgrade to Windows 7?

But then the numbers wouldn't add up to make a plausible argument. It's easier to make a point when you compare a single part ($400 tuner card) to the cost of the whole ($1200?! Tivo).

MichaelK

10-19-2009, 04:09 PM

Because win7 media center solves alot of issues, with cablecard. Single card anything is useless, but 4 makes it usable, add extenders. Home video server. There is a large jump from vista to win7 media center. The multi-card tuner just solves alot of cost issues, and technical issues. I plan to create one, just to see how it works out. Its just the cost of the tuner.

so you think the problem today is the number of cablecards needed and not the fact that cablecard is needed at all?

Personally I think the need to deal with cablecard (and potentially tuning adapters) is the problem for John Q public. But if you think having to do more than one cablecard is the issue maybe the ceton card on Win 7 will make a big difference. I guess time will tell.

MichaelK

10-19-2009, 04:26 PM

moyekj

10-19-2009, 04:58 PM

You think tivo's cost 1200? I'll sell you one for 1,000 including lifetime :) I think he's considering that to get 4 tuners with TiVo and no monthly fees you have to buy 2 units + lifetime on each. So lifetime alone is $300+400=700 and then maybe around another $500 or so for 2x THD hardware + hard drive upgrades which sounds fairly reasonable if not a tad low.
However at least with 2 TiVo units you probably don't need extenders of some sort which you would if going for a single 4 tuner HTPC solution, so HTPC still ends up being quite a bit more expensive and probably more hassle to get and keep everything working properly.
I will probably look into it once the 4 tuner cards are out more out of interest/hobby than trying to actually find a better solution to TiVo.

HD picture quality for Cox has degraded considerably the last few years so I'm now more interested in the Tivo/DirecTV hardware for potential of a big improvement in picture quality. The MCE solution still means you are stuck with cable and in some cases crappy picture quality that goes with it...

slowbiscuit

10-20-2009, 08:00 AM

aaronwt

10-20-2009, 08:31 AM

This has been hashed in other threads - assuming a $400 cost for a 4-tuner Cablecard PCI-X card (Ceton or whatever), it is reasonable to assume spending around $400 for an HTPC plus another $200 for an Xbox360 as an extender. Even cheap PCs nowadays have plenty of horsepower to drive HD at any res (short of h.264 1080p, which is irrelevant for TV recordings).
So, total cost for a 4-tuner setup for 2 TVs = $1000. Want another TV? $200 (or less, Xboxes can be had all day for less used). This is where Tivo loses, but as you said the tradeoff is that you have to fool with PCs.

Don't forget about power usage too. The TiVoi only uses around 35 watts. The PC will use more.
For me I used my PC all the time between 2001 and 2004 to record HD programming with my two HiPix cards. But once the HDTiVo came out in 2004 I rarely used the PCs anymore.
Now I suppose if I had never used a TiVo, this 4 or 6 tuner card would be appealing or if I wasn't invested in owning several tiVos. But I do own several TiVos so setting up a PC to do the recording does not give me any advanatges. Especailly since I'm getting more and more away from using my PCs for many things I used to and using STBs with internet access instead.

moyekj

10-20-2009, 10:12 AM

This has been hashed in other threads - assuming a $400 cost for a 4-tuner Cablecard PCI-X card (Ceton or whatever), it is reasonable to assume spending around $400 for an HTPC plus another $200 for an Xbox360 as an extender. Even cheap PCs nowadays have plenty of horsepower to drive HD at any res (short of h.264 1080p, which is irrelevant for TV recordings).
So, total cost for a 4-tuner setup for 2 TVs = $1000. Want another TV? $200 (or less, Xboxes can be had all day for less used). This is where Tivo loses, but as you said the tradeoff is that you have to fool with PCs. I think it would really have to be 2 extenders unless you want to locate a potentially noisy and ugly PC right next to one of the TVs (which would not fly in my case). So that means at least 2 extenders needed for my case. It would also seem silly and overkill to have 2 XBox 360s to use as extenders when I really have no interest in using them for their real intended use of gaming. Hopefully there will be some cheapish ($100 range) dedicated extenders made available instead.

slowbiscuit

10-20-2009, 12:53 PM

Don't forget about power usage too. The TiVoi only uses around 35 watts. The PC will use more.
For me I used my PC all the time between 2001 and 2004 to record HD programming with my two HiPix cards. But once the HDTiVo came out in 2004 I rarely used the PCs anymore.
Now I suppose if I had never used a TiVo, this 4 or 6 tuner card would be appealing or if I wasn't invested in owning several tiVos. But I do own several TiVos so setting up a PC to do the recording does not give me any advanatges. Especailly since I'm getting more and more away from using my PCs for many things I used to and using STBs with internet access instead.
Power usage is definitely going to be higher with both the PC and the Xboxes. And I agree, the appliance model is certainly easier to manage even if it is more expensive. But at $500 a pop (minimum) for Tivo, it's an expensive proposition once you get past a couple of TVs.

slowbiscuit

10-20-2009, 12:55 PM

I think it would really have to be 2 extenders unless you want to locate a potentially noisy and ugly PC right next to one of the TVs (which would not fly in my case). So that means at least 2 extenders needed for my case. It would also seem silly and overkill to have 2 XBox 360s to use as extenders when I really have no interest in using them for their real intended use of gaming. Hopefully there will be some cheapish ($100 range) dedicated extenders made available instead.
Agreed, and YMMV. I have a nice and quiet HTPC (with a good-looking Antec case) running Myth in my setup, and it could easily be hidden since you can put the remote control receiver (I use the Microsoft MCE USB one) anywhere.

Used Xbox360s are already in the $100-150 range for use as extenders, but I know what you mean. Only the latest models are reasonably quiet, and they are not the fastest to startup nor the cheapest to run power-wise.

MichaelK

10-20-2009, 07:19 PM

I actually have a tiny HTPC that I built with spare parts and a vista home premium lisence i had plus around 200 bucks last year- has a tiny motherboard that has HDMI HD output with network and everything else. I only added a blueray drive, a card reader, and a remote. Tossed it into a case maybe the same cubic volume as an S3.

So you can get a quite, purdy, cheap box (sans the tuners but I assume shortly the case people will catch up to that and the cards will only shrink over time). Built it mostly "becasue I can" and to see what's cooking. I've used it to watch a couple blueray's but it's just not worth the effort to me to deal with MS and the DVR. At first I thought I'd use it to stream from my windows home server but i find that pytivo to the S3's is fine so why bother with another box?

maybe I'm the oddball that doesn't fight the MS DVR but i really dont think so.

innocentfreak

10-20-2009, 07:24 PM

Power usage is definitely going to be higher with both the PC and the Xboxes. And I agree, the appliance model is certainly easier to manage even if it is more expensive. But at $500 a pop (minimum) for Tivo, it's an expensive proposition once you get past a couple of TVs.

Don't forget though with the PC and extenders they aren't on 24/7 like the Tivo is but usage will definitely vary. Without cable cards mine is only on 7:50-11:00 or for the occasional times I am watching something outside of the primetime slot.

Also as far as cases being ugly, there are tons out there to choose from depending on what you want to spend or you can always do like I do and have the computer in a central location while using the 360 to watch everything.

Some samples of cases
http://www.3rsys.com/english/products/case_middle.asp

ZeoTiVo

10-20-2009, 08:16 PM

it is reasonable to assume spending around $400 for an HTPC

not if you want it to be powerful enough to record 4 HD streams while playing back on extenders and have the hard drive space to store all that plus be quiet yet stay cool and be something that is not an eyesore.

aaronwt

10-20-2009, 11:48 PM

A small case is expensive but sub $100 CPUs are more than powerful enough to handle recording 4 HD streams and playing back on extenders.
And 2TB hard drives are now down to around $160. But I guess unless you use spare parts it's certainly going to cost a fair amount to set one up from scratch with the case, hard drive and tuners being the bulk of the cost. Although the case should include a motherboard with everything you need except the memory, drives and tuners.

slowbiscuit

10-21-2009, 08:57 AM

not if you want it to be powerful enough to record 4 HD streams while playing back on extenders and have the hard drive space to store all that plus be quiet yet stay cool and be something that is not an eyesore.
You really have no idea what you're talking about, and haven't priced PCs lately. You can buy a $300 PC with Win7 Home Premium (and MC) from any office supply store that can do what you said, then add a TB drive to it. Yes, they are quiet, and if you don't like the looks (as I said above and you conveniently choose to ignore), you can hide the PC.

Stop being blinded by Tivo and face the facts that an HTPC setup with the new tuners, *for certain users*, will be a cheaper deal than a multi-room Tivo setup, with way more capabilities. Yes, there are tradeoffs, but I guarantee you that it will be cheaper.

lew

10-21-2009, 09:55 AM

We haven't even hit the Win7 release date, although recently purchased PCs get a free upgrade.

My guess is the PC will cost closer to $500-$600, assuming you're going with an energy efficient model, wireless keyboard etc and at least a 1T hard drive. Add the cost of the tuner card and most of your savings evaporate.

A fair comparison will be to price the HTPC, with the tuner cards included, from a vendor like Dell.

Prior to the PC companies owned (expensive) dedicated word processors from companies like Wang. PCs replaced that market.

Prior to the PC we had dedicated game consoles such as the Atari. PCs haven't replaced dedicated gaming units.

JMO but cable and satellite supplied DVRs will continue to be the big competition for tivo.

The OP askes if tivo will have a 4 tuner model "soon".

You really have no idea what you're talking about, and haven't priced PCs lately. You can buy a $300 PC with Win7 Home Premium (and MC) from any office supply store that can do what you said, then add a TB drive to it. Yes, they are quiet, and if you don't like the looks (as I said above and you conveniently choose to ignore), you can hide the PC.

Stop being blinded by Tivo and face the facts that an HTPC setup with the new tuners, *for certain users*, will be a cheaper deal than a multi-room Tivo setup, with way more capabilities. Yes, there are tradeoffs, but I guarantee you that it will be cheaper.

RoyK

10-21-2009, 10:04 AM

not if you want it to be powerful enough to record 4 HD streams while playing back on extenders and have the hard drive space to store all that plus be quiet yet stay cool and be something that is not an eyesore.

FYI - The one I built - which is by no means bottom of the line -- comprises a Gigabyte microATX board with HDMI, lots of SATA,, USB, Firewire, Ethernet, and 7.1 audio, An AMD Phenom Dual Core 3.1ghz processor, 4gb DDR3 1333 memory, 500gb Hard Drive, 430w Power supply, and a nice cool running nMEDIA HTPC case came in right at $452.

Add an OS (free to $119).

This is quantity 1 pricing and, as I said, is by no means the minimum system needed.

And it DOES run very quietly - quieter than my TiVoHD.

lew

10-21-2009, 10:24 AM

FYI - The one I built - which is by no means bottom of the line -- comprises a Gigabyte microATX board with HDMI, lots of SATA,, USB, Firewire, Ethernet, and 7.1 audio, An AMD Phenom Dual Core 3.1ghz processor, 4gb DDR3 1333 memory, 500gb Hard Drive, 430w Power supply, and a nice cool running nMEDIA HTPC case came in right at $452.

Add an OS (free to $119).

This is quantity 1 pricing and, as I said, is by no means the minimum system needed.

And it DOES run very quietly - quieter than my TiVoHD.

The OEM price for windows 7 is over $100. Add the cost of the 4 tuner card and you're over $950. A 500Gig drive isn't adequate for a 4 tuner DVR. I don't know what you paid for your 500Gig drive, I'll assume current pricing for a 1T drive wouldn't raise the cost of your system above $1,000.

The question is how much will Dell charge for a HTPC with the 4 (or 6) tuner card included.

RoyK

10-21-2009, 11:30 AM

The OEM price for windows 7 is over $100. Add the cost of the 4 tuner card and you're over $950. A 500Gig drive isn't adequate for a 4 tuner DVR. I don't know what you paid for your 500Gig drive, I'll assume current pricing for a 1T drive wouldn't raise the cost of your system above $1,000.

The question is how much will Dell charge for a HTPC with the 4 (or 6) tuner card included.

The corollary question is how much will TiVo charge for a 4 tuner PC with a 1Tbyte drive, Lifetime subscription, the response and performance of my HTPC, and full capability of access to all media available on the internet.

slowbiscuit

10-21-2009, 02:12 PM

And once again lew, you have to factor in that since there isn't a 4-tuner Tivo, you have to pay the cableCo additional outlet fees for the second Tivo. In my case that's an extra $72 a year. You won't have that with a 4-tuner HTPC.

Dell has a PC on their website right now (http://configure.us.dell.com/dellstore/config.aspx?oc=dddota2&c=us&l=en&s=dhs&cs=19&kc=desktops_great_deals) that's not much different than Roy's for $429 with a 500GB hard drive and Win7 Home Premium. If you bump that up to a TB and assume $400 for the tuner card, you're looking at $900. Throw in an Xbox360 extender and it's $1100 total, which is still cheaper than two Tivos, with no additional outlet fees (which is even better if you can get a 6-tuner card).

But as I said, I've seen Office Depot, Staples, etc. selling dual-core PCs for around $300. All of these have plenty of power to record and stream 4 shows, because it's not all that CPU (or disk) intensive to do so.

ah30k

10-21-2009, 03:07 PM

RoyK

10-21-2009, 04:03 PM

None of these PC tuners seem to be able to offer the CableCARD option to decode any of the encrypted digital channels that MANY of the operators are now encrypting.

It seems any comparison to the S3 is incomplete without CableCARDs in the discussion.

Am I missing something?

Yep. Where have you been?

There was a topic in this forum discussing the new Ceton cablecard tuners but it seems that all but the most recent topics have disappeared. You can find more info here (http://www.cetoncorp.com/ProductsVista.php)

ah30k

10-21-2009, 04:16 PM

moyekj

10-21-2009, 04:23 PM

OK, I'll be clearer in my statement...

I think a 4-tuner pc that is not capable of tuning any encrypted channels is a non-starter for most consumers since a large portion of the digital channel map is encrypted.

Comparing that to two dual-tuner S3 is not a valid comparison at all. Read the link posted above for the Ceton tuners. There are new CableCard multi-tuners coming out ~ Q1 next year which can be added to pretty much any PC running Windows 7. To this point CableCard tuners have been available but they as part of closed OEM systems where you have to buy the whole expensive system. CableLabs & MSFT have now relaxed the DRM a little and made it much easier for anyone to buy CableCard tuners now and the prospect of these more accessible/cheaper CableCard multi-tuners is what is spurring threads such as these.

lew

10-21-2009, 04:24 PM

We understood what you said the first time.
Did you read the OP?
Did you bother clicking on the link in Roy's post?
http://www.cetoncorp.com/ProductsVista.php

You asked if you're missing something. The answer is yes.

OK, I'll be clearer in my statement...

I think a 4-tuner pc that is not capable of tuning any encrypted channels is a non-starter for most consumers since a large portion of the digital channel map is encrypted.

Comparing that to two dual-tuner S3 is not a valid comparison at all.

lew

10-21-2009, 04:34 PM

The standard processor and RAM included with that Dell computer doesn't meet the minimum system requirements of the Centon card.

Posters who suggest most people can use their existing PC or buy the cheapest new PC found in a local office supply store are oversimplifying the process.

We have no idea how much a cable system will charge for a second SDV dongle for one DVR with one M card.

Tivo will a bigger issue when cable system DVRs come with larger drives, additional tuners and will stream using coax (MoCA) to standard STBs.

Dell has a PC on their website right now (http://configure.us.dell.com/dellstore/config.aspx?oc=dddota2&c=us&l=en&s=dhs&cs=19&kc=desktops_great_deals) that's not much different than Roy's for $429 with a 500GB hard drive and Win7 Home Premium. If you bump that up to a TB and assume $400 for the tuner card, you're looking at $900. Throw in an Xbox360 extender and it's $1100 total, which is still cheaper than two Tivos, with no additional outlet fees (which is even better if you can get a 6-tuner card).

But as I said, I've seen Office Depot, Staples, etc. selling dual-core PCs for around $300. All of these have plenty of power to record and stream 4 shows, because it's not all that CPU (or disk) intensive to do so.

ah30k

10-21-2009, 04:54 PM

We understood what you said the first time.
Did you read the OP?
Did you bother clicking on the link in Roy's post?
http://www.cetoncorp.com/ProductsVista.php

You asked if you're missing something. The answer is yes.Roy's post with that link was edited after I hit reply and not visible when I posted my post. Look at the time-stamps and edit time-stamps. His first reply was a useless comment such as "yep you are missing something" with no clarifying words.

My comment was about the fact that everyone is talking about PCs under or near $1k and that is not a very good comparison due to encrypted content.

Did anyone else make that comment here? Maybe I missed that comment so my apologies if I did.

innocentfreak

10-21-2009, 05:30 PM

My comment was about the fact that everyone is talking about PCs under or near $1k and that is not a very good comparison due to encrypted content.

Did anyone else make that comment here? Maybe I missed that comment so my apologies if I did.

You seem to be missing the fact the Ceton card is a cable card tuner, just like the tuners in the Tivo HD and Series 3, and with a cable card from the cable company you will be able to view and record four channels at once. The same channels you currently have access on a Tivo with a cable card you will have access to with this setup.

MichaelK

10-21-2009, 06:03 PM

The corollary question is how much will TiVo charge for a 4 tuner PC with a 1Tbyte drive, Lifetime subscription, the response and performance of my HTPC, and full capability of access to all media available on the internet.

depends does it need to be as stable and user friendly as the current tivo 2-tuner models or can it be as crappy as people think MS is?

(windows 7 may change things but the reality is people think MS is bloated messware that requires non-stop patching and tweaking and will bluescreen on a regular basis- so people just aren't going to flock to windows DVR's without that perception (even if it's wrong) changing.)

RoyK

10-21-2009, 06:08 PM

depends does it need to be as stable and user friendly as the current tivo 2-tuner models or can it be as crappy as people think MS is?

(windows 7 may change things but the reality is people think MS is bloated messware that requires non-stop patching and tweaking and will bluescreen on a regular basis- so people just aren't going to flock to windows DVR's without that perception (even if it's wrong) changing.)

Give me a break. I haven't seen blue screen on windows in years.
You may think it's bloated messware but the reality is that many millions of folks use it every day with no problems.

As for windows 7. I've been running the release candidate for months and can testify that it is far and away the best and most stable OS that Miscrosoft has ever fielded -- and I'm old enough to have run them all from DOS 1 on.

On the other hand my TiVos are the ones that need frequent rebooting for gray screens, loss of visibility of other TiVos on MRV and sometimes just because they decide to reboot themselves.

MichaelK

10-21-2009, 06:08 PM

talking about power consumption...

Don't forget though with the PC and extenders they aren't on 24/7 like the Tivo is but usage will definitely vary. Without cable cards mine is only on 7:50-11:00 or for the occasional times I am watching something outside of the primetime slot.

will win 7 turn the pc on (or take it out of sleep or whatever MS calls it this time around) to record something?

I think an average HTPC/DVR that is replacing a tivo is likely to be recording a lot more often then 3 hours a day. My tivo's probably are recording something well over 14 hours a day (but i have kids so it's recording dora or star wars or phineas cartoons nonstop during daylight.)

all that said- to be honest- outside of the HTPC forums discussing power consumption has anyone ever heard anyone say "well I wont buy that cool gizmo becasue it's a power hog?" - outside of ed beigly (sp?) and bill nye would anyone?

So i dont know if that would even be in most people's math on the issue.

ZeoTiVo

10-21-2009, 06:14 PM

You really have no idea what you're talking about, and haven't priced PCs lately. You can buy a $300 PC with Win7 Home Premium (and MC) from any office supply store that can do what you said, then add a TB drive to it. Yes, they are quiet, and if you don't like the looks (as I said above and you conveniently choose to ignore), you can hide the PC.

Stop being blinded by Tivo and face the facts that an HTPC setup with the new tuners, *for certain users*, will be a cheaper deal than a multi-room Tivo setup, with way more capabilities. Yes, there are tradeoffs, but I guarantee you that it will be cheaper.

FYI - The one I built - which is by no means bottom of the line -- comprises a Gigabyte microATX board with HDMI, lots of SATA,, USB, Firewire, Ethernet, and 7.1 audio, An AMD Phenom Dual Core 3.1ghz processor, 4gb DDR3 1333 memory, 500gb Hard Drive, 430w Power supply, and a nice cool running nMEDIA HTPC case came in right at $452.

Add an OS (free to $119).

This is quantity 1 pricing and, as I said, is by no means the minimum system needed.

And it DOES run very quietly - quieter than my TiVoHD.

While I at times disagree with Roy - he, like I, does know what he is talking about and his bias would be toward an HTPC. so lets look at his costs for an actual system versus the piece of junk you put out as an HTPC you want to put a CETON card in.

so 452$ for his nicely specced system
100$ for Windows needed for the cable card
100$ to get some extra HArd Drive to store the files.
so 650$

and how many folks will stop at just 1TB extra.
How many folks would get a wireless keyboard or at least a remote control? No way would I have an HTPC without at least a BluRay player in it. The costs do add up. After all the HTPC can do more so why downgrade its value with inferior cheap PC junk.

As I have said all along the HTPC is a fine way to go, you get more for the money spent and can spec the unit to the level of power that it runs as snappy as you want and does the cool things you want.
Just do not let your own BIAS towards HTPC lead to fuzzy specs and math.

MichaelK

10-21-2009, 06:14 PM

Give me a break. I haven't seen blue screen on windows in years.
You may think it's bloated messware but the reality is that millions of folks use it every day with no problems.

As for windows 7. I've been running the release candidate for months and can testify that it is far and away the best and most stable OS that Miscrosoft has ever fielded -- and I'm old enough to have run them all from DOS 1 on.

Roy, notice I did not say that I possessed that belief. I have no beefs with my vista pc's running Office 2007, I use IE8 instead of firefox or opera or chrome, and as above I BUILT a vista home premium HTPC. I used MS Money untill recently when they abandoned the market so I had to get quicken. So for me MS based pc's and apps work fine.

But I think there is certainly a public perception that MS crashes or locks up all the time and is difficult to learn. everyone "hates vista"- MS has to have the stupid Mojave commercials becasue people choke at the sound of vista. And the apple "cool dude" commercials certainly resonate with plenty of people.

If you think that MS and Vista have such a great name then why didn't they name the new OS "vista 2010" or "Vista 2"?

Part of the discussion is that Tivo "better get 4 tuner models soon becasue Win 7 Ceton machines are going to be the 'Tivo-killer'"- and my point was MS isn't overwelming competition to TiVo until people in general dont dispise MS. Assuming Win 7 changes everyones perceptions that still wont happen overnight.

innocentfreak

10-21-2009, 06:16 PM

talking about power consumption...

will win 7 turn the pc on (or take it out of sleep or whatever MS calls it this time around) to record something?

I think an average HTPC/DVR that is replacing a tivo is likely to be recording a lot more often then 3 hours a day. My tivo's probably are recording something well over 14 hours a day (but i have kids so it's recording dora or star wars or phineas cartoons nonstop during daylight.)

all that said- to be honest- outside of the HTPC forums discussing power consumption has anyone ever heard anyone say "well I wont buy that cool gizmo becasue it's a power hog?" - outside of ed beigly (sp?) and bill nye would anyone?

So i dont know if that would even be in most people's math on the issue.

Yeah it will. My Win 7 DVR goes to sleep 10 minutes after inactivity so usually goes to sleep around 11:10 and wakes up at 7:50-7:55 to record depending on how early I set the buffer. Also it will wake if I turn on the 360 and go into Media Center and go back to sleep 10 minutes after I turn off the 360.

Oh I agree and thought I mentioned it, but right now with just local channels since I have clearqam tuners I only need it for primetime. Once I get cable card tuners that will definitely increase but never to the point it being 24/7.

ZeoTiVo

10-21-2009, 06:18 PM

The corollary question is how much will TiVo charge for a 4 tuner PC with a 1Tbyte drive, Lifetime subscription, the response and performance of my HTPC, and full capability of access to all media available on the internet.

and to again answer the actual OP's question ;)
TiVo could not sell enough of such a thing to ever justify it at any cost. It is indeed a tradeoff on the route to go.

MichaelK

10-21-2009, 06:20 PM

..

so 452$ for his nicely specced system
100$ for Windows needed for the cable card
100$ to get some extra HArd Drive to store the files.
so 650$
...

is the consensus 400 for the 4 tuner ceton card?

and then $100 for an extender. That gets you to ~1100. Or about the price of 2 tivo's with lifetime- which also yeilds 4 tuners at 2 tv's.

or is my math off?

So the money isn't going to be the only factor.

MichaelK

10-21-2009, 06:21 PM

Yeah it will. My Win 7 DVR goes to sleep 10 minutes after inactivity so usually goes to sleep around 11:10 and wakes up at 7:50-7:55 to record depending on how early I set the buffer. Also it will wake if I turn on the 360 and go into Media Center and go back to sleep 10 minutes after I turn off the 360.

...

that's pretty cool.

Dan203

10-21-2009, 06:42 PM

If you have an HTPC like this set up as a sort of server, with all the TVs having MCE Exteners like XBox 360s, is there anyway to schedule new recordings on the HTPC without physically going to the box? Can you do it via the extender? What about deleting recording's you've watched?

I'm wondering if I could put a capture card in my main PC, which is always running anyway, and serve it up to my TV via my Xbox while still having full control over what it records/deletes without having to go to the PC itself.

Dan

innocentfreak

10-21-2009, 06:55 PM

Yeah you can pretty much do anything you want through the Extender that you could do in Media Center on the HTPC.

engadget review (http://www.engadgethd.com/2009/07/27/windows-7-media-center-review/) shows Media Center through the 360. This is based off the RC without things like Netflix which was just recently added.

Dan203

10-21-2009, 07:20 PM

Can you watch online content like Hulu via an XBox 360?

If so I need to reconsider my setup. I currently have an HTPC in the living room which I really only use for the occasional instance I want to watch something off Hulu, or one of the network sites, or on the even rare occasion when there is some sort of conflict I can't resolve on my 2 S3 and 2 S2 TiVos. (mostly only happens when there is something I want to watch in HD that conflicts with the 4 tuners in the S3 units)

If I could simply put a capture card in my main PC, which runs all the time anyway, and then have full control over it via the XBox that would be a much better, and more convenient solution.

Dan

fyodor

10-21-2009, 07:26 PM

You can watch Hulu on an Xbox 360 (or a PS3) by using Playon Media Server.

Can you watch online content like Hulu via an XBox 360?

If so I need to reconsider my setup. I currently have an HTPC in the living room which I really only use for the occasional instance I want to watch something off Hulu, or one of the network sites, or on the even rare occasion when there is some sort of conflict I can't resolve on my 2 S3 and 2 S2 TiVos. (mostly only happens when there is something I want to watch in HD that conflicts with the 4 tuners in the S3 units)

If I could simply put a capture card in my main PC, which runs all the time anyway, and then have full control over it via the XBox that would be a much better, and more convenient solution.

Dan

spocko

10-21-2009, 07:35 PM

What's the DRM like in Win 7 MCE? Are the recordings locked to the same machine they are recorded on, or does it give you the same flexibility with non-CCI protected material as Tivo does?

innocentfreak

10-21-2009, 07:41 PM

Windows 7 with the Ceton card uses and follows the same flag as tivo does. The big difference is you can still view the flagged content via an extender since it doesn't try to move the content.

spocko

10-21-2009, 08:07 PM

innocentfreak

10-21-2009, 08:14 PM

I don't know on the files marked copy freely since as long as I can play it somewhere in the house I am good to go.

I imagine it is similar to .tivo files transfered to the PC.

bkdtv

10-22-2009, 01:21 AM

Thanks. They of course have to use DRM to enforce the "copy never" and "copy once" CCI flags, but what about content that is flagged as "copy freely", is any DRM added to that? Even Tivo adds some DRM to .tivo files which are copied via TTG, since they are tied to a specific MAK. If MCE's DRM is more restrictive than Tivo, then Tivo would still have an advantage in that area.At the moment, all content recorded from encrypted channels -- including that flagged as "copy freely" is saved with DRM under Vista MC and Windows 7. Recordings saved with DRM can't be manipulated or played on other computers, but they can be streamed to authorized extenders like the Xbox360.

Before year's end, ATI plans to release a firmware update that will change that behavior so only "copy one generation" (CCI=0x02) programs are saved with DRM. The Ceton tuner should function in the same way when it ships in Q1 2010.

RoyK

10-22-2009, 05:21 AM

For those concerned about the cost of Windows 7 be advised that Windows 7 Home Premium family pack (upgrades for 3 PCs) is now available for $149. I ordered mine this morning from NewEgg.

Considering that the single upgrade price for the same version is $119 the family pack offers quite a savings if you are a multiple pc household.

slowbiscuit

10-22-2009, 07:30 AM

is the consensus 400 for the 4 tuner ceton card?

and then $100 for an extender. That gets you to ~1100. Or about the price of 2 tivo's with lifetime- which also yeilds 4 tuners at 2 tv's.

or is my math off?

So the money isn't going to be the only factor.
We don't know what the price for the Ceton (or any other) 4-tuner card is going to be, but $100/tuner is a reasonable guess.

But your math is off for the Tivos - I don't see how you can get 2 of them w/lifetime for less than $1200 at current prices. You also forgot that the PC has a 1TB drive in it, so you have to factor in drive upgrades for the Tivos. That makes it least $1300 for two. Also don't forget, the HTPC setup gets even cheaper after 2 TVs because you only need to buy extenders, and you don't pay additional outlet fees for those. You have to pay extra every month for every Tivo after the first.

For that matter, for those that care about how a PC looks (or sounds), there's no reason not to just use the PC as a server in a basement, network closet, etc. and buy extenders for all the TVs. I guarantee you that even a cheap PC has plenty of power to handle that, because it's not serving up video to a TV (and doing all the other Windows GUI stuff).

slowbiscuit

10-22-2009, 07:50 AM

The standard processor and RAM included with that Dell computer doesn't meet the minimum system requirements of the Centon card.

Posters who suggest most people can use their existing PC or buy the cheapest new PC found in a local office supply store are oversimplifying the process.

We have no idea how much a cable system will charge for a second SDV dongle for one DVR with one M card.

Tivo will a bigger issue when cable system DVRs come with larger drives, additional tuners and will stream using coax (MoCA) to standard STBs.
No, this poster suggests that people that know what they're doing can build it with a cheap PC, e.g. by using it simply as a server. I never suggested that this setup was for the average person, because I would never recommend any HTPC setup for the average person.
So the comparison to a mythical 4-tuner Tivo (or 2 Tivo HDs) is being made on that basis - the niche market of enthusiasts looking for a better (and cheaper) solution than what Tivo offers.

emp

10-22-2009, 09:32 AM

Oh, for crying out loud! Please, that is L-R-H-O-R-E-R, not Irhorer, and certainly not Irhoror.

lol sorry, I don't know how that happened, I thought I copy and pasted but I guess not... fixed now.

rtoledo

10-23-2009, 03:39 AM

is the consensus 400 for the 4 tuner ceton card?

and then $100 for an extender. That gets you to ~1100. Or about the price of 2 tivo's with lifetime- which also yeilds 4 tuners at 2 tv's.

or is my math off?

So the money isn't going to be the only factor.:D

ok I'll brake my word. not having a Tivo I have to admit to not understanding some of the lingo in here.

and maybe it's me, but I seem to get the impression that some folks are going out of their way to justify what they have versus a new box.

but put yourselves in my shoes, I pay for 6 boxes to Verizon, so when I get this Ceton Card I will still have a DVR in the front room and 5 other boxes throughout the house.

so are those boxes what you guys call extenders? if so I'm covered.

as for the cost of my computer , well I see it as I already have 7 computers in this house and to me 5 of them can handle the Ceton card with no problem

AAMOF there is one computer in each room close to those boxes i mentioned. so forgive me when I just don't see it that way. I don't know what Tivo's business model is do they consider the tv guide fees their "bread and butter" ? or is it making and selling the hardware?

so to counter your point I see it as a 400.00 ONLY investment. and face it most people do not equate the cost of their computer into anything other than part of their entertainment/communication costs and will not tie it in with "upgrading / improving their pc " with a new gadget

either way what ever Tivo does a lot of folks will be buyng this card, and that is a easy bet.

slowbiscuit

10-23-2009, 07:12 AM

No, the only Windows Media Center HD extenders available right now (short of closeouts on discontinued models from Linksys and D-Link) are Xbox360s. The cheapest one is the Arcade model at $200 each new, but they're easy to find used for $150 or less. So you'd have to buy 5 (or 6) of those to replace your Verizon boxes.

There may be other new extenders released next year for Win7 MC, but right now Xbox is it.

ZeoTiVo

10-23-2009, 04:08 PM

so to counter your point I see it as a 400.00 ONLY investment. and face it most people do not equate the cost of their computer into anything other than part of their entertainment/communication costs and will not tie it in with "upgrading / improving their pc " with a new gadget

either way what ever Tivo does a lot of folks will be buyng this card, and that is a easy bet.
correct - you have 7 PCs and 5 DVRs in your house - you are squarely the niche being referred to in other posts. You and others with similar household setups would be crazy not to check out the CETON card. Assuming it works well the HTPC niche will likely dive enmasse for the cards and sales will be brisk.

What wont happen is there being a HTPC sitting in a box besides the TiVo DVRs at best buy. Online HTPC sales will be either turnkey or inexpensive but not both at the same time.
So the idea that there will be a 4 tuner Tivo model needed to compete with the PC cable card tuners is simply incorrect.

innocentfreak

10-23-2009, 04:32 PM

I just got the new catalog for Dell and on several pages now for the first time it is advertising adding on tv tuner cards with your new Windows 7 home media PC. It listed the price of $60 so I am assuming they are the Avermedia tuners since that is where I bought mine along with pictures of the tuner card at the bottom of the pages with the media pcs. Of course it is only the ATSC/Clearqam tuners but it looks like they may start to put it out there more and more.

bareyb

10-24-2009, 03:34 PM

:D

either way what ever Tivo does a lot of folks will be buyng this card, and that is a easy bet.

I'll take that bet any day. ;)
They'll sell a few to hobbyists, but I'd bet that the number of folks who actually use a self made HTPC for their main TV/DVR viewing rig will remain statistically insignificant, as it is now. :)

moyekj

10-24-2009, 06:01 PM

I'll take that bet any day. ;)
They'll sell a few to hobbyists, but I'd bet that the number of folks who actually use a self made HTPC for their main TV/DVR viewing rig will remain statistically insignificant, as it is now. :) Just like us CableCard Tivo users are also statistically insignificant.

bareyb

10-24-2009, 08:57 PM

Just like us CableCard Tivo users are also statistically insignificant.

Oh I wouldn't say that. We're #2 behind the Cableco's. Just a really distant #2. :p

innocentfreak

10-24-2009, 09:25 PM

ZeoTiVo

10-25-2009, 02:37 AM

lrhorer

10-25-2009, 03:22 AM

Also as far as cases being ugly, there are tons out there to choose from depending on what you want to spend or you can always do like I do and have the computer in a central location while using the 360 to watch everything.

Some samples of cases
Yeah, but none of them is as small and unobtrusive as a TiVo. Now I personally don't happen to care, and if I were going to roll my own I think I would get something like one of the ultra-compact Dell machines and run MythTV. If this solution doesn't appeal to an uber-geek like me, though, I can't even begin to see it appealing to John Q. Public and especially not to his wife.

lrhorer

10-25-2009, 03:44 AM

Give me a break. I haven't seen blue screen on windows in years.
Yes, the BSOD is much more rare now than before, although I did see a couple a few months ago.

You may think it's bloated messware
Bloated, vastly over-priced, buggy, unstable, fat-headed, and genrally a royal PITA. My friends and family have heard me swear, "I HATE Windows!" so many times daily, they would check my pulse if an hour went by without my screaming it at the display.

but the reality is that many millions of folks use it every day with no problems.
I have yet to come across one. OTOH, few people actually use their computers. Most just play around with the mouse and look at the pretty pictures. Funny how, even so, the number of people who accost me with Windows problems is higher than the number asking me for money. That's saying a lot.

As for windows 7. I've been running the release candidate for months and can testify that it is far and away the best and most stable OS that Miscrosoft has ever fielded -- and I'm old enough to have run them all from DOS 1 on.
Perhaps, but that's not saying much. I administer a large number of HP-UX systems that have been running continuously under heavy load without a reboot for over 10 years. My Linux systems are usually only shut down during an extended power outage, or when I upgrade the kernel. The Windows system at which I sit at this very moment went unstable only a day after the previous reboot, and there is no way of which I know to recover stability once the workstation has become unstable. I kept it up as long as possible, but when I was forced to reboot it a few hours ago, it had been up less than a week. I expect it to go unstable again by tomorrow morning. It almost always does.

On the other hand my TiVos are the ones that need frequent rebooting for gray screens, loss of visibility of other TiVos on MRV and sometimes just because they decide to reboot themselves.
Maybe not:

bash-2.02# uptime
07:37:17 up 10 days, 4:02, load average: 3.42, 3.50, 3.44

bash-2.02# uptime
07:39:18 up 13 days, 2:06, load average: 3.46, 3.25, 3.18
Both those reboots were in fact unnecessary, at that, but rebooting the unit is an easy thing to do when a problem arises.

My S1 has been up over 3 months, but it doesn't have the uptime command on it.

lrhorer

10-25-2009, 03:54 AM

lol sorry, I don't know how that happened, I thought I copy and pasted but I guess not... fixed now.
Thanks.

moyekj

10-25-2009, 11:20 AM

bash-2.02# uptime
07:37:17 up 10 days, 4:02, load average: 3.42, 3.50, 3.44

bash-2.02# uptime
07:39:18 up 13 days, 2:06, load average: 3.46, 3.25, 3.18
I found those load numbers interesting and quite high. No wonder these units are pretty sluggish to respond in general, especially if you haven't interacted with them in a while. I would love to see the difference in performance with overkill processors & RAM.

mikeyts

10-25-2009, 02:23 PM

EngadgetHD said there are only 443,000 stand alone cable cards deployed across the US and figure most people who have a CC probably have more than one in their home.

Only 443,000 cable cards deployed (http://www.engadgethd.com/2009/09/30/only-443-000-cablecards-depoyed-into-consumers-equipment/)It's quite a testimonial to the effectiveness of the cable industry's efforts to supress the technology. For quite some time after the release of CableCARDs, anyone calling a cable provider for them were actively dissuaded from using them and their support for them was attrocious. A big factor in the "failure" of the technology was the FCC's allowing the cable providers to wiggle out of immediate use of them in their leased equipment for the first couple of years, using the excuse that they wanted to complete the M-Card spec and OCAP first (they were supposed to stop buying non-CableCARD equipment for lease on 1 July 2005, but it was delayed until 1 July 2007, and they had the nerve to ask for even more time to complete DCAS, which was denied). The CEA (an association of consumer electionics equipment manufacturers) screamed bloody murder when the FCC allowed this, and with good reason. It would be interesting to see what would have happened with CableCARDs if the cable providers had supported the technology more enthusiastically, but we'll never know :rolleyes:.

It's a moot point now. The cable industry's apparent direction is <tru2way>, which is going to require separable security, which will still mean CableCARDs, given their utter failure to complete DCAS (a sort of built-in CableCARD functionality which could be downloaded with the proprietary security system being used by each provider locally).

bicker

10-26-2009, 06:56 AM

So why buy a tivo, when i just use a old pc i already have...Huh? What makes you think this approach would work with some random old personal computer? (Or did you mean, solely, among the old personal computers that you personally have?)

lew

10-26-2009, 01:23 PM

:
and maybe it's me, but I seem to get the impression that some folks are going out of their way to justify what they have versus a new box.

Not really. Some of the posters in this thread bought S1 units and later upgraded to S2 and S3 units. Some posters in this thread question how big a market tivo will have for a 4 tuner unit, at a price point that makes sense for tivo and for the customer. I don't think a 4 tuner unit makes any sense unless it works with some kind of media extender. The question is if a 4 tuner unit will be out soon, not if it will ever come out. I suspect cable DVRs support of then 2 tuners will motivate tivo a lot more then HTPCs. Tivo has deals with RCN and Comcast. I'm sure tivo will release a 4 (or 6) tuner unit if those vendors request such a unit.

but put yourselves in my shoes, I pay for 6 boxes to Verizon, so when I get this Ceton Card I will still have a DVR in the front room and 5 other boxes throughout the house.........

as for the cost of my computer , well I see it as I already have 7 computers in this house and to me 5 of them can handle the Ceton card with no problem

.....either way what ever Tivo does a lot of folks will be buyng this card, and that is a easy bet.

I don't think the typical customer has 6 DVRs (or even 6 STBs) from their cable system. You're the kind of customer who's likely to go the HTPC route, regardless of what tivo does. The 6 tuner model might make more sense for your application.

Sometimes the first company to "invent a new product category" loses. Are there any Xerox brand copiers being sold? IBM branded/manufactured PCs? Osborne made the first portable (luggable) PC.

I'm not sure if there is a big enough market for standalone DVRs for tivo to survive. I suspect tivo will need more arrangements like the deals with DTV, Comcast, RCN etc if they want to stay in business.

CrispyCritter

10-26-2009, 03:38 PM

I'm not sure if there is a big enough market for standalone DVRs for tivo to survive. I suspect tivo will need more arrangements like the deals with DTV, Comcast, RCN etc if they want to stay in business.
Absolutely. TiVo abandoned the stand-alone market as their growth market a couple of years ago. All future growth in the next few years will come from the cable and satellite arrangements. I see the stand-alone market serving as their premium testing facility - trying out features that they want to sell to the cable companies. (The very long-term prognosis for the cable companies is unknown - I'm not worried about TiVo dropping their stand-alone models just for that reason, if not for other reasons.)

I really don't see the cable companies as being strongly interested in four tuner models for a while - they make money on additional outlet fees at the moment, and I don't think they will charge additional outlet fees for an extender. Perhaps in a few years when things have settled down.

lew

10-26-2009, 04:08 PM

I really don't see the cable companies as being strongly interested in four tuner models for a while - they make money on additional outlet fees at the moment, and I don't think they will charge additional outlet fees for an extender. Perhaps in a few years when things have settled down.

I'm not suggesting a cable DVR will work with a "standard" extender (X-Box). The FiOS DVR will stream to a a FiOS STB. They use MoCA so the customer doesn't have to worry about running cat5 wires or have "issues" with wireless.

Having a 4 (or 6 tuner) DVR with a 1T hard drive makes a lot more sense what FiOS is currently using (2 tuner DVR with a small hard drive).

gkacher

10-26-2009, 05:30 PM

DirecTV's DVR is capable of MRV, but they haven't released the software to the general public. It also shows a consolidated "Now Playing" screen and allows deletion of shows on other DVRs in your network. It does not allow you to program a DVR in another room to record a show though. That box uses 100 mb Ethernet to ship 720p around my house in the beta program. It works pretty darn well. Tivo lost me as a customer when DirecTV went to MPEG 4. As a Sunday Ticket subscriber, I lost the ability to watch it in HD. Tivo unfortunately is out of my house now.

schwinn

10-26-2009, 06:05 PM

Yes, the BSOD is much more rare now than before, although I did see a couple a few months ago.

[rest of the post deleted for brevity]
Damn right. I have tried to build windows 2000 and XP HTPCs in the past, and although they may work for a few weeks, they start to stutter and stall repeatedly. And that's not even considering the numerous updates that just bring the machines down more and more as time progresses. On the other hand, my S1 tivo and MythTV box (built on the hardware as the above Win2k/XP machine) have been running flawlessly for years now.

Windows is fine, when rebooted every so often, and when used lightly. Start putting a heavy load on it, and it stutters and stalls if it doesn't die outright. Hell, we have computers at work that will bluescreen and crap out for no apparent reason, just running engineering CAD software. So don't tell me that Windows doesn't BSOD anymore... it does. Granted, it's FAR better than it used to be, but I wouldn't trust it for 24x7 service unless you REALLY overspec the hardware.

Another example, my company builds large industrial manufacturing equipment. The old systems used to run *nix based OSes, or something real-time capable. Those ran on 486 PCs, with limited specs. The new replacement machines run on 3 Dell Poweredge Servers, with quad core CPUs and gobs of RAM, and RAID arrays... and they still stutter and stall unless they program them "just right". Granted, these are real-time applications, but isn't that what a DVR is? A perfect example of how the system just can't hold up.

Again, I am sure Win7 CAN work with sufficient hardware... but I can do what Win7 does in half the hardware under Linux, and it runs 24x7. Windows simply does not.

Unfortunaelty, we don't get the option of using cable cards on Linux (because the cable companies think that this will prevent torrenting... it doesn't) so my Mythbox will be getting less useful, I know. Frankly, I hate Comcast so much for this nonsense, I may drop to OTA digital and use Hulu for the rest of it...

Just my $0.02...

SNJpage1

10-26-2009, 11:28 PM

ZeoTiVo

10-26-2009, 11:31 PM

Huh? What makes you think this approach would work with some random old personal computer? (Or did you mean, solely, among the old personal computers that you personally have?)

videodrome seems to think that your HTPC should be a cheap PC so it costs less than a TiVo DVR and thus somehow means TiVo needs to build a 4 tuner DVR since everyone will be using these cheap PC DVRs. Frankly, if I built a HTPC it would be for the power and features and not for the price point.

ZeoTiVo

10-26-2009, 11:35 PM

Another example, my company builds large industrial manufacturing equipment. The old systems used to run *nix based OSes, or something real-time capable. Those ran on 486 PCs, with limited specs. The new replacement machines run on 3 Dell Poweredge Servers, with quad core CPUs and gobs of RAM, and RAID arrays... and they still stutter and stall unless they program them "just right". Granted, these are real-time applications, but isn't that what a DVR is? A perfect example of how the system just can't hold up.
exactly why you do not use a 300$ PC from office depot or some old PC lying around for HTPC. Hardware keeps getting cheaper but cable cards on win 7 will need decent hardware.

Videodrome

10-27-2009, 10:01 AM

moyekj

10-27-2009, 11:09 AM

The big problem I see with 4 or 6 tuner cards is finding six things worth recording that are all on at the exact same time. I have had reason to want to record three but never four. For that I used both of my Tivo's. For me during the week pretty much all of my recordings center around prime time (8-11pm) while the rest of the time nothing records. Throw in sports recordings during prime time that hog a tuner for multiple hours with padding and it's pretty much guaranteed that 4 tuners are a must and sometimes 5 tuners are needed.

orangeboy

10-27-2009, 11:11 AM

The big problem I see with 4 or 6 tuner cards is finding six things worth recording that are all on at the exact same time. I have had reason to want to record three but never four. For that I used both of my Tivo's.
Not if you have 4 tvs, and you can stream a live broadcast.

I don't understand your response. How does the amount of TVs or the ability to stream effect the number of channels you want to record? If I buy 10 TVs, does that mean there will be more programming that I want to watch available to me? To SNJpage1's point, if there are only 3 channels that are worth recording at one time, half of a 6 tuner card will go to waste. No?

Videodrome

10-27-2009, 11:19 AM

I don't understand your response. How does the amount of TVs or the ability to stream effect the number of channels you want to record? If I buy 10 TVs, does that mean there will be more programming that I want to watch available to me? To SNJpage1's point, if there are only 3 channels that are worth recording at one time, half of a 6 tuner card will go to waste. No?

ummm, lets see. One device for many tvs. Similar to Moxi, how it can stream video to many extenders. If i have maybe 4 tvs, i might want to watch LIVE tv on them. So having multiple tuners facilitates that.. are you being sarcastic ? Why would i want to pay for 4 cablecards, when i could pay for one.

Dmon4u

10-27-2009, 02:32 PM

The options for STB/DVR's are growing, so TiVo better have something coming soon:

http://www.multichannel.com/article/366558-Motorola_Slims_Down_HD_Set_Tops.php

The DVR part of the story By Todd Spangler - Multichannel News -
"A separate forthcoming set-top model (by Motorola), the DCX3300, has a dual tuner and DVR capabilities but doesn't include hard disks. Rather, it connects to an external eSATA storage device. "That's looking toward giving the operators more options about how and when they spend capital," Snow said.

Both set-tops support MPEG-2 and MPEG-4 HD, as well as CableLabs' tru2way specification. The units also include an option for Multimedia over Coax Alliance (MoCA) home networking and CableCard support for U.S. operators."

orangeboy

10-27-2009, 03:46 PM

ummm, lets see. One device for many tvs. Similar to Moxi, how it can stream video to many extenders. If i have maybe 4 tvs, i might want to watch LIVE tv on them. So having multiple tuners facilitates that.. are you being sarcastic ? Why would i want to pay for 4 cablecards, when i could pay for one.

No, no sarcasm. Your original response was unclear to me. But not now that you've elaborated on using extenders. With this setup, it still wouldn't be one device for many TVs. It would be number of devices equal number of TVs. But yes, there would just be one tuning device plus extender devices.

MichaelK

10-27-2009, 08:41 PM

MichaelK

10-27-2009, 08:43 PM

ummm, lets see. One device for many tvs. Similar to Moxi, how it can stream video to many extenders. If i have maybe 4 tvs, i might want to watch LIVE tv on them. So having multiple tuners facilitates that.. are you being sarcastic ? Why would i want to pay for 4 cablecards, when i could pay for one.

seriously- not being sarcastic- you think the need to rent 3 more cablecards for 3-6 bucks is a major motivator for people to get an HTPC and 3 extenders?

Now if you are tossing in "additonal outlet fees" then maybe the cost gets to be more than 20 bucks savings a month. But how many people understand that?

There were actually plenty of examples of systems where buying a tivo was cheaper than renting a cable company DVR if calculated out for a few years- yet that never seemed to be a huge selling point.

SNJpage1

10-27-2009, 10:05 PM

I must be missing some thing about the having 4 tv's and wanting to watch live TV. Why would you need a tivo with 4 tuners if you are watching live on 4 different tv's. They would all have their own turner.

innocentfreak

10-27-2009, 11:27 PM

seriously- not being sarcastic- you think the need to rent 3 more cablecards for 3-6 bucks is a major motivator for people to get an HTPC and 3 extenders?

I think he was also including the cost of an extender versus another Tivo. For 139.99 you can get a used 360 from Gamestop which works as an extender if you go with the Windows 7 Media Center setup. This compared to a Tivo with monthly fees or a lifetime Tivo.

I must be missing some thing about the having 4 tv's and wanting to watch live TV. Why would you need a tivo with 4 tuners if you are watching live on 4 different tv's. They would all have their own turner.

With an extender setup, the idea is to have as many tuners as you need in one central location and then an extender in any room you need or want to watch tv. With the extender you can watch live tv or recordings. This also eliminates the need to manage independent season passes on multiple Tivos.

SNJpage1

10-28-2009, 12:05 AM

How do the extenders work? Over coax or one of those HDMI units that use 2 pieces of cat five?

innocentfreak

10-28-2009, 12:21 AM

With the 360 you can either buy the wireless adapter or use a wired network. Wired is definitely the recommendation for HD streaming. Pretty much the same setup to support MRV on Tivo. Then it is up to you how you connect them to your TV.

You could also grab Moca routers and connect that way I believe if you don't have a wired network currently.

RoyK

10-28-2009, 04:40 AM

How do the extenders work? Over coax or one of those HDMI units that use 2 pieces of cat five?

Over your ethernet network.

slowbiscuit

10-28-2009, 09:20 AM

seriously- not being sarcastic- you think the need to rent 3 more cablecards for 3-6 bucks is a major motivator for people to get an HTPC and 3 extenders?

Now if you are tossing in "additonal outlet fees" then maybe the cost gets to be more than 20 bucks savings a month. But how many people understand that?

There were actually plenty of examples of systems where buying a tivo was cheaper than renting a cable company DVR if calculated out for a few years- yet that never seemed to be a huge selling point.
Additional outlet fees can be a big expense. For Comcast in the ATL, if you want 4 HD STBs (not DVRs, mind you), you're looking at 4 x $9 for the boxes and 3 x $6 for the additional outlet fees every month.

Even if you're just renting cablecards for extra Tivos, you're still looking at $18/mo. in outlet fees for 4 sets. You don't have to pay this with a 4- or 6-tuner cablecard PC card, and yes most people won't get that. We're not most people.

I agree that buying a Tivo is cheaper than renting an HD DVR now because Comcast is charging $16/mo. for those, which means you can pay for the Tivo in 2-3 years. That's why I bought my Tivo, in addition to the fact that the Moto DVR SUCKS. But as you said no one seems to get that, or they just want the cableCo to take care of everything for them.

rtoledo

10-29-2009, 03:53 AM

exactly why you do not use a 300$ PC from office depot or some old PC lying around for HTPC. Hardware keeps getting cheaper but cable cards on win 7 will need decent hardware.

did any of you take the time to read the OCUR thread

http://thegreenbutton.com/forums/t/78488.aspx?PageIndex=1

here is the equipment beibg used by a beta tester

Windows 7 Ultimate x64 RTM
Advanced Entertainment Pack 2.0
Ceton 6-tuner MOCUR with SA M-Card
3x Cisco STA-1520 Tuning Adaptors
Gigabyte GA-965P-DS3 motherboard with Intel E4300CPU, 3GB DDR2
ATI Radeon HD4650 1GB
Seagate 1.5TB HD

:confused:

slowbiscuit

10-29-2009, 07:34 AM

RoyK

10-29-2009, 09:32 AM

Exactly. In fact, this $300 Compaq PC at Staples (http://www.staples.com/Compaq-Presario-CQ5210F-Desktop-PC/product_828021?cmArea=SEARCH) would be plenty powerful enough - it's got a dual-core AMD 2.7Ghz CPU, 3GB of RAM and a 500GB HD. All you'd need to add would be this $35 Radeon 4650 video card (http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16814131180) to get a roughly equivalent PC (minus the extra hard drive space) as the one used by thegreenbutton member.
The Compaq PC I linked has a PCI Express x16 slot for video, a PCI slot, and a couple of PCI-E x1 slots (which is what the Ceton plugs into).
I'm telling you, even cheap PCs have plenty of power to do this stuff nowadays.

Agreed. In fact the specs are almost exactly the same as the old desktop I use every day except my desktop has 2Gb memory & the $300 Compaq has 3Gb. Just for grins, after I installed Windows 7 (released version -- I've been running the RC), I pulled my Hauppage Dual tuner card from the new Media Center pc I built and put it in my desktop. Everything runs just super, thank you - analog & clear QAM HD -- using Windows 7 Media Center.

BTW Netflix, CBS Internet (recent TV Show Episodes), PBS Internet Shows and more are now an integral part of Media Center & more coming quickly.

Edit:
Forgot to mention that after I put the tuners back in the HTPC I can watch TV Recorded on the HTPC from my desktop machine - no extra hardware required. Just navigate to recorded TV in Media Center and click on what I want to watch.

ZeoTiVo

10-29-2009, 09:41 AM

I'm telling you, even cheap PCs have plenty of power to do this stuff nowadays.

ok, go cheap and be limited by the hardware you use. That is the good thing about HTPC - you can choose the footprint you want.

If I went HTPC it would not be to cheap out but to get the full power and features HTPC would afford me.

Neil 420

10-30-2009, 02:10 PM

...
I really don't see the cable companies as being strongly interested in four tuner models for a while - they make money on additional outlet fees at the moment, and I don't think they will charge additional outlet fees for an extender. Perhaps in a few years when things have settled down.

Have you heard of AT&T U-verse? They have a four tuner DVR and they charge $7/mo for each extender. I'm thinking about trying them, but I have a DirecTivo unit with a lifetime subscription that I don't want to lose if things don't work out with U-verse.

JimboG

10-30-2009, 02:32 PM

Have you heard of AT&T U-verse? They have a four tuner DVR and they charge $7/mo for each extender. I'm thinking about trying them, but I have a DirecTivo unit with a lifetime subscription that I don't want to lose if things don't work out with U-verse.

This isn't entirely true. While the AT&T DVR can handle up to 4 SD channels at a time, U-Verse is limited to only 2 overly compressed HD-lite channels at the same time for the entire household.:down:

Hi definition programming from DirecTv and from your local over the air stations should look significantly better than U-Verse's <6 Mbps MPEG-4 HD-lite channels.

bareyb

10-30-2009, 05:16 PM

This isn't entirely true. While the AT&T DVR can handle up to 4 SD channels at a time, U-Verse is limited to only 2 overly compressed HD-lite channels at the same time for the entire household.:down:

Hi definition programming from DirecTv and from your local over the air stations should look significantly better than U-Verse's <6 Mbps MPEG-4 HD-lite channels.

Yikes. Thanks for posting that... I've been trying to get the low down on Uverse for awhile now. I KNEW it was a little too good to be true. :D

MickeS

10-30-2009, 05:49 PM

Yikes. Thanks for posting that... I've been trying to get the low down on Uverse for awhile now. I KNEW it was a little too good to be true. :D

It used to be only ONE HD channel at a time, so at least with 2 simultaneous HD streams they have improved from before.

JimboG

10-30-2009, 07:14 PM

It used to be only ONE HD channel at a time, so at least with 2 simultaneous HD streams they have improved from before.

It used to be one HD-lite channel at a time, now it's two HD-lite channels at a time at 5 to 6 Mbps.

You can reduce bandwidth by up to 50% for the same level of perceived quality when you convert from MPEG-2 to MPEG-4. However, a 19.3 Mbps source signal compressed an additional 50% through cross-conversion still ought to be a lot higher than 5 or 5.5 Mbps. Something's got to give, and unfortunately that something is picture quality on U-Verse.

Depending on the size of your display and whether or not you have an HDTV, you may not notice as much trouble with U-Verse's picture quality. On a 50" 720p plasma at a buddy's house U-Verse was pretty ugly. I don't think it would look any better on my 100" 1080p front projection set up at home.:eek:

slowbiscuit

10-31-2009, 10:33 AM

The 2 HD stream limit for U-Verse is a non-starter for me. I often have 2 shows recording at the same time, which means no one could watch anything else in HD.

IMO they really screwed themselves by not running fiber to the home, at least for now. Or they're just going to be content to compete on price and number of channels and leave the mid-to-high end customers to everyone else.

wkearney99

10-31-2009, 12:40 PM

I'm hoping Tivo gets better VOD integration. A lot of the conflict issues can be eased by having convenient access to programming. Some OTA broadcasts are being repeated within a few days over on cable channels. You have to 'know' about this to take advantage of it, but it's better than having to wait weeks or months until the OTA channel gets around to running it again. I'd really like to see the Tivo be able to download these and then use it's BUILT IN PLAYER to watch them.

NO CRAPPY STREAMING CLIENT. Just let me download it and use the far superior built-in player. All the pieces are in place, RSS/Podcasts do this already. Just give us some integration in the user interface to make it easier to find and select them for downloading. That'd pretty much kill any need for additional tuners, for all but the most extreme edge cases.